Guild Wars 2

Rengaru.4730:

Thief in general is not be OP but Mug is, at least for a 10-point-trait.
Kit refinement was OP for a 10-point-trait and got nerfed (as in: “Pretty much erased from the game”)

So we have two OP 10-point-traits, one has been nerfed, the other one (even though it has been announced by the devs to be OP and to get a nerf) remains in the game, why?

Let me just say this. Mug deals 4k damage on a 45s cooldown. It has no added effects of anything anywhere… just damage… on a 45s cooldown.

Now I do understand that mug with cnd into a quick backstab is a really good chunk of burst and you want it nerfed. So how would someone like you react to lets say mug now deals 20% less damage but steal is now on a 30s base cool down? The burst is a lot less but now we have the profession mechanic on a decent cd. It might even get used more than once in a good fight! We’d be losing out on that burst but be getting a lot more utility back.

Sounds like a good trade off for both sides to me. Thief still has spike but not as insta-gib spike while getting the possibility to have more utility as so many other things rely on using the steal skill. The other side gets some breathing room but now even if they countered the initial burst, they have to take advantage of the situation. They can’t just bide their time b/c they’ve already won.

Well, I’m one of those people who thought that thieves were OP and decided to level one.

Turns out that they aren’t as OP as they seem (obviously), but they are still an amazing class. I can’t see where the ‘oh thief sucks now’ complaints come from.

What I hate is that countering a thief is so difficult compared to playing one. I use the D/P 0 30 30 10 0 build (Yishi’s build, but I came up with it independently) and honestly the only thing I need to do is press 5-2-1 and position properly, and most opponents will fall in a few rotations. I could do fancy stuff like immobilize from stealth with shortbow, into a poison field + dagger storm, but that’s really unnecessary.

Compare this to having to dodge my invisible backstab and predict where I am, not to mention all the ‘oops I messed up’ skills that the thief has, and an equally unskilled player has absolutely 0 chance.

I still get beaten by good players (sometimes), and it is a much fairer fight, but these are rather uncommon. Most mediocre players will die.

TLDR: Thieves are too good at owning bad people even if the thief sucks. That’s why people complain.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Fenrir.4237:

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.

Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.

Is true, I made a mistake there. Still don’t know why you try to make yourself out to be the jerk at every topic. seriously, please stop that… it’s very annoying. Also, one of the topics you quoted was me linking grenade barrage and me commenting on the skill itself.

Eh don’t mind him dude. He’s just going to pick at every little wrong thing you might of said and not even discuss the main point your post is trying to make. Did that with me too in the other thread. Your point still holds.

What “point”? He came into the conversation (comparing 100nades to BS burst), said something completely irrelevant to the conversation while pretending it was relevant, derailing the conversation, and then got into a long argument because he didn’t communicate the point well enough to know what he was talking about.

So, I will now put it back on track.
@Robert Hrouda: Why was 100nades held to a different standard than other bursts? What was so bad about it compared to other instagib bursts that you felt it should be removed while the others remain?

He answered that exact “question” in his original post. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at.

randomfightfan.4091:

Rengaru.4730:

Thief in general is not be OP but Mug is, at least for a 10-point-trait.
Kit refinement was OP for a 10-point-trait and got nerfed (as in: “Pretty much erased from the game”)

So we have two OP 10-point-traits, one has been nerfed, the other one (even though it has been announced by the devs to be OP and to get a nerf) remains in the game, why?

Let me just say this. Mug deals 4k damage on a 45s cooldown. It has no added effects of anything anywhere… just damage… on a 45s cooldown.

Now I do understand that mug with cnd into a quick backstab is a really good chunk of burst and you want it nerfed. So how would someone like you react to lets say mug now deals 20% less damage but steal is now on a 30s base cool down? The burst is a lot less but now we have the profession mechanic on a decent cd. It might even get used more than once in a good fight! We’d be losing out on that burst but be getting a lot more utility back.

Sounds like a good trade off for both sides to me. Thief still has spike but not as insta-gib spike while getting the possibility to have more utility as so many other things rely on using the steal skill. The other side gets some breathing room but now even if they countered the initial burst, they have to take advantage of the situation. They can’t just bide their time b/c they’ve already won.

from a thief……..i have to say i could live with that….they set us up so burst is = target one…kill him….go hide for 45 seconds. . . . .steal…assasins sig….shadow refuge….haste…..basiliks venom….blind powder….EVERY VENOM…. are all 45 secs and most are 60 seconds…ontop of that ONE CND is HALF>..yes 50% of our entire intiative…and id like to say about 40% of CnDs miss against good players…..so we get 2 skills and 2 big attacks then we have to hope and pray not to die in the next 6 seconds before we get another attack ready….

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

If you see this i’d love to hear you reply on the following. Also thanks for posting in here, really interesting to see a developers thoughts on thieves.

So something I think contributes to most of the hate is because in order for thieves to do that amount of damage, it requires a slightly low skill cap (as in it is not hard to get the hang of doing ) while counting it can require a slightly high skill cap (as in players need to know how to predict, dodging mechanics, timing, etc). This on top of you need to be actively paying attention to a thief in a battle (which can be hard on large scale battes in 8v8 or wvw).

Those two things I believe contribute to the hate they receive, and it wont stop imo. Everytime theres a new player, they’re going to jump into a battle and take 10K+ damage from a target. Now this new player lets say has 16k HP. In their eyes they just had someone take out more than half their hp “in seconds”, leading them to believe that thief is op followed by rage post on the forums.

SO thiefs can do that amount of damage and it is easy to counter, its a bit harder to counter for new players or in large scale battles, those are at least what I hear from people who get angry at thiefs. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think the thieves maybe should be slowed down in that dps build or perhaps make it easier to spot through animations what they are doing.

I agree with you that thieves aren’t insanely op in tPvP. However, they reiceve a lot of complains in spvp and WvW and I think should be looked at in some way.

This is probably the most well written post about why thieves wreck in wvw that I’ve seen so far. Only 1 comment. Why should the developers of the game balance the game around bad players when they could balance the game around what each class can do? They have it so any class can counter any class. It’s up to the player to make use of those skills. This is a skill based game so the player who is able to execute their skills better SHOULD win.

Granted there are the cases like this where the more skilled player can easily lose but that’s mostly due to gear. GC thieves will keep wrecking other glass cannons as long as they get the jump on them and the other player not responding correctly. Same is said for how bunker/ret guardians/eles will continue to wreck glass classes. Some is working as intended, some is being fixed with boon hate.

One quick question about your engi though. Why does no one complain about flame thrower 2? Seriously, that ability deals more direct damage than backstab and is yet another ability that deals that kind of spike damage at range.

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

Deified.7520:

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

If you see this i’d love to hear you reply on the following. Also thanks for posting in here, really interesting to see a developers thoughts on thieves.

So something I think contributes to most of the hate is because in order for thieves to do that amount of damage, it requires a slightly low skill cap (as in it is not hard to get the hang of doing ) while counting it can require a slightly high skill cap (as in players need to know how to predict, dodging mechanics, timing, etc). This on top of you need to be actively paying attention to a thief in a battle (which can be hard on large scale battes in 8v8 or wvw).

Those two things I believe contribute to the hate they receive, and it wont stop imo. Everytime theres a new player, they’re going to jump into a battle and take 10K+ damage from a target. Now this new player lets say has 16k HP. In their eyes they just had someone take out more than half their hp “in seconds”, leading them to believe that thief is op followed by rage post on the forums.

SO thiefs can do that amount of damage and it is easy to counter, its a bit harder to counter for new players or in large scale battles, those are at least what I hear from people who get angry at thiefs. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think the thieves maybe should be slowed down in that dps build or perhaps make it easier to spot through animations what they are doing.

I agree with you that thieves aren’t insanely op in tPvP. However, they reiceve a lot of complains in spvp and WvW and I think should be looked at in some way.

This is probably the most well written post about why thieves wreck in wvw that I’ve seen so far. Only 1 comment. Why should the developers of the game balance the game around bad players when they could balance the game around what each class can do? They have it so any class can counter any class. It’s up to the player to make use of those skills. This is a skill based game so the player who is able to execute their skills better SHOULD win.

Granted there are the cases like this where the more skilled player can easily lose but that’s mostly due to gear. GC thieves will keep wrecking other glass cannons as long as they get the jump on them and the other player not responding correctly. Same is said for how bunker/ret guardians/eles will continue to wreck glass classes. Some is working as intended, some is being fixed with boon hate.

One quick question about your engi though. Why does no one complain about flame thrower 2? Seriously, that ability deals more direct damage than backstab and is yet another ability that deals that kind of spike damage at range.

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

Here. I went into spvp and traited into a popular HgH flamethrower build. Berserker stats.

The one doing low amount of damage is with no added trait precision and only 15% increase to damage by trait. The picture showing greater damage done is with 200+ precision from traiting, and 18 or 19 stacks of might (which required me to pop all of my elixers two times) and 15% more damage. The first damage you (generally below 1000 damage) is when the ball goes through the enemy, while the greater amount of damage is the detonation. So it doesn’t really come close to what a backstab can do.

Deified.7520:

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

assuming that it’s the same in pve and wvw, it still works. tested it on mobs yesterday. Passes through for decent damage, explodes for about triple that damage. Not sure but I thought if you did it in melee range it’d be pretty much insta cast that combo though… just a theory

edit just saw the other post and that is wierd… saw so many situations where it was doing significantly higher in pve. Ability might act differently in pve but I really have no idea. It wasn’t a level 80 zone (just 50 something) so that also probably had some factoring as to why it had such a vastly different result.

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

assuming that it’s the same in pve and wvw, it still works. tested it on mobs yesterday. Passes through for decent damage, explodes for about triple that damage. Not sure but I thought if you did it in melee range it’d be pretty much insta cast that combo though… just a theory

Yeap i tested in spvp, it did work. But like you said you have to be up close in personal for it to be really effective. Still not too much though, usually hits (both attacks) 4-6k damage.

Deified.7520:

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

assuming that it’s the same in pve and wvw, it still works. tested it on mobs yesterday. Passes through for decent damage, explodes for about triple that damage. Not sure but I thought if you did it in melee range it’d be pretty much insta cast that combo though… just a theory

Yeap i tested in spvp, it did work. But like you said you have to be up close in personal for it to be really effective. Still not too much though, usually hits (both attacks) 4-6k damage.

wierd how in your screens the damage was so disgustingly low but in matches was 4-6k :S. But that does ring about on par for a backstab in pvp. Max 60 something crit dmg really hurts our bust so I’d imagine with 110% crit dmg you could do 9k. Still not worth it if you’re just using it for the burst. Better off doing something else.

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

assuming that it’s the same in pve and wvw, it still works. tested it on mobs yesterday. Passes through for decent damage, explodes for about triple that damage. Not sure but I thought if you did it in melee range it’d be pretty much insta cast that combo though… just a theory

Yeap i tested in spvp, it did work. But like you said you have to be up close in personal for it to be really effective. Still not too much though, usually hits (both attacks) 4-6k damage.

wierd how in your screens the damage was so disgustingly low but in matches was 4-6k :S. But that does ring about on par for a backstab in pvp. Max 60 something crit dmg really hurts our bust so I’d imagine with 110% crit dmg you could do 9k. Still not worth it if you’re just using it for the burst. Better off doing something else.

Hmm. I tried my best to recreate. I was using 2 pistols earlier, so i switched to a rifle and rampagers and full runes of rage. I was getting about 1k crits for the pass through of the ball, then 2,600 crits with the detonate. I think switched bererkers with the same other weapons and was able to get 1,600 crit on the pass thro and a 3,500 crit off the detonate. So that is the closest to what you experienced (this was all with 18 stacks of might). Best way to take down a flame engineer is to keep range or keep him disabled. Conditions can hurt them really hard too.

But yeah this is for thiefs, i’d love to talk about engineers more but thats for another thread.

Honestly, in terms of single target damage thieves really do take home the gold. The down side to thiefs is that they dont have a whole lot of AoE damage potential besides shortbow. Imo, they should tone down that sinlge target damage (may promote support builds since you wont risk being one shotted by a thief) and maybe boosting what other things thiefs have. Such as swords.

Deified.7520:

Honestly, in terms of single target damage thieves really do take home the gold. The down side to thiefs is that they dont have a whole lot of AoE damage potential besides shortbow. Imo, they should tone down that sinlge target damage (may promote support builds since you wont risk being one shotted by a thief) and maybe boosting what other things thiefs have. Such as swords.

I see why someone would want this but thief was designed for high single target dps so I don’t know why that should be taken away. Sword does need some love on the 3 abilities though… those start up and cast times…

The thing that really needs the most love though is pistol main hand. Good for bleeds, not good for anything else. With this being the only really good and reliable condition weapon (dagger is not a condition weapon), it really needs more than 1 easy to apply condition. The bleeds are constant but easily cleanse-able

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

randomfightfan.4091:

Deified.7520:

The flamethrower, in general, doesn’t do a whole lot of DPS. The #2 you see is a slow moving, medium range, easily spot glob. now in order for this to do damage you have to detonate it on top of the person, the AoE is not large. Now some players were able to wait for the #2 to go through the person (doing damage) then detonating it which did around 6-9k depending on your stats. However, I believe they fixed it to where you cant do that, not sure though.

assuming that it’s the same in pve and wvw, it still works. tested it on mobs yesterday. Passes through for decent damage, explodes for about triple that damage. Not sure but I thought if you did it in melee range it’d be pretty much insta cast that combo though… just a theory

Yeap i tested in spvp, it did work. But like you said you have to be up close in personal for it to be really effective. Still not too much though, usually hits (both attacks) 4-6k damage.

wierd how in your screens the damage was so disgustingly low but in matches was 4-6k :S. But that does ring about on par for a backstab in pvp. Max 60 something crit dmg really hurts our bust so I’d imagine with 110% crit dmg you could do 9k. Still not worth it if you’re just using it for the burst. Better off doing something else.

Before the recent patch you if you where quick you could double detonate it (similar to double shatter) making it deal its damage twice. It was fixed this patch, so its no longer a backstab but a facestab.

guys doing 17k+ damage on a low lvl player with 2000 armor
(yes, on my guardian at lvl 30 with lvl 30 greens i have SO much armor)
it’s more than obvious than he will receive 15k++ damage from a glass cannon

comparing a low level with an 80 full exotics is like comparing small apples with coconuts

Mug is too OP for a 10 point trait ? What about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bFKYaD3lrM ?

Fenrir.4237:

1500 range, like 2x the damage of Backstab without being in danger, pierces through targets up till 1500 range (so no limits of how many people it pierces through) above all that; can be done every frickin’ 10 secs(8 secs if traited for even!).

Have you ever played a warrior?
It can only damage the first 5 targets either way. And if your full gc spec happens to eat your own killshot, you are screwed. And reflects are not THAT rare on the battlefield.

From my experience in sPVP and WvW, the hardest thieves to fight were never the glass cannons. The thing with the glass cannon thief ganking people in one shot is that so many things can go wrong, and they will go wrong as soon as they attack a competent player. I have plenty of stories where a thief ambushed me, and ended up being beaten by something stupid like my Necro’s dagger auto attack or my Guardians symbol of wrath + whirling wrath, my mesmer’s shatter, or how many times an ambush thief ended up getting hilariously stuck in the web of turret control that my engineer has.

No, the hardest thieves I’ve ever fought were based around evasion and attrition. I’ve modeled my own thief off of a similar concept: carrion built trickster thief running d/d then shortbow. The strategy is to run up and use choking gas for AoE weakness, then caltrops + deathblossom on an enemy or group, combine that with things like Roll for Initiative and Steal to gain initiative, follow up with dagger storm if things are particularly hectec, and then after all of those long duration and high damaging bleeds are applied, I vanish in stealth and just wait for them to do their thing. Then afterward if they survive I engage with a combination of short bow and dagger evasion tactics, stacking more bleeds and poison as time goes on. The whole time that my opponent can’t see me or catch me is time that those bleeds just tick away their health.

Although I do feel ineffective at times, though. Being condition based, one good AoE cleanse can sometimes be the end of that strategy. I try to layer up poison + weakness + cripple as well as the bleeds, but on occasion there’s that one guardian who’ll just wreck the whole strategy.

i would just say that competitive fighting games……those with huge tournaments and sponsors have the opposite concept of “balanced” than devs in this game…..

i would waste my time to explain concepts that are more clearly explained in any of those games communities so i just suggest them to take some time to play a competitive FG.

It have much similarities and many ways where balance is broken.
Thief being the main offender….(not because its OP but because somehow it never takes in account defender skill UNLESS he have a counterbuild).

TLDR:
Anet balance = what NAMCO/CAPCOM etc says its to avoid to get balance.
Even if applied to different games

LordByron.8369:

i would just say that competitive fighting games……those with huge tournaments and sponsors have the opposite concept of “balanced” than devs in this game…..

i would waste my time to explain concepts that are more clearly explained in any of those games communities so i just suggest them to take some time to play a competitive FG.

It have much similarities and many ways where balance is broken.
Thief being the main offender….(not because its OP but because somehow it never takes in account defender skill UNLESS he have a counterbuild).

TLDR:
Anet balance = what NAMCO/CAPCOM etc says its to avoid to get balance.
Even if applied to different games

There is two ways to create balance.
Let’s think of class balance as some ugly, jagged rock, you found somewhere.

The first way, which is the safest but leads to an extremely boring meta, is to simply knock off any of the edges until you got a perfectly round stone. Everything that stands out a bit, everything, a class is really good at, gets nerfed to the ground, while everything a class is bad at, gets buffed like crazy.
This can lead to obscure scenarios, where a perfectly balanced class is utterly op. Let me explain, why: If the classes got no weaknesses and no strength, people will alyway go and tae the safest out of them all.

The second way, which poses some risks of creating horrible abominations, who wreck everything, is to take that stone and nicely shape out the edges to make it into something unique. You don’t want a ball, you want something with an actually distinct shape. YOu want to form it, so it can serve a specific purpose.

Let’s switch games for a brief example. Let’s talk about DotA/Dota2.
[spoiler]*In Dota, there is a hero, Lycantrope, which used to be so utterly broken, he was typically banned or firstpicked in most tournaments. With the addition of powerhouses like naga siren, that trend went back a bit, but let’s keep at it.
Lycan had a couple of strengths. First off, he could generate gold quickly while farming alone in some remote corner of the map, due to his summons being able to tank for him, secondly, he has abilities, which give him and all of his summons a huge boost.
The typical route would be to grab an item which gives a boost to all allies around him, then grab an item which gave him more summons and then just wreck the opponents base within a few seconds. (with a couple more rather common items up to 500 dps against structures with barely 1.6k hp) You look away for a couple of seconds, you slip up, make a mistake, half your base is gone. No need for anything like coordinated team pushes, the team pushed somewhere to keep the opponents occupied while lycan did his thing somewhere else.

What was the fix? How did he get nerfed? Did they nerf his unparalleled damage against immobile targets, which was easily around thrice the damage, any other hero could dish out with items worth twice as much? They did not.
The change was: – Reduced Lycan Wolves’ hp by 50%, increased Lycan Wolves’ Manacost by 20.
What did this accomplish? Lycans farm is now waaay slower, his window of opportunity smaller, thus it’s harder to pull off his thing, while he still can be a powerhouse when played properly(and especially only as an effort carried by the whole team).*[/spoiler]

Let’s get back to guild wars, and the question, how to balance.
Honestly, I don’t want rounded up things. I don’t want that flat and boring “it stands out, so we chop it off” kind of balancing. Let the devs give every class an unique shape, let the classes keep their high spikes etc within reason, BUT make it so, using these strong combos/rotations takes a bit of effort on the player’s side.
Make everything round and boring and you got something like Battlefield 3, where in competitive play, you sometimes used to have(past tense cause I don’t know, how it’s right now) teams running around with all players having only a single weapon, because that weapon was the most balanced one. Moderate damage, moderate range, moderate accuracy, moderate recoil, … It simply had no weaknesses and thus was the safest choice.
So explain please, what would be YOUR balance concept?
“it’s strong, so we nerf it”?
or “It’s strong and that’s why we don’t nerf it, but rather make[…]”?

With regards to the GW2 changes, some were well thought out, some weren’t. They were nowhere close to the finesse of, let’s say, Dota changelogs, but GW2 needs to appeal to way more casual players than Dota ever will and that’s why it’s fine to me either way.
I recognize, I am nowhere near the kind of person, they try to balance this game for anyway(if it was me, I’d prefer a setting where once you die, your character is gone for good lol)

edit: why the hell doesn’t the spoiler work?
test

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I consider things like “hundred nades bug” to be OP, where a single attack dos 26k damage in an AOE.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

I´m aware that balancing is not your part of the game but if this really gives an insight why the other devs took 100nades out of the game I´m really shocked: because it would really proof those balancing devs had no clue what 100nades was and what you had to do to make it work.

First part of the combo was grenade barrage from kit refinement and the trick here was that the engi had to stand DIRECTLY in the enemies model – half a meter away and the grenades would spread out and only half of them would be hitting the main-target. And usually it clearly takes more than a narrow window to directly move into another player and gives options enough to counter!

Second part was the toolbelt skill grenade barrage – which also needs the enemy to stand IN THE CENTRE of the AOE or half the grenades will miss!

And even on those TWO abilities together 26k damage is highly exaggerated (many builds added static discharge or pry bar while still getting not so high).

I´m not defending 100nades, because how it worked while standing inside another player was obviously a weakness of the engine. But this seems to give evidence that Anet has no clue about engineers and bases constant nerfs on thin air.

naphack.9346:

….

the issue is..

Take thief..

You need positioning, you need to carefully plan your opener, and then you need even luck maybe to hit target in the back.

So you basically need skill to max your opening damage, and that PvE wise could be even balanced.

Now lets bring that to pvp.

Lets think to an hypotethical thief class that can stealth, have 50% chances of 1shotting from stealth but if he misses he is dead.

Now seems even a bad class, it requires skill to set up the kill and luck to connect.

But when it happens this simply do not take in account target ability….you have the same chances to kill a newbie or a pro player.

If you see that as a fight of numbers could be balanced….but its not for the target….he has the right to influence the outcome of the battle…he is not a NPC!
This is first issue.

Then we have dev stetement about PREDICT thief attacks….
Again its all OK if the thief is a NPC with a fixed pattern.

Its not, its a PLAYER that can FAKE a stealth usual chain attack (or escape) making it again a matter of LUCK and not skill.

Classic example is thief using shadow refuge and running away with other stealth skills.

So despite this situation could be even non viable or strongly against thieves, its not balanced…..
Its just randomic at best, but takes away the ability of one of the 2 contendents to influence with skill the outcome of the fight.

This is why thief says “hey its hard for us to use our spike damage on you so its balanced!” while Others “hey how can be balanced if i cannot REACT (not predict)”.

So nerfing is not the right road to go, changing its the one….

P.S: same concept works for 100nades see above ^^^

P.P.S. example…if i was a dev i would make most infamous Attacks to deal dmg as a % of opponent health….so they would have the same effect on tanks and GC.

Rengaru.4730:

Shemsu.8721:

If you see him use CnD via the very obvious animation, your not predicting, your reacting

…because you are predicting a combo.
Why would you dodge a random, ranged CnD if you don’t expect the thief to close the gap with a shadowstep.

I swear, the thief subforum is becoming more like hotjoin every day, with random thieves poping up spaming the same arguments over and over like a Heartseeker.

lol,

that last statement is awesome.

LordByron.8369:

naphack.9346:

….

the issue is..

Take thief..

You need positioning, you need to carefully plan your opener, and then you need even luck maybe to hit target in the back.

So you basically need skill to max your opening damage, and that PvE wise could be even balanced.

Now lets bring that to pvp.

Lets think to an hypotethical thief class that can stealth, have 50% chances of 1shotting from stealth but if he misses he is dead.

Now seems even a bad class, it requires skill to set up the kill and luck to connect.

But when it happens this simply do not take in account target ability….you have the same chances to kill a newbie or a pro player.

If you see that as a fight of numbers could be balanced….but its not for the target….he has the right to influence the outcome of the battle…he is not a NPC!
This is first issue.

Then we have dev stetement about PREDICT thief attacks….
Again its all OK if the thief is a NPC with a fixed pattern.

Its not, its a PLAYER that can FAKE a stealth usual chain attack (or escape) making it again a matter of LUCK and not skill.

Classic example is thief using shadow refuge and running away with other stealth skills.

So despite this situation could be even non viable or strongly against thieves, its not balanced…..
Its just randomic at best, but takes away the ability of one of the 2 contendents to influence with skill the outcome of the fight.

This is why thief says “hey its hard for us to use our spike damage on you so its balanced!” while Others “hey how can be balanced if i cannot REACT (not predict)”.

So nerfing is not the right road to go, changing its the one….

P.S: same concept works for 100nades see above ^^^

P.P.S. example…if i was a dev i would make most infamous Attacks to deal dmg as a % of opponent health….so they would have the same effect on tanks and GC.

+1.

I especially agree with the comment about that dev that made few post, favoritism much?

Travlane.5948:

randomfightfan.4091:

Rengaru.4730:

Thief in general is not be OP but Mug is, at least for a 10-point-trait.
Kit refinement was OP for a 10-point-trait and got nerfed (as in: “Pretty much erased from the game”)

So we have two OP 10-point-traits, one has been nerfed, the other one (even though it has been announced by the devs to be OP and to get a nerf) remains in the game, why?

Let me just say this. Mug deals 4k damage on a 45s cooldown. It has no added effects of anything anywhere… just damage… on a 45s cooldown.

Now I do understand that mug with cnd into a quick backstab is a really good chunk of burst and you want it nerfed. So how would someone like you react to lets say mug now deals 20% less damage but steal is now on a 30s base cool down? The burst is a lot less but now we have the profession mechanic on a decent cd. It might even get used more than once in a good fight! We’d be losing out on that burst but be getting a lot more utility back.

Sounds like a good trade off for both sides to me. Thief still has spike but not as insta-gib spike while getting the possibility to have more utility as so many other things rely on using the steal skill. The other side gets some breathing room but now even if they countered the initial burst, they have to take advantage of the situation. They can’t just bide their time b/c they’ve already won.

from a thief……..i have to say i could live with that….they set us up so burst is = target one…kill him….go hide for 45 seconds. . . . .steal…assasins sig….shadow refuge….haste…..basiliks venom….blind powder….EVERY VENOM…. are all 45 secs and most are 60 seconds…ontop of that ONE CND is HALF>..yes 50% of our entire intiative…and id like to say about 40% of CnDs miss against good players…..so we get 2 skills and 2 big attacks then we have to hope and pray not to die in the next 6 seconds before we get another attack ready….

hmmmm you make him a zerk build to prove a point? can you tell me why a zerk build you made has over 21k hp? heh…nice try bud

Robert Hrouda.1327:

so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay.

The same thing can be said about AoE skills. All players have to do is realise they are standing in a big red circle and should expect it to damage them.

But instead Anet limited AoE skills to only affect 5 players, even if 80 players stand in it!

So on one side devs are saying people should learn how to keep an eye out for skills, whilst at the same time giving in and putting a limit on AoE skills so zergs can be lazy.

Makes absolutely no sense at all!

I tried staying in the AoE circles. The result was that everyone else left them and I got killed a split second later. I don’t think the cap has much to do with this.

LordByron.8369:

naphack.9346:

….

the issue is..

Take thief..

You need positioning, you need to carefully plan your opener, and then you need even luck maybe to hit target in the back.

So you basically need skill to max your opening damage, and that PvE wise could be even balanced.

Now lets bring that to pvp.

Lets think to an hypotethical thief class that can stealth, have 50% chances of 1shotting from stealth but if he misses he is dead.

Now seems even a bad class, it requires skill to set up the kill and luck to connect.

But when it happens this simply do not take in account target ability….you have the same chances to kill a newbie or a pro player.

If you see that as a fight of numbers could be balanced….but its not for the target….he has the right to influence the outcome of the battle…he is not a NPC!
This is first issue.

Then we have dev stetement about PREDICT thief attacks….
Again its all OK if the thief is a NPC with a fixed pattern.

Its not, its a PLAYER that can FAKE a stealth usual chain attack (or escape) making it again a matter of LUCK and not skill.

Classic example is thief using shadow refuge and running away with other stealth skills.

So despite this situation could be even non viable or strongly against thieves, its not balanced…..
Its just randomic at best, but takes away the ability of one of the 2 contendents to influence with skill the outcome of the fight.

This is why thief says “hey its hard for us to use our spike damage on you so its balanced!” while Others “hey how can be balanced if i cannot REACT (not predict)”.

So nerfing is not the right road to go, changing its the one….

P.S: same concept works for 100nades see above ^^^

P.P.S. example…if i was a dev i would make most infamous Attacks to deal dmg as a % of opponent health….so they would have the same effect on tanks and GC.

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo, and it’s not uncommon for it to require heartseeker to finish the kill. It’s also not impossible to react to the Mug+CnD and avoid the Backstab component. The combo runs the balance of being avoidable but not easily avoidable. And more avoidable and it runs the risk of becoming useless. And less and it becomes truely op’d.

They also want to give people a chance in zergs. AOE could be too powerful if everything just got owned by it. All you would need is 5 ele’s to hold a choke.

Just like they want people to have a chance with burst thief, and they do. All takes is hitting 1 button to stop burst thief.

Omaris Mortuus Est.2738:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay.

The same thing can be said about AoE skills. All players have to do is realise they are standing in a big red circle and should expect it to damage them.

But instead Anet limited AoE skills to only affect 5 players, even if 80 players stand in it!

So on one side devs are saying people should learn how to keep an eye out for skills, whilst at the same time giving in and putting a limit on AoE skills so zergs can be lazy.

Makes absolutely no sense at all!

i agree…i think they should dmg more than 5….and perhaps even all…that said….2 100 nades engineers could kill 100 people in less than 2 seconds if they were stacked? see the problem man? i think should be around 8 people each. zerg v zerg u have dozens of AOE on the ground at the same time…thats alot of dmg. if u wanna do what ur saying….cool…but we need a true healer if thats the case

I think 10 people for AoE damage is about the right number.

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

Rememebr guys, this thread is for thieves. If you really want to talk about 100nades and SD builds for engineers, go to that forum. You’ll get more than an acceptable amount of answers to your questions.

The problem i have with thieves is that the whole way to counter a thief is dependent almost entirely on player skill. No other class in the game (besides mesmers) relies entirely on player skill to counter.

Stealth – Countering = predicting. No way to bring people out of stealth
The “one shot” combo – Countering = predicting, knowing when to dodge, etc

In any game where there is competitive PvP, if there are some classes/heroes that rely entirely on the enemy players ability to play the game well to counter and then theres other classes that have hard counters (counters that are in game), then i creates an imbalance because not all players good.

Deified.7520:

In any game where there is competitive PvP, if there are some classes/heroes that rely entirely on the enemy players ability to play the game well to counter and then theres other classes that have hard counters (counters that are in game), then i creates an imbalance because not all players good.

But that in itself causes things to overall balance out in a very polarized way, as while against lower skilled players that class is powerful once it goes against skilled players it becomes almost powerless, compared to the ones that have button counters that are strong against lower skilled simply due to the skill difference and strong against the skilled players due to the more robust and static mechanics.

As there is no one that is totally hard countered by a single button, theres moves that can inconvenience people like say corrupt boons against a guardian but then the guardian has ways of defending against that with condition removal and reapplication of boons quickly, while a thief whos still getting hit while stealthed and being burst down instantly themselves has no way to prevent that other than try to become a better player than the enemy who in return just needs to get better themselves so on and so forth.

Deified.7520:

Rememebr guys, this thread is for thieves. If you really want to talk about 100nades and SD builds for engineers, go to that forum. You’ll get more than an acceptable amount of answers to your questions.

The problem i have with thieves is that the whole way to counter a thief is dependent almost entirely on player skill. No other class in the game (besides mesmers) relies entirely on player skill to counter.

Stealth – Countering = predicting. No way to bring people out of stealth
The “one shot” combo – Countering = predicting, knowing when to dodge, etc

In any game where there is competitive PvP, if there are some classes/heroes that rely entirely on the enemy players ability to play the game well to counter and then theres other classes that have hard counters (counters that are in game), then i creates an imbalance because not all players good.

you must be new to the game i take it…..any push back skill…any interup skill all push people out of shadow refuge…CND is easy to dodge….u know a thief is in stealth for 3-4 secs….try running at the thief then dodging backwards at the 2.5 second mark. there are plent of ways you can mix it up…if a thief misses CND thats half of his intiative gone…then he only has auto attack….also use block or some kind of anti cc for his openier….if u can survive the first 5 seconds…. u have the next 50 or so seconds to really do your dmg before all his traits cool down. thief is very easy to avoid.. its been over 5 or 6 weeks since ive been backstabbed in WVW. i get stoned sometimes but then again i play a thief. if im on my guardian…it never works lol i embarass him …i dont kill him but he runs away :P….also use retaliation….use fire….and blind is a beotch for thieves bc they waste oh so valuable intiative. Cant get mad at you for not knowing but now u know and u can stop complaining. if u wanna complain go yell at mesmers phantasm build which has just as much dmg ast hieves and all they do is make phantams and run in a cirlce/dodge while the AI does all the work….so much talent there :P nubs lol

oh..P.S. —-— people much more rather have a game where skill is more prevalent than character choice. why dont you just go to a turn bases ADnD game if u hate the fact that new games require skill to play/defend. cmon thats just a silly thing to say. ive seen rangers kick thieves’ arses ….that said….should they buff the hell out of thieves and make the average player good and make the good player godly? get real lol

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

It’s also a thousand times easier to see since Magnet takes forever to cast and Net Shot is blatantly obvious, then the engineer still has to walk into your model, and its AoE is pathetically small, where it will only knock out a second person if they’re practically standing inside of the target as well, and if they’re that close to a player cc’d by an engy then they aren’t smart enough to live anyway.
Granted, it DOES have a shorter reload time.
If you’re going to try to shoot down comparisons at least be correct.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Hey folks, I figured I would swoop in and drop a reply.

I remember playing my ranger in PvP and getting “2-spammed” by a D/D thief and dying in about 3-5 seconds. I had no idea how to stop them, and they seemed intent on finding my heart. I couldn’t even hit the bugger since he blinded me and pulled a stun off. I remember thinking to myself “Man, my ranger couldn’t do 19k damage in five seconds. Thief OP!” Until I actually went and made such a thief out of spite. I’ll admit right now I am not much a thief player… Only about level 30 in PvE, and about 10 games played as thief in SPvP – but in those few games I would just dominate people. Load up the +% damage traits, stealth, and then it’s just a matter of a few button presses. But in playing that thief, I learned how to counter that thief. Bring a stun breaker, a condi removal, some CC, and know how/when to dodge roll. It doesn’t work all the time, especially if my stunbreaker is on CD from a previous fight (Pistol Whip is rough!), but if a thief gets the jump on me I have about 2 seconds to react, and then I make the thief pay.
I consider things like “hundred nades bug” to be OP, where a single attack dos 26k damage in an AOE. Sacrificing so much versatility/defense to be a glass cannon spiker is not OP, it’s a build. That build is just really really good at spiking, and it overpowers almost any other build the thief can bring to deal damage. There are a few builds you don’t see often with thieves that are pretty good, because players weigh efficiency in murdering something quickly to be greater than surviving a drawn out encounter, so they’ll bring the most efficient build to accomplish that… which in my experience has been the D/D heart seeker. There’s some neat shadow-step steal/pistolwhip/quickness/unload type builds out there, but that D/D thief overpowers and obscures the potential for other builds to rise up. In my eyes they could use some more versatility… I know that when I play my ranger I can many different things at once – I have a large tool box of sometimes very useful tools, and that makes me harder to bring down since I am not so easily countered.

Well this is longer than I was thinking it would be, and now I have subjected the thief forum to my punctuation, so I better stop. Also I’ll admit to being little on edge in this forum… I’m a ranger in the middle of a thieves den!

I can agree with that, needs more usefull builds for thief, instead of d/d backstab & Heartseeker. Its boring that so many people run it and the other builds dont even come close.

Because frankly I don’t care how OP other classes might be or how OP ppl think they are, I just hate to see so much options for builds within the classes yet see 90% run with the same build because its obviously the best pick 90% of the time.

Having a lot of diversity and not knowing what kind of build you will encounter from your opponent is so much more fun than: oh another backstab thief, or another guardian with uber tanky specs. I think warrior works the best that way because you sometimes see a condition axe build (not often enough though but i guess conditions arent really the way 2 go imo), and then you have the insane GS or rifle crit builds and on the other hand sword or axe + shield defense with stun and a nice hammer 2 pop that CC and just rambo into a group and bashing them down with tankyness.

I really miss that diversity in most classes because its not viable for them and it takes a lot of the fun out of playing the classes.

Travlane.5948:

Deified.7520:

Rememebr guys, this thread is for thieves. If you really want to talk about 100nades and SD builds for engineers, go to that forum. You’ll get more than an acceptable amount of answers to your questions.

The problem i have with thieves is that the whole way to counter a thief is dependent almost entirely on player skill. No other class in the game (besides mesmers) relies entirely on player skill to counter.

Stealth – Countering = predicting. No way to bring people out of stealth
The “one shot” combo – Countering = predicting, knowing when to dodge, etc

In any game where there is competitive PvP, if there are some classes/heroes that rely entirely on the enemy players ability to play the game well to counter and then theres other classes that have hard counters (counters that are in game), then i creates an imbalance because not all players good.

you must be new to the game i take it…..any push back skill…any interup skill all push people out of shadow refuge…CND is easy to dodge….u know a thief is in stealth for 3-4 secs….try running at the thief then dodging backwards at the 2.5 second mark. there are plent of ways you can mix it up…if a thief misses CND thats half of his intiative gone…then he only has auto attack….also use block or some kind of anti cc for his openier….if u can survive the first 5 seconds…. u have the next 50 or so seconds to really do your dmg before all his traits cool down. thief is very easy to avoid.. its been over 5 or 6 weeks since ive been backstabbed in WVW. i get stoned sometimes but then again i play a thief. if im on my guardian…it never works lol i embarass him …i dont kill him but he runs away :P….also use retaliation….use fire….and blind is a beotch for thieves bc they waste oh so valuable intiative. Cant get mad at you for not knowing but now u know and u can stop complaining. if u wanna complain go yell at mesmers phantasm build which has just as much dmg ast hieves and all they do is make phantams and run in a cirlce/dodge while the AI does all the work….so much talent there :P nubs lol

oh..P.S. —-— people much more rather have a game where skill is more prevalent than character choice. why dont you just go to a turn bases ADnD game if u hate the fact that new games require skill to play/defend. cmon thats just a silly thing to say. ive seen rangers kick thieves’ arses ….that said….should they buff the hell out of thieves and make the average player good and make the good player godly? get real lol

But thieves have other stealth alternatives. You’re right, someone can knock people out of shadow ref, but what if you dont make it in time? Everytime a thief stealths, he gets an immediate first strike advantage on his opponent. Any player whose played competitive pvp games knows that the first strike advantage can change a game completely. Now making a class that revolve around constantly getting this first strike advantage, any player who will come over to this game from another will immediately call OP. Hence why we have the issue of all the thief complaints. If each class gets one skill that if they hit a thief or someone invisible with, it pulls them out, there would probably be 50% less complaints about thiefs. Now of course they really need to buff the other theif builds before doing this.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

It’s also a thousand times easier to see since Magnet takes forever to cast and Net Shot is blatantly obvious, then the engineer still has to walk into your model, and its AoE is pathetically small, where it will only knock out a second person if they’re practically standing inside of the target as well, and if they’re that close to a player cc’d by an engy then they aren’t smart enough to live anyway.
Granted, it DOES have a shorter reload time.
If you’re going to try to shoot down comparisons at least be correct.

Magnet doesn’t need to be used. Net Shot can be used by any engineer and is not a que for 100nades, it’s on a 10 second cooldown and can basically be spammed. That doesn’t even compare to 40-45s cooldown on steal, 45s cooldown on basilisk venom, 45s cooldown on assassin’s signet. The AOE is big enough to have uses. If you down a player in a 1v2 and the other player tries to res the downed player, 100nades would basically finish the job because you’re putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on both where a GC burst backstab thief would be kittened. The video posted earlier is a perfect showcase.

Deified.7520:

If each class gets one skill that if they hit a thief or someone invisible with, it pulls them out, there would probably be 50% less complaints about thiefs. Now of course they really need to buff the other theif builds before doing this.

You’d also have a lot less thieves, because why would anyone play cannon fodder profession that has next to no usable defense in any situation?

Dasorine.1964:

Deified.7520:

If each class gets one skill that if they hit a thief or someone invisible with, it pulls them out, there would probably be 50% less complaints about thiefs. Now of course they really need to buff the other theif builds before doing this.

You’d also have a lot less thieves, because why would anyone play cannon fodder profession that has next to no usable defense in any situation?

exactly…u have to remember…invis….is a thieves ONE AND ONLY DEFENSE> :P also…. to the person above saying that 90% play D/D backstab b/c its the best build….obv u have never seen d/p p/d s/d and s/p builds bc they are ALL better than d/d backstab. d/d backstab is the highest burst but also worst dmg bc if u miss…u ahve to run…if u suceed…u ahve to run….if u get blocked….u have to run….and wait for 60 secs on skills to recharge to have any shot at trying again….no offense but if u dont have many thousands of kills on a thief…u really cant say what the best build is. best 1 v 1 builds are d/p and s/d hands down. how much dmg u think a s/d build can do with 2 consecutive stuns for 1.5 seconds and 3 seconds? u just gonna chill for 4.5 seconds and take a beating :P not going to tell u what u need to do that bc its prolly garbage since 90% of thieves dont run it right? Cmon bro think outside the box. d/d is the easiest to play not the best

2 stuns on S/D? There’s a daze and immobilize and the daze is four secs now due to the nerf.

what 4 sec daze are u talkin about?

2 secs from tactical strike 1 sec from steal….with proper boosts its a total of 4.5

Travlane.5948:

Dasorine.1964:

Deified.7520:

If each class gets one skill that if they hit a thief or someone invisible with, it pulls them out, there would probably be 50% less complaints about thiefs. Now of course they really need to buff the other theif builds before doing this.

You’d also have a lot less thieves, because why would anyone play cannon fodder profession that has next to no usable defense in any situation?

exactly…u have to remember…invis….is a thieves ONE AND ONLY DEFENSE> :P also…. to the person above saying that 90% play D/D backstab b/c its the best build….obv u have never seen d/p p/d s/d and s/p builds bc they are ALL better than d/d backstab. d/d backstab is the highest burst but also worst dmg bc if u miss…u ahve to run…if u suceed…u ahve to run….if u get blocked….u have to run….and wait for 60 secs on skills to recharge to have any shot at trying again….no offense but if u dont have many thousands of kills on a thief…u really cant say what the best build is. best 1 v 1 builds are d/p and s/d hands down. how much dmg u think a s/d build can do with 2 consecutive stuns for 1.5 seconds and 3 seconds? u just gonna chill for 4.5 seconds and take a beating :P not going to tell u what u need to do that bc its prolly garbage since 90% of thieves dont run it right? Cmon bro think outside the box. d/d is the easiest to play not the best

Well, if you play a sword thief, positioning is a major defense and stealth is your “oh kitten gtfo.” But no love for sword thiefs qq. I used to run a semi-perma quickness build
cause that it was good way to make pistol whip viable before march 26th but now…
edit: ah forgot this thread also includes WvW thieves that can still do permadaze with s/d.

99.9% of Sword thievs arent quick thinkers and just cant handle the build. but the ones that can just own. ask me in game ill be happy to duel u if we are in wvw. (spvp isnt a linear debuff with the dmg reduction so thieves get killed there unless condi builds) anyway yeah pistol whip sucks! it has less damage per second than auto attack and thats a fact. 90% of the time you dont get past the 2nd swing before they dodge

Travlane.5948:

Dasorine.1964:

Deified.7520:

If each class gets one skill that if they hit a thief or someone invisible with, it pulls them out, there would probably be 50% less complaints about thiefs. Now of course they really need to buff the other theif builds before doing this.

You’d also have a lot less thieves, because why would anyone play cannon fodder profession that has next to no usable defense in any situation?

exactly…u have to remember…invis….is a thieves ONE AND ONLY DEFENSE> :P also…. to the person above saying that 90% play D/D backstab b/c its the best build….obv u have never seen d/p p/d s/d and s/p builds bc they are ALL better than d/d backstab. d/d backstab is the highest burst but also worst dmg bc if u miss…u ahve to run…if u suceed…u ahve to run….if u get blocked….u have to run….and wait for 60 secs on skills to recharge to have any shot at trying again….no offense but if u dont have many thousands of kills on a thief…u really cant say what the best build is. best 1 v 1 builds are d/p and s/d hands down. how much dmg u think a s/d build can do with 2 consecutive stuns for 1.5 seconds and 3 seconds? u just gonna chill for 4.5 seconds and take a beating :P not going to tell u what u need to do that bc its prolly garbage since 90% of thieves dont run it right? Cmon bro think outside the box. d/d is the easiest to play not the best

I’m not gonna lie, you’re right with the stealth being only defense. Hence why I said they need to buff the other things.

Things I’d like thieves defense revolve around

Evading/dodging
Blinds
Movement/mobility (like those skills that flip around to a person side)

I hate the classic class that does lots of damage and goes stealth, so uncreative.

Please do not make thieves defense revolve around blinds, unless we are going to get rid of unshakeable. having your defense only work 10% of the time would be pointless

Deified.7520:

Travlane.5948:

Dasorine.1964:

Deified.7520:

If each class gets one skill that if they hit a thief or someone invisible with, it pulls them out, there would probably be 50% less complaints about thiefs. Now of course they really need to buff the other theif builds before doing this.

You’d also have a lot less thieves, because why would anyone play cannon fodder profession that has next to no usable defense in any situation?

exactly…u have to remember…invis….is a thieves ONE AND ONLY DEFENSE> :P also…. to the person above saying that 90% play D/D backstab b/c its the best build….obv u have never seen d/p p/d s/d and s/p builds bc they are ALL better than d/d backstab. d/d backstab is the highest burst but also worst dmg bc if u miss…u ahve to run…if u suceed…u ahve to run….if u get blocked….u have to run….and wait for 60 secs on skills to recharge to have any shot at trying again….no offense but if u dont have many thousands of kills on a thief…u really cant say what the best build is. best 1 v 1 builds are d/p and s/d hands down. how much dmg u think a s/d build can do with 2 consecutive stuns for 1.5 seconds and 3 seconds? u just gonna chill for 4.5 seconds and take a beating :P not going to tell u what u need to do that bc its prolly garbage since 90% of thieves dont run it right? Cmon bro think outside the box. d/d is the easiest to play not the best

I’m not gonna lie, you’re right with the stealth being only defense. Hence why I said they need to buff the other things.

Things I’d like thieves defense revolve around

Evading/dodging
Blinds
Movement/mobility (like those skills that flip around to a person side)

I hate the classic class that does lots of damage and goes stealth, so uncreative.

if u use x/p you hav SO MANY BLINDS
if u use s/x you have SO MANY EVADES
if you usex/d you have SO MANY INVIS

the real problem for thieves revolves in the fact we have medium armor that gets hit like its light armor and ALSO have no dmg reduction or defensive skills. its all or nothing….evade or die. invis or die. we need maybe a 20% boost on defense or a 15 % decrease in total incoming dmg to hav a chance at being a viable class to pick in zerg builds.

Deified.7520:

Things I’d like thieves defense revolve around

Evading/dodging
Blinds
Movement/mobility (like those skills that flip around to a person side)

Yes, thief needs some evade on a few weapon skills, maybe even one on a heal.

And a nice blinding skill would be good too, like an small AoE blind for 4 seconds.

And skills that will move your character. Like 450-range leaps for 3 initiative or some kind of movement signet would be nice too. Or some kind of teleport skill, they should call them darknesswalk or shadejump or something like that…

Wait a second…

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

It’s also a thousand times easier to see since Magnet takes forever to cast and Net Shot is blatantly obvious, then the engineer still has to walk into your model, and its AoE is pathetically small, where it will only knock out a second person if they’re practically standing inside of the target as well, and if they’re that close to a player cc’d by an engy then they aren’t smart enough to live anyway.
Granted, it DOES have a shorter reload time.
If you’re going to try to shoot down comparisons at least be correct.

Magnet doesn’t need to be used. Net Shot can be used by any engineer and is not a que for 100nades, it’s on a 10 second cooldown and can basically be spammed. That doesn’t even compare to 40-45s cooldown on steal, 45s cooldown on basilisk venom, 45s cooldown on assassin’s signet. The AOE is big enough to have uses. If you down a player in a 1v2 and the other player tries to res the downed player, 100nades would basically finish the job because you’re putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on both where a GC burst backstab thief would be kittened. The video posted earlier is a perfect showcase.

Any GC would more or less destroy someone immobilized for 2.6s if they didn’t use something defensive, nothing particularly special about 100nades there. Net Shot’s short cooldown is because the attack is so slow and obvious, meaning if it’s not at short range you should easily avoid it. If it’s at point blank then it’s basically unavoidable, which Steal has except at 900 range. And if you get Net Shotted and the engineer closes in you’re already sure Blunderbuss, Pry Bar, or Jump Shot is forthcoming anyway, so even if they aren’t 100nades you’d sure as kitten better be doing something to get out of there.
And barring a GS guardian pulling a few people in, being used against someone getting rezzed is about the only circumstance you’ll ever hit more than 1 non-moronic person with it.

So, again: 100nades deleted, BS remains. Unjustifiable.