Guild Wars 2

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

It’s also a thousand times easier to see since Magnet takes forever to cast and Net Shot is blatantly obvious, then the engineer still has to walk into your model, and its AoE is pathetically small, where it will only knock out a second person if they’re practically standing inside of the target as well, and if they’re that close to a player cc’d by an engy then they aren’t smart enough to live anyway.
Granted, it DOES have a shorter reload time.
If you’re going to try to shoot down comparisons at least be correct.

Magnet doesn’t need to be used. Net Shot can be used by any engineer and is not a que for 100nades, it’s on a 10 second cooldown and can basically be spammed. That doesn’t even compare to 40-45s cooldown on steal, 45s cooldown on basilisk venom, 45s cooldown on assassin’s signet. The AOE is big enough to have uses. If you down a player in a 1v2 and the other player tries to res the downed player, 100nades would basically finish the job because you’re putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on both where a GC burst backstab thief would be kittened. The video posted earlier is a perfect showcase.

Any GC would more or less destroy someone immobilized for 2.6s if they didn’t use something defensive, nothing particularly special about 100nades there. Net Shot’s short cooldown is because the attack is so slow and obvious, meaning if it’s not at short range you should easily avoid it. If it’s at point blank then it’s basically unavoidable, which Steal has except at 900 range. And if you get Net Shotted and the engineer closes in you’re already sure Blunderbuss, Pry Bar, or Jump Shot is forthcoming anyway, so even if they aren’t 100nades you’d sure as kitten better be doing something to get out of there.
And barring a GS guardian pulling a few people in, being used against someone getting rezzed is about the only circumstance you’ll ever hit more than 1 non-moronic person with it.

So, again: 100nades deleted, BS remains. Unjustifiable.

You don’t get it, do you? Backstab damage doesn’t come near 100nades in most cases. You can’t counter a oneshot. Backstab doesn’t oneshot anything in 80 exotic. It’s the combination of skills that makes it lethal and counterable at the same time.

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

It’s also a thousand times easier to see since Magnet takes forever to cast and Net Shot is blatantly obvious, then the engineer still has to walk into your model, and its AoE is pathetically small, where it will only knock out a second person if they’re practically standing inside of the target as well, and if they’re that close to a player cc’d by an engy then they aren’t smart enough to live anyway.
Granted, it DOES have a shorter reload time.
If you’re going to try to shoot down comparisons at least be correct.

Magnet doesn’t need to be used. Net Shot can be used by any engineer and is not a que for 100nades, it’s on a 10 second cooldown and can basically be spammed. That doesn’t even compare to 40-45s cooldown on steal, 45s cooldown on basilisk venom, 45s cooldown on assassin’s signet. The AOE is big enough to have uses. If you down a player in a 1v2 and the other player tries to res the downed player, 100nades would basically finish the job because you’re putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on both where a GC burst backstab thief would be kittened. The video posted earlier is a perfect showcase.

Any GC would more or less destroy someone immobilized for 2.6s if they didn’t use something defensive, nothing particularly special about 100nades there. Net Shot’s short cooldown is because the attack is so slow and obvious, meaning if it’s not at short range you should easily avoid it. If it’s at point blank then it’s basically unavoidable, which Steal has except at 900 range. And if you get Net Shotted and the engineer closes in you’re already sure Blunderbuss, Pry Bar, or Jump Shot is forthcoming anyway, so even if they aren’t 100nades you’d sure as kitten better be doing something to get out of there.
And barring a GS guardian pulling a few people in, being used against someone getting rezzed is about the only circumstance you’ll ever hit more than 1 non-moronic person with it.

So, again: 100nades deleted, BS remains. Unjustifiable.

You don’t get it, do you? Backstab damage doesn’t come near 100nades in most cases. You can’t counter a oneshot. Backstab doesn’t oneshot anything in 80 exotic. It’s the combination of skills that makes it lethal and counterable at the same time.

I mean on one hand 100nades does hit harder than the steal CnD backstab combo, but your logic is kind of odd.

100nades (as far as I can tell; never played an engineer) requires a stationary target or is completely useless.

Therefore it’s also a combination of skills that include netshot, that allowed an engineer to do such massive damage. In fact it’s so easy to counter: once you see an engineer immobilize you and walk near you, just use some defensive move (same as how you counter burst thieves!) and their damage is negated.

The thief combo of steal CnD backstab might not be “1 hit” since it is 3 separate attacks, but those 3 attacks hit almost instantaneously.

If anything, it was unbalanced because it did way too much damage. Not because ’it’s uncounterable’. (Edit: This is referring to 100nades)

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Humorless.1573:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

It’s also a thousand times easier to set up, you can’t anticipate it as easily as backstab and can be repeated relatively fast as well as being kittening AOE. Who do you think you’re kidding?

It’s also a thousand times easier to see since Magnet takes forever to cast and Net Shot is blatantly obvious, then the engineer still has to walk into your model, and its AoE is pathetically small, where it will only knock out a second person if they’re practically standing inside of the target as well, and if they’re that close to a player cc’d by an engy then they aren’t smart enough to live anyway.
Granted, it DOES have a shorter reload time.
If you’re going to try to shoot down comparisons at least be correct.

Magnet doesn’t need to be used. Net Shot can be used by any engineer and is not a que for 100nades, it’s on a 10 second cooldown and can basically be spammed. That doesn’t even compare to 40-45s cooldown on steal, 45s cooldown on basilisk venom, 45s cooldown on assassin’s signet. The AOE is big enough to have uses. If you down a player in a 1v2 and the other player tries to res the downed player, 100nades would basically finish the job because you’re putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on both where a GC burst backstab thief would be kittened. The video posted earlier is a perfect showcase.

Any GC would more or less destroy someone immobilized for 2.6s if they didn’t use something defensive, nothing particularly special about 100nades there. Net Shot’s short cooldown is because the attack is so slow and obvious, meaning if it’s not at short range you should easily avoid it. If it’s at point blank then it’s basically unavoidable, which Steal has except at 900 range. And if you get Net Shotted and the engineer closes in you’re already sure Blunderbuss, Pry Bar, or Jump Shot is forthcoming anyway, so even if they aren’t 100nades you’d sure as kitten better be doing something to get out of there.
And barring a GS guardian pulling a few people in, being used against someone getting rezzed is about the only circumstance you’ll ever hit more than 1 non-moronic person with it.

So, again: 100nades deleted, BS remains. Unjustifiable.

You don’t get it, do you? Backstab damage doesn’t come near 100nades in most cases. You can’t counter a oneshot. Backstab doesn’t oneshot anything in 80 exotic. It’s the combination of skills that makes it lethal and counterable at the same time.

Really. So the 18k Mug>CnD>BS does on light glass in sPvP, where, mind you, Critical Damage is far more limited because the Berserker’s amulet/jewel is diluted and there’s no food, doesn’t oneshot.
Adding in the higher Critical Damage and Power from Berserker’s in WvW (not even including food) that goes to 22.5k.

Also, since you seem so desperate to ignore it, I shall restate: 100nades will not work without combining it with an obvious CC because it will miss.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dual.8953:

Except the Backstab isn’t a true one shot, it’s a combo

And neither was 100nades. It was 2 skills and also all but required cc as a setup, and even when you do get cc’d there’s still time while you’re watching them walk into your character model to do something about it.

The fact of the matter is you COULD 1shot someone with 100 nades (the insta kill) without ANY setup. It was hard but completely doable. Backstab isn’t possible to 1 shot anyone in 1 skill. It’s a 4 part combo. Steal, cnd, invis, backstab. I put invis there because going invis is a necessary part of the chain. Without using a skill previously to go invis, there’s no backstab. Also, 90% of the time, you’ll need to land the steal>cnd to be able to drop the target with backstab.

tldr, 100 nades could 1shot without prep, thief can’t

You can’t 1-shot someone with 100nades.

If you don’t immobilize them it won’t land. Same logic right?

Sunflowers.1729:

You can’t 1-shot someone with 100nades.

If you don’t immobilize them it won’t land. Same logic right?

No. You can still land it. It’s harder, but you can still land it.

If you dodge the cloak-and-dagger, the thief can’t do the backstab combo.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

I hope I don’t get in trouble for saying this, but it is a very good thing that this guy isn’t on the pvp balance team. Thief damage and their ability to vanish around without being touched is an issue.

timidobserver.7925:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

I hope I don’t get in trouble for saying this, but it is a very good thing that this guy isn’t on the pvp balance team. Thief damage and their ability to vanish around without being touched is an issue.

And you should learn to read the rest of the posts in this topic. “Vanish around without being touched.” Seriously?

Rofl this might aswell get merged with the feedback thread lol. This really got the people to see the light! Or backfired.

If you are still having trouble with thieves after the change then you just are a thief hater. Just go make one I don’t play my thief much anymore but I have no problem killing any thief style on my warrior that includes P/D bleed spam.

The people in here still complaining about thieves just want it changed they aren’t going to change their mind. You are always going to have a segment that just is polar opposite and won’t budge. They either have to deal or they quit. Throw thief haters in the same bowl as the ascended gear treadmill haters.

Keep your burst damage.
Change (not necessarily nerf) the way stealth works.
No class should have the ability to pick and choose battles the way a thief does.

-Losing 1v1? > Stealth and away
-Losing 1v1 by a small margin? > Stealth, heal and finish the job
-Odds turn against you? > Stealth and away
-Accidentally ran right into the middle of a zerg > Stealth and away
-Purposely ran into the middle of a zerg to finish someone on low health and then stealth stomp them giving them no way of targeting and interupting you? > Stealth and away

BTW the stealth stomp thing. Stupidest kitten idea ever, might as well make it so when a thief kills you you don’t get a downed state, the result would be the same in most cases.

FletchTalon.8320:

BTW the stealth stomp thing. Stupidest kitten idea ever, might as well make it so when a thief kills you you don’t get a downed state, the result would be the same in most cases.

Opposed to Mist Form, Obsidian Flesh, Elixir S, Endure Pain + Stability, Distortion? You know, stomps that are LITERALLY unstoppable. Rangers and Guardians could still slow down stealth stomps with downed skills, and allies can AoE near the downed person to either down or force a retreat from the Thief. But of course, with these skills I mention, you can SEE the person who CANNOT BE STOPPED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, but the important thing is that they are visible. Therefore, they are perfectly fine.

I’m sick of this garbage.

Auesis.7301:

FletchTalon.8320:

BTW the stealth stomp thing. Stupidest kitten idea ever, might as well make it so when a thief kills you you don’t get a downed state, the result would be the same in most cases.

Opposed to Mist Form, Obsidian Flesh, Elixir S, Endure Pain + Stability, Distortion? You know, stomps that are LITERALLY unstoppable. Rangers and Guardians could still slow down stealth stomps with downed skills, and allies can AoE near the downed person to either down or force a retreat from the Thief. But of course, with these skills I mention, you can SEE the person who CANNOT BE STOPPED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, but the important thing is that they are visible. Therefore, they are perfectly fine.

I’m sick of this garbage.

The cooldowns on those skills are really long, and they are still counterable. The thief’s own downed skill counters them!

I don’t even think stealth stomp is op but if you’re gonna use that kind of logic, nobody will bother arguing with you.

Sunflowers.1729:

Auesis.7301:

FletchTalon.8320:

BTW the stealth stomp thing. Stupidest kitten idea ever, might as well make it so when a thief kills you you don’t get a downed state, the result would be the same in most cases.

Opposed to Mist Form, Obsidian Flesh, Elixir S, Endure Pain + Stability, Distortion? You know, stomps that are LITERALLY unstoppable. Rangers and Guardians could still slow down stealth stomps with downed skills, and allies can AoE near the downed person to either down or force a retreat from the Thief. But of course, with these skills I mention, you can SEE the person who CANNOT BE STOPPED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, but the important thing is that they are visible. Therefore, they are perfectly fine.

I’m sick of this garbage.

The cooldowns on those skills are really long, and they are still counterable. The thief’s own downed skill counters them!

I don’t even think stealth stomp is op but if you’re gonna use that kind of logic, nobody will bother arguing with you.

And deservedly so. They are a literal free kill against anyone who isn’t a Thief or an Elementalist, with no method of prevention. Stealth stomps are preventable, thus are able to be used more often. End of it as far as I’m concerned.

Auesis.7301:

FletchTalon.8320:

BTW the stealth stomp thing. Stupidest kitten idea ever, might as well make it so when a thief kills you you don’t get a downed state, the result would be the same in most cases.

Opposed to Mist Form, Obsidian Flesh, Elixir S, Endure Pain + Stability, Distortion? You know, stomps that are LITERALLY unstoppable. Rangers and Guardians could still slow down stealth stomps with downed skills, and allies can AoE near the downed person to either down or force a retreat from the Thief. But of course, with these skills I mention, you can SEE the person who CANNOT BE STOPPED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, but the important thing is that they are visible. Therefore, they are perfectly fine.

I’m sick of this garbage.

I don’t think any class should be able to stomp without fear of interrupt.
However none of those have ever happened to me, I wasn’t even aware of their existence. What does happen to me however, every time a thief comes along is I get stomped by something that cant even be hit (excluding AOE).
For a ranger at least, this means that a thief can stomp with absolutely no risk in a 1v1 scenario. I don’t know how you figure I can slow down a stealth stomp. Not only can I not interrupt, I can’t deal any damage at all because both my damge dealing downed skills require a target.
Technically as a ranger I guess I’d be able to apply stability by using Rampage as One but that’s an elite skill which I’d be wasting and as said above if you’re a thief It’d be truly wasted cuz you’d just disappear and teleport.

FletchTalon.8320:

For a ranger at least, this means that a thief can stomp with absolutely no risk in a 1v1 scenario. I don’t know how you figure I can slow down a stealth stomp. Not only can I not interrupt, I can’t deal any damage at all because both my damge dealing downed skills require a target.

Well the answer is obvious here.

Don’t get downed in a 1v1. Seriously, what classes do you expect to beat while downed?

FletchTalon.8320:

For a ranger at least, this means that a thief can stomp with absolutely no risk in a 1v1 scenario. I don’t know how you figure I can slow down a stealth stomp. Not only can I not interrupt, I can’t deal any damage at all because both my damge dealing downed skills require a target.

Use pet fear (From Wolf F2) > Thunderclap when the Thief becomes visible > Lick Wounds + Bandage to rally and then continue fighting.

Sure it requires having the Wolf equipped, but considering it’s a popular pet for PvP due to the AoE fear allowing Rangers to counter Thieves stomps and Shadow Refuge and other abilities from other classes it’s not such a bad thing to need to rely on.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

FletchTalon.8320:

For a ranger at least, this means that a thief can stomp with absolutely no risk in a 1v1 scenario. I don’t know how you figure I can slow down a stealth stomp. Not only can I not interrupt, I can’t deal any damage at all because both my damge dealing downed skills require a target.

Well the answer is obvious here.

Don’t get downed in a 1v1. Seriously, what classes do you expect to beat while downed?

Its not about beating, it can just as easily be about delaying.
Whether its because I want to delay them from reaching an objective, or because I strayed from a group and want to buy time for allies to help me.

Much like when I (rarely) get a thief/mesmer/elementalist to the downed state, their ability to delay my stomp can easily lead to me getting caught by all their friends just around the corner of the keep.

Also whilst I specifically mentioned a 1v1 fight, it doesn’t change the fact that they are still at a much reduced risk even when the odds are against them. As mentioned previously there are thieves who can race into the midst of a zerg, home in on someone (generally already low on health) down them and then stealth stomp them. They then disappear back behind their lines, heal up, wash rince repeat. This in spite of the fact that they are surrounded by enemies.
Now granted I’ve seen big tanky buggers wade into enemy lines and do some major damage. Thing is, they usually can’t then stomp a downed person in the middle of the enemy because as tough as they are, they make themselves a prime target to everyone paying attention.

But then I’m one of these silly people who thinks stealth as a whole is in need of a restructuring. I get that just nerfing it will upset the scales in the opposite direction, but I also don’t think it currently works in a way that is fair. As I said above, stealth works like a magical GTFO button which thieves can use to decide to ditch any battle they’re losing or worse, continually leave heal and return to a battle until they win or the odds turn against them.

Those are pretty universal counters to… any class.

Stunned or stoned? Use a break stun? Isn’t that a no brainer?

Immobilized? Use a condition removal skill? Duh?

I’m pretty confidant in saying those aren’t the reasons thieves are considered “OP.”

The fact that thieves have constant access to a state of being (invisibility) that allows you, when traited, to gain health, initiative and condition removal, can make any battle a frustration. If anything, that state of being should provide some hindrance toward your defense, not a strength. The problem with stealth in this game is that there aren’t any hard counters to it.

Being a thief is just too easy: they have the capacity to make plenty of mistakes and have a plethora of safety nets.

Having played 6 classes in spvp, i’d say that thieves are pretty darn hard to do well with outside of the instagib build.

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

naphack.9346:

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

“Cast time” on BS? You mean the half second or so between the CnD and the backstab? Never mind that it takes about that long to throw the toolbelt Grenade Barrage. Same timespan for the result.
And as I said previously, if an engineer nets you and then approaches you, it doesn’t matter if he’s 100nades or not, you’re about to eat a Blunderbuss, double Jump Shot, or a Prybar. Regardless of their build you’d sure as kitten better be getting out of there.
And in fact your statement at the end counters what Robert Hrouda said earlier in the thread, about BS burst supposedly having “play” with feints and such when 100nades did not, and plainly 100nades had feints as well.
Bottom line, as long as both of them are instagib builds with little input on the defender’s end, BS should be compared to 100nades. And it should get the same treatment.

Raptured.9307:

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

No, 100nades got deleted. And going by the standards they used for that, so should BS.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

“Cast time” on BS? You mean the half second or so between the CnD and the backstab? Never mind that it takes about that long to throw the toolbelt Grenade Barrage. Same timespan for the result.
And as I said previously, if an engineer nets you and then approaches you, it doesn’t matter if he’s 100nades or not, you’re about to eat a Blunderbuss, double Jump Shot, or a Prybar. Regardless of their build you’d sure as kitten better be getting out of there.
And in fact your statement at the end counters what Robert Hrouda said earlier in the thread, about BS burst supposedly having “play” with feints and such when 100nades did not, and plainly 100nades had feints as well.
Bottom line, as long as both of them are instagib builds with little input on the defender’s end, BS should be compared to 100nades. And it should get the same treatment.

Raptured.9307:

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

No, 100nades got deleted. And going by the standards they used for that, so should BS.

What part or the combo should be nerfed then?

Maugetarr.6823:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

“Cast time” on BS? You mean the half second or so between the CnD and the backstab? Never mind that it takes about that long to throw the toolbelt Grenade Barrage. Same timespan for the result.
And as I said previously, if an engineer nets you and then approaches you, it doesn’t matter if he’s 100nades or not, you’re about to eat a Blunderbuss, double Jump Shot, or a Prybar. Regardless of their build you’d sure as kitten better be getting out of there.
And in fact your statement at the end counters what Robert Hrouda said earlier in the thread, about BS burst supposedly having “play” with feints and such when 100nades did not, and plainly 100nades had feints as well.
Bottom line, as long as both of them are instagib builds with little input on the defender’s end, BS should be compared to 100nades. And it should get the same treatment.

Raptured.9307:

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

No, 100nades got deleted. And going by the standards they used for that, so should BS.

What part or the combo should be nerfed then?

Well, for starters, remove precasting CnD.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Maugetarr.6823:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

“Cast time” on BS? You mean the half second or so between the CnD and the backstab? Never mind that it takes about that long to throw the toolbelt Grenade Barrage. Same timespan for the result.
And as I said previously, if an engineer nets you and then approaches you, it doesn’t matter if he’s 100nades or not, you’re about to eat a Blunderbuss, double Jump Shot, or a Prybar. Regardless of their build you’d sure as kitten better be getting out of there.
And in fact your statement at the end counters what Robert Hrouda said earlier in the thread, about BS burst supposedly having “play” with feints and such when 100nades did not, and plainly 100nades had feints as well.
Bottom line, as long as both of them are instagib builds with little input on the defender’s end, BS should be compared to 100nades. And it should get the same treatment.

Raptured.9307:

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

No, 100nades got deleted. And going by the standards they used for that, so should BS.

What part or the combo should be nerfed then?

Well, for starters, remove precasting CnD.

we should just delete thief.. in fact delete all classes and jsut have 1.. no complaints then.. or will there be?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

“Cast time” on BS? You mean the half second or so between the CnD and the backstab? Never mind that it takes about that long to throw the toolbelt Grenade Barrage. Same timespan for the result.
And as I said previously, if an engineer nets you and then approaches you, it doesn’t matter if he’s 100nades or not, you’re about to eat a Blunderbuss, double Jump Shot, or a Prybar. Regardless of their build you’d sure as kitten better be getting out of there.
And in fact your statement at the end counters what Robert Hrouda said earlier in the thread, about BS burst supposedly having “play” with feints and such when 100nades did not, and plainly 100nades had feints as well.
Bottom line, as long as both of them are instagib builds with little input on the defender’s end, BS should be compared to 100nades. And it should get the same treatment.

Raptured.9307:

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

No, 100nades got deleted. And going by the standards they used for that, so should BS.

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.
Backstab works as intended. That’s the whole difference.
And if you still wanna look at it from a balance stand point, look, what the thief can do if you get away from him after he blew his initiation and before he could backstab you and what the engi can do.
Got out of net before he got to you? Oh, wait, still got magnet pull. Got away from that? let’s grab stability and overcharge shot him.
Got away from that? well, just get the tool kit and block a bit, net should be up again in a couple seconds.
The engineer could drive you into a corner simply with the mere possibility of him using 100nades, while you’d have to use stun breaks, immob breaks and dodges on every single skill he throws at you.
Thief? Evade the backstab, he just burnt 3 long cooldowns and got nothing to fall back on besides going into stealth and running away.
I said before and I will say it again, there is a huge difference betwee them. If I had to nail the biggest difference, it’d be, that with 100 nades, you are dead, as soon, as you take the first burst of damage, cause that burst is already 120-150% of your hp. CnD, Mug, BS, HS is 3 bursts, which come in very short succession, but you can always dodge out after the first burst and use a HEAL to make the rest of the combo pointless. Tell me, how you can outheal a 100nade build.

naphack.9346:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

Guys, can you stop these 100nades comparison?
There is one huge difference between these:
You can say 100 nades is more than one skill as much as you want, most players will only react the moment, they actually take damage, which is too late, as within one frame, you lose all your hp to a combo with up to no cast time(one part of the combo triggers instantly anyway, the other part takes about as much time to cast as a CnD).
Get mugged? Fine, Stun break, block, dodge out(or something similar, depends on your class).
Get immobilized/pulled? Fine. Oh. dead.
There is just a huge difference in the timing. 100 nades dealt ZERO(ok, maybe jump shot/overcharge shot) damage to you till the moment, your face kissed the ground instantly.
With the thief, you have CnD, Mug, CAST TIME, Backstab, Cast Time, Heart Seeker, (CAST TIME, Heart Seeker).
With 100 nades, you got net, jump, BOOOOOOM!
Now tell me which one is easier to respond to. Just cause he did net you, doesn’t mean, it’s an actual 100 nades build, and him walking or jumping onto you might simply be a feint to get you to blow your panic button, so he starts the fight with an advantage.

“Cast time” on BS? You mean the half second or so between the CnD and the backstab? Never mind that it takes about that long to throw the toolbelt Grenade Barrage. Same timespan for the result.
And as I said previously, if an engineer nets you and then approaches you, it doesn’t matter if he’s 100nades or not, you’re about to eat a Blunderbuss, double Jump Shot, or a Prybar. Regardless of their build you’d sure as kitten better be getting out of there.
And in fact your statement at the end counters what Robert Hrouda said earlier in the thread, about BS burst supposedly having “play” with feints and such when 100nades did not, and plainly 100nades had feints as well.
Bottom line, as long as both of them are instagib builds with little input on the defender’s end, BS should be compared to 100nades. And it should get the same treatment.

Raptured.9307:

100nades got nerfed. So did thief instagib. It isn’t exactly instant, but you get the point.

No, 100nades got deleted. And going by the standards they used for that, so should BS.

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.
Backstab works as intended. That’s the whole difference.
And if you still wanna look at it from a balance stand point, look, what the thief can do if you get away from him after he blew his initiation and before he could backstab you and what the engi can do.
Got out of net before he got to you? Oh, wait, still got magnet pull. Got away from that? let’s grab stability and overcharge shot him.
Got away from that? well, just get the tool kit and block a bit, net should be up again in a couple seconds.
The engineer could drive you into a corner simply with the mere possibility of him using 100nades, while you’d have to use stun breaks, immob breaks and dodges on every single skill he throws at you.
Thief? Evade the backstab, he just burnt 3 long cooldowns and got nothing to fall back on besides going into stealth and running away.
I said before and I will say it again, there is a huge difference betwee them. If I had to nail the biggest difference, it’d be, that with 100 nades, you are dead, as soon, as you take the first burst of damage, cause that burst is already 120-150% of your hp. CnD, Mug, BS, HS is 3 bursts, which come in very short succession, but you can always dodge out after the first burst and use a HEAL to make the rest of the combo pointless. Tell me, how you can outheal a 100nade build.

QTF

naphack.9346:

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

It wasn’t intended? source?

FletchTalon.8320:

Keep your burst damage.
Change (not necessarily nerf) the way stealth works.
No class should have the ability to pick and choose battles the way a thief does..

Go play another game, arenanet doesn’t agree with you.

Humorless.1573:

FletchTalon.8320:

Keep your burst damage.
Change (not necessarily nerf) the way stealth works.
No class should have the ability to pick and choose battles the way a thief does..

Go play another game, arenanet doesn’t agree with you.

Thief/Rogue in other games have a choice to pick and choose their fights.. its part of being a thief/rogue..

iNaddict.8021:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

It wasn’t intended? source?

Well, based on the flimsy justification that 2 things shouldn’t be able to be done at once, it must be.
Unless of course they hold a double standard for thief.

Well, then eles churning flash, guardians banishing intervention, all the tele stomping to counter downed thieves and using skills while blocking(engineers offhand shield) has to go, too, right?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

Except ANet said it was intended to work that way.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

There is nothing wrong with precasting cnd. It’s a melee ability coupled with a blink. Can do the exact same thing with mesmer blink and pretty sure same thing with sword. If anything, you should like it. It gives steal an animation to avoid.

Also why are you still in here? This is a THIEF forum. If you want to keep bringing up engis and talking about engis then go to the engi forum. Even a dev has replied to you telling you that 100 nades was a bug and it has been fixed. Your petitioning to have a bug brought back into the game isn’t a very noble cause.

naphack.9346:

Well, then eles churning flash, has to go, too, right?

most people don t even use that.

IF you roll you avoid damge even if you are near the ele…

you have almost 4 seconds to see it and REACT….(oh did you say your 4 seconds of revealed debuff is too long? how cute….)

How many second do you have to SEE a thief attack?

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

There is nothing wrong with precasting cnd. It’s a melee ability coupled with a blink. Can do the exact same thing with mesmer blink and pretty sure same thing with sword. If anything, you should like it. It gives steal an animation to avoid.

Also why are you still in here? This is a THIEF forum. If you want to keep bringing up engis and talking about engis then go to the engi forum. Even a dev has replied to you telling you that 100 nades was a bug and it has been fixed. Your petitioning to have a bug brought back into the game isn’t a very noble cause.

If you paid attention I said in this thread that I don’t want 100nades back.
I keep bringing up 100nades because it got deleted, as it should have been, and yet through cognitive dissonance they decide that other instagib builds are fine even though they’re remarkably similar.
Seeing as they allowed the dissonance in the first place, they’re not going to notice it on their own. Someone has to confront them about it.

stof.9341:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

naphack.9346:

100 nades got removed cause it was never intended to work that way.

So you’d have no problem with CnD precasting being removed then, since it obviously isn’t intended to work that way?

Except ANet said it was intended to work that way.

So, they say simultaneous attacks are bad for 100nades but fine for BS. And you see no problem with this blatant inconsistency.

They are not similar at all besides being able to bring your hp from full to zero.

Guys, let’s just bury this thread and stop feeding the trolls more…

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So, they say simultaneous attacks are bad for 100nades but fine for BS. And you see no problem with this blatant inconsistency.

Where did they say simultaneous attacks are bad? They said that 100nading someone from 100% HP to 0% HP in a single frame of damage is bad, no matter that you had to get into a complex position to do it. They said using instant cast with no animation skills during the cast time of other skills is intended gameplay and working as planned.

I stopped reading after it became apparent the dev left.

Especially after he stated dying to glass thieves is a l2 kitten ue.

naphack.9346:

They are not similar at all besides being able to bring your hp from full to zero.

Both kill in less than a second. Both change the position of 1 of the players to the other (engineer moves enemy to him, thief moves to enemy). Both need good positioning by the attacker to work. Both are capable of being spotted at range before they hit. Both can be defeated by a stunbreak if you somehow are capable of reacting in time.
Only real difference I see is the recharge time, which is easy enough to alter.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Both are capable of being spotted at range before they hit.

Wrong. Neither can be spotted at range actually. You see an opponent, he does “something”. You can guess, it’s a backstab thief and act accordingly, you can guess, he’s a 100 nader and act accordingly. But here is the difference: You don’t need to react to the thief at all, instantly, you just need to be ready to react. As soon, as he rips a big chunk out of you with cnd mug, you can just dodge/break and heal up. There. He won’t instagib you anymore.
If it’s an engi, you do not have this luxury. You have to waste your stunbreaks and blocks on nets, overcharge shots, mag pulls etc. Even if he doesn’t plan on using 100 nades. He can simply pound you and pound you while closing in and piling up the pressure with gap closers and immobilizes, cause he “might” be specced for 100 nades.
There is no part in the 100 nade combo which can be negated besides not letting him stand in you. THAT is the big difference, you simply can not seem to get through your head. As soon, as he stands in you, your hp drop from 100% to 0 regardless. A thief can not do that. You can break out after he CnDs and heal up, you survived the stuff. You can obsidian skin/mist form/… and survived the stuff.
Sure, with the right timing, you can invuln through a 100 nades but pray, it won’t be a fraction of a second too early(so you wasted that invuln on nothing) or too late(so you are dead already).
Why can’t you simply understand that there is a difference between three bursts which come in rapid succession, taking away ~40% of your hp each(15% if it’s a facestab or Heartseeker against >25% hp) and one huge spike which takes away 150% of your hitpoints in one hit?

naphack.9346:

blah blah blah

Alright, time is up, I know you have a hard time dealing with what you’re consider ‘cattle’ classes but that’s only your problem.

Anyways, I’d like to know which classes actually do complain about Thieves, because Engi is a very special case to them, they don’t need 100nades to deal with one.

Just for the record, I play my thief mostly condition specced or D/P. Played D/D full burst onehit wonder a couple weeks ago in spvp and found it utterly weak, cause the “onehit” door swings both ways.
An opponent as much as sneezes at you and you are done for.
That being said, I don’t find thief very enjoying to play anyway, cause the class just seems too pressed to make something happen at times, where other classes could simply lean back and carefully probe their opponent.

naphack.9346:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Both are capable of being spotted at range before they hit.

Wrong. Neither can be spotted at range actually. You see an opponent, he does “something”. You can guess, it’s a backstab thief and act accordingly, you can guess, he’s a 100 nader and act accordingly. But here is the difference: You don’t need to react to the thief at all, instantly, you just need to be ready to react. As soon, as he rips a big chunk out of you with cnd mug, you can just dodge/break and heal up. There. He won’t instagib you anymore.
If it’s an engi, you do not have this luxury. You have to waste your stunbreaks and blocks on nets, overcharge shots, mag pulls etc. Even if he doesn’t plan on using 100 nades. He can simply pound you and pound you while closing in and piling up the pressure with gap closers and immobilizes, cause he “might” be specced for 100 nades.
There is no part in the 100 nade combo which can be negated besides not letting him stand in you. THAT is the big difference, you simply can not seem to get through your head. As soon, as he stands in you, your hp drop from 100% to 0 regardless. A thief can not do that. You can break out after he CnDs and heal up, you survived the stuff. You can obsidian skin/mist form/… and survived the stuff.
Sure, with the right timing, you can invuln through a 100 nades but pray, it won’t be a fraction of a second too early(so you wasted that invuln on nothing) or too late(so you are dead already).
Why can’t you simply understand that there is a difference between three bursts which come in rapid succession, taking away ~40% of your hp each(15% if it’s a facestab or Heartseeker against >25% hp) and one huge spike which takes away 150% of your hitpoints in one hit?

Don’t bother, people are too stupid to listen and arenanet sees the difference, so there’s no problem.

Humorless.1573:

Don’t bother, people are too stupid to listen and arenanet sees the difference, so there’s no problem.

Always solid advice. To anyone who sees this post, please do yourself (and everyone else) a BIG favour by ignoring the trolls forz and gimme. They will ignore any points you have in your post and just try to spam thief hate down your throat.

randomfightfan.4091:

Humorless.1573:

Don’t bother, people are too stupid to listen and arenanet sees the difference, so there’s no problem.

Always solid advice. To anyone who sees this post, please do yourself (and everyone else) a BIG favour by ignoring the trolls forz and gimme. They will ignore any points you have in your post and just try to spam thief hate down your throat.

And to anyone who sees this post, please do yourself a favor by ignoring the trolls random. humorless, and naphack, no matter how hard you throw the facts in their faces they brush them off to protect their precious BS burst.

See? I can spout bullkitten about you too and it sounds just as plausible.

inb4 thread close

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

Humorless.1573:

Don’t bother, people are too stupid to listen and arenanet sees the difference, so there’s no problem.

Always solid advice. To anyone who sees this post, please do yourself (and everyone else) a BIG favour by ignoring the trolls forz and gimme. They will ignore any points you have in your post and just try to spam thief hate down your throat.

And to anyone who sees this post, please do yourself a favor by ignoring the trolls random. humorless, and naphack, no matter how hard you throw the facts in their faces they brush them off to protect their precious BS burst.

See? I can spout bullkitten about you too and it sounds just as plausible.

The difference is our points are backed up by developers. Yours aren’t and have actually been replied to and told they aren’t. Don’t believe me? Go back and read the 1st page.

randomfightfan.4091:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

randomfightfan.4091:

Humorless.1573:

Don’t bother, people are too stupid to listen and arenanet sees the difference, so there’s no problem.

Always solid advice. To anyone who sees this post, please do yourself (and everyone else) a BIG favour by ignoring the trolls forz and gimme. They will ignore any points you have in your post and just try to spam thief hate down your throat.

And to anyone who sees this post, please do yourself a favor by ignoring the trolls random. humorless, and naphack, no matter how hard you throw the facts in their faces they brush them off to protect their precious BS burst.

See? I can spout bullkitten about you too and it sounds just as plausible.

The difference is our points are backed up by developers. Yours aren’t and have actually been replied to and told they aren’t. Don’t believe me? Go back and read the 1st page.

All I see is one dev that dodged the questions asked and said some stuff about how BS is totally fine when the exact same things could be said about 100nades.
And then you derailing for a page because you don’t know that 100nades isn’t the name of a skill.