Guild Wars 2

I’ve got ele, war and thief on 80 but thief was always my favourite. I’ve read the topic. I asked people in game. Is thief really completely useless right now?

its good pve, best dps, but pvp its trash tier

Thief is not completely useless, it just takes a lot of experience to play it and the class is just underperforming in certain area (group support for example).

The biggest issue is community tbh: certanly thief is not best class atm but it is mostly community that is denying them any group play. You won’t be taken in raids because people think thieves suck (they are ok in raids actually). People won’t take you on pvp teams because thieves can’t play bunkers (still can win games as thief though, just gotta have coordinated team).

If you enjoy thief, play it. Evetually (in 2 years or so lol) the class will get some buffs or other classes get nerfs. If you want easy road, play ele – wanted everywhere.

Urejt.5648:

its good pve, best dps, but pvp its trash tier

Thief sucks in pve too, utility is worse than what other classes have, dps is not best. Condi Engi, Condi Berserker, Tempest and Herald have better dps than thief.

Petoox.6570:

Urejt.5648:

its good pve, best dps, but pvp its trash tier

Thief sucks in pve too, utility is worse than what other classes have, dps is not best. Condi Engi, Condi Berserker, Tempest and Herald have better dps than thief.

Not really. We have the most damage modifiers from traits. Zerk Staff thief can hit 20-25k+ DPS consistently.
You just need a PS Warrior, a Herald, a Druid, and maybe a Chronomancer in your party (alacrity don’t really affect us that much to be honest).
If we have access to all the party damage buffs in game, we can deal arguably the highest DPS of any class.

But Party Buffs mean Chronomancer Quickness nearly 100% Uptime. A 50% damage Boost.

Revenant Sword Autoattack Chain has a Strength Modifier from 1,49 per Second in the middle.
Thief Staff Modifier is 1,18 Strength per second in the middle.

That means with Revenant deals around 25% more Damage with Autoattacks and has Herald he gives the Team and Chronomancer 50% Boon Duration (worth 750 points in stats for every member) for Quickness and Sacrifices Nothing.

The problem is the Thief damage is not good enough for a character who cant support the other 4 people or the damage is okay but he lacks support.

And the Revnant Devastation Traitline gives you:

Vulnerability proc chance
10% damage with Sword
7% damage when enemy has vulnerability
150 Ferocity for the whole Team
20% damage when enemy is under 50%

Invocation
7% damage when under Fury
Fury gives +100% Bonus means 20% critchance Bonus

Herald
2%damage per Boon

Sorry to say, but Thief is not the only whone with damage amplifier.

Capa.7684:

But Party Buffs mean Chronomancer Quickness nearly 100% Uptime. A 50% damage Boost.

Revenant Sword Autoattack Chain has a Strength Modifier from 1,49 per Second in the middle.
Thief Staff Modifier is 1,18 Strength per second in the middle.

That means with Revenant deals around 25% more Damage with Autoattacks and has Herald he gives the Team and Chronomancer 50% Boon Duration (worth 750 points in stats for every member) for Quickness and Sacrifices Nothing.

The problem is the Thief damage is not good enough for a character who cant support the other 4 people or the damage is okay but he lacks support.

And the Revnant Devastation Traitline gives you:

Vulnerability proc chance
10% damage with Sword
7% damage when enemy has vulnerability
150 Ferocity for the whole Team
20% damage when enemy is under 50%

Invocation
7% damage when under Fury
Fury gives +100% Bonus means 20% critchance Bonus

Herald
2%damage per Boon

Sorry to say, but Thief is not the only whone with damage amplifier.

I’m not sure where you get those numbers from (Weapon damage? I really don’t know, would really love to know), because unlike Revs, thieves do not simply auto-attack. You have to take into account skill damage from thieves, including utility skills such as Fist Flury>Palm strike.

In a party situation, thieves benefit as much from quickness as Revs do. The only thing we are not greatly affected by is alacrity (which don’t affect revenants much either).

I would have to agree that thief is not the only one with damage amplifiers, but compared to rev, I’d say we have more, even when the rev has all the boons in the game (which is highly unlikely) =) :

bound dodge +10%, (after dodging)
Flawless strikes +7%, (us at +90% hp),
Ferocious Strkes +10% (enemy above 50%) or Executioner +20% (enemy below 50%),
Exposed weakness +10%, (enemy with a condition, which is 100% of the time)
Havoc Mastery +7%, (in melee)
Staff master +10%, (in staff)
Assassin’s Signet (+180 power)
Practiced tolerance (10% of precison > ferocity)
No Quarter (+250 ferocity)

I agree, the major problem with thief is the lack of party buffs, as thieves are meant to be a ’control’ type profession (from the gw2 soft trinity). But if you already have all the party buff you need, Thief is a very solid DPS option.

EazyPanda.6419:

Capa.7684:

But Party Buffs mean Chronomancer Quickness nearly 100% Uptime. A 50% damage Boost.

Revenant Sword Autoattack Chain has a Strength Modifier from 1,49 per Second in the middle.
Thief Staff Modifier is 1,18 Strength per second in the middle.

That means with Revenant deals around 25% more Damage with Autoattacks and has Herald he gives the Team and Chronomancer 50% Boon Duration (worth 750 points in stats for every member) for Quickness and Sacrifices Nothing.

The problem is the Thief damage is not good enough for a character who cant support the other 4 people or the damage is okay but he lacks support.

And the Revnant Devastation Traitline gives you:

Vulnerability proc chance
10% damage with Sword
7% damage when enemy has vulnerability
150 Ferocity for the whole Team
20% damage when enemy is under 50%

Invocation
7% damage when under Fury
Fury gives +100% Bonus means 20% critchance Bonus

Herald
2%damage per Boon

Sorry to say, but Thief is not the only whone with damage amplifier.

I’m not sure where you get those numbers from (Weapon damage? I really don’t know, would really love to know), because unlike Revs, thieves do not simply auto-attack. You have to take into account skill damage from thieves, including utility skills such as Fist Flury>Palm strike.

In a party situation, thieves benefit as much from quickness as Revs do. The only thing we are not greatly affected by is alacrity (which don’t affect revenants much either).

I would have to agree that thief is not the only one with damage amplifiers, but compared to rev, I’d say we have more, even when the rev has all the boons in the game (which is highly unlikely) =) :

bound dodge 10%, (after dodging)
Flawless strikes +7%, (us at +90% hp),
Ferocious Strkes +10% (enemy above 50%) or Executioner +20% (enemy below 50%),
Exposed weakness +10%, (enemy with a condition, which is 100% of the time)
Havoc Mastery +7%, (in melee)
Staff master +10%, (in staff)
Assassin’s Signet (180 power)
Practiced tolerance (10% of precison > ferocity)
No Quarter (+250 ferocity)

I agree, the major problem with thief is the lack of party buffs, as thieves are meant to be a ‘control’ type profession (from the gw2 soft trinity). But if you already have all the party buff you need, Thief is a very solid DPS option.

You also have to consider that in addition to those available buffs the thief can generate himself , they are made yet more powerful when synergizing with the Revenant buffs. So the thief can get 20 (his own) plus 20 (from rev)percent damage when the enemy under 50 percent just as one example. The thief can get his 250+ ferocity off No quarter plus the ferocity off Praticed tolerance plus the 150 from the Revenant shared

Unless you’ve got the rest of the team carrying you, thief currently is pretty awful. It’s my main and I do ok with it. But in pvp pretty much all I can do is avoid fights and decap stuff now. Most classes simply one hit aoe down me now. You dodge, but not far enough, or you dodge but hit an invisible wall and get hit anway. Plus you get to feel all the rage of your friends for being dumb enough to play thief.

Link.1049:

Unless you’ve got the rest of the team carrying you, thief currently is pretty awful. It’s my main and I do ok with it. But in pvp pretty much all I can do is avoid fights and decap stuff now. Most classes simply one hit aoe down me now. You dodge, but not far enough, or you dodge but hit an invisible wall and get hit anway. Plus you get to feel all the rage of your friends for being dumb enough to play thief.

A key problem is of course that high hitting AOE attack that every other class seems to have. It very hard to dodge and you can not stealth through it.

It interesting that they lowered shadowed resilience from 50 to 20 from when it was first proposed because it would be “too powerful” yet gave other classes traits such as rise and bulwark gyro that reduce damage by 50 percent to classes that already have access to tremendous sustain and things like more vitality or access to protection. Where a person trying to sit in stealth to get resilience does no damage, these others can keep dishing it out as they shrug off damage coming their own way.

A good number of thieves suggest that the damage output of the thief has to rise to compensate for all of the power creep in other classes but I can not see that helping a lot without some more ability to deal with all the damage being pumped out by those other classes. The thief has to live long anough to get that burst off and wading through AOE circles stacked atop one another to do so is not giving opportunity to use that burst.

The problem are the cooldowns. In a boss fight over a few minutes the dps gain from Abilities is not that big.

Revenant 1,49 Strength modifier * 1,5 modifier from Quickness are around 2,235 Strength modifier. Thats nearly the modifer from Vault Attack Staff 5 every second.

I will not say that the damage is really bad but as a Thief you must play with your skills like a piono when a Revnenant use autoattacks and has one arm free. Every second you have full initiatve is a huge damage loss the same when you endurance is full you must use you abilities for damage and cant win against a semi afk one.

Capa.7684:

The problem are the cooldowns. In a boss fight over a few minutes the dps gain from Abilities is not that big.

Revenant 1,49 Strength modifier * 1,5 modifier from Quickness are around 2,235 Strength modifier. Thats nearly the modifer from Vault Attack Staff 5 every second.

I will not say that the damage is really bad but as a Thief you must play with your skills like a piono when a Revnenant use autoattacks and has one arm free. Every second you have full initiatve is a huge damage loss the same when you endurance is full you must use you abilities for damage and cant win against a semi afk one.

Ah, but the thing is you don’t even use Vault for pure DPS. You use Weakening Charge instead, and if played correctly, you will never have full endurace or full initiative (but you never run out of it either).
Ever tried the Bound> x2 Weakening charge > AA >Bound combo?
And Thief benefit from quickness as well, and if you pull of your rotations correctly, you will not run out of initiative even with quickness.

I agree, we need to press more buttons then a Rev, but that’s not the point.

In fact, I’ll post a post I’ve made previously.

EazyPanda.6419:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn8lCFOhNOBWmCkmiFaCbLPNc2TzVwN4IULAMhiAA-TBSBABP8AAoU9HzUCe1+jyv8PEA4pLQjjAAAXAASBMwyI-e
This is the build I’m using. I might switch the heal to SoM, or swap No Quarter for Invigoration Precision for more heals.

Considering all this takes place in an optimal situation,
25 stack of might,
25 stacks of vulnerability,
Warrior Banners and Empower Allies,
+10% damage food,
Druid Frost Spirit +10% and Glyph and Grace of the Land,
Revenant’s Assassin’s Presence,

all our modifiers working :
bound dodge +10%, (after dodging)
Scholar bonus +10% (us at +90% hp),
Flawless strikes +7%, (us at +90% hp),
Ferocious Strkes +10% (enemy above 50%) or Executioner +20% (enemy below 50%),
Exposed weakness +10%, (enemy with a condition, which is 100% of the time)
Havoc Mastery +7%, (in melee, duh)
Staff master +10%, (in staff, duh)
occasionally popping Assassin’s Signet +15% when Mesmers are calling out Alacraty.
(yes, it’s a lot of modifiers)

The following situation is in a non-burst situation in Vale Guardian (no coordination with druids popping their glyphs)
Note, I’m using Exotic armor (swapped my ascended to Vipers), but with Asc trinkets and Weapon, so the numbers I’ve put forward should be 2-3% less then it would be in ascended gear (with makes little difference tbh).

I was able to deal around 10+k per hit of Weakening charge (without Executioner), which deals x3 hits.
That is around roughly 30k per Weakening Charge, or 10k damage per initiative.
A Weakening Charge cast time is 1/2 a second.
Our bound dodge deals roughly 18k damage per dodge. The dodge is 3/4 seconds long.
Our Auto-attack chain deals roughly 36k damage per chain, and takes around 2.5 seconds to complete the chain.

My damage rotation for the Vale guardian is Bound > Weakening Charge x3 > Auto-attack chain x1.5 (skip halfway) > Bound ~repeat. (This is NOT the optimum damage rotation, but the optimum dmg rotation gets me killed in Vale. This rotation is tailored for VG alone)

The whole rotation takes around 3/4s + (3 × 1/2s) +(1.5 × 2.5s) = 6 seconds, so lets say 7 seconds to pull off, with the possibility of non-optimal rotations.
By the end of 7 seconds, we would have regenerated 7 initiative, hence allowing us to pull off the rotation again without much loss of initiative, and unless you are landing perfect dps rotations without any wasted time, your initiative will last you for a more then 4-5 rotations. If you DO run out of initiative, Fist Flury is there for the burst damage.
We will have plentiful Dodges, as our staff skills refills endurance, and we can always steal when we really need more dodges, as well as having SoA.

Total damage dealt over 6 seconds is around 18k+ (3 × 30k) + (1.5 × 36k) = 162k

Total DPS = (162k / 7s) = 23k DPS

Note, this is just from numbers on the top of my head, during the FIRST phase of Vale (the one I did the most, in full disclosure), which means no Executioner Buff (+20% dmg).
And these numbers might be slightly higher then usual, as i do not have 100% +10% dmg modifier from Bound. (But then this is calculation with a sub-optimal rotation)
And note that these numbers are not in a coordinated burst rotation, but rather in a stable phase, and we can keep up this DPS for a very long time, long enough to last through boss phases.

Non-Dare Devil thief class is very crappy right now across the board. There is a condi variant that can do well in WvW if the enemy isn’t running strong cleanse. The class can +1 and decap on some maps reasonably well but a Dare Devil is better at both IMO.

Even as a Dare Devil, the class under-performs. The meta has changed to bunker with heavy AoE application and thief has virtually no access to either. The existing bunkers also have few counter play options beyond just being flat out better than the other player by a large margin.

Mainhand Sword 1000 damage
around 3500 Strength
10% Scholar
5% Mainhand Sigil
10% Sword trait
7% Fury
7% Vuln at enemy
2,235 modifier with Quickness
around 240 critdamage with 100% critchance

Vale Guardian 1900 Armor

means around 14,xk dps * 1,25 = 18k dps
When you use Bufffood and 20% damage under 50% you reach over 20k. Somebody mentioned 22k dps maximum with Autoattacks are possible.

Yes you have maybe more but you used all Buffs from others and gives them nothing in return. 5 or 10% more damage than another class is not good enough.

Capa.7684:

Mainhand Sword 1000 damage
around 3500 Strength
10% Scholar
5% Mainhand Sigil
10% Sword trait
7% Fury
7% Vuln at enemy
2,235 modifier with Quickness
around 240 critdamage with 100% critchance

Vale Guardian 1900 Armor

means around 14,xk dps * 1,25 = 18k dps
When you use Bufffood and 20% damage under 50% you reach over 20k. Somebody mentioned 22k dps maximum with Autoattacks are possible.

Yes you have maybe more but you used all Buffs from others and gives them nothing in return. 5 or 10% more damage than another class is not good enough.

Ah, but with thief, this is 23-25k dps WITHOUT Quickness. =) Under the effect of quickness, our DPS may potentially hit 30+k dps, no? =)

And once you have a PS Warrior, Druid, Herald and Chronomancer in a party, there’s hardly any buffs that will greatly benefit the DPS of a party. Hence thief is the optimal 5th slot for the party. We can utilize all the buff for maximum effect (in terms of DPS).

Other classes may give more survivability to the whole party, that much is uncontested, But in terms of maximum DPS, thief is the way to go.