Guild Wars 2

This is not a “Nerf it!” thread. This is not a “pointing fingers at other ignored classes because you keep bullying me” thread. THIS PARTICULAR THREAD is a “Before you start pointing fingers, look at your surroundings and check your info” thread.

This thread is not to kitten about necros being OP, but by showing you that Thieves being Overpowered (dictionary.com ref) is only an excuse and that there are ways to counter them. Necros are used as an example.

There is ALWAYS a counter to EVERYTHING in this game and screaming “Omfg, he kill me! OP!” is the worst way to get better….. because you don’t get better. If the Thief (which is being nerfed to uselessness) is killing you, up your game.

And to the people who didn’t understand this the first time, READ it instead of wrongly assuming my intentions.

I have seen necromancers tear apart thieves in 5-10 seconds. I have friends who play Thief who don’t have much of a problem with any other profession except the Necromancer. I have Necromancer friends who claim they can rip apart thieves. Last night, a Necromancer was ACTIVELY HUNTING one of my Guild Officers who was on their Thief.

So if Thieves are soooooooo OP then Necromancers must be EXTREMELY overpowered. I don’t see anyone complaining about them, do you? No.

Before you start crying “OP” at the Thief that killed you, understand that there are others who can rip them (as well as you) apart.

Its all to perspective. For me Confusion Mesmers (pre this patch, we’ll see if this is still true) were the only Mesmer build that would destroy me. Any other Mesmer would have no chance. So to other builds me (or thieves) would be “OP” but to Confusion base Mesmers I (or thieves) are a joke.

It comes down to how you build your self, my build lacks condition removal so Necros are “OP” to me but that’s not the classes fault, its mine for building the way I do. If you have under 1400 toughness and what to know why thieves hit you so hard and seem “OP” because you have 1400 toughness.

Plus, I don’t know about other thief players but if I hit a guy/girl for 6k+ backstab, I’m going to focus you because your soft. People want every build and every class to be balanced and that is only going to build a stagnant PvP system.

Zikory.6871:

Its all to perspective. For me Confusion Mesmers (pre this patch, we’ll see if this is still true) were the only Mesmer build that would destroy me. Any other Mesmer would have no chance. So to other builds me (or thieves) would be “OP” but to Confusion base Mesmers I (or thieves) are a joke.

It comes down to how you build your self, my build lacks condition removal so Necros are “OP” to me but that’s not the classes fault, its mine for building the way I do. If you have under 1400 toughness and what to know why thieves hit you so hard and seem “OP” because you have 1400 toughness.

Plus, I don’t know about other thief players but if I hit a guy/girl for 6k+ backstab, I’m going to focus you because your soft. People want every build and every class to be balanced and that is only going to build a stagnant PvP system.

Thank you! This is exactly the kind of response I wanted. +1 for understanding!

So what you’re saying is that because thieves have a hard time against one other profession that that profession, which has a difficult time against all the other professions, is even more OP than thieves….

Boy you were just tied to that track and that stupid train just kept runnin’ over ya didn’t it? Just runnin’ over you.

hey guys i want everything and i dont want to die either, can you do that for me anet? thanks!

Deamhan.9538:

So what you’re saying is that because thieves have a hard time against one other profession that that profession, which has a difficult time against all the other professions, is even more OP than thieves….

Boy you were just tied to that track and that stupid train just kept runnin’ over ya didn’t it? Just runnin’ over you.

I think you missed the point. I was pointing out 2 classes that have builds that counter my build. That doesn’t mean its only limited to those 2 classes or those 2 builds. I’ll try to explain this again slowly for you…For me…a thief…lacking in condition removal…a class…any class…with heavy condition damage…will seem “OP” to me. I’m not saying they are over powered and need a nerf. I’m saying that I have built my thief for a different reason and in doing so I’m susceptible condition damage. This doesn’t make condition damage over powered.

If you chose to build your character with out condition removal, stun breaks, X amount of toughness or Vit your going to be countered by different builds and classes.

To the OP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

Your sample size is terribad.

One time I went to Alabama and I only saw males. Hence, I believe it’s ok for me to assume that there were no females in Alabama at that time.

Zacchary.6183:

I have seen necromancers tear apart thieves in 5-10 seconds. I have friends who play Thief who don’t have much of a problem with any other profession except the Necromancer. I have Necromancer friends who claim they can rip apart thieves. Last night, a Necromancer was ACTIVELY HUNTING one of my Guild Officers who was on their Thief.

So if Thieves are soooooooo OP then Necromancers must be EXTREMELY overpowered. I don’t see anyone complaining about them, do you? No.

Before you start crying “OP” at the Thief that killed you, understand that there are others who can rip them (as well as you) apart.

Protip, getting owned in all Zerker gear does not make the other class OP.

The more you know.

Overpowered doesn’t mean indestructible.

o·ver·pow·er (vr-pour)
tr.v. o·ver·pow·ered, o·ver·pow·er·ing, o·ver·pow·ers
1. To overcome or vanquish by superior force; subdue.
2. To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm.
3. To supply with excessive mechanical power.

The point that this thread was trying to get at is that people are approaching thieves the wrong way and are not properly specced to deal with them.

Said another way, it’s not that we are OP, its that you don’t exploit our weakness while we exploit yours. It’s a “build win” rather than “your entire class is badly designed, OP!”

The necro example above was an anecdote depicting this “build win.”

Lastly, to all the people screaming THIEVES OP, I would seriously like their opinions on what they would rather have us do instead to be viable. Last I checked we can’t facetank like guards or wars, our healing doesn’t scale as well, we dont have a large health pool or have blocks and a million boons to pop. So of course we area going to run into and out of the battle and exploit our mobility… to expect otherwise is to expect a Ferrari to tow a Mach truck – it’s a beautiful machine but wasn’t built for that

GW2 is becoming a melting pot of skills/dmg/and specialty……soo……gray.

Don’t listen to the underlevelled QQ’ers, pal. They’re just b8’ing you.

Oh great, another thread about that. You know, if you’re looking to reduce the number of… well I hate saying QQ so I’ll remain with ‘frustration’, it is best to not stoke the fire again, again, and again.

PS: I’ve seen people killing other people. Point?

I have seen necromancers tear apart thieves in 5-10 seconds. I have friends who play Thief who don’t have much of a problem with any other profession except the Necromancer. I have Necromancer friends who claim they can rip apart thieves. Last night, a Necromancer was ACTIVELY HUNTING one of my Guild Officers who was on their Thief.

But dude, if you start with this some one could say that you are crying becouse of a necromancer more skilled than you
And you are talking about a class that CANT put stealth and run away or deal tons of damage with skills without recharge time, WITHOUT escape mechanic, WITHOUT any buff sustain etc etc etc. Maybe, with no offence, it’s just time to learn to no press always 2222222, becouse in 8 month ppl started to understand how to duel with thieves, and you can’t pretend to be always at the top of the pyramid.
It’s a game, just chill and enjoy it

@MRMADHZE yeah theieves have no recharge time? they use 2 CnDS then wait 16 seconds for the chance to do it again? yeah no cooldown time :P pffft. btw 50% or more of CNDs miss did u know that? 70% of backstabs miss or hit face or somethign else u didnt mean to. 50% of HS’s actually hit/ are used to hit. and we have no 2nd weapon set. ewll we do but its on the same cooldown. tell u what…..whatever class you are…put skills 1-5 on both sets on the same cooldown. then come yak yak yak at thieves forum. ur not even a thief. go away.

Deamhan.9538:

So what you’re saying is that because thieves have a hard time against one other profession that that profession, which has a difficult time against all the other professions, is even more OP than thieves….

Boy you were just tied to that track and that stupid train just kept runnin’ over ya didn’t it? Just runnin’ over you.

lol I have never heard that one before. Brilliant.

Dear Devs,

Nerf Paper, Scissors is fine though.

Sincerely,
Rock

I can rip most thieves apart on my necro, extremely good thieves can still escape and reset and harass me to death if I let them.

I play both and I’m fine with the thief/necro balance. It’s generally necro vs. boon stacking eles that drove me insane but interestingly the thief meta change is going to help necros and warriors because they don’t stack boons generally.

I think most classes can be OP in the right hands. You can check all my posts, I don’t QQ, but I am concerned. I have noticed a few thieves that do the following:

See me outside of any range and vanish. I don’t move and they remain stealth, avoid marks at me feet and backstab me. I target them, get one swing in and lose my target, stealth. Lay more marks and wait. Eat another backstab (no damage to thief). Friend sees thief vanish AGAIN and decides to wait. Thief proceeds to do the same thing to friend and myself and we never get swings in. Thief got to attack, we didn’t.

Now the reason I posted here is because I hope this is a hacker of some sort, otherwise, what can you do when you can’t hit them? How can a thief stealth that much? I have one and it seems like stealth wears off all too quickly.

In case you missed it, AOEs (at my location and others) could not hit him. He took no damage and wiped 3 above average players in WvW by himself and took ZERO damage.

Can a GOOD thief do this indefinitely? If so, then yes, IMHO it is OP. Also, please explain how to do it (as I have a thief and want to win everytime as well). LOL

Those kitten fearbombs.

Rhoellan.5462:

I think most classes can be OP in the right hands. You can check all my posts, I don’t QQ, but I am concerned. I have noticed a few thieves that do the following:

See me outside of any range and vanish. I don’t move and they remain stealth, avoid marks at me feet and backstab me. I target them, get one swing in and lose my target, stealth. Lay more marks and wait. Eat another backstab (no damage to thief). Friend sees thief vanish AGAIN and decides to wait. Thief proceeds to do the same thing to friend and myself and we never get swings in. Thief got to attack, we didn’t.

Now the reason I posted here is because I hope this is a hacker of some sort, otherwise, what can you do when you can’t hit them? How can a thief stealth that much? I have one and it seems like stealth wears off all too quickly.

In case you missed it, AOEs (at my location and others) could not hit him. He took no damage and wiped 3 above average players in WvW by himself and took ZERO damage.

Can a GOOD thief do this indefinitely? If so, then yes, IMHO it is OP. Also, please explain how to do it (as I have a thief and want to win everytime as well). LOL

I will be speaking from the perspective of a D/P build since that’s what I use, and also what you seemed to have encountered:
“See my outside of any range and stealth” – Definitely

“Avoid marks at my feet and backstab” – This isn’t possible. I’ll still be able to backstab you by dodge rolling through the marks, to your back, then hitting you, but the marks will still be triggered.

“Target him and get one swing in” – Unless you are really slow at targeting or have a very slow weapon (not sure, I don’t have a necro), you should probably be able to get at least 2-3 hits off before stealth can be reapplied.

“Lay more marks again and wait” – I’ll just backstab you the same way, or get out my shortbow and start shooting. After all, you’ve wasted your weapon skills by targeting the ground, and I can simply avoid those spaces.

Summary: What you described is not possible, but a well played thief can certainly come close. If you want to try the build yourself, use D/P. Everyone is using it now, and certainly not because it’s just a fun build (it’s boring).

Forzani.2584:

Deamhan.9538:

So what you’re saying is that because thieves have a hard time against one other profession that that profession, which has a difficult time against all the other professions, is even more OP than thieves….

Boy you were just tied to that track and that stupid train just kept runnin’ over ya didn’t it? Just runnin’ over you.

lol I have never heard that one before. Brilliant.

Really? You need to watch the movie “Spawn”.

Sunflowers.1729:

Rhoellan.5462:

I think most classes can be OP in the right hands. You can check all my posts, I don’t QQ, but I am concerned. I have noticed a few thieves that do the following:

See me outside of any range and vanish. I don’t move and they remain stealth, avoid marks at me feet and backstab me. I target them, get one swing in and lose my target, stealth. Lay more marks and wait. Eat another backstab (no damage to thief). Friend sees thief vanish AGAIN and decides to wait. Thief proceeds to do the same thing to friend and myself and we never get swings in. Thief got to attack, we didn’t.

Now the reason I posted here is because I hope this is a hacker of some sort, otherwise, what can you do when you can’t hit them? How can a thief stealth that much? I have one and it seems like stealth wears off all too quickly.

In case you missed it, AOEs (at my location and others) could not hit him. He took no damage and wiped 3 above average players in WvW by himself and took ZERO damage.

Can a GOOD thief do this indefinitely? If so, then yes, IMHO it is OP. Also, please explain how to do it (as I have a thief and want to win everytime as well). LOL

I will be speaking from the perspective of a D/P build since that’s what I use, and also what you seemed to have encountered:
“See my outside of any range and stealth” – Definitely

“Avoid marks at my feet and backstab” – This isn’t possible. I’ll still be able to backstab you by dodge rolling through the marks, to your back, then hitting you, but the marks will still be triggered.

“Target him and get one swing in” – Unless you are really slow at targeting or have a very slow weapon (not sure, I don’t have a necro), you should probably be able to get at least 2-3 hits off before stealth can be reapplied.

“Lay more marks again and wait” – I’ll just backstab you the same way, or get out my shortbow and start shooting. After all, you’ve wasted your weapon skills by targeting the ground, and I can simply avoid those spaces.

Summary: What you described is not possible, but a well played thief can certainly come close. If you want to try the build yourself, use D/P. Everyone is using it now, and certainly not because it’s just a fun build (it’s boring).

First, you’ll Ned the 20% mark radius increase. I fought a ncero in wvw who’d drop a mark and stand at the edge where i could still backstab w/out triggering his 40 sec CD skill.

Second l2p, use the “target nearest” keybind; you’ll get more hits in. Lol.

Finally, thief is invisible not invulnerable. We’re not talking about guards using renewed focus. That or you might need to befriend spellcheck: not sure which. Thief is definitely beatable using necro; one of the reasons I love necro tpvp.

Edit: my necro is spectral d/d crit build.

Rhoellan.5462:

Can a GOOD thief do this indefinitely? If so, then yes, IMHO it is OP. Also, please explain how to do it (as I have a thief and want to win everytime as well). LOL

Well necro is one of the worst classes for swinging wildly at thin air unless you are equipped with a dagger. Some thieves will melt to conditions while others will remove it/reset the fight as often as you apply it.

I’ve had little success with planting marks preemptively on good thieves and you can only really use them to determine where he is.

Many attacks need a target to be used. With stealth you get invulnerable against all those attacks unless you place yourself next to a mob or other player. And even with attacks you can use, there is a big chance you swing in the wrong direction, because thief is at the same time the most mobile profession.

Stealth, like in every other mmo out there is just absolut bullkitten and thief as it is now is far too easy to play this effectiv with it.
And now playing this “oh i’m not viable any other way”-card is just wrong. Play a ranger, they have a hard time. Thief? No, not the slightest.

Yesterday i fought a D/P thief, and there was litterally NOTHING my necromancer could do to stop him. Once i heard advice ‘STAND IN THE BLACK POWDER’, SO his heartseeker fails to cloack (because it hits you). Didn’t work at all. He did perfect rotation, and once he almost finally died, he just kept spamming cloack in close proximity (so i don’t regen out of combat), but he regened because of trait, and he just outhealed my conditions, went back with full hp (me still empty waiting for cooldowns, and got defeated in the end.

Now this is the cookie cutter thief bield. Any other is easier to counter, if my response times are good. But this build, i’m still trying to figure out how to counter it properly.

You can’t counter it properly. That’s the problem. CC is a straw man argument. Stuns are too few, short lived, and have too long a CD to be effective. The thief has more than most ways to get out of them as well.

While every other class (except mesmers to a certain extent) has to heal and remove conditions while they continue to take damage and get more conditions, the thief refills their hp and removes conditions while safely cloaked.

Thieves need to be restricted to only being able to shadow dance for a min but should have the capability to kill a single player (even a tank guardian) within that min.

One on one, they would be still king. They could manage with 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 if very good players (and the players they are facing are not so good). Beyond that (1 vs 4 or more) and they should pretty much have to run or face defeat (as it should be for all the professions). No profession’s build should allow you to go toe to toe with 4 or more so long as the 4 you are facing are competent enough to finish the personal story.

This is why I only run builds guaranteed to take down thieves. As a mesmer, I either use phantasms which eat them alive as soon as they come out of stealth, or I use retaliation with 2.8k armor and 25k health. They can’t do anything without dying themselves.

But I think it sucks that people are forced to use certain builds specifically to counter thieves. I have a lvl 80 necro that I haven’t yet used in WvW for this purpose. Unless there is a sure way to obtain counterplay to stealth, I’ll just be using my mesmer to punish those thieves who think I’m going to be an easy kill.

And even then I can’t stop them from running away.

It’s funny that i saw this in the necro forums (theives seem OP) lol.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Thieves-seem-more-OP-now-that-before

I dont think theives are OP. But necros are def not OP.

Monoman.2068:

Rhoellan.5462:

Can a GOOD thief do this indefinitely? If so, then yes, IMHO it is OP. Also, please explain how to do it (as I have a thief and want to win everytime as well). LOL

Well necro is one of the worst classes for swinging wildly at thin air unless you are equipped with a dagger. Some thieves will melt to conditions while others will remove it/reset the fight as often as you apply it.

I’ve had little success with planting marks preemptively on good thieves and you can only really use them to determine where he is.

Not to get too far off topic, but necro dagger only has one melee skill. A thief shouldn’t be close enough to cnd most of the fight.

Also on necro, I only preemptively lay marks at choke points. Rest of the time I lay marks smack dab on the thief like I was using a well.

Deamhan.9538:

So what you’re saying is that because thieves have a hard time against one other profession that that profession, which has a difficult time against all the other professions, is even more OP than thieves….

Boy you were just tied to that track and that stupid train just kept runnin’ over ya didn’t it? Just runnin’ over you.

What he is saying, if you actually bothered to understand the context of his message is: It is not a class that is OP just because it has a fighting chance, or even more than a fighting chance against another class… it becomes OP when the other class is not built around dealing with they build of the attacker. For example: The United States has one of the most powerful armies in the world and one of the most technologically advanced. So, to a country like Vietnam, the United States Army seems OP… in reality, however, the United States Army got its kitten smacked by the Viet-Con… why? Because even though the Viet-Con were a less threatening army, they learned to counter the attacks of the United States Army and exploit weaknesses in the Army itself. This, in turn, made the fight more even and it was discovered that neither Army was better than the other… it all came down to tactics.

So, the post makes it clear that before crying about a class being OP… attempt to learn new tactics with your class to overcome the strengths of that so called OP class and learn to exploit the weaknesses of that so called OP class…. that is simple enough, right?

Ruggan.4102:

What he is saying, if you actually bothered to understand the context of his message is: It is not a class that is OP just because it has a fighting chance, or even more than a fighting chance against another class… it becomes OP when the other class is not built around dealing with they build of the attacker. For example: The United States has one of the most powerful armies in the world and one of the most technologically advanced. So, to a country like Vietnam, the United States Army seems OP… in reality, however, the United States Army got its kitten smacked by the Viet-Con… why? Because even though the Viet-Con were a less threatening army, they learned to counter the attacks of the United States Army and exploit weaknesses in the Army itself. This, in turn, made the fight more even and it was discovered that neither Army was better than the other… it all came down to tactics.

So, the post makes it clear that before crying about a class being OP… attempt to learn new tactics with your class to overcome the strengths of that so called OP class and learn to exploit the weaknesses of that so called OP class…. that is simple enough, right?

I could easily wreck a thief who underestimates me while I’m playing a siphoning necro in a room the size of my marks, but that will never be balance. You would have been better off saying this is a rock, paper, scissors game, so stop trying to fight paper with a rock.

I actually don’t have a lot of trouble fighting thieves nor do I think they are op, but can someone break down how to fight a d/p s/d thief anyway? It might help me get the kill instead of him refuging away and then coming to wreck me when I’m not paying attention (I doubt it).

I know full well what he was saying. He was sarcastically stated that if thieves are OP then Necro’s must be godly if they are able to beat them.

By stating such sarcastically, he is implying that thieves are not OP as people claim since they too have a class that gives them trouble.

The logic is beyond flawed especially since what he says only reinforces the point that the shadow dancer is a OP mechanic.

Necro’s only have one class they can do well against
vs
Thieves only have one class they do poor against

However, the truth of the matter is, in order for the other classes to have a decent shot at taking the theif out, they must go with a specific build. Even then, the ‘thief hunter’ has to put in a greater amount of effort in being successful than the thief as to put in to avoid being killed.

Now by going with a build that gives you better odds at countering the thief (better in comparison to other builds the profession can have and even then the odds are still not great), they end up leaving themselves in a state where the other non-thief professions will have an easier time beating them.

Mean while, the thief doesn’t have to go with a specific build to counter a specific profession. The one build, while it can be tweaked to be better vs some professions and weaker vs others, still maintains a minimum level of effectiveness against all other professions. While the mesmer and maybe the ele share this concept, it is to a much lesser extent than the thief.

Why are you bashing necro you idiot? I hate people like you wanting to be able to easily kill every class imaginable. Now that you can easily strip boon with your larcenous strike, you whine for more? /facepalm

difference being you can exit the fight with the necro anytime you want, I have ran from briar to lowlands, with a thief heartseekering my bunker warrior over and over. Is no getting away from them, just have to accept I have a thief for a mini pet.

Zikory.6871:

People want every build and every class to be balanced and that is only going to build a stagnant PvP system.

Exactly what I try to explain to people, thanks.

Frekittenofuman.5084:

Why are you bashing necro you idiot? I hate people like you wanting to be able to easily kill every class imaginable. Now that you can easily strip boon with your larcenous strike, you whine for more? /facepalm

You didn’t even care to understand my post. No matter, though. I explained it at face value before the actual post.

Adaneshade.2409:

Dear Devs,

Nerf Paper, Scissors is fine though.

Sincerely,
Rock

Even though I didn’t intend for this thread to sound that way, this was still hilarious. +1

Why are you writing in an out with capital letters?

Mujen.5287:

Why are you writing in an out with capital letters?

For emphasis.

i write in caps for emphasis on certain words too…..you can use italicized but i like to make mine loud with REAL emphasis …like that

Rastaman.9015:

Zikory.6871:

People want every build and every class to be balanced and that is only going to build a stagnant PvP system.

Exactly what I try to explain to people, thanks.

In that case, I think that certain ranger pets (or even all of them), when active, should allow the ranger to continue to see the thief while they are cloaked. It’s not balanced as it basically makes stealth useless to rangers but hey, unbalanced means it is not stagnant right? So you should be perfectly fine with rangers having this feature.