Guild Wars 2

Let me clarify that i recently played a Thief in sPvP just see why so much people complain about them, i went for the most glass cannon build possible and I can see why people complain about them.

First when I started doing sPvP i found a little absurd getting 2-3shotted by thieves, but I know they are the squishiest ones so I went further in Ranks and I understood how to “beat” them in their own game, nonetheless…

Stealth mechanic its my own gripe its the out of jail free card everyone would love to have, its funny how i went in took 1 down, finished him and still got time to escape.

whats the main problem I mostly see with thieves in PvP? its the Lowest Risk, Highest Reward profession with so many escape abilities mostly by stealth its what makes them the #1 QQ in forums its not their ability to burst down.

let me explain, you can run into a group of enemies, burst down their squishiest profession and escape stealthed, with a CD that its a joke just rinse and repeat, you dont even need tactic to play a thief (honestly) just go in roll your face in keyboard if it doesnt go well just stealth and escape, if you get ganked just stealth and escape if someone is handing your … down, stealth and escape.

it was indeed very funny how they started to argue about how thieves can burst down so fast, yes they can, like they can be bursted down as well, but the mechanic of stealth its pretty much broken giving a “second chance” with a really low CD, making you untargetable along the way.

what i do propose its give stealth mechanic a draw back.

-You move half your speed while stealthed (for example)
- You are in-combat while stealthed (that means no regeneration, no skill switching, move speed in combat)

you can be traced by condition damage, for example if you are bleeding you leave a blood trail.

To me, Stealth mechanic its pretty broken since there is no way to counter it

Inb4: “AoE damage” have luck in a 3D environment guessing in your 400 AoE range where the thieve is, while he is recharging initiative to try to burst you down yet again while your CDs are on.

Im sorry but i can do the exact same in my mesmer and warrior in spvp. It’s all about timing really, doesnt matter what class.

What’s should be noted is that, when im on my thief, i barely pose any presence/threat in the battle other than when im bursting someone and then 36/45 secs again later after cd’s.

On my mesmer, im constantly engaged in the fray, while doing considerable amount of burst comparable to thieves and doing it as an aoe.

On my warrior, im constantly sniping people with my f1(10/8 secs cd) using rifle and when the time comes, BOOM! frenzied 100b.

its not about thief’s broken blah blah blah…

3 seconds of stealth is game breaking now?

We can stack up to 10 seconds but that also requires using a) Shadow Refuge (60 second cooldown) or b) Using CnD on a mob then following up with Hide in Shadows (which blows our 30 second cooldown heal).

And it’s only the #1 QQ on the forums because you aren’t reading the sPvP section. We’re laughed out of most organized PvP events, it’s only in WvWvW that players with little understanding of combat mechanics complain.

I’d also like to actively see your face “roll” across the keyboard. I would imagine that most of the in-game menus would pop up preventing you from seeing your screen.

you could post an screen to see your contribution at the end of the match
as far as i see it troll post 1 / 10

i just made an ranger went spvp and i hit 12k dmg on an enemy
then i made an warrior bursted down 5 enemy’s at same time
i won spvp as mesmer with all my team afk

@Wilhelmryan.9203

You are obviously lyin, simply because if you played those classes enough you wouldn’t be saying this, now I want proof, a screen with your amount of matches won as a mesmer/warrior and your pvp rank, else I won’t believe you.

@GlockworK.2954

When I play a thief I do a number of actions that, tactically speaking, other classes would never EVER do:

-being able to kill in 5-6 hits most non-tank built players with no risk, as I get free hits while engaging stealthed
-rushing into unaware groups of players fighting just to score an F-finish stealthed
-travelling half the map stealthed timing my utilities skills (yes I use the heal too, c’mon you telling me you don’t burn it for the stealth when you feel the need? seriously?)
-trick my opponents in following me while I stealth and get past their backs to capture the point

Now these actions, would be crazy to consider while playing any other class, as it has no real cost on a thief and you can keep running all the way as you wish, while playing on any other class would mean pretty sure death.

This pretty much sums what the first poster wanted to discuss.

Rfreak.6591:

@Wilhelmryan.9203

You are obviously lyin, simply because if you played those classes enough you wouldn’t be saying this, now I want proof, a screen with your amount of matches won as a mesmer/warrior and your pvp rank, else I won’t believe you.

@GlockworK.2954

When I play a thief I do a number of actions that, tactically speaking, other classes would never EVER do:

-being able to kill in 5-6 hits most non-tank built players with no risk, as I get free hits while engaging stealthed
-rushing into unaware groups of players fighting just to score an F-finish stealthed
-travelling half the map stealthed timing my utilities skills (yes I use the heal too, c’mon you telling me you don’t burn it for the stealth when you feel the need? seriously?)
-trick my opponents in following me while I stealth and get past their backs to capture the point

Now these actions, would be crazy to consider while playing any other class, as it has no real cost on a thief and you can keep running all the way as you wish, while playing on any other class would mean pretty sure death.

This pretty much sums what the first poster wanted to discuss.

^ This

You got my point instead of “trolling” like the guy above you who won as Mesmer against 5-8 people since his whole team was afk >_>…. ….

my solution would be making stealth last indefinitely while out of combat but make it break on taking damage so it can be used to initiate but not for escaping. just my 2 cents

First I would like to point out if we go stealth we don’t instantly drop combat and start reg. Second, if we were to move slowly in stealth it would pretty much make stealth useless as stealth is how we do surprise attacks and we cant do that if we cant catch the people we are trying to hit.

Stealth is not broken. Rendering is. Once they fix the rendering thieves will be fine. We might actually need a buff to be honest, at the very least glass cannon builds will be very hard to run without them being suicide builds.

Right now the rendering problem is adding an extra 2-3 seconds onto our stealth which gives us an unfair advantage of being able to get people down to 75 or even 50% without them even being able to see us. I was walking around on my engineer the other day in wvw and a thief ganked me from behind he got me to about 33% of my hp before I saw him. But once I saw him I destroyed him. Fix the rendering and you fix the QQing.

I would also like to point out to everyone who isn’t a thief that thieves are very limited as to what they can do. I don’t mean by builds I mean by playing style. We have to focus one person down and we have to do it quickly and quietly. Our only AoE is from the shortbow and that is very limited. Fighting 1 on 1 is what we are made for and being able to escape is how we avoid getting sucked into fights we will never win.

Stealth is not god-mode. We still take damage, we are still subject to AoE pulls and roots. Use your brain and you can stop thieves.

Denial Of Service.5732:

Let me clarify that i recently played a Thief in sPvP …

…it was indeed very funny how they started to argue about how thieves can burst down so fast, yes they can, like they can be bursted down as well, but the mechanic of stealth its pretty much broken giving a “second chance” with a really low CD, making you untargetable along the way.

what i do propose its give stealth mechanic a draw back.

-You move half your speed while stealthed (for example)
- You are in-combat while stealthed (that means no regeneration, no skill switching, move speed in combat)

you can be traced by condition damage, for example if you are bleeding you leave a blood trail.

To me, Stealth mechanic its pretty broken since there is no way to counter it

Inb4: “AoE damage” have luck in a 3D environment guessing in your 400 AoE range where the thieve is, while he is recharging initiative to try to burst you down yet again while your CDs are on.

I love how (almost) EVERYONE who complains vs a class starts off the post with “I played a [class], so I know what I’m talking about”.

I just wanted to clear a few things up. Untargetable =/= Unhitable. A lot of people (not necessarily you) don’t make that distinction. This can be helped by either calculated guesses or lucky shots, but in either case, they will only remain like this for a few seconds (unless they use all their utility/traits to increase their stealth uptime). I’ll also add “Blame rendering”, even though everyone seems to be saying this. It’s a flaw in the game atm, and hopefully it will be fixed soon. I’m also in favour of them preventing the CnD queue -> mug -> CnD hit -> BS combo which also seems to be causing most of the rage vs thieves on forums.

We are in combat while stealthed. Any health regen/move speed we get is from traits. This also means we cannot swap skills after stealthing.

If we were to move slower while in stealth (and I’m not entirely against this) they would need to increase the amount of time our average stealth skill lasts, as 3secs of stealth at 50% move speed would kind of defeat the purpose of going into stealth.

Condition trails are a neat idea, but with the number of conditions being tossed around, this game might start looking like a Quentin Tarantino film then a Guild Wars game.

Lastly, anyone who says stealth has no counters really needs to L2P (sorry).

Rfreak.6591:

@Wilhelmryan.9203

You are obviously lyin, simply because if you played those classes enough you wouldn’t be saying this, now I want proof, a screen with your amount of matches won as a mesmer/warrior and your pvp rank, else I won’t believe you.

@GlockworK.2954

When I play a thief I do a number of actions that, tactically speaking, other classes would never EVER do:

-being able to kill in 5-6 hits most non-tank built players with no risk, as I get free hits while engaging stealthed
-rushing into unaware groups of players fighting just to score an F-finish stealthed
-travelling half the map stealthed timing my utilities skills (yes I use the heal too, c’mon you telling me you don’t burn it for the stealth when you feel the need? seriously?)
-trick my opponents in following me while I stealth and get past their backs to capture the point

Now these actions, would be crazy to consider while playing any other class, as it has no real cost on a thief and you can keep running all the way as you wish, while playing on any other class would mean pretty sure death.

This pretty much sums what the first poster wanted to discuss.

Yep this pretty much sums up what thieves can do, and Nobody would consider these actions while playing other classes because they are not thieves, that’s just silly.

engaging in stealth is one way to get free hits, but you do realize that it’s only effective if the person is unaware? ex. when an enemy player is preoccupied with your teammate, then of course you can get free hits, you don’t even have to stealth.

I don’t understand what you consider as “cost on a thief” when you are fighting “unaware groups of players”. Any class can kill anyone according to that logic, so next time you baddies make sure you are “aware” when you are playing a game where it is possible to “die” and “get killed”.

There’s many ways available to travel across a map, depending on the class.

I don’t understand the tricking part. I thought the goal was to capture nodes? If you were to capture a point that the other team already own, wouldn’t you think that it’s possible for them to come and defend it? maybe they are preoccupied with capturing your own points? if that’s the case then aren’t they doing the same thing as you? and maybe you are the one getting tricked?

This post (the OP) shows a saddening lack of understanding about tactics. I’m doubting that a reasonable post will have any impact, but just in case I’m going to respond reasonably.

Stealth is just like anything else. If you want to beat it, you have to do something to counter it. What you’re saying is just like someone saying that condition builds are overpowered just because a Warrior can stack 21k damage worth of bleeding in two attacks. That might be true, but take some condition removal and you can easily counter that. The power of stealth can be lowered significantly by countering it.

Here are some skills that counter stealth. A “Hard” counter is something that you can use to counter stealth after the thief has stealthed. You should be able to hit the thief in stealth, assuming you’re quick and you’ve been paying attention. A “Soft” counter is something you can use to counter stealth before the thief has entered stealth. Use soft counters while you beat on them, and either they won’t be able to enter stealth or they won’t be able to escape while they’re in stealth.

Elementalist
Hard

• Static Field
• Earthquake

Soft

• Shockwave
• Magnetic Grasp
• Gale
• Signet of Earth

Engineer
Hard

• Glue Shot

Soft

• Net Shot
• Net Turret
• Net Attack
• Glue Bomb

Guardian
Hard

• Binding Blade -> Pull
• Ring of Warding

Soft

• Zealots Embrace
• Chains of Light
• Signet of Wrath
• Bane Signet
• Hammer of Wisdom -> Command

Mesmer
Hard:

• Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void

Soft:

• Signet of Domination
• Magic Bullet
• Illusionary Leap -> Swap

Necromancer
Soft:

• Dark Pact
• Doom
• Reaper’s Mark

Ranger
Hard:

• Entangle

Soft:

• Muddy Terrain
• Stone Spirit -> Quicksand
• Any Traps

Thief
Soft:

• Surprise Shot
• Needle Trap
• Tripwire
• Devourer Venom
• Basilisk Venom

Warrior
Hard:

• Earthshaker
• Tremor

Soft:

• Backbreaker
• Pin Down
• Skull Crack
• Bull’s Charge
• Bolas
• “Fear Me!”
• Any cripple skill with the Leg Specialist trait.

Now add to this list any of the many cripple and chill effects in this game. They’re not quite as strong as immobilize or a hard control, but they’ll make it so that the thief can’t flee very far while in stealth. Once they leave stealth, they should still be close enough for you to give chase. You can also use dazes to prevent a thief from entering stealth, giving you a few more seconds to beat on them.

Finally, you can just spam AoE damage. This won’t work if a thief is running away in stealth, but if they’re still attacking you then it will punish them for being in stealth. They’ll take damage just like you.

Rfreak.6591:

-being able to kill in 5-6 hits most non-tank built players with no risk, as I get free hits while engaging stealthed

There’s plenty of risk. We can still get killed. Also, only one of those hits occurs while stealthed unless the fight is more than 5s long. And we can easily be hit while in stealth using AoEs.

Rfreak.6591:

-rushing into unaware groups of players fighting just to score an F-finish stealthed

So can any other class with a stability/immunity skill. See Elementalist with Mist Form, for example. This only works on people who aren’t paying attention. If they see you stealth and they don’t interrupt you, it’s because they suck. Other classes can get a stomp off in a way that is literally impossible to stop.

Rfreak.6591:

travelling half the map stealthed timing my utilities skills (yes I use the heal too, c’mon you telling me you don’t burn it for the stealth when you feel the need? seriously?)

Sure, you can do that. But then you show up at a fight with no healing skill and no stealth. That means that your vaunted thief escape ability is gone, because you spent all of the skills getting there. I don’t see how that’s unfair; you used up three skill slots for the ability to travel in stealth for a while, and in exchange you don’t get any survivability or utility in the fight when you get there.

Rfreak.6591:

-trick my opponents in following me while I stealth and get past their backs to capture the point

So can other classes (see mesmer). Anyways, once they see you vanish and then see the point ticking down, they’re going to know what happened. Contrast this with the fact that we can’t cap points while in stealth, and a thief with any reliance on stealth can’t attack or defend a point at all.

Oh, and finally, a quote from Jonathan Sharp:

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, quickly, on the design philosophy at play here (you can feel free to disagree, but this is what I feel):

We want the Thief to be the class that most “slips through your fingers”. Other classes like the Ele and Mes have some of it too (and rightly so), but if anyone is escaping a fight, that should be a slippery Thief.

…for other classes (Thief, Ele, Mes) to be more about escaping and mobility.

The thief’s ability to escape combat is working as intended. That’s how they wanted to design the class.

@Dacromir
I agree with everything you said in the “soft-hard counter” section, but wanted to add 1 thing to your Thief list.
Getting the drop on a Thief or landing your opener is probably the best tactic in the entire game to kill Thieves. They just melt under any sort of pressure.

Fixeon.5076:

First I would like to point out if we go stealth we don’t instantly drop combat and start reg. Second, if we were to move slowly in stealth it would pretty much make stealth useless as stealth is how we do surprise attacks and we cant do that if we cant catch the people we are trying to hit.

Stealth is not broken. Rendering is. Once they fix the rendering thieves will be fine. We might actually need a buff to be honest, at the very least glass cannon builds will be very hard to run without them being suicide builds.

Right now the rendering problem is adding an extra 2-3 seconds onto our stealth which gives us an unfair advantage of being able to get people down to 75 or even 50% without them even being able to see us. I was walking around on my engineer the other day in wvw and a thief ganked me from behind he got me to about 33% of my hp before I saw him. But once I saw him I destroyed him. Fix the rendering and you fix the QQing.

I would also like to point out to everyone who isn’t a thief that thieves are very limited as to what they can do. I don’t mean by builds I mean by playing style. We have to focus one person down and we have to do it quickly and quietly. Our only AoE is from the shortbow and that is very limited. Fighting 1 on 1 is what we are made for and being able to escape is how we avoid getting sucked into fights we will never win.

Stealth is not god-mode. We still take damage, we are still subject to AoE pulls and roots. Use your brain and you can stop thieves.

All of this is 100% correct. Well, except for “Fix the rendering and you fix the QQing.”. Bads will still be bads.

Also if you stealth away from combat you can sometimes get stuck in combat and not be able to get health regen again until the targets you were fighting are all dead or you leave the map. I don’t know if this is a bug or how it’s intended to work, but it’s worth noting.

@Dacromir

I’ll keep it constructive ok but consider also this:

Elementalist
•Static Field-you need the right weapon
•Earthquake-again, the right weapon

Soft
•Shockwave
•Magnetic Grasp
•Gale
•Signet of Earth
For the above I’d like to remind how hard it is to target guys that usually try to backstab you, consider the camera angle, and also count the fact that invisible opponents aren’t targetable, while most elementalist’ skills need one, so now you’ll say: hey what about AoEs? they take time to cast, and the thief won’t let you, a good one at least wouldn’t.
If you ever happen to fight a thief that traited immobilize and you’r not ready to switch to water (either it’s in cooldown) to cure the conditions with your water spells trait then… you’r doomed.

Engineer
Hard
•Glue Shot-are you trying to fight him or runnig away only to get backstabbed later because he’ll chase you down stealthed?

Soft
•Net Shot-very hard to hit, maybe unaware thieves, but you’ll still need a target
•Net Turret-same
•Net Attack-same
•Glue Bomb-like glue shot
While I don’t agree that those things you mentioned should counter a thief by themselves I’d agree to the fact that bombs in general are a good counter, and they are usually the must, with smoke bomb on top of the cake.

Guardian-no guardian can be killed by thieves, not an average one at least

Mesmer
Hard:
•Temporal Curtain → Into the Void-hard to place, won’t have the time

Soft:
•Signet of Domination-this works I’ll give you that, this gives you enough time to counter unless you get dazed/stunned
•Magic Bullet-a bit harder to place, you’ll need a target and it works better at distance
•Illusionary Leap → Swap-VERY hard to do, especially when getting focused and you should at least create a non-blastable-clone and maybe burn it for distortion.

Necromancer
Soft:
•Dark Pact-too slow to place effectively and you’ll need the guy in front of you
•Doom-works, but lasts WAY too short, the guy will be back in no time
•Reaper’s Mark-works, greatly at that, because you can place it effectively without the need of the target, it just takes a bit of prediction but if you run in a direction, the thief is bound to follow you, another way is to duck at one place and w8 for him to try and shadow-step at you

Necromancers in general have a way vs thieves in 1v1, because of the fears and death shroud, but I’d also point out flesh golem, which can help you after you apply fear knocking down the thief (again, mostly 1v1) for a few seconds, giving you enough time to counter him.

Ranger
Hard:
•Entangle-you’ll need the target

Soft:
•Muddy Terrain-helps, but considering you are a ranger you deserve better stuff to counter melee
•Stone Spirit → Quicksand-too random
•Any Traps-plenty agree to this

While rangers may sound a bit gimmick and their traps may not sound enough, I want to point out another weakness: pets are quite annoying for the thieves, not just them hurting you, but also how the target-system works (well, at least some option settings in the menu), thieves may usually end up killing your pet rather than you (LOL)

Thief
Soft:
•Surprise Shot-it’s a stealth skill, you have to stealth before, also, you need this weapon to access immobilize
•Needle Trap-almost never used, but it is effective, though stealth might be more useful
•Tripwire-never used, doesn’t give you enough “edge”, kinda wastes a slot for an useful stealth skill
•Devourer Venom-utility wasted, especially on melee
•Basilisk Venom-it’ll last a bit short, but if you are another glass-cannon then he deserves this, even thought you should stealth instead (this usually works)

Warrior
Hard:
•Earthshaker-it’s a burst skill, kinda hard to pull off, a li slow, but works if used correctly
•Tremor-works but it’ll usually lead to the thief stealth-running away

Soft:
•Backbreaker-slow, melee, hard to land
•Pin Down-works but hard to aim on invisible thieves
•Skull Crack-burst skill, melee, too hard to use
•Bull’s Charge-works if the thief dares to run unstealthed
•Bolas-works
•“Fear Me!”-works
•Any cripple skill with the Leg Specialist trait.

You didn’t list Stomp, it works wonders and iz AoE.

Why is it that I feel comfortable engaging 5+ people solo on my Thief in WvW and for the most part can down/kill one to all and get away but at the same time I can run into individuals that have amazing 1 on 1 fights that last minutes. Or I can run into a duo that completely stomps me into the ground without me even having a chance?

The answer is Thieves are the very best class at “pubstomping”. This is murdering people with any following attributes (lots of times many of them): unorganized, under-leveled, under-geared, unskilled or uneducated (of game mechanics).

Once players of almost all classes (accept rangers I don’t think they ever have a chance) lack all of those attributes thieves are well and balanced (assuming you don’t run into a counter build). This is why Anet (thankfully) balances based around organized sPvP and not WvW or general forums.

Watch any organized sPvP videos (tourneys now) from a thief and you won’t see them taking on more than their numbers. There is a reason for that.

For the above I’d like to remind how hard it is to target guys that usually try to backstab you, consider the camera angle

How do you mean? I see the camera angle as actually being in your favor. In most games you wouldn’t see much behind you but in GW2 the camera is positioned in such a way that if you look slightly down you see as much behind you as you do in front of you.

Stealth is certainly an issue in targeting, sure, but once the rendering bugs are fixed it will be a very temporary issue.

It’s not what you see from the camera angle, it’s what skills you can activate to hit behind you! only engineers can do that placing bombs effectively, by the time you turn your camera and start doing your thing the thief already has a great advantage of 10k on you if flame/air sigils activated (and they usually do).

Would you mind sharing with us the amount of matches you won on other classes bwillb? and what rank are you?

Trolling? Cause u have 3 sec stealth, low armour and health.. Ad then just pray that you hit your target.

then how comes ppl with more health and armor still get blasted in seconds while not doing as much damage? like, not even half?

How comes they can effectively come in and out of combat through stealth?

Rfreak.6591:

It’s not what you see from the camera angle, it’s what skills you can activate to hit behind you! only engineers can do that placing bombs effectively, by the time you turn your camera and start doing your thing the thief already has a great advantage of 10k on you if flame/air sigils activated (and they usually do).

Would you mind sharing with us the amount of matches you won on other classes bwillb? and what rank are you?

You do turn with the mouse don’t you? If you don’t have a flick that you are conditioned to that is a perfect 180 then you are at a disadvantage. Just like a FPS.

Rfreak.6591:

It’s not what you see from the camera angle, it’s what skills you can activate to hit behind you!

The person i quoted specifically said camera angle. Also, if only there were a keybind you could press that would automatically turn you around 180 degrees… oh wait.

It’s really a shame that the ignore function on this forum doesn’t work. The thief forums would be completely clear of nerf herding with no more than 15 ignore slots used for the people who can’t figure out how to use simple things like this.

Edit: Wait, that person was you. Are you so brain damaged that you don’t even know what you yourself said now?

bwillb.2165:

Rfreak.6591:

It’s not what you see from the camera angle, it’s what skills you can activate to hit behind you!

The person i quoted specifically said camera angle. Also, if only there were only a keybind you could press that would automatically turn you around 180 degrees… oh wait.

It’s really a shame that the ignore function on this forum doesn’t work. The thief forums would be completely clear of nerf herding with no more than 15 ignore slots used for the people who can’t figure out how to use simple things like this.

I guess Anet didn’t forget about keyboard turners after all.

First off, I’d like to clarify what I meant. All of those counters I listed are things that allow you to prevent the thief from stealthing or prevent the thief from moving while they’re stealthed (essentially the same thing). That alone will not counter a thief; it only counters the stealth. However, once they’re controlled, you’re free to kill them. A thief with the type of stealth and damage OP is talking about has minimal control/utility/defense if you can counter their stealth.

Anything where you say:

Rfreak.6591:

you need the right weapon

That’s fine. That’s because all weapons have different strengths and weaknesses. If you didn’t take anything to counter stealth, that was an educated choice you made.

Rfreak.6591:

For the above I’d like to remind how hard it is to target guys that usually try to backstab you, consider the camera angle, and also count the fact that invisible opponents aren’t targetable, while most elementalist’ skills need one, so now you’ll say: hey what about AoEs? they take time to cast, and the thief won’t let you, a good one at least wouldn’t.

That’s fine. Once you survive the initial BS burst, they’ll be targetable. A thief is going to have a minimum of 3s in which you can target them in between each stealth, which is plenty of time to stun/knockdown/immobilize.

Rfreak.6591:

If you ever happen to fight a thief that traited immobilize and you’r not ready to switch to water (either it’s in cooldown) to cure the conditions with your water spells trait then… you’r doomed.

Once again, not a problem. If you every fight a condition spec and you don’t have conditions, you’re doomed. If you ever fight a warrior and don’t take stun breaks, you’re doomed. Simple fact of GW2 PvP: in order to survive, you need some sort of counter against stealth, conditions, burst damage, and stuns. If you choose to leave one of those out, that’s fine, but recognize that whatever you chose not to counter will beat you easily.

Rfreak.6591:

•Glue Shot-are you trying to fight him or runnig away only to get backstabbed later because he’ll chase you down stealthed?

You’re trying to get him to hold still long enough for you to kill him. The type of thief you guys seem to be talking about (glass cannon) dies in just a few hits. Thieves are the squishiest class in the game.

Rfreak.6591:

•Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void-hard to place, won’t have the time

I’ve seen many a good mesmer use this to destroy a thief. It takes a second to place the curtain, but AFAIK Into the Void is insta-cast. This is a great AoE pull and it will keep the thief from escaping (follow up with other controls and damage).

Entangle-you’ll need the target

The wiki says that Entangle “targets all foes around the ranger” with a 600" range. That would make it the single most powerful stealth counter in the game. If the wiki is wrong, test it to double-check and then fix the wiki.

Rfreak.6591:

•Needle Trap-almost never used, but it is effective, though stealth might be more useful
•Tripwire-never used, doesn’t give you enough “edge”, kinda wastes a slot for an useful stealth skill

I don’t care if you use them or not. They are effective counters to something OP claims cannot be countered. Whose fault is it if people choose not to use those counters.

Also, Tripwire is fantastic. It’s a 3s knockdown followed by a 2s cripple, and it’s on a really short cooldown.

Rfreak.6591:

•Devourer Venom-utility wasted, especially on melee

Not wasted. This will prevent the thief from stealthing and/or moving while in stealth for 4-9s (depending on build). Definitely a strong stealth counter.

•Earthshaker-it’s a burst skill, kinda hard to pull off, a li slow, but works if used correctly
•Tremor-works but it’ll usually lead to the thief stealth-running away

Both of these skills will knockdown a thief for half of their stealth duration. That leaves them with only 2s of stealth, which isn’t long enough to escape. Stealth successfully countered!

•Backbreaker-slow, melee, hard to land
•Pin Down-works but hard to aim on invisible thieves
•Skull Crack-burst skill, melee, too hard to use
•Bull’s Charge-works if the thief dares to run unstealthed

Individually, those could be avoided. However, in tandem with other stealth counters it’s very possible for a warrior to completely lock down a thief while killing them.

Wow you fanboys are good a flaming, too bad you didn’t point out a single thing that would cripple the fact that thieves have a GREAT advantage at stealthing, and when I’m saying stealth I don’t mean just a single spec, but the stealth alone is often enough to do almost everything

and before Dacromir tries to flame me: “counters” usually need a target, fine with AoE you still have to hit’em, they are fast, can you land those AoEs before they have the time to run away? and how many times in % would you succeed at that?

Rfreak.6591:

Wow you fanboys are good a flaming, too bad you didn’t point out a single thing that would cripple the fact that thieves have a GREAT advantage at stealthing, and when I’m saying stealth I don’t mean just a single spec, but the stealth alone is often enough to do almost everything

Stealth pros:

• Escape a fight
• Sneak up on people
• Disorient the enemy
• Instagib low-skill players

Stealth cons:

• Makes attacking or defending a point in sPvP impossible.
• Uses up utility slots, so we have minimal utility/defense
• Does nothing against AoE damage
• Countered with control abilities

It certainly does not “do everything”. It’s a tool for escaping a fight, messing with your enemy’s head, and being sneaky. That’s exactly what the thief was meant to be able to do, and I don’t see how that’s a problem. It’s very possible (even easy, once you learn) to counter it, and it requires a sacrifice of defense/utility/damage from the thief.

Also, I’m sad that this discussion degraded. OP made a post, I refuted it with reasoning. You refuted me with reasoning. I refuted you with reasoning. You exploded, accused me of flaming, and made wide, sweeping statements with no reasoning to back it up. I was actually impressed at the level of discourse we had for a moment there, but oh well.

EDIT: Since we’re editing posts to add more…

Rfreak.6591:

“counters” usually need a target

Yes. So target the thief. They get one hit from stealth, and then you can target them for at least three seconds. Plenty of time to lock them down. (Hint: look for the “stealth exit” animation. It shows up even if the thief hasn’t rendered, and using a skill will auto-target them)

Rfreak.6591:

with AoE you still have to hit’em

Yes, you do. This is the skill portion of the game. But if you do hit them, it works.

Rfreak.6591:

can you land those AoEs before they have the time to run away?

Sometimes. It helps that I have a lot of time on my thief and I’m pretty good at guessing where they’re going to go. It also helps to react quickly.

Rfreak.6591:

and how many times in % would you succeed at that?

I’ve never given it thought. As a thief, I counter thieves by stealthing when they do and dazing them when they exit, so that they can never hit me. But I’ve played with people who can keep a thief from leaving with greater than 50% success.

Anyways, even if they do manage escape a fight, that’s okay. That’s what they’re designed to do, it’s vulnerable to control, and it requires a sacrifice of defense/utility/damage on the thief’s part.

Rfreak.6591:

before Dacromir tries to flame me

You need to learn what “flame” means. I’m repressing my urges to become angry, and I’m responding rationally and respectfully to your posts. I’m treating you as if you have a real opinion worth listening to, and logically and reasonably presenting my opinion in contrast. I’ve done my absolute best to keep this discussion constructive, in hopes that someone can learn something from it.

stealth alone is often enough to do almost everything

What you mean I can just hit stealth and you automatically fall over waiting for me to end your downed state? Well kitten, why did no one tell me this before!

bwillb you see? you are a troll for what you’ve just said

Rfreak.6591:

bwillb you see? you are a troll for what you’ve just said

Not really. He was facetiously pointing out a flaw in an argument you made, i.e. that stealth cannot “do everything”. The tone may have been a little humorous, but he still made a valid point.

You, however, appear to have been reduced to Ad Hominem and Straw Man attacks.

@Dacromir

So you support the troll? it’s obvious that in my statement I was pointing out what I mentioned in my first post on this topic, yes, you are supposed to read the whole thing be4 starting an argument on others.

bwillb you see? you are a troll for what you’ve just said

You’ve stopped giving rational arguments, so yes, I’m now having some fun at your expense It’s not like you listen to reason when it’s presented to you.

I didn’t stop I simply refuse to feed the troll any longer, why should I bother even copy-pasting stuff in this very page?

Rfreak.6591:

I didn’t stop I simply refuse to feed the troll any longer, why should I bother even copy-pasting stuff in this very page?

You’re right, you didn’t stop, because you never started. From the very beginning you knew you were wrong, and just recently you’ve started to get too lazy to keep up the charade so you resort to calling any evidence against your claims a troll. I see that a lot in politics here in the US. It’s okay, I don’t blame you, it’s only human nature.

Now you are directly attacking me, and I’d like to remind you, that you tried to compare mesmer’s mass invisibility to thieves’ stealth, now which makes more sense? me giving plenty reasons to nerf something about the thief (while buffing other mechanincs for this class too) or you trying to accuse people for being right, because no matter what people told you in this and other multiple topics, you keep ignoring their posts and basically making fun of us, also, it’s easy to track your posts and I suggest a mod to investigate, maybe even close a topic or 2 before the flame goes on.

Infiltrator’s strike is BS op. I will say that. I have a Thief as my recently retired main because it just became too boring.

Infiltrator’s strike the sword #2 ability… You’re basically invincible in WvW. All you do is lead with #2 from out of range. So you don’t actually get to your target with the 2 key. But that puts your return circle even farther back from the fighting. Run around like kitten and attack everything you can in 15 seconds. Get below half HP press 2 again and you are safely behind your team. Rinse repeat because the ability has no CD and you initiative regens so quickly.

They need to seriously reconsider the whole initiative mechanic. It is so bad and completely goes against every other ability precedent in the game. Just admit it seemed like a better idea on paper and turned out terrible in execution. Round the class with set cooldowns rather than spamming as much burst as possible and make the class more fun to play.

Rfreak.6591:

Now you are directly attacking me, and I’d like to remind you, that you tried to compare mesmer’s mass invisibility to thieves’ stealth, now which makes more sense? me giving plenty reasons to nerf something about the thief (while buffing other mechanincs for this class too) or you trying to accuse people for being right, because no matter what people told you in this and other multiple topics, you keep ignoring their posts and basically making fun of us, also, it’s easy to track your posts and I suggest a mod to investigate, maybe even close a topic or 2 before the flame goes on.

Yup, I’m attacking you. I was civil about the whole situation until last night. But that obviously doesn’t work when you’re dealing against someone who is as underhanded as you are. Facts don’t work when the enemy has ignorance and apathy on their side. I’m tired of it. You and about 14 other people have been here every day for as long as I can remember, trying to get various aspects of the thief nerfed, trying to make it seem like everyone is getting steamrolled by thieves when in fact almost all of the population is getting by just fine with the current situation. As soon as Arenanet listens to you and nerfs one aspect, you move on to another. I’ve had it with that. Arenanet can’t see what you’re doing, so the only way to make it obvious is with all-out war. Call you out on every count. Make the problem so obvious that they have to do something about it, because they’re too blind to see it on their own.

As for your little “comparison”

me giving plenty reasons to nerf something about the thief (while buffing other mechanincs for this class too)

You’ve given very few, if any, valid reasons for a nerf. Any logical reponse proving your evidence false gets labeled a troll. And for wanting to buff thieves’ other mechanics? Yeah, you said that bug fixes have to come before the buffs. And that the nerfs have to come before the bug fixes. I pointed out that both the nerfs and the buffs should come after the bug fixes and you, surprise surprise, resorted to calling me a troll. Shocking.

I called you a troll because you sounded way too… agreeing? with the thing about fixing bugs first and then nerfing, when the only bug that I see noticable in the thieves is the rendering issue, which I don’t think happens for every1.

And not only that, you tried to compare mass invisibility to stealth, and the VERY conditional burst damage a mesmer can dish to any thieves’ skill, to me, is plenty clear you are trolling, because that’s what a troll usually does, if not then try to prove your experience with the game with a number of wins most ppl wouldn’t achieve solely by “trying out” other classes.

Also I get the feeling you might have forgotten some of my posts in other topics which should justify my arguments to a level way above the things you tried to mask as “not so overwhelming” or “nerf that and we are left with nothing” or more useless calculations that prove nothing, cause that’s just numbers on paper, reality’s different.

If you want to go on then do it, I’ll stop since you think I’m offending you or smtg, I kept it as constructive as I could, I guess I’m sorry if you think I’m your enemy, me or you alone won’t change a thing, but still topics 500 posts long will surely be noticable by mods and devs.

@OP

You realise thieves still take damage while in stealth right?

Rfreak.6591:

but still topics 500 posts long will surely be noticable by mods and devs.

Plzzzzz… If ANet balanced the game around all these pub scrub QQ threads, thieves only weapons would be pillows and stealth would not exist.

If they want to balance the game, they should focus on tPvP. You know for people that have a basic grasp on counters.

Rfreak.6591:

I called you a troll because you sounded way too… agreeing? with the thing about fixing bugs first and then nerfing, when the only bug that I see noticable in the thieves is the rendering issue, which I don’t think happens for every1.

Do you always call people trolls for agreeing with you? If the only bug that you see as noticeable for thieves is the rendering issue, then what’s the problem? Fix the rendering issue, and then see where the balance lies after we’ve had time to play as intended, and THEN nerf things that are still too powerful and buff things that are still too weak until they reach a comfortable middleground.

And not only that, you tried to compare mass invisibility to stealth,

I gave Mass Invisibility as a counter to the argument thatonly thieves are OP because only thieves have stealth. That’s actually one of many that the mesmer has.
Thief stealth skills: Cloak And Dagger, Hide In Shadows, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Shadow Trap.
Mesmer stealth skills: The Prestige, Decoy, Veil, Mass Invisibility.

and the VERY conditional burst damage a mesmer can dish to any thieves’ skill,

The level of burst that people are quoting on thief is very conditional as well. Backstab, the thief’s most bursty skill, with a pure glass cannon build, when everything goes off perfectly, does about 7-8k damage. The numbers quoted anywhere from 10k to 22k only happen in very rare instances, if at all. It may even be a bug that it occasionally goes that high, and if it is a bug, fine, fix the bug and then see where we stand. But with the more reasonable, more common 7-8k damage, that’s two weapon skills, two utility skills (or three if you break the first stun), an elite skill, and the class specialty skill, going into that attack. 6 initiative and 4 cooldowns, at least one of which is at or near 45 seconds, to get a 7-8k backstab, with an additional 2k for mug and CnD if they also manage to crit. And that’s if the target is is a caster and doing absolutely nothing to try to prevent incoming damage.

to me, is plenty clear you are trolling, because that’s what a troll usually does

What a troll usually does is try to rile people up, and hurt others without provocation. That’s what you’ve been doing, along with a little over a dozen other people who have been trolling the thief forums, trying to create issues where there are none, for the last couple months.

Wreckdum.8367:

They need to seriously reconsider the whole initiative mechanic. It is so bad and completely goes against every other ability precedent in the game. Just admit it seemed like a better idea on paper and turned out terrible in execution. Round the class with set cooldowns rather than spamming as much burst as possible and make the class more fun to play.

I get so tired of this argument.

A thief with a full bar of initiative can ‘spam’ three or four attacks AT MOST before running out and having to wait for regeneration or using utilities to augment their initiative. People perceive this as spam, as a thief can use the same attack several times in a row.

Lets compare this to other classes. Four attacks, swap weapons, four attacks. A total of eight attacks in the time a thief can get off three or four, maybe five if they have regenerated enough initiative.

Additionally, Anet have stated they want the thief to be a mobile burst class.

I can only imagine how people complained in every other MMO where stealth didnt last 4 secs but remained until the player didnt require it any more

GW2 has it bad in the forums right now

Stealth is not that powerful. First of all it’s only for 4 seconds at a time maximum, and that requires points in the toughness trait line for the thief, which really doesn’t do much for them because the only difference between a thief having low or high armor is whether it only takes a causal wave hello or a light breeze to kill them.

Second, attacking while stealthed gives you the “revealed” condition which means you can’t hide again for 2 seconds.

Third, a thief is not invincible or even protected at all when in stealth. Projectiles that were launched before it cloaked will hit the thief. And area effect attacks will hit it.

why do we thieves continually have to defend the class we play purely on the basis of unskilled players having a QQ. I have argued many points which get glossed over and soon forgotten, I feel we need demonstrations to set things in order.

Now seeing as this forum is filled with thieves taking on other classes easily, I want to see the QQers post their loss to a thief in a vid format (fraps etc, but not a screenshot). We deserve the right of innocent until Proven guilty, what I mean is that we want to examine and explain ourselves if we are indeed OP. but if it turns out that you are just so bad that you shouldn’t be in pvp, then atleast we can make that judgement together as a helpful forum.

post your loss to a thief on this forum and we will all decide happy loss.

heh. My one friend goes on about how he wrecks thieves all the time. Particularly with his Hammer Warrior. Know’s they’re going for a BS, rolls and hits them with Hammer Shock then proceeds to stunlock them to death. (says the only thing that could trouble him is a Guardian or a good Necro.)

You are wrong, some classes have knock down/stun abilities. You can use it on thief to stop him from going into stealth, since Hide in Shadows has cast time. Stealth time is really low – 3s, which make them easy to foresee where they will go.

Even if you use Shadow Refuge some classes can push them out of the circle and reveal them if they do it right.

The above 2 has happened to me few times, but ofcourse these people knew their class and how to face a thief, which is not the case for most people that whine here in the forums.

Dual.8953:

heh. My one friend goes on about how he wrecks thieves all the time. Particularly with his Hammer Warrior. Know’s they’re going for a BS, rolls and hits them with Hammer Shock then proceeds to stunlock them to death. (says the only thing that could trouble him is a Guardian or a good Necro.)

I am sure he is not lying. I am condition thief with very good hp pool and survivability and these guys give me such a trouble,let alone being 14k squishy BS thief.

Denial Of Service.5732:

To me, Stealth mechanic its pretty broken since there is no way to counter it

Inb4: “AoE damage” have luck in a 3D environment guessing in your 400 AoE range where the thieve is, while he is recharging initiative to try to burst you down yet again while your CDs are on.

Guess I’m crazy lucky because I have no problem doing that.

You can, you know, immobilize them. They’ll probably still be in that spot regardless of if you can see them.