Guild Wars 2

Ever since the introduction of torment it has been the thiefs nemesis.
This is because any condi cleanse (except for embrace of shadows-stealth clean, and shadowstep, which purely for cleansing is a waste) is condition specific:
Hide in shadows —>
used to removes all damage conditions (bleeding, birning poison) but was not updated for torment
Roll for initiative -->
removes all movement impeding conditions (chill, cripple, immob) but wasnt updated for torment (which is also a condi with a punishment for movement)

Now what do mesmers get, AI massive torment application. They dont even need to target, just put some clones out (super easy with clone on dodge, why was this not nerfed?) and as soon as you come out of stealth, LET THE TORMENT RAIN DOWN! The mesmer doenst even have to spot you and still has all cd’s while you start losing hp like a moron.

So please at least give us some way to counter the new torment meta that is about to come down because every feature patch you are just destroying this class more and more until the point that we will just be a mobility class to decap unguarded points with zero offensive capabilities/ or die as soon as something blinks at you.

Sincerely,\
A concerned thief

Im gonna be honest, I don’t think its that big of a deal. And if we had Torment removal on those heals it’d probably be op. I mean, 4 condition cleanses? Especially on a 15 second heal.

Also I thought that if you had all the DoT conditions with SA you could cure them all with HiS? I thought it cured the condis, and then one last condi. But I could be wrong, cus I don’t really pay attention to it.

alchemyst.2165:

Im gonna be honest, I don’t think its that big of a deal. And if we had Torment removal on those heals it’d probably be op. I mean, 4 condition cleanses? Especially on a 15 second heal.

It’s balanced by the fact it’ll only ever cure those 4 specific conditions, thus be completely useless when attacked with the others. It’s a case of overt specialization which means it has to be more powerful than normal to pay for it’s weaknesses.

And anyway, a Necro can cure every single condition at once every 25s. An elementalist can cure 8 conditions through a 15s channeling healing skill (although it is a looong channel). A warrior can cure 3 conditions every 8s while using his burst skill, provided he managed to fill his adrenalin.

alchemyst.2165:

Also I thought that if you had all the DoT conditions with SA you could cure them all with HiS? I thought it cured the condis, and then one last condi. But I could be wrong, cus I don’t really pay attention to it.

HiS cures a few specific conditions only. But there is a trait that cures you of one generic condition when you enter stealth, then 1 more every 3s you stay in stealth which must be what you remember.

alchemyst.2165:

Im gonna be honest, I don’t think its that big of a deal. And if we had Torment removal on those heals it’d probably be op. I mean, 4 condition cleanses? Especially on a 15 second heal.

You’re thinking of withdraw – that’s the 15s CD heal. HiS is 30s. Additionally, withdraw only removes movement impairing conditions, no damaging conditions. RFI is a stunbreaking utility with a 60s CD which also removes movement impairing conditions.

Also I thought that if you had all the DoT conditions with SA you could cure them all with HiS? I thought it cured the condis, and then one last condi. But I could be wrong, cus I don’t really pay attention to it.

Shadow’s embrace doesn’t count in PvP – you don’t have the luxury of sitting in stealth, and removing 1 condition every 3 seconds does nothing against condi bombs.

I’m all for more condition removal on thief – our current options are a joke. If you want Torment added to one of the heals though, you need to pick a “type” – either you consider it a damaging condition and stick it on HiS, or consider it a movement impairing condition and stick it on withdraw/rfi.

just buff up …. pain response

it is a unreliable condition remove- it will go off when u dont need it ….
with a 30 second cool down

the best part are the boons …… it is not total trash

but the condition remove is highly unreliable … getting triggered all the time when u dont need it

and it is all ways on cool down when u do need it lol

I’d go for Torment removal on Withdraw/RFI, considering those two deal in “movement.”
And as we all know, Torment punishes harder upon enemy movement. I also agree that Thief condi-clear does need an overall balance pass, considering that the prevalence of conditions (and types thereof, for that matter) is different than we saw at launch.

Of course, I’m also one what believes the unbalance of condi-clear/sustain options between SA and Acro should have been bloody well dealt with, months ago. /shrug

just went to my mesmer and try the condi shatter torment confusion bomb
i eat thieves without even try and its shatter build which make me to be active and not like the pu passive game play
with 10 stacks of confusion and 5-8 torment the thieves melt down fast

the only problem i had is d/p build which took me by surprise and had the advantage 50% wins

so anet think what will happen if i’ll have clones that use torment they will put 3 stacks and than shatter for 11 more while pu build will be more devastating

i think you should change it to confusion which more mesmer oriented

If this problem is in PvE, then roll a Human Thief and staple Prayer to Kormir into your utility bar if you really really really want to remove Torment.

If this is PvP or WvW, then stick to your teammates. Don’t complain if you go solo roaming and die from Torment.

The return of Lyssa runes?

lol i use lyssa

it is just so much easier to run shadow arts lol

they do not make it easy to play with out stealth ….. :S

just add torment to pain response …. lol it is not even a buff if the trait fails to help u 50% of the time when u need to remove conditions

pain response does not need to remove confusion !
just torment !

caveman.5840:

lol i use lyssa

it is just so much easier to run shadow arts lol

they do not make it easy to play with out stealth …..

just add torment to pain response …. lol it is not even a buff if the trait fails to help u 50% of the time when u need to remove conditions

pain response does not need to remove confusion !
just torment !

Very few people will actually go deeper than 3pts into Acrobat that warrants an update to Pain Response. The only way I will pick Pain Response is if ArenaNet put it in the Adept slot.

pain response —-— is a underwhelming trait

ya i know there is not much reason to go deep in to acrobatics :S

just like u said acrobatics is not a rewarding trait line after the first 3 points

i wish there was a reason to go deep in the trait line …… but the whole trait line is full of outdated traits and junk

i wish they would open up builds!

caveman.5840:

pain response —-— is a underwhelming trait

ya i know there is not much reason to go deep in to acrobatics :S

just like u said acrobatics is not a rewarding trait line after the first 3 points

i wish there was a reason to go deep in the trait line …… but the whole trait line is full of outdated traits and junk

i wish they would open up builds!

It’s actually not about it not having a rewarding trait line, rather it’s more about not having a lot of points to distribute. If we can get 3 more points, I’ll go 6pts into Acro to take advantage of the buff duration and vitality.

i am not asking to buff the whole trait line though lol

and it would not be that rewarding to add a torment remove to pain response

adding torment to pain response is just enough so u can play no stealth build !!!???
it really is nothing
on a trait that fails to remove conditions when u need it. about 50% of the time

Just thought I’d say…the tone of your title isn’t exactly conducive to getting a serious consideration from a dev.

You’re not Cartman, and ANet ain’t your mom, lol.

lol the title is demanding !!!! THE NOW!!!!

but i dont think anyone is trying to be demanding … just trying to have a healthy argument XD

shadowstep removes 3 conditions without discrimination. the precision signet clears one condi when it refills your endurance. the shadow arts condi cleanse trait also cleanses condis without discrimination.

and it was never a problem with confusion, which has no specific cleanse and has been around since launch.

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

that was before the condi meta … and increased use of conditions

and confusion does not punish u for avoiding attacks …torment does

on a low hp class this makes a difference

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

as a master trait.

we have an adept trait that removes one condition every 3 seconds, so… why is it different?

and before you say non-stealth builds, evasion builds have sword, which cleanses a condition on infiltrator return.

evilapprentice.6379:

alchemyst.2165:

Im gonna be honest, I don’t think its that big of a deal. And if we had Torment removal on those heals it’d probably be op. I mean, 4 condition cleanses? Especially on a 15 second heal.

You’re thinking of withdraw – that’s the 15s CD heal. HiS is 30s. Additionally, withdraw only removes movement impairing conditions, no damaging conditions. RFI is a stunbreaking utility with a 60s CD which also removes movement impairing conditions.

Sorry, I meant it would be especially op on withdraw since its 4 condi cleanses on a 15 second heal. I meant it wouldn’t be as bad on HiS, as it makes more sense. I should have been clearer.

But honestly I don’t think we should be thinking about torment, just buff the thief’s overall removal outside of stealth. Buffing pain response would be a huge step forward for the thief. I’m all for more condi removal outside of stealth. Give us more versatile options.

Example: Remove a condition when you use X type of skill.

Also shadow step should remove condis on the FIRST teleport. I don’t want to blow two shadowsteps just to cure conditions.

It seems like the upcoming patch is…

Tormenting the OP.

Yeahhh…

Torment is normally only an issue for me on sword offhand warriors and scepter mesmers. At present both are fairly easily avoided, but the warrior one in particular can kill you by itself if you don’t have a cleanse up which is stupid. The warrior’s version is being nerfed, and mesmers… I now have even less reason to fight scepter sword PU mesmers. Daggerstorm and other projectile reflect should be funny against them now though.

Dahkeus.8243:

Just thought I’d say…the tone of your title isn’t exactly conducive to getting a serious consideration from a dev.

You’re not Cartman, and ANet ain’t your mom, lol.

The NOW is meant as in the upcoming balance patch, since the proposed mesmer changes will have the potential for pushing some thief builds out of the meta (anything without shadow’s embrace)

caveman.5840:

pain response —-— is a underwhelming trait

ya i know there is not much reason to go deep in to acrobatics :S

just like u said acrobatics is not a rewarding trait line after the first 3 points

i wish there was a reason to go deep in the trait line …… but the whole trait line is full of outdated traits and junk

i wish they would open up builds!

They should just dump assassins equilibrium and add a condi cleanse on dodge in stead as a GM trait. This is a trait worthy of a GM position and would help non-SA thiefs get the condi removal they have been dreaming of. It would finally be worth spending 6 in Acrobatics, since it would synergize well with the rest of the line. The cooldown can be played with to balance, but i would for a first release not add a cooldown since dodge is already capped by energy.

Sword 2
Signet of Agility
Shadow Step
Shadow’s Embrace

Take your pick.

Sword 2 is a 4 initiative burn unique to a weapon set, and it only cleanses on return after a pretty long and readible channel. Shortbow being mandatory thus puts one of the very few cleanses the class has on a 1/3 chance of even being there on mainhand weapons.

SoA is bad and only removes one condition. Shame that those 2 stacks of vuln got prioritized.

SS is about the only viable means of condition removal the thief has that isn’t dependent on either investing too heavily into a given spec or build.

SE and the entire SA line fails against bombs and is simply poor in sPvP and only applicable to high-stealth uptime builds.

It best belongs on HiS (and pain response). It already removes all of the damage conditions (except confusion, but that damage can be prevented totally, so whatever), and has a substantially higher cooldown and plays nice with every weaponset. Withdraw is pretty unique to S/D since Sword 2 already has the DoT removal and withdraw lets the thief re-gain normal mobility on a short cooldown with a nice heal + reposition.

i think withdraw should get torment remove and hide in shadows be left how it is due to the fact it also gives you stealth (it also gets another condi cleanse with SA, the build most likely to take HIS over withdraw).

not that crazy of a suggestion considering non-SA thieves have decidedly few reliable cleanses

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

Can’t agree more.

I thought it was just me thinking it should remove the three conditions upon shadowsteping away instead of doing it when you jump back.

I really like that utility and I often find myself using it for condition cleansing. The problem is that I have to COME BACK to actually clear myself, which in turn makes me return to the source of the conditions.

The typical example is fighting a turret engi or condition mesmer. You get a burst of 5 conditions and you need to cleanse them, when you shadowstep away and then back again, you just return to the wolf’s mouth and get the same amount of condis you just got rid off. And then we have such a long cooldown on it…

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

That comment is misleading.

Warrior’s trait allows the Warrior to remove those conditions — not utility skills.

In comparison, you should look at Shadow’s Embrace — which is removing 2 conditions every stealth. You can also stealth back-to-back if you know how to do it to remove even more conditions.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

That comment is misleading.

Warrior’s trait allows the Warrior to remove those conditions — not utility skills.

In comparison, you should look at Shadow’s Embrace — which is removing 2 conditions every stealth. You can also stealth back-to-back if you know how to do it to remove even more conditions.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t SE only removing 2 conditions per stealth if you’re at least 15 points into SA?

It’s also worth mentioning that to remove those conditions, you have to go into stealth and then stop contributing to the fight, lest you lose stealth and gain revealed – warriors are dropping conditions as they continue to contribute to the fight. Sitting in stealth also loses capture points, which is a big deal since the goal of PvP is to hold capture points.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

That comment is misleading.

Warrior’s trait allows the Warrior to remove those conditions — not utility skills.

In comparison, you should look at Shadow’s Embrace — which is removing 2 conditions every stealth. You can also stealth back-to-back if you know how to do it to remove even more conditions.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t SE only removing 2 conditions per stealth if you’re at least 15 points into SA?

It’s also worth mentioning that to remove those conditions, you have to go into stealth and then stop contributing to the fight, lest you lose stealth and gain revealed – warriors are dropping conditions as they continue to contribute to the fight. Sitting in stealth also loses capture points, which is a big deal since the goal of PvP is to hold capture points.

I’m not saying that one is better than the other. I’m simply pointing out that comparing a trait to a utility skill is misleading.

Let’s say that the Thief goes into stealth for 4s and restealth after the 4s revealed, that equates to a removal of 4 conditions in the same time frame as the Warrior, but the Warrior only removes 3 conditions.

Whether the contribution to the fight is good or bad is debatable since stealthing can be a useless act or a necessary act that can save the Thief’s life.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

That comment is misleading.

Warrior’s trait allows the Warrior to remove those conditions — not utility skills.

In comparison, you should look at Shadow’s Embrace — which is removing 2 conditions every stealth. You can also stealth back-to-back if you know how to do it to remove even more conditions.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t SE only removing 2 conditions per stealth if you’re at least 15 points into SA?

It’s also worth mentioning that to remove those conditions, you have to go into stealth and then stop contributing to the fight, lest you lose stealth and gain revealed – warriors are dropping conditions as they continue to contribute to the fight. Sitting in stealth also loses capture points, which is a big deal since the goal of PvP is to hold capture points.

I’m not saying that one is better than the other. I’m simply pointing out that comparing a trait to a utility skill is misleading.

Let’s say that the Thief goes into stealth for 4s and restealth after the 4s revealed, that equates to a removal of 4 conditions in the same time frame as the Warrior, but the Warrior only removes 3 conditions.

Whether the contribution to the fight is good or bad is debatable since stealthing can be a useless act or a necessary act that can save the Thief’s life.

I haven’t spec’d SA in forever so this might be off but by my math in 8s you’ve removed 3 conditions – 2 in the original 4s stealth, 1 when you restealth after the 4s revealed, which took 9 seconds (assuming you time everything perfectly)

Also, it’s not debatable whether or not your contributing to the fight – if you want to cleanse the number of conditions your claiming SE cleanses, you have to sit in stealth for a minimum amount of time not contributing to the fight, whereas a warrior simply needs to connect with their burst skill to activate CI. Whether or not hiding in stealth is the best course of action at the time for the thief is subjective to each situation, but it’s a fact that the thief isn’t contributing to the fight while they sit in stealth because by definition they can’t contribute without losing stealth (besides for an extremely limited number of utilities and CG, the latter which is being changed in the patch), the state which is allowing them to shed conditions.

In my humble opinion, I think shadowstep should be more of a retreat thing. Mainly because for that sole purpose of assaulting, we a great deal of skills. In fact, the only sets missing an assault hability are P/P and D/D, none of which are serious for PvP in this stage of the game.

• Steal (Global)
• Infiltrator’s Arrow (SB)
• Infiltrator’s Strike (S/D)
• Shadow Shot(D/P)

So, the fact that can use Shadowstep to BACK AWAY from pressure, not to get into it, (unless you are D/D) should make the cleanse at the beggining a more logical approach. Its clear we don’t need another assaulting skill, we need a disagange skill ala Shadow Strike(P/D).
But maybe my 2k hours as thief are wrong.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

stof.9341:

Shadow Step has 60s cooldown and is not only one of our stunbreaks but one of our major escape spell. And if you use the condition removal part of it, it isn’t an escape spell anymore.

3 conditions every 60s is hardly worth mentioning.

Confusion isn’t much of a problem because we are kind of good at waiting up that it passes by disengaging a little I suppose.

Warriors can remove 3 conditions every 8s provided they can get the adrenaline and their was supposed to be the class that has difficulties dealing with conditions!

That comment is misleading.

Warrior’s trait allows the Warrior to remove those conditions — not utility skills.

In comparison, you should look at Shadow’s Embrace — which is removing 2 conditions every stealth. You can also stealth back-to-back if you know how to do it to remove even more conditions.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t SE only removing 2 conditions per stealth if you’re at least 15 points into SA?

It’s also worth mentioning that to remove those conditions, you have to go into stealth and then stop contributing to the fight, lest you lose stealth and gain revealed – warriors are dropping conditions as they continue to contribute to the fight. Sitting in stealth also loses capture points, which is a big deal since the goal of PvP is to hold capture points.

I’m not saying that one is better than the other. I’m simply pointing out that comparing a trait to a utility skill is misleading.

Let’s say that the Thief goes into stealth for 4s and restealth after the 4s revealed, that equates to a removal of 4 conditions in the same time frame as the Warrior, but the Warrior only removes 3 conditions.

Whether the contribution to the fight is good or bad is debatable since stealthing can be a useless act or a necessary act that can save the Thief’s life.

I haven’t spec’d SA in forever so this might be off but by my math in 8s you’ve removed 3 conditions – 2 in the original 4s stealth, 1 when you restealth after the 4s revealed, which took 9 seconds (assuming you time everything perfectly)

Yeah I realized my mistake after posting. Sorry about that.

Actually in an 8s span, a Thief can remove upto 3 conditions, not 4, that’s my mistake, so yes, you are correct.

Basically, the way it would play out is that the Thief will use sneak attack as soon as possible.

PvE (3 conds within 8s)
Stealth = remove condi -> sneak atk -> revealed 3s-> continue DPS (revealed training?)
Stealth = remove condi -> sneak atk -> revealed 3s-> continue DPS (revealed training?)
Stealth = remove condi

PvP (3 conds within 8s)
Stealth = remove condi -> sneak atk -> revealed 4s -> continue DPS (revealed training?)
Stealth = remove condi -> sneak atk -> revealed 4s-> continue DPS (revealed training?)
Stealth = remove condi

No sneak attack (4 conds within 6s)
Stealth = remove condi -> wait for 3s (2pts in SA) -> remove condi
Stealth = remove condi -> wait for 3s (2pts in SA) -> remove condi
-> continue DPS

Also, it’s not debatable whether or not your contributing to the fight – if you want to cleanse the number of conditions your claiming SE cleanses, you have to sit in stealth for a minimum amount of time not contributing to the fight, whereas a warrior simply needs to connect with their burst skill to activate CI.

It is debatable and no you don’t have to sit in stealth. See above.

Whether or not hiding in stealth is the best course of action at the time for the thief is subjective to each situation, but it’s a fact that the thief isn’t contributing to the fight while they sit in stealth because by definition they can’t contribute without losing stealth (besides for an extremely limited number of utilities and CG, the latter which is being changed in the patch), the state which is allowing them to shed conditions.

That’s my point, we can debate the situation when stealth is great and when it isn’t. Yes, I agree that no contribution is coming from a stealth Thief, same with a Warrior who cannot attack and build up adrenaline due to confusion, thus they cannot cleanse the condition, so they have to find other ways to remove the condition when they are out of adrenaline and at low health.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s my point, we can debate the situation when stealth is great and when it isn’t. Yes, I agree that no contribution is coming from a stealth Thief, same with a Warrior who cannot attack and build up adrenaline due to confusion, thus they cannot cleanse the condition, so they have to find other ways to remove the condition when they are out of adrenaline and at low health.

Technically, a Warrior with Cleansing Ire also builds adrenaline just by getting hit.

I think it’s also a good idea to note that torment is a sort of special case for thieves who rely a lot more on mobility for survival than other classes. Evade thieves are always moving, as are stealth thieves, so you can’t mitigate it’s damage by standing still and popping an invuln or uber or just letting your large HP pool soak it up.

I think adding it to pain response is a great start and is a small trait change that kills two birds with one stone without being a massive change of the sort anet seeems to never want to make to us.

Of course, Pain Response could cleanse Torment and it’d still be a 30s cooldown trait that procs when you got absolutely no condition on yourself and so will be unavailable for you when you most need it.

stof.9341:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s my point, we can debate the situation when stealth is great and when it isn’t. Yes, I agree that no contribution is coming from a stealth Thief, same with a Warrior who cannot attack and build up adrenaline due to confusion, thus they cannot cleanse the condition, so they have to find other ways to remove the condition when they are out of adrenaline and at low health.

Technically, a Warrior with Cleansing Ire also builds adrenaline just by getting hit.

That’s why I said “they have to find other ways to remove the condition” if that means taking hits to build adrenaline, sure why not, assuming they don’t die before that happens.

My point is, if Thief has a point where they are not contributing due to conditions, so does Warrior — they’re not god-like…yet — as well as other professions.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

stof.9341:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s my point, we can debate the situation when stealth is great and when it isn’t. Yes, I agree that no contribution is coming from a stealth Thief, same with a Warrior who cannot attack and build up adrenaline due to confusion, thus they cannot cleanse the condition, so they have to find other ways to remove the condition when they are out of adrenaline and at low health.

Technically, a Warrior with Cleansing Ire also builds adrenaline just by getting hit.

That’s why I said “they have to find other ways to remove the condition” if that means taking hits to build adrenaline, sure why not, assuming they don’t die before that happens.

My point is, if Thief has a point where they are not contributing due to conditions, so does Warrior — they’re not god-like…yet — as well as other professions.

A Warrior Can attack while afflicted with confusion, they’ll just take damage – If that ends up building enough Adrenaline to drop those 10 stacks of bleed/torment, or poison, or burn, then it was worth it, and the option was still open to them. A thief Cannot attack while in stealth, or else they’ll lose stealth.

I’m not claiming Warrior is OP, I’m claiming that a thief’s condition removal options are horribly UP. I’d be happy if they swapped most of SA’s “While in stealth” traits to “While revealed” – it’d fix alot of problems players have in both WvW and PvP.

Keep in mind the warrior will get a “remove condition” every 5 seconds trait in the upcoming patch and need only swap a weapon. Minimal cool down. No Ini cost. No utility used and they can stay in battle.

So to confusion. As far as i know swapping a weapon does not trigger confusion and is not considered “movement” so as to trigger more damage from torment stacks. This is a significant boon when it comes to Condition removal.

This is in many ways better condition removal then was cleansing ire . Overall condition removal IMHO on warrior is greater and easier to use after patches.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

stof.9341:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s my point, we can debate the situation when stealth is great and when it isn’t. Yes, I agree that no contribution is coming from a stealth Thief, same with a Warrior who cannot attack and build up adrenaline due to confusion, thus they cannot cleanse the condition, so they have to find other ways to remove the condition when they are out of adrenaline and at low health.

Technically, a Warrior with Cleansing Ire also builds adrenaline just by getting hit.

That’s why I said “they have to find other ways to remove the condition” if that means taking hits to build adrenaline, sure why not, assuming they don’t die before that happens.

My point is, if Thief has a point where they are not contributing due to conditions, so does Warrior — they’re not god-like…yet — as well as other professions.

A Warrior Can attack while afflicted with confusion, they’ll just take damage – If that ends up building enough Adrenaline to drop those 10 stacks of bleed/torment, or poison, or burn, then it was worth it, and the option was still open to them. A thief Cannot attack while in stealth, or else they’ll lose stealth.

Ok, they lose stealth, it doesn’t mean they didn’t lose a condition.

If you review my post above, a Thief don’t need to stay in stealth to remove conditions. They can continue attacking and removing one condition every 3s-4s (revealed time).

I’m not claiming Warrior is OP, I’m claiming that a thief’s condition removal options are horribly UP. I’d be happy if they swapped most of SA’s “While in stealth” traits to “While revealed” – it’d fix alot of problems players have in both WvW and PvP.

They they have to rename the entire trait line as Revealed Arts. lol.

On the contrary, I like the “While in stealth…” SA traits as is.

I’m just going to throw this out there (btw, I didn’t waste my time reading all these comments). Torment isn’t that bad for thieves to deal with. In fact, there aren’t many professions that are truly good against it (those who don’t need to be moving). Typically, this play style isn’t good anyway. Anywho… I’d also like to say that confusion is a much deadlier condition on thieves than torment is or ever will be…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

They they have to rename the entire trait line as Revealed Arts. lol.

Or they could just keep calling it shadow arts because gaining revealed relies on being in stealth first.

On the contrary, I like the “While in stealth…” SA traits as is.

You liking them doesn’t make them good for the game, well designed, or fun to play with and against.

One of the biggest WvW complaints about thieves is “they can just sit in stealth to reset the fight/regen/etc”.

One of the biggest reasons SA is garbage in PvP is because you can’t contest points/contribute while in stealth and all of SA’s best traits give you an incentive to sit in stealth even after you’ve gotten into position using stealth.

Changing most of the “while in stealth” triggers to “While revealed” or “On entering stealth” or “when gaining revealed” allows the traitline to continue functioning as designed while killing the major gripes about the class in both PvP and WvW.

It also prevents the “Apply revealed” skills (WvW trap, Rangers, Engineers soon) from completely shutting down an entire traitline.

There should be no incentive to sit in stealth beyond its primary goal – getting into position. By giving an incentive to just sit in stealth so you can regen health/regen init (i’m not claiming anyone takes patience)/drop conditions, Anet has made the entire SA line boring to play as a thief (Subjective), infuriating to play against In WvW(Objective), and worthless in PvP(Objective).

evilapprentice.6379:

You liking them doesn’t make them good for the game, well designed, or fun to play with and against.

One of the biggest WvW complaints about thieves is “they can just sit in stealth to reset the fight/regen/etc”.

That complaint comes from solo roamers who choose to go out alone and die from a Thief or from a group of inexperience players. An experienced group will not going to be an easy picking for a stealthy Thief.

Thus the solution is for them to gain more knowledge and experience and stay in a group. WvW is not designed for solo fights and especially not recommended for those lacking in experience to go out on their own — there’s a commander tag for a reason.

One of the biggest reasons SA is garbage in PvP is because you can’t contest points/contribute while in stealth and all of SA’s best traits give you an incentive to sit in stealth even after you’ve gotten into position using stealth.

This issue has nothing to do with stealth rather has something to do with the PvP rule about the points. Why can’t you contest a point while in stealth is beyond me. That rule is garbage, not SA.

Changing most of the “while in stealth” triggers to “While revealed” or “On entering stealth” or “when gaining revealed” allows the traitline to continue functioning as designed while killing the major gripes about the class in both PvP and WvW.

Again, I agree with the issue, I just don’t agree with your solution. You are blaming the traitline when the problem is from without. Those gripes are nonsensical.

Thieves takes a huge risk going off alone in WvW and those who choose to take that risk shouldn’t be complaining. The PvP anti-stealth point rule is B.S. It’s not like we can sit in stealth indefinitely to capture a point. Stealth has a short duration and causes revealed on successful hit — there shouldn’t be any anti-stealth rule. If ArenaNet will make this fair, they should also not allow Engis to cap a point if they place an turret on it, or a Necro to cap a point if they have minions out.

Why is Thief is the only one that has restriction?

Like I said, that rule is B.S. and if that causes gripe in PvP, then perhaps don’t play a stealth-based build as a Thief?

There’s no good enough reason to change SA.

It also prevents the “Apply revealed” skills (WvW trap, Rangers, Engineers soon) from completely shutting down an entire traitline.

Those skills are designed to shut down the stealth component of the trait line — ArenaNet is forcing us to embrace their favorite trait, that is, Venomous Aura, if we choose to invest into SA.

It’s their grand plan to eliminate stealth without actually eliminating stealth.

There should be no incentive to sit in stealth beyond its primary goal – getting into position. By giving an incentive to just sit in stealth so you can regen health/regen init (i’m not claiming anyone takes patience)/drop conditions, Anet has made the entire SA line boring to play as a thief (Subjective), infuriating to play against In WvW(Objective), and worthless in PvP(Objective).

You’re complaining about one aspect of the game yet you’re trying to extend that issue to other parts of the game where stealth is not THE problem.

Besides, you’re just repeating yourself. I’ve already addressed this above, so I won’t repeat myself here.

Or you can stop crying and realize your class finally needs skillcap to play. You think mesmers enjoyed the constant blinds and dodges you throw at them? You think they enjoy the fact stealing on them gives you ALL BOONS? You think they like having no counter to your condi builds? Just be quiet and take your nerfs like a man, mesmers have dealt with unbalanced thieves for over a year.

Serum.4067:

Or you can stop crying and realize your class finally needs skillcap to play. You think mesmers enjoyed the constant blinds and dodges you throw at them? You think they enjoy the fact stealing on them gives you ALL BOONS? You think they like having no counter to your condi builds? Just be quiet and take your nerfs like a man, mesmers have dealt with unbalanced thieves for over a year.

Right. First, I have to (politely) ask you to not speak as if you think all Mesmers have some sort of morning wood against Thieves. Hell, if I’m not on my Mesmer, I’m generally running Thief. Maybe this gives me a different perspective, but -as I’ve said before- I actively enjoy scrapping Thieves. Why, you ask? They’re one of the few professions in game capable of putting Ye Ol’ Mindscrew on a Mes.

Serum.4067:

Or you can stop crying and realize your class finally needs skillcap to play. You think mesmers enjoyed the constant blinds and dodges you throw at them? You think they enjoy the fact stealing on them gives you ALL BOONS? You think they like having no counter to your condi builds? Just be quiet and take your nerfs like a man, mesmers have dealt with unbalanced thieves for over a year.

Blindspam is a problem with x/P, which is getting nerfed.

Anyone can dodge. Actually, mesmers have some of the best access to vigor in the game.

Except mesmers still have many more viable condition removal options than thieves do and have increased base health which by default makes them more resistant to condition damage, and thief conditions only come in the form of two DoT’s and poison whereas mesmers, especially post-patch will have a wide variety of DoT applications and AA torment (which is thus subsequently un-cleansable).

And soon to be, the mesmer will gain all boons from a thief using their class mechanic against them.

Frankly, I don’t get all the mesmer QQ. I find my s/s build to be one of the most resilient builds I have against thieves.

DeceiverX.8361:

Serum.4067:

Or you can stop crying and realize your class finally needs skillcap to play. You think mesmers enjoyed the constant blinds and dodges you throw at them? You think they enjoy the fact stealing on them gives you ALL BOONS? You think they like having no counter to your condi builds? Just be quiet and take your nerfs like a man, mesmers have dealt with unbalanced thieves for over a year.

Blindspam is a problem with x/P, which is getting nerfed.

Anyone can dodge. Actually, mesmers have some of the best access to vigor in the game.

Except mesmers still have many more viable condition removal options than thieves do and have increased base health which by default makes them more resistant to condition damage, and thief conditions only come in the form of two DoT’s and poison whereas mesmers, especially post-patch will have a wide variety of DoT applications and AA torment (which is thus subsequently un-cleansable).

And soon to be, the mesmer will gain all boons from a thief using their class mechanic against them.

Frankly, I don’t get all the mesmer QQ. I find my s/s build to be one of the most resilient builds I have against thieves.

You misunderstood, he wanted a SKILLCAP — meaning, all pro-Thief will play like noob-Thief to even out the play field by nerfing all skills that gives pros the ability to outplay other professions.

And we’re being accused of QQing…lol