Thief pidgeon-holed into gimmicky builds?
100% agree OP
I’m crossing my fingers for P/P buffs, that was the main reason I made a Thief to begin with but it’s just so niche and setup so terribly that I can’t deal with playing, despite the fact it’s my favorite kit from a flavor standpoint.
The biggest issue I’ve had with this game so far is that the devs are so quick to (rightfully) nerf OP abilities/kits but so slow to buff UP abilities/kits.
couldn’t have said it any better myself… lately i’ve been playing my thief in spvp (which is like my favorite thing to do all day every day) and just see all of these glass cannon backstab build thieves running around 1 shotting everything. it’s not that it’s a problem, i find it easy to counter these thieves with my build, but the fact that all of them run this same build takes the fun out of being a thief in my opinion. it’s the same, boring, 1 shot rotation every 45 seconds or so… i mean i have fun playing D/P blind build, but it seems to never be enough since it hardly does any damage, just good for mobility and survivability… i wish they would do something to actually make the build i play more enjoyable and have more variety…
Because I don’t want to be the guy who said THIS SUCKS FIX IT and not give anything concrete to work with I’ll go through the traits and address them.
Serpent’s Touch-good trait, leave as is.
Lotus Poison -Works with Serpent’s Touch and with Lotus Strike, could be more useful but its viable enough.
Exposed Weakness-Reasonably viable, good job Anet.
Back Fighting-The only reason to ever trait this is if you’re building for constant failure. As a trait its self-defeating and needs to be replaced.
Corrosive Traps-If traps are reworked to be more viable this would be really good but as it sits traps are nigh-useless except for niche builds. This either needs to be scrapped or traps need to be buffed.
Mug-Good trait, it may even be a little overpowered.
Venomous Strength-Venoms are fairly weak, even in a venom-sharing build. The concept is good but it’s buffing something most people don’t use enough to validate this traits existence. Either replace this trait or buff venoms.
Potent Poison-This only benefits Dagger builds with the occasional steal. I recommend this extending Venom duration as well or replacing the trait.
Sundering Strikes-40% on a 30-60% just doesn’t seem very good to me. This should be 40% on attacks period.
Improvisation-Far too random to be of any real use. This needs to be revamped to refresh a random utility slot instead that way the player has at least minimal control over how useful this ability can be.
Quick Venoms-The concept of this could help venom builds however venoms themselves aren’t amazing making this trait somewhat useless bar a niche build. If you buff venoms this could be useful.
Dagger Training-basic but useful, again, good job.
Combined Training-5% of very, very specific abilities seems a little low but the concept is sound.
Panic Strike-Good trait, good job.
Residual Venom-This has potential to be good however venoms need to be worth investing in for this ability to be worth investing in over Panic Strike.
Keen Observer-Good idea, however the 5% increase is fairly low considering the thief, who is squishy by nature has to have over 90% health. Either buff the 5% or nerf the 90%. Something has to give.
Opportunist-20% on a 30-60%…not good. Numbers need some serious reworking.
First Strikes-Good job, good trait.
Furious Retaliation-These are the kind of traits which are good, because they have a reasonably long cooldown and activate when something is achieved that is realistic. Very good job.
Signets of Power-A little buggy (I’ve activated signets rapidly and only gained 5 stacks of might) but the concept itself is good.
Side Strike -Another good trait
Concealed Defeat-Building for failure isn’t good at all, this needs to be removed.
Pistol Mastery-Given the Pistols lack luster damage this may be better at a higher number but if you buff pistol skill damage this is a good trait.
Practiced Tolerance-Very good idea, however 5% is a little low and often translates into less then a single hit. Probably needs a buff.
Ankle Shots-Another percent on a percent trait, these aren’t very good. Needs to be changed to a % on attack.
ignet Use-Solid trait, good job.
Combo Critical Chance-Another job well done.
Critical Haste-Another % on a % and to boot the duration of the boon is 2 seconds…This needs some major reworking.
Executioner-Good trait
Hidden Killer-Good trait
Last Refuge-If Blinding Powder was a better ability this would be a good trait.
Meld with Shadows-Good trait
Hidden Assassin-Good trait
Master of Deception-Good trait
Slowed Pulse-This one is kind of silly, there’s no reason to ever take this trait.
Shadow Protector-Only synergizes with one ability, if per say, Black powder provided stealth to you and allies in its AoE this would be viable.
Shadow’s Embrace-This is a really good idea because Thieves lack condition removal. The problem is that stealth only last 2-4 seconds. Needs some tweaking but the concept is excellent.
Infusion of Shadow-Another solid trait.
Cloaked in Shadow-Yet again, another good job.
Power Shots-I’m a bit biased on this one, I feel we’re forced into our second weapon being the SB and we have no choice about the harpoon so I have a problem with this trait, not because its bad but because its forced.
Hidden Thief-Good trait
Leeching Venoms-Venoms need to be justifiable but as a trait this is good.
Patience-As a concept this is good but at this point I feel like you’re telling the thief “you must use stealth or you’re terrible”…then you give us weapon sets like P/P with no stealth…
Shadow’s Rejuvenation-this I feel may actually be too strong. I’ve tried this in WvW and it made me incredibly hard to kill which mitigates the weakness of the thief that justifies its high burst damage.
Venomous Aura-This makes venoms good but the problem is you need to invest so much into making this viable it hurts. Buff venoms so they’re consistently viable on their own then this becomes worthy of investing 30 points to get.
Expeditious Dodger-I personally use this but feel that 2 seconds is a little low.
Feline Grace-Great trait
Fluid Strikes-Considering how hard it is to keep your endurance not full this is surprisingly useless (if you’re dodging you’re not attacking).
Descent of Shadows-This ability is not good. Falling damage…what are we supposed to do? drop off a cliff like Batman into our enemies? Please remove this and never speak of it again :p
Power of Inertia-duration of the might is a little low but good idea.
Vigorous Recovery-Duration of Vigor is so low its not worth it what so ever.
Assassin’s Retreat-Conflicts with Expeditious Dodger, which is a superior skill. This should be replaced.
Master Trapper-Traps need to be made viable, once they are this will be good.
Fleet Shadow-Good trait.
Fleet of Foot-Good trait
Pain Response-Good trait
Quick Recovery-Good trait
Assassin’s Reward-The heal on this is a little low, however its a solid concept.
Hard to Catch-Good concept but the unpredictability of where you shadow step can lead you into enemies. That needs to be fixed otherwise good trait.
Quick Pockets-Good trait, I don’t see this as being worthy of investing 30 points to get though.
Kleptomaniac-good trait
Preparedness-amazing trait
Lead Attacks-another amazing trait
Merciful Ambush-Would be better if ranged weapons didn’t exist. Needs a revamp to be more useful.
Instinctual Response-Good trait
Uncatchable-Great concept but the AoE is so low, the duration of the bleed and cripple is so tiny and the duration of the caltrops is so miniscule that this is single handedly the biggest tease in the thief trait tree. It desperately needs a buff.
Flanking Strikes-Good trait
Thrill of the Crime-Good trait
Long Reach-doesn’t synergize with the thief at all since steal is used to get in melee range.
Bountiful Theft-Good trait
Trickster-good trait (the tricks you have are amazing or even overpowered)
Initial Strike-Good trait (7% may be a little low)
Ricochet-This is not good at all. I don’t mean to be rude but the last thing a pistol thief needs is more agro and the pistol damage is so low it’s not even viable.
Hastened Replenishment-Good trait
Sleight of Hand-Good trait
The P/D bunker/condition build works just fine and holds its own against D/D Backstab crit builds. Holds well against 100 blades as well. Nothing like having a Warrior rage quit because he dropped bulls charge and 100 blades on you only to drop you to near half health and you wittle him down at range and end up winning the engagement.
The P/D bunker/condition build works just fine and holds its own against D/D Backstab crit builds. Holds well against 100 blades as well. Nothing like having a Warrior rage quit because he dropped bulls charge and 100 blades on you only to drop you to near half health and you wittle him down at range and end up winning the engagement.
And subsequently lose when any number of his buddies show up. P/D isn’t bad, not at all but it’s not competitive either unless its a 1v1 scenario where you can afford to infini-kite.
This is unquestionably the fundamental design problem of the thief. The combination of stealth and initiative means easily exploitable burst damage which means PvP brokenness. The entire class revolves around that, and it gets nerfed because it’s broken, and while I do think Anet is competent at analyzing and fixing issues, so far inadequate attention has been given to larger design issues of the class, which are especially pronounced in PvE:
1. Below average DPS
2. A total lack of attrition, forcing thieves to try to keep range during tough fights.
3. Despite being squishy, no very reliable ways to drop aggro, especially when downed.
4. A laughably and frustratingly terrible set of downed skills. #1 doesn’t do enough damage and the cripple is useless, #2 and #3 are designed to get you away from danger but almost never work even when combined.
5. Traps are too situational and not very usable, although Caltrops are a god-send.
6. Basilisk Venom is mostly garbage, and it’s the only elite available underwater.
7. P/P is clearly weaker than it should be
8. OH light skills a useless tack-on when they could be really cool. More of a problem due to a lack of weapon options in general.
9. 900 max range, which is measly for how generally weak thieves are.
10. No true support build options, which again pigeon-holes thief players into damage-focused builds.
I’m sure I could think of more.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
So D/D, P/D.
Arguably S/P (although its been nerfed so bad its not really competitive anymore) and P/P which is basically S/P’s little brother who doesn’t quite measure up…even after the PW nerf.
This is unquestionably the fundamental design problem of the thief. The combination of stealth and initiative means easily exploitable burst damage which means PvP brokenness. The entire class revolves around that, and it gets nerfed because it’s broken, and while I do think Anet is competent at analyzing and fixing issues, so far inadequate attention has been given to larger design issues of the class, which are especially pronounced in PvE:
1. Below average DPS
2. A total lack of attrition, forcing thieves to try to keep range during tough fights.
3. Despite being squishy, no very reliable ways to drop aggro, especially when downed.
4. A laughably and frustratingly terrible set of downed skills. #1 doesn’t do enough damage and the cripple is useless, #2 and #3 are designed to get you away from danger but almost never work even when combined.
5. Traps are too situational and not very usable, although Caltrops are a god-send.
6. Basilisk Venom is mostly garbage, and it’s the only elite available underwater.
7. P/P is clearly weaker than it should be
8. OH light skills a useless tack-on when they could be really cool. More of a problem due to a lack of weapon options in general.
9. 900 max range, which is measly for how generally weak thieves are.
10. No true support build options, which again pigeon-holes thief players into damage-focused builds.I’m sure I could think of more.
1. What? No. Just no.
2. What does that mean? Most Condition builds are not viable in PvE because of the stack cap, it’s not a Thief problem. And besides, all fights in PvE are based on attrition, since you’re chiseling down a single mob for 5 minutes trying to not die in the meantime. The bacon unicorn is one of the strongest melee builds in PvP right now, so miss there as well.
3. Well that’s the case for every class in the game, really.
4. Downed 1 deals a lot of damage, up to 1k crits on glass cannons and it bounces, so there’s potential for more. I’ve been downing other glass cannons from 80% to 0 with this skill alone. The other downed skills are great in PvE, bad in PvP. I wouldn’t mind of Stealth dropped aggro faster than it does right now, though. Oh and perma cripple on multiple targets is great in PvP.
5. Agreed.
6. Yep.
7. I don’t know about that. It actually deals pretty high damage as far as ranged builds go. But I guess it could use some escape/cripple capabilities.
8. Nobody uses them, because they’re filler for level 1 Thieves, so… whatever. Making the bare hand an actual weapon does sound quite cool, actually… One dagger for a CC/DPS hybrid with a grappler theme? Two-handing a pistol for long range precision shots? Yes, please.
9. Thieves aren’t weak by any stretch. Their exceptional power in melee is limited by their low range… but maybe there at least needs to be a trait, which increases the range of pistols. Or two-handed grip on a single pistol.
10. Kind of true. Although there are ways to support. Venom share and SR rez are both extremely strong ways of support, and then there’s Smoke Screen and Steal-related support skills, but I agree as far a full-time support builds go.
I won’t argue on all of your points, but I to touch on a few. Keep in mind I’m speaking totally in the context of PvE here, as was my original post.
#2. I mean simply being in melee range. During events and large scale fights or fights against tough opponents, thieves are too squishy in most situations to be as effective when trying to fight in melee as they can be by standing at a safer distance and pew pewing.
#4. No, I’m telling you, the downed skills may be good if you’re in PvP or in group PvE, but in solo PvE they are nothing short of terrible. I keep #1 traited so that I have a small chance of being able to rally from spamming it when I go down. The trait helps it a lot but there’s no arguing that #2 and #3 suffer from some basic design issues. The ideal fix would be making #1 apply bleed instead of cripple and making #3 last longer than 2 seconds, at least in PvE.
100% agree OP
I’m crossing my fingers for P/P buffs, that was the main reason I made a Thief to begin with but it’s just so niche and setup so terribly that I can’t deal with playing, despite the fact it’s my favorite kit from a flavor standpoint.
The biggest issue I’ve had with this game so far is that the devs are so quick to (rightfully) nerf OP abilities/kits but so slow to buff UP abilities/kits.
You can play P/P and do well is sPvP. It’s just annoying when you realize you could be doing better as other builds. P/P does have major issues that need to be fixed though.
Am I the only one that can’t get Hard to Catch to work? Whether it be in spvp or in pve the kitten thing never procs.
Warrior – Ríse[MoM]. Guardian – Ekria. Necro – Reimia. Engi – Feni Navi
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Tarnished Coast.