Guild Wars 2

I find that most people hate thieves for one and only one reason. A thgeves ability to chain stealths and teleports around the map with no end in sight. This is incredibly frustrating for everyone. Even other thieves.

Given the above I would suggest that the stealth ability force players to either be a specific distance away from an enemy or simply make stealth exit always apply a 3 second cooldown.

I would get rid of all stealth revealing abilities because now its on every stealth exit.

I would get rid of the teleporting abilities all together.

I would fix the trait lines such that power/condi actually had some power related non-selectable traits…take a look they are: serpents touch, lotus posion and expose weakness. 2 of the 3 are condi. They need to do 2 things each one power side one condi side.

The critical strikes line actually deals with critical buff but no ferocity stuff. Again should be both things.

The shadow arts line goes away completely.

Acrobatics goes away too.

Also delete trickary.

Replace the three above lines with:

==
Melee specialization

Disarms, parry, stuns, expose weakness
==
Range specialization

Dust cloud, dodging increase shortbow range, snares
==
Traps

To save a bunch of coding I would re-use some of the casting classes abilities AOE abilities.

Then to replace the teleports etc simply by giving a sprint ability.

Just some ideas of what could be done…

And of course they are terribad etc….if that is all you are going to reply with save it.

Trying not to say it…trying so hard….I will: You are not a thief just an assasin and I am personally disappointed you want a redisign rather than the improvements we need for the current reality.

I have to disagree here, all of the stealth and acrobatics is what keeps a thief alive, either of them is pretty much necessary for the survival of a thief. The problem isn’t stealth or acro, it’s the fact that people just want the easiest way to get their loot bag without thinking. And to be honest, there are many things thief needs improvement on, we REALLY don’t need more nerfs. While I do agree there should be some reworking to thief, I don’t think this is the way to go. Imo they just need to make the things that suck (certain utilities, traits, weapon skills) and turn them into something people can actually use.

Really, I would be satisfied if they attempted to do a redesign, or showed signs of awareness at this point.

Skeletor.9360:

I find that most people hate thieves for one and only one reason. A thgeves ability to chain stealths and teleports around the map with no end in sight. This is incredibly frustrating for everyone. Even other thieves.

Given the above I would suggest that the stealth ability force players to either be a specific distance away from an enemy or simply make stealth exit always apply a 3 second cooldown.

I would get rid of all stealth revealing abilities because now its on every stealth exit.

I would get rid of the teleporting abilities all together.

I would fix the trait lines such that power/condi actually had some power related non-selectable traits…take a look they are: serpents touch, lotus posion and expose weakness. 2 of the 3 are condi. They need to do 2 things each one power side one condi side.

The critical strikes line actually deals with critical buff but no ferocity stuff. Again should be both things.

The shadow arts line goes away completely.

Acrobatics goes away too.

Also delete trickary.

Replace the three above lines with:

==
Melee specialization

Disarms, parry, stuns, expose weakness
==
Range specialization

Dust cloud, dodging increase shortbow range, snares
==
Traps

To save a bunch of coding I would re-use some of the casting classes abilities AOE abilities.

Then to replace the teleports etc simply by giving a sprint ability.

Just some ideas of what could be done…

And of course they are terribad etc….if that is all you are going to reply with save it.

I’m sorry, but I cannot disagree with you more.

While I will admit that the stealth and mobility that thieves have can be frustrating to encounter at times, you also have to understand that these things are inherently tied to the thief kit. It’s what sets them apart and allows them to still be viable, despite the current environment they are forced to play in. The teleporting and stealth that you were mentioning? EVERY thief needs these things to stay alive. They are our primary (and I’d even go as far as to say only) source of damage mitigation. You are basically suggesting that Anet nerf the only things that allow us to still be good at all into near nonexistence. You might as well just get rid of the class in that case, since you’d essentially be turning thieves into a squishier, less powerful warrior class with a gimmicky cloak ability. Btw, the teleporting thing? That’s not even strictly a thief ability. Sure we have the most access to those skills, but mesmers and elementalists can teleport too.

What’s more, I am completely against ANY form of nerf to the thief class at this point. We don’t need a nerf. If anything, we could use a slight buff, given the current state of the game. Since day one, people have been b****ing about thieves. “Thieves are OP because of…” or " OMG! THIEVES OP! ARENANET! FIX IT!" And Anet has responded to these complaints with repeated nerfs to the class. At first, some were reasonable (the “Revealed” status for example). But it’s now gotten to the point where we are barely able to hold our own against the other classes, most of which are somehow not deserving of direct nerfs like we were. The thief is not and has never been an easy class to play. We have neither the raw power nor the defensive capabilities of your standard warrior, even when they’re running zerkers. We don’t have the sustained condition damage that necromancers and engineers have, and the addition of more condition removal abilities in an attempt to balance those two classes have only succeeded in making condi-thieves even more mediocre in comparison. Our saving grace is our great burst damage potential. The fact that we can get in, take a target down and get out faster than anyone else. The fact that while we may be significantly squishier than most classes, we have STEALTH and MOBILITY to help us avoid damage altogether.

The last thing we need is yet another nerf…

Starsurfer.7209:

Skeletor.9360:

I find that most people hate thieves for one and only one reason. A thgeves ability to chain stealths and teleports around the map with no end in sight. This is incredibly frustrating for everyone. Even other thieves.

Given the above I would suggest that the stealth ability force players to either be a specific distance away from an enemy or simply make stealth exit always apply a 3 second cooldown.

I would get rid of all stealth revealing abilities because now its on every stealth exit.

I would get rid of the teleporting abilities all together.

I would fix the trait lines such that power/condi actually had some power related non-selectable traits…take a look they are: serpents touch, lotus posion and expose weakness. 2 of the 3 are condi. They need to do 2 things each one power side one condi side.

The critical strikes line actually deals with critical buff but no ferocity stuff. Again should be both things.

The shadow arts line goes away completely.

Acrobatics goes away too.

Also delete trickary.

Replace the three above lines with:

==
Melee specialization

Disarms, parry, stuns, expose weakness
==
Range specialization

Dust cloud, dodging increase shortbow range, snares
==
Traps

To save a bunch of coding I would re-use some of the casting classes abilities AOE abilities.

Then to replace the teleports etc simply by giving a sprint ability.

Just some ideas of what could be done…

And of course they are terribad etc….if that is all you are going to reply with save it.

I’m sorry, but I cannot disagree with you more.

While I will admit that the stealth and mobility that thieves have can be frustrating to encounter at times, you also have to understand that these things are inherently tied to the thief kit. It’s what sets them apart and allows them to still be viable, despite the current environment they are forced to play in. The teleporting and stealth that you were mentioning? EVERY thief needs these things to stay alive. They are our primary (and I’d even go as far as to say only) source of damage mitigation. You are basically suggesting that Anet nerf the only things that allow us to still be good at all into near nonexistence. You might as well just get rid of the class in that case, since you’d essentially be turning thieves into a squishier, less powerful warrior class with a gimmicky cloak ability. Btw, the teleporting thing? That’s not even strictly a thief ability. Sure we have the most access to those skills, but mesmers and elementalists can teleport too.

What’s more, I am completely against ANY form of nerf to the thief class at this point. We don’t need a nerf. If anything, we could use a slight buff, given the current state of the game. Since day one, people have been b****ing about thieves. “Thieves are OP because of…” or " OMG! THIEVES OP! ARENANET! FIX IT!" And Anet has responded to these complaints with repeated nerfs to the class. At first, some were reasonable (the “Revealed” status for example). But it’s now gotten to the point where we are barely able to hold our own against the other classes, most of which are somehow not deserving of direct nerfs like we were. The thief is not and has never been an easy class to play. We have neither the raw power nor the defensive capabilities of your standard warrior, even when they’re running zerkers. We don’t have the sustained condition damage that necromancers and engineers have, and the addition of more condition removal abilities in an attempt to balance those two classes have only succeeded in making condi-thieves even more mediocre in comparison. Our saving grace is our great burst damage potential. The fact that we can get in, take a target down and get out faster than anyone else. The fact that while we may be significantly squishier than most classes, we have STEALTH and MOBILITY to help us avoid damage altogether.

The last thing we need is yet another nerf…

He is not suggesting a nerf, he wants to redesign the thief.

And thieves stealth, if you haven’t traited in shadow arts is just a nice trick, at best a vantage giver. It’s definitely not about damage mitigation and a very unreliable form of damage avoidance.

No……..thief is fine. You don’t want a redesign you want a nerf to make fighting the class more convenient for you.

At this point thief is broken.
The nerf-bat killed it, and currently thief can hope for surprise-bursting other zerkers at best.
Fighting a thief goes like this:
>thief spoted in the distance
>get analyze ready
>reveal
>cc
>fire s/d voleys
>stomp
>every
>single
>encounter

Either a-net rolls back and takes the reveal from me, (yes, one-button kills bore me out on the giving end, too), or they redesign the thief completely and give it something that makes them unique as a class on other ways. Stealth is a nice gimmick that 4 other classes can use as well – more or less effectively – and the reveal is actually a nice counter when it comes to mesmers f.e. Gives them a headache, but will most certainly not grant a stomp on its own since mesmers’ class-mechanics rely on other things.
Or if you keep it as the thief’s center mechanic, give them a trait or signet (could be a elite f.e.) that regenerates their health for mayor proportions while being stealthed, or drastically increases their initiative-gain.
Thieves already utilize stealth in some traits, and even reveal triggers a nice-dps buff if traited, but in itself that is not enough to give the thief’s class mechanics the edge that all other classes experience from theirs.

As it is, I guess thieves still have a place in PvE when it comes to stealth-skipping…
Nothing a engi couldn’t do anyways, but w/e.

So basically delete the thief’s 2 main ways of surviving(stealth based healing/condi removal+teleport/evades/mobility) and throw a huge wrench in the steal ability while at the same time making it impossible for a thief to disengage. You essentially want to turn the thief into a lower hp warrior with less mobility and next to no damage mitigation. No player will ever be able to balance a class if they are always trying to balance from their own class’ perspective.

“I find that most people hate thieves for one and only one reason. A thgeves ability to chain stealths and teleports around the map with no end in sight. This is incredibly frustrating for everyone. Even other thieves.”

You act as if disengaging is something only thieves do. Any class with access to stealth or mobility can escape a fight. And just going from the PoV of that quote, I’m guessing you don’t play a thief. Play a thief for yourself. You will quickly realize that if you’re trying to fight anything other than another zerker, you will not down them fast enough and you will need to disengage. That mobility is what makes thieves useful. If you realize a fight is going nowhere desirable( like fighting a bunker build on point), you can escape with stealth and teleports to quickly traverse to another point that isn’t defended and take that instead.

Just going off your post, your entire reasoning for nerfing something isn’t that it’s actually OP and needing a nerf, but that it is annoying in your opinion. We don’t change things because they’re annoying. That’s subjective and not a good reason.

Necrotize.2974:

So basically delete the thief’s 2 main ways of surviving(stealth based healing/condi removal+teleport/evades/mobility) and throw a huge wrench in the steal ability while at the same time making it impossible for a thief to disengage. You essentially want to turn the thief into a lower hp warrior with less mobility and next to no damage mitigation. No player will ever be able to balance a class if they are always trying to balance from their own class’ perspective.

“I find that most people hate thieves for one and only one reason. A thgeves ability to chain stealths and teleports around the map with no end in sight. This is incredibly frustrating for everyone. Even other thieves.”

You act as if disengaging is something only thieves do. Any class with access to stealth or mobility can escape a fight. And just going from the PoV of that quote, I’m guessing you don’t play a thief. Play a thief for yourself. You will quickly realize that if you’re trying to fight anything other than another zerker, you will not down them fast enough and you will need to disengage. That mobility is what makes thieves useful. If you realize a fight is going nowhere desirable( like fighting a bunker build on point), you can escape with stealth and teleports to quickly traverse to another point that isn’t defended and take that instead.

Just going off your post, your entire reasoning for nerfing something isn’t that it’s actually OP and needing a nerf, but that it is annoying in your opinion. We don’t change things because they’re annoying. That’s subjective and not a good reason.

couldn’t say better

jcavlopes.1736:

He is not suggesting a nerf, he wants to redesign the thief.

And thieves stealth, if you haven’t traited in shadow arts is just a nice trick, at best a vantage giver. It’s definitely not about damage mitigation and a very unreliable form of damage avoidance.

Making stealth significantly more difficult to use? Getting rid of teleporting skills altogether? Yeah, those are nerfs and rather large ones at that. What’s more, his suggested redesigns would only make the thief capable of doing a mediocre job of mimicking other classes. Our current kit doesn’t come anywhere close to supporting the changes he suggests. At best, they’d make us a poor man’s warrior or ranger. At worst, it would make the class almost useless in comparison to other classes. The only way it could do anything positive for the class would be if Anet scrapped everything and started from scratch… And even then, we wouldn’t be the thief class most of us fell in love with now, would we?

As for the stealth comment, note that I didn’t say it was a perfect mechanic. There are many reasons why stealth is not adequate enough to act as one of our sole sources of defense (I’m looking at you Rapid Fire). But the answer isn’t to nerf it further, take away our only other defense mechanism (teleporting), or try to turn us into something we’re not. That helps no one.

Starsurfer.7209:

jcavlopes.1736:

He is not suggesting a nerf, he wants to redesign the thief.

And thieves stealth, if you haven’t traited in shadow arts is just a nice trick, at best a vantage giver. It’s definitely not about damage mitigation and a very unreliable form of damage avoidance.

Making stealth significantly more difficult to use? Getting rid of teleporting skills altogether? Yeah, those are nerfs and rather large ones at that. What’s more, his suggested redesigns would only make the thief capable of doing a mediocre job of mimicking other classes. Our current kit doesn’t come anywhere close to supporting the changes he suggests. At best, they’d make us a poor man’s warrior or ranger. At worst, it would make the class almost useless in comparison to other classes. The only way it could do anything positive for the class would be if Anet scrapped everything and started from scratch… And even then, we wouldn’t be the thief class most of us fell in love with now, would we?

As for the stealth comment, note that I didn’t say it was a perfect mechanic. There are many reasons why stealth is not adequate enough to act as one of our sole sources of defense (I’m looking at you Rapid Fire). But the answer isn’t to nerf it further, take away our only other defense mechanism (teleporting), or try to turn us into something we’re not. That helps no one.

Well, I’m not saying his design suggestions are good, or don’t end up somehow nerfing thiefs. That’s a collateral of him not being very thoughtful. He did state he wants to redesign it though. And i think at least there he is right on the point.

Thief class needs serious redesign, and if i where in the pvp balance team i would overhaul the entire thief mechanics. Not only that, but many other problems i see with the current pvp “balance” – this includes reworking other classes too.

jcavlopes.1736:

Starsurfer.7209:

jcavlopes.1736:

He is not suggesting a nerf, he wants to redesign the thief.

And thieves stealth, if you haven’t traited in shadow arts is just a nice trick, at best a vantage giver. It’s definitely not about damage mitigation and a very unreliable form of damage avoidance.

Making stealth significantly more difficult to use? Getting rid of teleporting skills altogether? Yeah, those are nerfs and rather large ones at that. What’s more, his suggested redesigns would only make the thief capable of doing a mediocre job of mimicking other classes. Our current kit doesn’t come anywhere close to supporting the changes he suggests. At best, they’d make us a poor man’s warrior or ranger. At worst, it would make the class almost useless in comparison to other classes. The only way it could do anything positive for the class would be if Anet scrapped everything and started from scratch… And even then, we wouldn’t be the thief class most of us fell in love with now, would we?

As for the stealth comment, note that I didn’t say it was a perfect mechanic. There are many reasons why stealth is not adequate enough to act as one of our sole sources of defense (I’m looking at you Rapid Fire). But the answer isn’t to nerf it further, take away our only other defense mechanism (teleporting), or try to turn us into something we’re not. That helps no one.

Well, I’m not saying his design suggestions are good, or don’t end up somehow nerfing thiefs. That’s a collateral of him not being very thoughtful. He did state he wants to redesign it though. And i think at least there he is right on the point.

Thief class needs serious redesign, and if i where in the pvp balance team i would overhaul the entire thief mechanics. Not only that, but many other problems i see with the current pvp “balance” – this includes reworking other classes too.

Please say conquest and not"pvp" because of that mode the builds and rotations are limited it favors bunker builds anyway. WvW is the one place you feel “free” as a thief.

:O I am sure there are enough posts on the thief forums that could qualify as a redesign. They just need to be compiled together and kept afloat.

Thief is fine design-wise, it’s the hardest profession to play at a high level, and there’s always a profession like that. It’s high risk, high reward. If you’re struggling with thief it’s because you’re not managing risk. Watch these thieves if you think the profession is not effective.

Sizer: http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654/profile/past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/profile/past_broadcasts

jcavlopes.1736:

Well, I’m not saying his design suggestions are good, or don’t end up somehow nerfing thiefs. That’s a collateral of him not being very thoughtful. He did state he wants to redesign it though. And i think at least there he is right on the point.

Thief class needs serious redesign, and if i where in the pvp balance team i would overhaul the entire thief mechanics. Not only that, but many other problems i see with the current pvp “balance” – this includes reworking other classes too.

Well at least we can agree that some changes do need to made to the thief class and that what the OP suggested won’t do the class any good.

However, when you say redesign, do keep in mind that many of the mechanics that we have are what make us thieves. They’re what attracts us to the thief class. I don’t think that the mechanics themselves are broken. I just think they’ve been hit with the nerf bat too many times to be effective. Some simple tweaks would make a world of difference without changing the core play style of the class. For example, simply making it so that channeled skills don’t continue to target stealthed characters(cough Rapid Fire cough cough) and increasing the power of the various stealth attacks would be a huge improvement, buffing both our damage capabilities and survivability. The former is particularly important, as stealth is (theoretically) what is supposed to allow us to hold our own, despite lacking true damage mitigation. What’s more, it wouldn’t be throwing us too much of a bone since we’d still be rather squishy in general, AoE attacks could still damage us and we would still be effected by the “Revealed” status, forcing us to choose between getting the extra damage from a stealth attack or having the option to pop back into stealth immediately. I also agree that in order to achieve true balance in the sPvP and WvW scenes, balancing changes and tweaks have to be made to all classes. Hopefully Anet will eventually get around to doing that without getting nerf bat happy like they usually do.

Of course, I don’t claim to be an authority on game balancing. I’m sure some tweaks would have to be made to my suggestions to prevent them from throwing other classes out of viability, but you see my point. There are ways to change the thief class that are both true to the original play style and allow us to stay viable without becoming OP. Changes that don’t involve nerfing our already inadequate stealth or removing teleporting, which is using about as much care and finesse as a rampaging rhinoceros in a china shop…

Shockwave.1230:

Thief is fine design-wise, it’s the hardest profession to play at a high level, and there’s always a profession like that. It’s high risk, high reward. If you’re struggling with thief it’s because you’re not managing risk. Watch these thieves if you think the profession is not effective.

Sizer: http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654/profile/past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/profile/past_broadcasts

I will have to disagree with you here. First off, I wouldn’t classify thief as a high risk/reward profession. It is more like a high risk/low reward profession simply because the thief is only good for roaming and a niche or two in small scale battles. It is only when a highly experienced player gets on one that the thief becomes more effective at other game types and even then they are lackluster compared to other professions of the same skill.

Secondly the problem lies within build diversity, not effectiveness. The design philosophy might be sound but it’s construction is far from fine or even tolerable. For example, venoms are horrible by themselves but Venomous Aura (plus other traits) makes up for their crappy utilization. Or Shadowstep being the best stunbreaking utility in the game at the cost of the thief’s other stunbreaks being lackluster or worse. It is this kind of construction that makes thief a poor profession to play with and against.

Thief might be effective but only within a small scope of skills and builds. And even then, you have to be good to get to that level of effectiveness.

It is because of these factors that a complete overhaul is needed.

Shockwave.1230:

Thief is fine design-wise, it’s the hardest profession to play at a high level, and there’s always a profession like that. It’s high risk, high reward. If you’re struggling with thief it’s because you’re not managing risk. Watch these thieves if you think the profession is not effective.

Sizer: http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654/profile/past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/profile/past_broadcasts

Yes. Playing a thief is hard. Like you said, high risks, high rewards, and if it depended only on chance, you are mostly likely to be kissing the floor. All the same, people are able to master it and still be effective. I grant you all that.

However, just because you can show me a couple of cases where people manage to excel the profession, doesn’t automatically entitles you to say that everything is fine with it. Somethings are not just a L2P issue, no matter how much people like to insist in belittling others.

There are design flaws and they need to be issued. Just looking at something as basic as the thief steal ability gives us plenty of examples to think about:

I. If you successfully steal an item, you can’t see the cool-down timer for when steal will be up again. That information can be precious, yet this simple thing is not even possible with the current design unless i had used the item.

II. I can conceive a situation where i want to just dump the item i stole. If designers had really thought things through, they would have realized to create a option for you to do so. I may sound like I am making to much of a fuss out of nothing, but it really would make things a lot simpler. And its not like they ran out of keys to implement it.

So you see, I’m not even addressing actual steal bugs, but rather basic UI stuff that seem to just have passed the devs face unnoticed. And i don’t think any of those things are minor issues because at the end, they will affect playability.

jcavlopes.1736:

Shockwave.1230:

Thief is fine design-wise, it’s the hardest profession to play at a high level, and there’s always a profession like that. It’s high risk, high reward. If you’re struggling with thief it’s because you’re not managing risk. Watch these thieves if you think the profession is not effective.

Sizer: http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654/profile/past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/profile/past_broadcasts

Yes. Playing a thief is hard. Like you said, high risks, high rewards, and if it depended only on chance, you are mostly likely to be kissing the floor. All the same, people are able to master it and still be effective. I grant you all that.

However, just because you can show me a couple of cases where people manage to excel the profession, doesn’t automatically entitles you to say that everything is fine with it. Somethings are not just a L2P issue, no matter how much people like to insist in belittling others.

There are design flaws and they need to be issued. Just looking at something as basic as the thief steal ability gives us plenty of examples to think about:

I. If you successfully steal an item, you can’t see the cool-down timer for when steal will be up again. That information can be precious, yet this simple thing is not even possible with the current design unless i had used the item.

II. I can conceive a situation where i want to just dump the item i stole. If designers had really thought things through, they would have realized to create a option for you to do so. I may sound like I am making to much of a fuss out of nothing, but it really would make things a lot simpler. And its not like they ran out of keys to implement it.

So you see, I’m not even addressing actual steal bugs, but rather basic UI stuff that seem to just have passed the devs face unnoticed. And i don’t think any of those things are minor issues because at the end, they will affect playability.

Nice quality of life suggestions. I don’t see how these make the existing design bad though, to me these examples show how the existing design can be improved. The core mechanics are are still there with these ideas. It’d be nice if these suggestions existed already.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Shockwave.1230:

Thief is fine design-wise, it’s the hardest profession to play at a high level, and there’s always a profession like that. It’s high risk, high reward. If you’re struggling with thief it’s because you’re not managing risk. Watch these thieves if you think the profession is not effective.

Sizer: http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654/profile/past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/profile/past_broadcasts

I will have to disagree with you here. First off, I wouldn’t classify thief as a high risk/reward profession. It is more like a high risk/low reward profession simply because the thief is only good for roaming and a niche or two in small scale battles. It is only when a highly experienced player gets on one that the thief becomes more effective at other game types and even then they are lackluster compared to other professions of the same skill.

Secondly the problem lies within build diversity, not effectiveness. The design philosophy might be sound but it’s construction is far from fine or even tolerable. For example, venoms are horrible by themselves but Venomous Aura (plus other traits) makes up for their crappy utilization. Or Shadowstep being the best stunbreaking utility in the game at the cost of the thief’s other stunbreaks being lackluster or worse. It is this kind of construction that makes thief a poor profession to play with and against.

Thief might be effective but only within a small scope of skills and builds. And even then, you have to be good to get to that level of effectiveness.

It is because of these factors that a complete overhaul is needed.

I don’t understand how your points relate to a core mechanic redesign of the class. It looks like you’re suggesting to buff traits, weapons, and utilities that are underperforming. This is a fair point to make regardless of profession, as all professions have underperforming traits, weapons, and utilities. Build diversity is what everyone wants, but the relationship to a class redesign as some people have called for I don’t see.

You may not realize you’re saying this, but you’ve effectively communicated: “These handful of builds work really well, especially if you’re a good player. Because there’s only a few things that shake there way out to the top, the whole class needs redesigned, even the things that work.”

I don’t think the above logic makes sense, especially when it holds true for what appears to be every profession. Applying that logic means everything would be redesigned. That’s not necessary, balance is solid for what works, but build diversity does not equal balance.

Shockwave.1230:

I don’t understand how your points relate to a core mechanic redesign of the class. It looks like you’re suggesting to buff traits, weapons, and utilities that are underperforming. This is a fair point to make regardless of profession, as all professions have underperforming traits, weapons, and utilities. Build diversity is what everyone wants, but the relationship to a class redesign as some people have called for I don’t see.

You may not realize you’re saying this, but you’ve effectively communicated: “These handful of builds work really well, especially if you’re a good player. Because there’s only a few things that shake there way out to the top, the whole class needs redesigned, even the things that work.”

I don’t think the above logic makes sense, especially when it holds true for what appears to be every profession. Applying that logic means everything would be redesigned. That’s not necessary, balance is solid for what works, but build diversity does not equal balance.

You didn’t fully understand my point then. The things that work are keeping the things that are underperforming from becoming useable without being overpowered. This causes the profession to become very close to being a one-trick-pony which is bad design in general. Doubly so since this game tried to break away from specific combat roles.

The pigeonholing causes players to flock to those specific setups which in turn makes players who get wrecked by those setups to believe that because every player is doing it and it continues to be effective that it must be overpowered.

However, those issues are not going to be corrected anytime soon because that is the “core design” which you are trying to defend. It keeping the class from working like it should… like all the other professions and not just a backlines gankbot.

EDIT: I am all for keeping the physical design because it is fun to use, but the philosophical design needs tweaking and the contents need an overhaul.

I disagree with your sentiment that you can’t buff what’s underperforming, without making what’s already working too strong. That means you’re saying even though you want build diversity, it’s impossible to achieve.

Again though, these same issues exist regardless of profession. If you buff what’s underperforming there is “the risk” you make what’s strong stronger, but that’s only going to happen if you overlook mechanics.

Quite honestly, this pigeonholing argument can be made for all meta builds. I’m not sure why you feel thief is a one trick pony, because the builds available to thief play differently. If you mean it can’t fulfill roles where it can soak up damage, I would agree with you, but that does not make it a one trick pony.

If you feel the design is bad and shouldn’t be the way it is that’s fine, but I feel the design is good. You’re stating your opinion, I’m stating mine. I definitely think they could open up build diversity, I think there could be changes made to give thief more point presence. However, that doesn’t mean current builds will be buffed, or that what currently works has to be thrown away.

Shockwave.1230:

I disagree with your sentiment that you can’t buff what’s underperforming, without making what’s already working too strong. That means you’re saying even though you want build diversity, it’s impossible to achieve.

Again though these same issues exist regardless of profession. If you buff what’s underperforming there is “the risk” you make what’s strong stronger, but that’s only going to happen if you overlook mechanics.

Quite honestly, this pigeonholing argument can be made for all meta builds. I’m not sure why you feel thief is a one trick pony, because the builds available to thief play differently. If you mean it can’t fulfill roles where it can soak up damage, I would agree with you, but that does not make it a one trick pony.

If you feel the design is bad and shouldn’t be the way it is that’s fine, but I feel the design is good. You’re stating your opinion, I’m stating mine. I definitely think they could open up build diversity, I think there could be changes made to give thief more point presence. However, that doesn’t mean current builds will be buffed, or that what currently works has to be thrown away.

If you are so sure that simply buffing lackluster parts of the thief would do the trick, then come up with a venom buff that would make players use them more without touching their design.

thief needs survival utility !
and venom and traps are kinda a wasted utility slot

tie passive/active survival buffs to various venom skills

make traps a kit !

take a look at ALL our unused traits !

yolo swaggins.2570:

Shockwave.1230:

I disagree with your sentiment that you can’t buff what’s underperforming, without making what’s already working too strong. That means you’re saying even though you want build diversity, it’s impossible to achieve.

Again though these same issues exist regardless of profession. If you buff what’s underperforming there is “the risk” you make what’s strong stronger, but that’s only going to happen if you overlook mechanics.

Quite honestly, this pigeonholing argument can be made for all meta builds. I’m not sure why you feel thief is a one trick pony, because the builds available to thief play differently. If you mean it can’t fulfill roles where it can soak up damage, I would agree with you, but that does not make it a one trick pony.

If you feel the design is bad and shouldn’t be the way it is that’s fine, but I feel the design is good. You’re stating your opinion, I’m stating mine. I definitely think they could open up build diversity, I think there could be changes made to give thief more point presence. However, that doesn’t mean current builds will be buffed, or that what currently works has to be thrown away.

If you are so sure that simply buffing lackluster parts of the thief would do the trick, then come up with a venom buff that would make players use them more without touching their design.

There’s numerous ways to do that. They can change the tier of Venomous aura, they can move it to another tree, they can make changes to the traits in shadow arts to give the line different tools that offer better survivability when venom sharing, when they add weapons to the game they can add a weapon that synchronizes better with venoms. They can do things not mentioned, they can do some of the things mentioned, or all of the things mentioned.

Shockwave.1230:

There’s numerous ways to do that. They can change the tier of Venomous aura, they can move it to another tree, they can make changes to the traits in shadow arts to give the line different tools that offer better survivability when venom sharing, when they add weapons to the game they can add a weapon that synchronizes better with venoms. They can do things not mentioned, they can do some of the things mentioned, or all of the things mentioned.

But I am asking you. I can tell you right now that there is nothing an(yone)et can do with venoms that won’t break them and make them more of an option to the players without changing the venoms altogether.

That is just an example of my point. If you look through all of the traits and skills, the same design exists within them: OP-x to every UP-y. Most of them being mechanic related.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Shockwave.1230:

There’s numerous ways to do that. They can change the tier of Venomous aura, they can move it to another tree, they can make changes to the traits in shadow arts to give the line different tools that offer better survivability when venom sharing, when they add weapons to the game they can add a weapon that synchronizes better with venoms. They can do things not mentioned, they can do some of the things mentioned, or all of the things mentioned.

But I am asking you. I can tell you right now that there is nothing an(yone)et can do with venoms that won’t break them and make them more of an option to the players without changing the venoms altogether.

That is just an example of my point. If you look through all of the traits and skills, the same design exists within them: OP-x to every UP-y. Most of them being mechanic related.

The main point here is that if you want to make venom’s viable you don’t have to redesign the whole class.

Shockwave.1230:

The main point here is that if you want to make venom’s viable you don’t have to redesign the whole class.

With the amount of changes that should be made to the profession, it would be easier to start from scratch.

i like the class just, i just wish they did not nerf it with out compensation and we would not be in this place !

to many nerfs with little to no compensation

Thieves in the eyes of every other class will always be seen as broken(stealth off walls anyone?) or overpowered simply because Anet designed it entirely on stealth, and not as a tool to just enter or exit combat like most other games do. So much so that they’ve had to design stealth revealers to help with the problem.

If the class was designed with more focused on stealing and evading as their main combat abilities than stealth, I’m sure there wouldn’t be as much complaining. The life of a gw2 thief will always be under the call for nerfs for that mistake in design.

caveman.5840:

i like the class just, i just wish they did not nerf it with out compensation and we would not be in this place !

to many nerfs with little to no compensation

^^ This.

Sometimes nerfs are called for, no matter how fun it is to faceroll other players. The revealed status was a major hit to thieves when it was first introduced, but it was fair. It kept us from having too much of an advantage. It was ACTUAL balancing. But now we are getting whacked with the nerf bat every other patch. And our compensation? “We gave a slight buff to venoms by making venom-share work off of the thief’s condition damage.” Oh how nice… Except no one ever uses venoms or venom-share and you sure as h*ll aren’t going to convince anyone to start with a pathetic buff like that.

I understand that they are trying to encourage diversity and I’m not even against the idea. But severely nerfing what we already do well in exchange for a measly buff in something no one ever touches isn’t encouraging diversity.

It’s just making what we do that much harder to pull off… And that wasn’t easy to begin with.

Xenesis.6389:

Thieves in the eyes of every other class will always be seen as broken(stealth off walls anyone?) or overpowered simply because Anet designed it entirely on stealth, and not as a tool to just enter or exit combat like most other games do. So much so that they’ve had to design stealth revealers to help with the problem.

If the class was designed with more focused on stealing and evading as their main combat abilities than stealth, I’m sure there wouldn’t be as much complaining. The life of a gw2 thief will always be under the call for nerfs for that mistake in design.

True. But I also feel that people give the stealth mechanic WAY more credit than it deserves and that results in unfair nerfs on our end. Yeah, stealth is a very integral part of our kit, but that’s because it was SUPPOSED to be our “damage mitigation”. In practice however, it doesn’t play out that way. We still take damage and receive conditions when stealthed, leaving us vulnerable to AoEs. Most stealth abilities last for only 3 seconds (4 with the right traits), which isn’t a lot of time to reposition yourself or completely disengage from a fight. Sure there’s Shadow Refuge, but that only works if you stay in it for the full duration, making it easy for opponents to spam the area with attacks. We don’t have any skills that block or reflect damage besides Smokescreen (and that only blocks projectiles) and unless you go fully into SA, you take just as much damage from an attack in stealth as you would out of it.

And on top of all that, we’re squishy. So much so, that we have a health pool comparable to most of the light armor classes, and they have TRUE damage mitigation.

Now given all of that, how is making channeled skills continue to track us while stealthed in any way justified? One of our only sources of protection… The “damage mitigation” for our squishy, high risk playstyle… And Anet hits us with a nerf like that? THAT’S balance?

This is what I see all the time when the devs start looking at thieves. Our class is in no way easy to play. It never was. And yet we keep getting nerfed as if we have some unfair advantage over everyone else.

An obvious troll is obvious.
I can’t even imagine someone even writing it seriously. Why do we need a 2nd warrior class?
And people above who say thieves are weak and need some buffs… wtf.
Thief is such an super-duper awesome I can’t even begin to imagine how a buff to us won’t make us completely broken.
Though I’ll give you that: I’ve been feeding wvw/pvp first 100ish hours of playing thief. But from that I’ve became a monster. Thief is quite skill-based, and it’s important to get the hang of enemy abilities to dodge them properly and strike at the right time(it’s important for every class in gw2, but it’s of the most importance to thieves)

Evalia.7103:

An obvious troll is obvious.
I can’t even imagine someone even writing it seriously. Why do we need a 2nd warrior class?
And people above who say thieves are weak and need some buffs… wtf.
Thief is such an super-duper awesome I can’t even begin to imagine how a buff to us won’t make us completely broken.
Though I’ll give you that: I’ve been feeding wvw/pvp first 100ish hours of playing thief. But from that I’ve became a monster. Thief is quite skill-based, and it’s important to get the hang of enemy abilities to dodge them properly and strike at the right time(it’s important for every class in gw2, but it’s of the most importance to thieves)

I will give you that the thief class is definitely more technically challenging than most classes. (I might even go as far as to say it’s the most challenging, but that’s subjective) It’s definitely a very skill based class and isn’t an easy one to get the hang of. None of us debate that fact, or even necessarily want to change it. What we’re all talking about is that we keep receiving nerfs in spite of this.

So you can still own as a thief. Good for you. Many of us still can. But just because some people can still succeed in the role doesn’t mean that we aren’t being repeatedly weakened or that these changes to the class are justified. I’ve been playing the class for a long time and while I don’t claim to be a top tier player, I do know what we were once capable of. I’ve also watched as people cried out for nerfs to the class since day one. And Anet happily obliged. At first, the changes were reasonable. But it didn’t stop there. Time and time again we have been on the receiving end of the nerf bat, so much so that the one thing we could do really well (high burst damage) is now being done in a significantly more effective manner by the likes of Warriors and Elementalists. Surely you’ve seen the stories here on the forum. Players being blamed for their team’s defeat, solely because of the fact that they chose to play a thief. Teammates threatening to AFK if they are forced to play on the same team as a thief. Sure, they’re idiots who shouldn’t be trying to control other players, but these new trends still point to a real problem. It’s more than a L2P issue. These nerfs are slowly but surely pushing us out of the meta.

Which beings me to another point. You mentioned that you need a very high level of skill to succeed as a thief. This is true and always has been. But if that’s the case, then why on earth are we still receiving nerfs? If anything, one would think Anet would leave us alone, since it’s already harder to succeed at playing thief than it is many of the other classes. I mean seriously… Super squishy, very little damage mitigation, less overall power compared to other classes… It takes A LOT of work to do thief correctly, and even then, sometimes we’re just outmatched. But you wouldn’t think that way looking at the number and severity of nerfs we’ve seen. You’d think we were nothing but a bunch of button mashers.

Long story short, we all know that the thief is a tough class to roll. In fact, I think that’s something we all like about it. But there’s a difference between difficulty and not being viable. And lately, it seems like we’re edging uncomfortably close to the latter. THAT is what we’re upset about.

Zero Day.2594:

Really, I would be satisfied if they attempted to do a redesign, or showed signs of awareness at this point.

Awareness OP at this point. It’d be best to ignore the herd of elephants in the office and keep the gem store releases on schedule.

NinjaEd.3946:

Zero Day.2594:

Really, I would be satisfied if they attempted to do a redesign, or showed signs of awareness at this point.

Awareness OP at this point. It’d be best to ignore the herd of elephants in the office and keep the gem store releases on schedule.

It really makes sense that anet doesnt pay attention to really get it’s game classes a consistent, decently playable design. When most people care more about looks than gameplay, it really makes a very profitable idea to keep releasing dollar bought cosmetic stuff than to push your sleeves up and get some real work done.

Hey, at least we will look good at our coffins. Isn’t that what’s all about?