Guild Wars 2

I wasn’t expecting to post such a topic one since I’m doing pretty well against every other classes (or at least I know my and their weaknesses) and because rangers are generally really bad in WvW and often mean “free kill”, but I came across 2 specific guys last few days I could hardly handle.

I play a Bound dodger Staff / double Pistols thief. The 2 guys had one thing in common: I could have ignored them – they wouldn’t have been able to kill me. Unfortunately, I couldn’t let them cap all our camps either, and since the BL update, the level on our server (and probably every server) has dropped drastically so I had to do the job myself (most of the players rather follow the zerg).

Guy 1: trap ranger wit trapper runes. His traps were easily avoided, and really, he couldn’t kill me. But I couldn’t kill him either. Too much stealth (yea, I know… it’s coming from a thief…), and a bunker build.

Guy 2: power longbow build with traps. That guy was different. He was pretty good. Going melee was hard due to the traps, and LB #3 + timed dodges made him almost impossible to kill. Since I couldn’t let him raid our camps, I decided to go P/P and hassle him, and the fight lasted 10 mins or so. He knew how to dodge my telegraphed attacks (Unload, Vault), so I had to outsmart him at some point and fake attacks till I could finally hit him with Basilisk Venom and finish him (I’m skipping the part where he sent me rude / racist PMs right before that). Still, that was probably the longest fight I’ve ever had, and I can’t help but thinking I could have made it easier.

Any advices from fellow thieves? How do you deal with that kind of guys? I have no issue with stealth classes in general and win the majority of my fights against other thieves (D/D or D/P). But stealth + long range + bunkerish build (at least for the 1st guy) – I’m not sure how to handle it.

dagger storm when he lb #2 go d/p.

Pretty much what Legenduu said. Dagger Storm is your anti-ranger skill.

It depends on your gear as well sometimes. Most rangers/druid are not much of a problem but those that run bunker LB/staff trapper runes are very good at spreading distance. Yes I could catch up but that puts me at a vulnerable situation with less initiative or dodge.

Another one that I rarely run across but scares me the most is the same build but with full berserker/marauder. Their LB hits so hard that requires bl0wing quite a few dodges before I can get close and they always have traps ready to reposition. I can kill them if I catch them off guard or stay away to not get killed but I can easily kill myself too if I over commit and make a small mistake.

You’ll never kill anyone with a power build other than “uplevels” and the “baddys”. You’re best solution is to go full condition damage.

As long as ArenaNet favors bunker builds and nerfing power builds, you’ll just have to find an effective way to bypass all the tanky stats — that is using condition damage built around poison.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’ll never kill anyone with a power build other than “uplevels” and the “baddys”. You’re best solution is to go full condition damage.

As long as ArenaNet favors bunker builds and nerfing power builds, you’ll just have to find an effective way to bypass all the tanky stats — that is using condition damage built around poison.

Holy kitten is this false. Regardless what people seem to believe a well played power build is still the most effective build for thief. From my experience power thief can kill any class or spec though clearly some are more difficult than others.

As for trapper rangers that are power it’s not a fun match-up since they have that stealth. It sounds counter intuitive, but you want to instantly set off their traps when they use them for stealth since ranger traps reveal them. And since they aren’t condi their damage won’t be that high on the traps. Besides that the usual counter to ranger with well timed interrupts should work fine. Or you can just walk away from them since they’re probably not worth the time.

Helly.2597:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’ll never kill anyone with a power build other than “uplevels” and the “baddys”. You’re best solution is to go full condition damage.

As long as ArenaNet favors bunker builds and nerfing power builds, you’ll just have to find an effective way to bypass all the tanky stats — that is using condition damage built around poison.

Holy kitten is this false. Regardless what people seem to believe a well played power build is still the most effective build for thief. From my experience power thief can kill any class or spec though clearly some are more difficult than others.

Ah, yes, it’s as effective as a wet noodle trying to stab a brick wall. Difficult? Try impossible.

I’m curious to know what bunker build you find killable by a Thief’s power build. Please, enlighten us with what is true.

As for trapper rangers that are power it’s not a fun match-up since they have that stealth. It sounds counter intuitive, but you want to instantly set off their traps when they use them for stealth since ranger traps reveal them. And since they aren’t condi their damage won’t be that high on the traps. Besides that the usual counter to ranger with well timed interrupts should work fine. Or you can just walk away from them since they’re probably not worth the time.

Why walk away if a power build is as effective as you believe it to be?

You call my post “false” yet you have nothing to show for it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

Complain all you want about bunker builds they aren’t unkillable. There are dozens of videos of thieves playing power builds killing every type of build out there. Can you be mindless and just spam vault into them? Probably not.

A lot of people point to scrapper as a bruiser bunker, you can kill it as power thief if you play well. Honestly that should be the class (besides dh which is a counter for other reasons) that gives thieves the most trouble, yet there are lots of videos of it being done. I can post my own videos of duels against scrapper if you want, but I prefer to not post videos of my own outside the threads I make for them.

And I give the advice to walk away from any build you don’t get enjoyment out of fighting. If you’re trying to improve your play it’s not the best call but if you’re trying to get more enjoyment out of the game it’s fine to.

You’re welcome to continue hiding behind the concept that condi thief is your necessary evil that allows for you to kill these bunker builds. And I’m free to call bs on it and say you can kill any build as power thief currently with the possible exception of a good condi warrior, but that trucks pretty much every build.

Would you care to give examples of what builds you struggle to fight?

Trap ranger is usually weak vs cc, burst and ranged dmg. If it is a bunker it can be very hard to kill in 1vs1, but it should be easy to kite and to avoid most dmg. A less tanky power/hybrid build should die to a a well timed cc + burst combo. I would definitely stick with Basi Venom. No decent ranger should have issues vs daggerstorm, and it has too long cd to be really usefull.
I guess d/p or s/p would work the best, p/p might be good too because of the range. Condi can work or not, depending on the ranger’s build. Trap ranger can have good condi remove.

Helly.2597:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

Complain all you want about bunker builds they aren’t unkillable. There are dozens of videos of thieves playing power builds killing every type of build out there. Can you be mindless and just spam vault into them? Probably not.

A lot of people point to scrapper as a bruiser bunker, you can kill it as power thief if you play well. Honestly that should be the class (besides dh which is a counter for other reasons) that gives thieves the most trouble, yet there are lots of videos of it being done. I can post my own videos of duels against scrapper if you want, but I prefer to not post videos of my own outside the threads I make for them.

And I give the advice to walk away from any build you don’t get enjoyment out of fighting. If you’re trying to improve your play it’s not the best call but if you’re trying to get more enjoyment out of the game it’s fine to.

You’re welcome to continue hiding behind the concept that condi thief is your necessary evil that allows for you to kill these bunker builds. And I’m free to call bs on it and say you can kill any build as power thief currently with the possible exception of a good condi warrior, but that trucks pretty much every build.

Would you care to give examples of what builds you struggle to fight?

We’re not talking about “any builds” we’re talking about bunkers. Typically a bunker will opt to a condition based build where a Thief will die sooner than they are able to take the bunker down.

Here’s an example. How do you kill this build with your power build without dying first.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

We’re not talking about “any builds” we’re talking about bunkers. Typically a bunker will opt to a condition based build where a Thief will die sooner than they are able to take the bunker down.

Here’s an example. How do you kill this build with your power build without dying first.

So you made a build that is never seen to prove a point? Most necros won’t take those utilities but OK.

Regardless with d/p I’d focus on exploiting the mobility advantage thieves have over necros. Necro is plagued with horrible access to stability and that build isn’t using shouts for stability either allowing for interrupts to disrupt the rotation. Save steal for stealing stability in shroud for another interrupt and land the long duration fears once they leave shroud. Kite shroud timing interrupts to land on their ds #2 if possible, don’t stand inside ds #4 and evade the #5. Kite out the plague form because who the kitten takes that and expects a thief to stand there. Try and bait out the fear wall and then move away while hitting interrupts. Keep distance until wall is down then reopen with shadowshot for damage and blind. I don’t think the fight would be even close to impossible, more likely a 50-50 match-up at worst with more likely 75-25 due to which interrupts you land.

But regardless the point is whether power thief is better than condi thief in these situations. How is your condi thief going to go about taking down a competent necro?

Helly.2597:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

We’re not talking about “any builds” we’re talking about bunkers. Typically a bunker will opt to a condition based build where a Thief will die sooner than they are able to take the bunker down.

Here’s an example. How do you kill this build with your power build without dying first.

So you made a build that is never seen to prove a point? Most necros won’t take those utilities but OK.

Regardless with d/p I’d focus on exploiting the mobility advantage thieves have over necros. Necro is plagued with horrible access to stability and that build isn’t using shouts for stability either allowing for interrupts to disrupt the rotation. Save steal for stealing stability in shroud for another interrupt and land the long duration fears once they leave shroud. Kite shroud timing interrupts to land on their ds #2 if possible, don’t stand inside ds #4 and evade the #5. Kite out the plague form because who the kitten takes that and expects a thief to stand there. Try and bait out the fear wall and then move away while hitting interrupts. Keep distance until wall is down then reopen with shadowshot for damage and blind. I don’t think the fight would be even close to impossible, more likely a 50-50 match-up at worst with more likely 75-25 due to which interrupts you land.

Nice story. You have shown how little you understand how that bunker build works. You throw a lot of assumptions that favors your outcome rather than taking what is based on reality. Your mobility means nothing because you’ll have to get close if you want to take that bunker down, which will be your undoing. You’ll be loaded with conditions as soon as you get in range then it’s gg from there. And no, you can’t kite a Reaper shroud because when this build goes Reaper it means it will finish you off. You have no way to apply pressure because you need to get close to do that. If only you are dealing condition damage, unfortunately, you’re not.

But regardless the point is whether power thief is better than condi thief in these situations. How is your condi thief going to go about taking down a competent necro?

No power build can penetrate that 3k armor and the only way to bypass that is to hit them using condition damage. Even your own power build from your videos, which relies on surprise attacks and burst, will not have any chance at going toe to toe with this build — you don’t even have condition removal in your build. Once you take Chill, you’re SoL.

The very strength of a bunker is their ability to apply massive condition damage while having a lot of staying power due to high health pool and armor — or a lot of healing capabilities.

How do I win with a bunker? Here’s the recent iteration of my condition build.

So you can call BS all you want, but it’s fairly obvious that the BS is not coming from my direction.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nice story. You have shown how little you understand how that bunker build works. You throw a lot of assumptions that favors your outcome rather than taking what is based on reality. Your mobility means nothing because you’ll have to get close if you want to take that bunker down, which will be your undoing. You’ll be loaded with conditions as soon as you get in range then it’s gg from there. And no, you can’t kite a Reaper shroud because when this build goes Reaper it means it will finish you off. You have no way to apply pressure because you need to get close to do that. If only you are dealing condition damage, unfortunately, you’re not.

But regardless the point is whether power thief is better than condi thief in these situations. How is your condi thief going to go about taking down a competent necro?

No power build can penetrate that 3k armor and the only way to bypass that is to hit them using condition damage. Even your own power build from your videos, which relies on surprise attacks and burst, will not have any chance at going toe to toe with this build — you don’t even have condition removal in your build. Once you take Chill, you’re SoL.

The very strength of a bunker is their ability to apply massive condition damage while having a lot of staying power due to high health pool and armor — or a lot of healing capabilities.

How do I win with a bunker? Here’s the recent iteration of my condition build.

So you can call BS all you want, but it’s fairly obvious that the BS is not coming from my direction.

As much as I love keeping up this thread, it’s become clear you can’t be reasoned with. I gave a scenario of how the fight ideally plays out and my mindset for the approach and mapped out how I’d play the match-up. And that’s suddenly not what you wanted?

How am I being loaded by conditions? He had marks and that’s it for range conditions and I’ve got three dodges and interrupts to hurt him from range. Along with a huge number of blinds to mess him up when I engage at close range. I’m not saying its always going to be a win but honestly I’m fairly confident that even in a duel setting it wouldn’t be nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.

And chill making me SoL? What? Chill and cripple removed on dodge and you think chill is an issue? Do you even play thief?

1.6k isn’t a lot of condition damage and the utilities you gave the necromancer gives it no way to condi spike me assuming I don’t make a big mistake.

3 conditions removed on shadowstep return, chill removal, and torment removal on heal should be just about fine. Again not saying you can mindlessly use it but it’s doable definitely.

And no I didn’t ask how you win with a bunker I asked how you are going to kill the necro on your condi thief. And the build you posted won’t have nearly enough damage to down the necro build you linked especially if he hits his condi transfers. It will be the two of your fighting forever.

This is honestly my last reply. We disagree, I respect your opinion that condition is the only way, even though from my experience it’s not true. Keep playing thief your way and I’ll keep playing it my way. This has taken the thread very far from what op asked.

More on topic for fighting Rangers.

Make sure you are going combos with the stolen item. Rangers give water field which interacts with projectiles for regeneration. The other suggestion is to use body shot to help land unloads (so no dodging out of them).

Another trick using staff is to have a source of stealth so that you can use the stealth attack knockdown for some free burst. Also, if you are using an off-hand dagger (such as with D/D then the pet is always a good reliable source of CnD.

Helly.2597:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nice story. You have shown how little you understand how that bunker build works. You throw a lot of assumptions that favors your outcome rather than taking what is based on reality. Your mobility means nothing because you’ll have to get close if you want to take that bunker down, which will be your undoing. You’ll be loaded with conditions as soon as you get in range then it’s gg from there. And no, you can’t kite a Reaper shroud because when this build goes Reaper it means it will finish you off. You have no way to apply pressure because you need to get close to do that. If only you are dealing condition damage, unfortunately, you’re not.

But regardless the point is whether power thief is better than condi thief in these situations. How is your condi thief going to go about taking down a competent necro?

No power build can penetrate that 3k armor and the only way to bypass that is to hit them using condition damage. Even your own power build from your videos, which relies on surprise attacks and burst, will not have any chance at going toe to toe with this build — you don’t even have condition removal in your build. Once you take Chill, you’re SoL.

The very strength of a bunker is their ability to apply massive condition damage while having a lot of staying power due to high health pool and armor — or a lot of healing capabilities.

How do I win with a bunker? Here’s the recent iteration of my condition build.

So you can call BS all you want, but it’s fairly obvious that the BS is not coming from my direction.

As much as I love keeping up this thread, it’s become clear you can’t be reasoned with. I gave a scenario of how the fight ideally plays out and my mindset for the approach and mapped out how I’d play the match-up. And that’s suddenly not what you wanted?

How am I being loaded by conditions? He had marks and that’s it for range conditions and I’ve got three dodges and interrupts to hurt him from range. Along with a huge number of blinds to mess him up when I engage at close range. I’m not saying its always going to be a win but honestly I’m fairly confident that even in a duel setting it wouldn’t be nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.

And chill making me SoL? What? Chill and cripple removed on dodge and you think chill is an issue? Do you even play thief?

1.6k isn’t a lot of condition damage and the utilities you gave the necromancer gives it no way to condi spike me assuming I don’t make a big mistake.

3 conditions removed on shadowstep return, chill removal, and torment removal on heal should be just about fine. Again not saying you can mindlessly use it but it’s doable definitely.

And no I didn’t ask how you win with a bunker I asked how you are going to kill the necro on your condi thief. And the build you posted won’t have nearly enough damage to down the necro build you linked especially if he hits his condi transfers. It will be the two of your fighting forever.

This is honestly my last reply. We disagree, I respect your opinion that condition is the only way, even though from my experience it’s not true. Keep playing thief your way and I’ll keep playing it my way. This has taken the thread very far from what op asked.

If that is your position then you have no grounds to call BS. Good day.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’ll never kill anyone with a power build other than “uplevels” and the “baddys”. You’re best solution is to go full condition damage.

As long as ArenaNet favors bunker builds and nerfing power builds, you’ll just have to find an effective way to bypass all the tanky stats — that is using condition damage built around poison.

LOL

best comment ever i’ve seen 2016 lol!

Just a few word to say if I haven’t replied since the OP, I’m still reading this topic with interest. Changing the weapon sets I use is out of question though: I’m not gonna go D/P just because I have an issue with one guy .

@ saerni: yep, good advice. I have misused the stolen skill, and that’s something I should have done better, definitively. I often use Pistol #2 as well, but I expect that second guy to have been really experienced as a thief: he could recognize every skill animation and react accordingly, which made him a real pita to fight (again, to beat him, I had to start faking attacks to caught him off-guard at some point with a simple AA + basilisk venom, followed by a burst).

dude….
s/d power thief vs Bunker guard – guard dies quick
vs Bunker war – slightly more annoying due to blocks but easy enough when you know their cooldowns

vs bunker necro (normally MM) – again, easy if you dodge their marks and constantly apply pressure – abuse their cooldowns
vs bunkerish ele – constant pressure seeing as they dont hurt you at all and you just wear them down (takes forever imo)
vs rev – pressue, when they pop shield, dont go ham, when you see the heal signet pop, dont go ham, when they switch legend – go ham
vs engi – get inside of them, like proper up close and constant pressure and go ham if you want
vs mes – everything is telegraphed, practice against other mesmers and just follow the one that has the most buffs
vs ranger – takes forever – based on enemy skill – feel free to disengage alot and annoy them, the will fall eventually
vs thief? 2 shot them

etc…

See the pattern, everything will die if you apply pressure.

learn to thief.
/rant