Guild Wars 2

The only way for thieves to have higher single target dps than warriors is to have ambush trap and thieves guild out while the warrior just needs to be swapping from gs to axe. That doesn’t make any sense. Would be hard to change this without massive balance issues but really thief should have higher attack damage on daggers than warrior has on axe autos. Maybe if everything on the 1 bar for single target attacks ignored armor values it would help balance the issue.

When you have a dagger or pistol out and are only hitting 1 target, you are a able to aim for the vulnerable areas like the gaps in the armor, the neck, and the eyes. When you have an axe or gs out, you’re just smashing through the armor and don’t give a crap about where you’re aiming. Reason why things like hs and sword autos don’t count is b/c you’re just trying to smash things, not really aiming anywhere in specific.

If you don’t agree with me then that’s fine but I still feel something should be done to make it so thieves have higher single target dps than what a warrior can do in an aoe.

No.
Thief auto attack has utility such as a condition and slight endurance regen. All the warrior one does is damage. And if build glass cannon auto attack for thief auto attack can hit hard enough to get the job done.

The poison is at the very end of the chain and only lasts 2s, that’s 2 ticks for 300 damage. Dagger is also a power weapon so why would a condition even matter? Only good use for it is in pve on bosses with regen. It will never affect a heal for anything in pvp or wvw. You’ll be lucky to get the full chain off in pvp or wvw. Not to mention the bosses that use healing as a mechanic are few and far between. Bosses like simin even ignore the poison when it comes to healing. The end gain is good but the double strike is JUNK. Hits twice for about 75% as much as wild strike alone (650-800 average with glass cannon crits). Wild and lotus both deal average 2k. On triple chop, each axe hit does 4k+ and not just to 1 target, but to 3 or 5. There’s a problem there.

the damage on daggers comes from other attacks, just like the rest of warrior axe attacks are utility(cripple, vuln) not including the burst ability since that’s a profession skill. Also the dagger chain is much easier to land than the axe attack chain due to it’s speed, at least to me.

This isn’t a small discrepancy, though, Artificer. It’s HUGE. Not even a close contest. I play both, and the amount of damage my Warrior can put out without being full Berserker compared to my D/D backstab Thief in full Berserker on a single target makes me cry.

Artificer.3468:

the damage on daggers comes from other attacks, just like the rest of warrior axe attacks are utility(cripple, vuln) not including the burst ability since that’s a profession skill. Also the dagger chain is much easier to land than the axe attack chain due to it’s speed, at least to me.

The burst skill is a part of warrior axe. That’s like saying you can’t count grenade barrage as a grenade skill b/c it’s on the toolkit. It comes with picking axe (or grenades) so it’s a part of the weapon. Also imo they are both fairly easy to land since axe has better range and the mentioned aoe is significant in a LOT of situations. With daggers, if you don’t have a target you could be accidentally hitting the wrong thing or hs could throw you way off your course due to auto targeting. No problems with either of those things on axe.

Auesis.7301:

This isn’t a small discrepancy, though, Artificer. It’s HUGE. Not even a close contest. I play both, and the amount of damage my Warrior can put out without being full Berserker compared to my D/D backstab Thief in full Berserker on a single target makes me cry.

Not to mention a warrior doesn’t have to have defensive anythings to be survivable whereas the thief needs something non-zerker in their traits to take any hits from anything. The choices are great but still, it matters.

randomfightfan.4091:

The poison is at the very end of the chain and only lasts 2s, that’s 2 ticks for 300 damage. Dagger is also a power weapon so why would a condition even matter?

the poison is there to get you that nice “10%dmg if target has a condition” thing…
Thats why your power trait line has cond duration on it…

lLobo.7960:

randomfightfan.4091:

The poison is at the very end of the chain and only lasts 2s, that’s 2 ticks for 300 damage. Dagger is also a power weapon so why would a condition even matter?

the poison is there to get you that nice “10%dmg if target has a condition” thing…
Thats why your power trait line has cond duration on it…

true but not all power thieves go 25 or 30 into power line but more importantly, 90% of the time the target will be subjected to at least 1 other condition from somewhere else. Even if the player is 25 into power, they usually get vuln from their crits or cnd. Heck even blind are easy enough to maintain if you have pistol off-hand. Lastly, if the poison from the aa chain is the only source for a condition, then where is that 10% damage boost going to come from on the 1st chain and any time you back off to dodge or stealth or something?

I do like the poison on the final strike, it’s just not a good enough reason for dagger autos to be so low in comparison when thief is supposed to have the highest single target dps.

Hahahah well go play warrior then. You get more damage but no stealth.

why would that be the go to answer? Seriously, all it does is avoid the whole issue and topic. Btw, I have 7 lvl 80s and warrior isn’t the one I like the most so that’s why I’m posting here.

randomfightfan.4091:

why would that be the go to answer? Seriously, all it does is avoid the whole issue and topic. Btw, I have 7 lvl 80s and warrior isn’t the one I like the most so that’s why I’m posting here.

Yea! Personally I think it’s stupid my mesmer doesn’t have as big autoattack as warrior, can’t perma stealth and it’s also stupid that I can’t take a flame thower from my pocket!

…

Point is, you can’t just steal the class mechanic (here big numbers of warrior) to another class without making that class overpowered.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Yea! Personally I think it’s stupid my mesmer doesn’t have as big autoattack as warrior, can’t perma stealth and it’s also stupid that I can’t take a flame thower from my pocket!

…

Point is, you can’t just steal the class mechanic (here big numbers of warrior) to another class without making that class overpowered.

mechanic is thieves are SUPPOSED to have the highest single target dps. We don’t even have the highest single target spike (which I am fine with). Sorry but your point isn’t relevant here.

A warrior does not have acces to stealth, blinds, poison and his only evade is on greatsword. That’s why he needs more raw damage, if a thief could do more damage up front, why have a warrior class at all?

Auesis.7301:

This isn’t a small discrepancy, though, Artificer. It’s HUGE. Not even a close contest. I play both, and the amount of damage my Warrior can put out without being full Berserker compared to my D/D backstab Thief in full Berserker on a single target makes me cry.

Not sure if bad thief or good warrior…

Swim.6830:

Auesis.7301:

This isn’t a small discrepancy, though, Artificer. It’s HUGE. Not even a close contest. I play both, and the amount of damage my Warrior can put out without being full Berserker compared to my D/D backstab Thief in full Berserker on a single target makes me cry.

Not sure if bad thief or good warrior…

http://www.speedyshare.com/NtGUr/Character-Excel-Sheet.xlsx

Play with it, and try and find Thief single-target DPS that comes close to Warrior AoE DPS. I’ll be waiting.

randomfightfan.4091:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Yea! Personally I think it’s stupid my mesmer doesn’t have as big autoattack as warrior, can’t perma stealth and it’s also stupid that I can’t take a flame thower from my pocket!

…

Point is, you can’t just steal the class mechanic (here big numbers of warrior) to another class without making that class overpowered.

mechanic is thieves are SUPPOSED to have the highest single target dps. We don’t even have the highest single target spike (which I am fine with). Sorry but your point isn’t relevant here.

I’m not sure where you go this information, All I’ve ever heard from developers is they want the thief class to be the most mobile, with decent spike damage capabilities. Nothing about “highest ST DPS”…..

Please show a link to verify this statement.

Adane, check the last State of the Game stream. It is explicitly stated that Thieves should have the highest burst damage in the game, not just “decent”. They are considering upping damage co-efficients on weapon skills to this effect, not that I expect anything significant until Hell freezes over.

Auesis.7301:

Adane, check the last State of the Game stream. It is explicitly stated that Thieves should have the highest burst damage in the game, not just “decent”. They are considering upping damage co-efficients on weapon skills to this effect, not that I expect anything significant until Hell freezes over.

Highest burst damage =/= highest dps

And I stated otherwise…when?

Adaneshade.2409:

I’m not sure where you go this information, All I’ve ever heard from developers is they want the thief class to be the most mobile, with decent spike damage capabilities. Nothing about “highest ST DPS”…..

Please show a link to verify this statement.

Auesis.7301:

Adane, check the last State of the Game stream. It is explicitly stated that Thieves should have the highest burst damage in the game , not just “decent”. They are considering upping damage co-efficients on weapon skills to this effect, not that I expect anything significant until Hell freezes over.

Wrong part is bold. I was responding to “decent spike damage capabilities”. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was talking about the single-target DPS when I specifically quote the “decent” part? :S

Auesis.7301:

Wrong part is bold. I was responding to “decent spike damage capabilities”. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was talking about the single-target DPS when I specifically quote the “decent” part? :S

Because he only wanted a respond on the DPS part :P

Well too bad, aaaa do wut i want! /fingerwave

Auesis.7301:

Wrong part is bold. I was responding to “decent spike damage capabilities”. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was talking about the single-target DPS when I specifically quote the “decent” part? :S

And you took my post completely out of context as well. The entire post was referring to the statement that that thieves were “SUPPOSED to have the highest single target dps” and it’s inaccuracy. Burst and mobility are the thief meta in the developer’s eyes according to what they’ve said. Nothing about being the top sustained dpser.

warriors have always had the highest dps melee aoe in game….thieves HAD the highest single target. now thieves are tied for 2nd/3rd with warriors even tho warriors deal more dmg by atleast double. speed of their gs is faster than our 1hs? wierd. dmg is higher too and targets up to 5 in 130 range. when mug was nerfed thief went from 1st on single target dps to 3rd.

randomfightfan.4091:

mechanic is thieves are SUPPOSED to have the highest single target dps. We don’t even have the highest single target spike (which I am fine with). Sorry but your point isn’t relevant here.

DPS != Burst

Thieves have burst, warriors dps. Plus, thieves have stealth and shadowsteps.

thieves dont have burst anymore tho….burst…in my opinion is more than a 2 strike combo……right now its CND to BS….mug is gone so idk if i would define burst as a 2 strike combo especially when each is a 50% success to hit rate. :P just me tho. only burst in game belongs to mesmers now.

randomfightfan.4091:

The only way for thieves to have higher single target dps than warriors is to have ambush trap and thieves guild out while the warrior just needs to be swapping from gs to axe. That doesn’t make any sense. Would be hard to change this without massive balance issues but really thief should have higher attack damage on daggers than warrior has on axe autos. Maybe if everything on the 1 bar for single target attacks ignored armor values it would help balance the issue.

When you have a dagger or pistol out and are only hitting 1 target, you are a able to aim for the vulnerable areas like the gaps in the armor, the neck, and the eyes. When you have an axe or gs out, you’re just smashing through the armor and don’t give a crap about where you’re aiming. Reason why things like hs and sword autos don’t count is b/c you’re just trying to smash things, not really aiming anywhere in specific.

If you don’t agree with me then that’s fine but I still feel something should be done to make it so thieves have higher single target dps than what a warrior can do in an aoe.

Here is your answer, Scootabuser made calculations
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Build-The-REAL-maximum-DPS-thief/first

Scootabuser.4915:

This is after the next patch that switches the reveal back to 3 seconds. More DPS and an easier rotation then the warrior, but more difficult to survive.

Traits

Gear:
Berzerkers
Ruby Orbs
Sigil of Force
Sigil of Accuracy (Can be higher with 25 stacks of sigil of perception)
Butternut Squash Soup
Superior Sharpening Stone

Max DPS Rotation
CLoak And Dagger
Backstab
Auto Chain
Repeat

Total DPS while behind boss: 8669
With 25 Stacks: 9060

Stop saying warriors out-DPS thieves, it’s not true.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Build-The-REAL-maximum-DPS-warrior/first#post1886080
guys, you have to DOWNLOAD the spreadsheet in the link, the default builds on that thing are NOT what I used, the default builds on the spreadsheets use omnomberry bars and the wrong traits with bad rotations and are missing sigils.
Also, if you want to add a dodge into the rotation, you can do it yourself, a dodge takes .75 seconds and you can dodge every 10 seconds SO
CnD
Backstab
Auto
CnD
Backstab
Auto
Dodge
THAT BEING SAID, why. This is what’s called theoretical DPS. It is not an accurate in game measurement, rather it is a tool for understanding how different classes compare. For example, the theoretical DPS of ranged weapons are usually around 3-4k DPS, 10-50% less damage then melee. AN did this on purpose for the exact reason that sometimes melee people have to back out and BLAH BLAH BLAH
Applied DPS is the in game accurate one, but to do that, you need a DPS counter and ALOT of trials. And I mean ALOT of trials, and it’s going to change per player. So from a scientific perspective applied DPS isn’t as useful when looking at things like class balance, or best builds.
DEEP BREATH
ok im done

well, ambush and guild aren’t just dps boosts. they also cc and interrupt.

thieves cycle skills much faster than wars, comparing straight dps output of the 2 classes isn’t really meaningful, or comparing bursts for that matter.

dagger and axe have the same auto base, which is higher than anything else in the game.

@rayya
Thieves don’t gain might on crit, thieves don’t add multiple stacks of vuln. That calculation was done assuming both had 25 stacks of might and the target had 25 stacks of vuln. Since thief can’t achieve either of those things by themselves, the warrior would have the advantage there. And about the link of highest single target dps from mods or w/e I don’t have a link, all I have is the word of hundreds of players that say thieves are supposed to have the highest single target dps. If this isn’t meant to be the case then common knowledge is wrong. Don’t get all huffy puffy about it please.

And since warrior/mesmer (am fine with mesmer being higher since theirs take time to set up and are vulnerable) has higher single target dps than thief but in an aoe and warrior/mesmer both have higher single target spike (also in aoe), where does that leave thief? Not saying thief doesn’t have its use, just saying it needs some love despite what the masses seem to think.

randomfightfan.4091:

mechanic is thieves are SUPPOSED to have the highest single target dps.

Oh?

Auesis.7301:

This isn’t a small discrepancy, though, Artificer. It’s HUGE. Not even a close contest. I play both, and the amount of damage my Warrior can put out without being full Berserker compared to my D/D backstab Thief in full Berserker on a single target makes me cry.

This even goes for Conditions too if you ever tried 1H Sword. Warrior DMG is just too insane and too easy compared to Thief and they’re more durable w/o even trying. (I play 80 Thief and 80 Warrior too). They mine as well make Dagger an AOE too since I think high single target DPS is going to be a Taboo thing. Thief is my fav still but there’s so much unsatisfaction in this class~ the constant nerfs that create more bugs and broken skills doesn’t help.

Btw to everyone saying how thieves aren’t supposed to be highest single target dps please show me a link that verifies that thief is NOT supposed to have the highest single target dps. Hard to prove or disprove.

Meow.

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

^
Didn’t hear a single word of them saying they wouldn’t be able to have the highest single target dps. They are supposed to have the highest mobility (sadly aren’t there yet) and highest burst (also don’t have). Doesn’t look like what is supposed to be, is.

To OP:
What are you smoking?
The thief’s attack has condi and does extra back stab damage. For christs sake thieves back stab me on my warrior for 9k+ at times (with 30 points into defense running hammer sword/shield), the only for me to do that is with HB which never works because people don’t stand still or a killshot which has a long cast time.
Put those drugs down and get a grip!
(on a side note thieves can also basically stay invisible forever if they keep using CnD)

Warriors are supposed to have more raw damage than thieves, more sustained damage. We’re supposed to have the highest burst to kill someone and then run away. That’s at least how it was meant to be, which now is nerfed..

randomfightfan.4091:

^
Didn’t hear a single word of them saying they wouldn’t be able to have the highest single target dps. They are supposed to have the highest mobility (sadly aren’t there yet) and highest burst (also don’t have). Doesn’t look like what is supposed to be, is.

Mobility I could almost understand, but for the rest: high =/= highest, and you have Doggie’s text strapped on your face this time.

Time to move on.

MrForz.1953:

randomfightfan.4091:

^
Didn’t hear a single word of them saying they wouldn’t be able to have the highest single target dps. They are supposed to have the highest mobility (sadly aren’t there yet) and highest burst (also don’t have). Doesn’t look like what is supposed to be, is.

Mobility I could almost understand, but for the rest: high =/= highest, and you have Doggie’s text strapped on your face this time.

Time to move on.

don’t understand a word of what you said but for higher burst, mesmers get their blured frenzy and 4 shatters off (self-shatter) near instantly. It’s hard to set up but it is a very possible burst combo. I’ve seen blured do 10k and each shatter of the 4 do 6k a piece. That’s a potential 34k burst. I’ve also seen warriors hit 18k kill shots. That is also vs full exotic lvl 80s. The highest I’ve ever seen a thief backstab someone (that wasn’t using frenzy) was 9k. Now that mug is nerfed we have a maximum of a 5k cnd and 9k backstab. 14k damage. How is that 14k spike higher than the warrior 1 hit 18k or the mesmer dream spike of 34k?

And for mobility, ele used to have better mobility but now it’s only very close. Warriors still do have slightly better mobility with gs and sword warhorn and if they use rush, then they beat us by a solid margin.

Quakeman.9378:

(on a side note thieves can also basically stay invisible forever if they keep using CnD)

Invisibility =//= Immunity, when people are going to get that? And if a thief is CnD’ing you to stay in stealth all the time, its a l2p matter then.

warrior has the best running/sprint away skills in game….hard to call mobility into question as that is a combination of speed….sprint…and evasion. but running away….it goes warrios then thief/mes tied. the average backstab is 5.5k dmg…and thats IF and ONLY IF thieves are using hidden killer wtih an above average dmg build. without hidden killer BS averages around 2850 ish i would venture my guess. same with CND ……. but the thing about thes 2 skills is they barely if at all have a 50% average hit to miss ratio. thieves are having a hard time finding a place in group play. they still can do decently in 1 v 1 but in zerg/8v8 its hard to really contribute …..especially only being single target dmg builds……remember less dmg but more targets is always better in group play. so not only do thieves have maybe the 3rd or tied for 2nd highest DPS…..they have the worst defense….and the worst AOE dmg in game….and 2nd worse hp total. idk…..without that insane burst i dont see the trade off. stealth helps. but low hp…low defense….no invulnerability ….no real burst….no blocks….no dmg reduction….. just hardly seems to come relatively close to balancing for the stealth ability.

Travlane.5948:

warrior has the best running/sprint away skills in game….hard to call mobility into question as that is a combination of speed….sprint…and evasion. but running away….it goes warrios then thief/mes tied. the average backstab is 5.5k dmg…and thats IF and ONLY IF thieves are using hidden killer wtih an above average dmg build. without hidden killer BS averages around 2850 ish i would venture my guess. same with CND ……. but the thing about thes 2 skills is they barely if at all have a 50% average hit to miss ratio. thieves are having a hard time finding a place in group play. they still can do decently in 1 v 1 but in zerg/8v8 its hard to really contribute …..especially only being single target dmg builds……remember less dmg but more targets is always better in group play. so not only do thieves have maybe the 3rd or tied for 2nd highest DPS…..they have the worst defense….and the worst AOE dmg in game….and 2nd worse hp total. idk…..without that insane burst i dont see the trade off. stealth helps. but low hp…low defense….no invulnerability ….no real burst….no blocks….no dmg reduction….. just hardly seems to come relatively close to balancing for the stealth ability.

at least our shortbow auto is good

MrForz.1953:

randomfightfan.4091:

^
Didn’t hear a single word of them saying they wouldn’t be able to have the highest single target dps. They are supposed to have the highest mobility (sadly aren’t there yet) and highest burst (also don’t have). Doesn’t look like what is supposed to be, is.

Mobility I could almost understand, but for the rest: high =/= highest, and you have Doggie’s text strapped on your face this time.

Time to move on.

Master of high single target damage sounds like Highest to me. Sure doesn’t say Warriors are a master of it.

ITT: Thief complaining about warriors.

Nothing to see here, move along.

wookie.8934:

ITT: Thief complaining about warriors.

Nothing to see here, move along.

then you completely missed the entire point of this post. It’s about why doesn’t the thief have the tools that they should have such as highest mobility, highest single target burst, highest single target dps. These should be thief exclusive qualities but sadly thief is outshined in them all.

Why would thieves have highest single target dps? Where is the logic here, does this feel enjoyable for pvp to you?

Highest burst would be fine but highest sustainable single target dps?

Are they supposed to lose duels?

Have you ever faced a war as thief?

Do you often lose?

I think most thieves beat wars in open combat (at least I do in wvw, spvp can be very different).

Now a good war can beat a good thief but in my experience thieves usually win. Giving them a damage boost would create too big of an imbalance in pvp.

The d/d auto attack could be buffed a bit but not to do more damage than a war.

Axe autos are absurd, and Forceful Greatsword is one of the strongest traits in the game.

That’s basically it. A thief specced 100% for max backstab damage would do slightly more damage than Cyclone Axe with autos in between, all else equal – except the Warrior has access to a ton of incredibly strong group damage boosting utilities, which the Thief does not.

So you can consider the Thief once you have both the power and precision banners up, plus 25 stacks of might and permanent fury. At that point a properly specced Thief will put out around 5% more damage than another Axe.

If you compare that to an Axe/GS Warrior that swaps for his GS cooldowns then goes back to Axe, well, nothing can touch that character in terms of raw DPS.

Also note that landing a backstab every 4 seconds is the only thing in the game that gets even remotely close to Axe/GS Warrior – and that all the Axe/GS attacks cleave. Axe auto-attacks are roughly 30% stronger than any other auto in the game, and the weapon has strong burst skills on it as well. Very few characters can touch an AFK Axe auto-attacker, regardless of skill selections or trait set-ups.

wookie.8934:

ITT: Thief complaining about warriors.

Nothing to see here, move along.

u missed their points i think…..i mean yes they complained about warriors but the deeper ideas totally bypassed ya :P its about thieves….not warriors……about how they dont fit their role anymore and others do even tho they are nto supposed to. its about thieves coming up short in the best at what they do without being boosted at their weakpoints for obvious nerfs. thats all. warriors are fine not asking for a nerf/change :P just asking for thief to have a role :P used to be burst dmg then bouncing. not anymore. so its a reconfiguring time.