Guild Wars 2

How do you guys think thiefs (And Daredevil) will do in raids? As i see it, so many other classes has the same damage, with better support and better defence? The only pro to thief would be more dodging, and stealth, but how often would stealth be needed in a single encounter? I love thief, but i will be focusing my time on raids, and thief seems underpowered here :/

DingoVad.1945:

How do you guys think thiefs (And Daredevil) will do in raids? As i see it, so many other classes has the same damage, with better support and better defence? The only pro to thief would be more dodging, and stealth, but how often would stealth be needed in a single encounter? I love thief, but i will be focusing my time on raids, and thief seems underpowered here :/

No one can interrupt as much as a thief. Assuming boss fights will require interrupt/cc, thief will get a slot.

Gabriell.4856:

DingoVad.1945:

How do you guys think thiefs (And Daredevil) will do in raids? As i see it, so many other classes has the same damage, with better support and better defence? The only pro to thief would be more dodging, and stealth, but how often would stealth be needed in a single encounter? I love thief, but i will be focusing my time on raids, and thief seems underpowered here :/

No one can interrupt as much as a thief. Assuming boss fights will require interrupt/cc, thief will get a slot.

with the new introduced break bar, headshot is not that nice anymore. but without any break bar, you are right.

Black powder is strong too. I think thief will always have a spot considering their mobility and dps

Every decent guild out there has Thieves in their ‘Focus Party’.
This group has the purpose to harass and take out the enemy backline (ele’s, necro’s etc.) or other “high profile” characters such as the opposing Focus Party (taking out the enemy commander is possible, but it’s a bit of a low blow).

Thieves got the tools to stealth a group, a pletora of gap closers and the possibility to get out of sticky situations where others can not.

Playing a Thief along raids requires good positioning and a keen eye for safe targets to pick of. It’s an interesting playstyle that really only the Thief excels at, followed by Mesmers and potentially Rangers and Engineers.

EDIT#1: I forgot about the Daredevil part… Well that’s simply too early to say. Right now it seems like it allows a D/P player to better manage initiative vs endurance so that’s got something going for it. Outside of that, it’s just speculation.

EDIT#2: Wait… Are you on about PvE raids that have been announced?
Really confusing terminology…

Haha yeah, meant pve raids.
But a nice answer anyway, since i just can´t seem to find a place for my thief, as a new player, i feel like thiefs has no place in this game, besides roaming? And it makes me sad because it is the most fun proffession to me :/

In raids (if they are anything like other raids in other games) DD should be monstrous. Remember that soft CC also affects the breakbar, and we have loads of that (Blind, Cripple etc) as well as a couple of nice hard CCs now (Palm Strike + Uppercut). During burn phases (where bosses are controlled in to a state they can’t move, like Teq) we have enormous amounts of damage (that could be got through spamming Weakening Charge on Staff through a big hitbox or just backstabbing), we have Stealth utilities to res downed players safely, and various other things that Thieves usually do in PvE, mostly pertaining to blinding the heck out of trash etc.

Raids are not only encounters (or at least I hope so) and a thief could possibly trigger interruptors or any mechanisms better than any one else. I mean getting behind the ennemis lines, activating it and coming back safely.

one exemple that come to my mind is one of the elite zones from gw1:

-In the urgoz labirinth you couldn’t open a door without a necro ( or at least the skill necrotic travel ) that could teleport you to a dead body on a cliff, switch on the gate interruptor and come down. ( that cliff was inacessible from any other means, except maybe for assassins ).

And if we have to split into 2 or 3 groups a little bit of blindness and cc could make it much less difficult.

I think thief is in terms of DPS worse than warrior, engineer, ele, necro, and possibly revenant. Additionally mesmer, guardian has much better support.

Thieves have:
-very good dps
-the longest projectile reflect in the game (dagger storm)
-access to easy group stealth
-spammable blast finisher for crazy might stacking
-large amounts of non-weapon blinking, for carrying bundles faster (as some PvE content requires)

I’m not to worried about the Thief’s place in raids

assassin.7895:

I think thief is in terms of DPS worse than warrior, engineer, ele, necro, and possibly revenant. Additionally mesmer, guardian has much better support.

really?

rogerwilko.6895:

assassin.7895:

I think thief is in terms of DPS worse than warrior, engineer, ele, necro, and possibly revenant. Additionally mesmer, guardian has much better support.

really?

No.

DingoVad.1945:

How do you guys think thiefs (And Daredevil) will do in raids? As i see it, so many other classes has the same damage, with better support and better defence? The only pro to thief would be more dodging, and stealth, but how often would stealth be needed in a single encounter? I love thief, but i will be focusing my time on raids, and thief seems underpowered here :/

Thieves have more than just stealth and if they design encounters well, we’ll be using all our tools frequently.

1) Blinds. Spammable and perfect for making trash mobs manageable.
2) Stealth rez. This will probably be very useful, particularly if content is made as hard as they say.
3) Mobility. Need to move this object from this place and put it in that thing? Thieves can do that faster than anyone else.
4) Burst. Yea, we’re top DPS now, but not one can say how the classes will compare after all the beta testing and class balance. However, we still do awesome burst, which is pretty fundamental to our class. This is why a thief is great for taking out the gate in CoF P1.
5) CC. Defiance bar? Pop basi venom and start spamming headshot or pistol whip.

kaikalii.4198:

Thieves have:
-very good dps
-the longest projectile reflect in the game (dagger storm) Wall Reflection untraited has 10s and less cooldown
-access to easy group stealth
-spammable blast finisher for crazy might stacking
-large amounts of non-weapon blinking, for carrying bundles faster (as some PvE content requires)

I’m not to worried about the Thief’s place in raids

NapTooN.6283:

kaikalii.4198:

Thieves have:
-very good dps
-the longest projectile reflect in the game (dagger storm) Wall Reflection untraited has 10s and less cooldown
-access to easy group stealth
-spammable blast finisher for crazy might stacking
-large amounts of non-weapon blinking, for carrying bundles faster (as some PvE content requires)

I’m not to worried about the Thief’s place in raids

Actually Revenants have 100% projectile block – tablet upto 20s and then they have a 6s reflect every 12s on the hammer.

Also with regards to the list:

-very good dps As do most of the other classes
-the longest projectile reflect in the game (dagger storm) See above
-access to easy group stealth easy yes, though engineers can do it too and have higher dps
-spammable blast finisher for crazy might stacking no longer a big issue sadly, because of Phalanx warrior, still kinda useful
-large amounts of non-weapon blinking, for carrying bundles faster (as some PvE content requires) Off the top of my head, shadow trap and shadowstep. Can’t think of others (steal needs a target, whilst IA is gone whilst carrying a bundle). The former 2 have longish cd so not that much quicker

Dahkeus.8243:

Thieves have more than just stealth and if they design encounters well, we’ll be using all our tools frequently.

1) Blinds. Spammable and perfect for making trash mobs manageable.
2) Stealth rez. This will probably be very useful, particularly if content is made as hard as they say.
3) Mobility. Need to move this object from this place and put it in that thing? Thieves can do that faster than anyone else.
4) Burst. Yea, we’re top DPS now, but not one can say how the classes will compare after all the beta testing and class balance. However, we still do awesome burst, which is pretty fundamental to our class. This is why a thief is great for taking out the gate in CoF P1.
5) CC. Defiance bar? Pop basi venom and start spamming headshot or pistol whip.

4) Is not true, hasn’t been for a little while. Condi engineer is number 1 at the moment, like 30% more dps than anything else at the moment.

@OP. Thieves are in an ok position, it all depends on where their dps ends up. From a meta PoV, if boon sharing is restricted to 5 come HoT, then thieves as well as some other classes will struggle.

Condi engineer is only higher Dps on long fights and they don’t have any burst. Burst =\= DPS.

And arguing numbers right now before HoT releases is a pretty ridiculous waste of time.

Dahkeus.8243:

Condi engineer is only higher Dps on long fights and they don’t have any burst. Burst =\= DPS.

And arguing numbers right now before HoT releases is a pretty ridiculous waste of time.

Yeah I just noticed your ‘burst’ keyword, but to clarify long, it’s 14s or more. That’s not particularly long and includes most boss fights and likely all the hard fights in the upcoming raids. Also ele’s are number one for more than 1 target in burst.

I just wanted to point out to the OP that Thieve’s dps aren’t a given to inclusion anymore, but you are right, until all elites are revealed and AN has finished their balancing we won’t know the exact dps rankings. Hence why I said:

Terra.8571:

@OP. Thieves are in an ok position, it all depends on where their dps ends up.

Venom-share thief + Ice Drake Venom & Devourer Venom = Insta-gib on any breaker bar. Use x/P and you have interrupts as well. Tack on condition damage with Skale Venom on D/D with Poison application trait, and you’ve got a thief that can destroy breaker bar, slow healing, get off 20 stacks of torment, with 20 stacks of vuln every time Skale Venom’s CD is up, AND be able to stealth your group.

Not sure about you, but that sounds like a winner to me. Toss in Basilisk Venom as your elite and you can even swap out Devourer Venom for Spider Venom for additional healing denial, and damage. Grab Leeching Venoms for self-healing and Might stacking while you’re at it.

Oh… and did I mention that you’ll simultaneously be a healer? Throw up Skelk Venom, and all of a sudden your allies are getting healed with their next few attacks. Shared venoms grow with the YOUR stats, not the stats of the people they get shared to, so throw in some Healing Power on your gear, and suddenly your allies all stack on you whenever they start getting low during the fight.

Thief is everything BUT a zero. We are all raiding HEROES!!! Throw your hands in the air like you just don’t care, because even if all of the above mentioned in my post weren’t true, thief is still all kinds of fun to play.

EDIT: Had a thought after posting. Since venoms only share up to 5 targets, that’s all the more reason to bring along 2 THIEVES!!! MUAHAHAHAHA. Coming soon. ALL THIEF RAIDING GROUPS!

Grenthblood.1358:

Venom-share thief + Ice Drake Venom & Devourer Venom = Insta-gib on any breaker bar. Use x/P and you have interrupts as well. Tack on condition damage with Skale Venom on D/D with Poison application trait, and you’ve got a thief that can destroy breaker bar, slow healing, get off 20 stacks of torment, with 20 stacks of vuln every time Skale Venom’s CD is up, AND be able to stealth your group.

Not sure about you, but that sounds like a winner to me. Toss in Basilisk Venom as your elite and you can even swap out Devourer Venom for Spider Venom for additional healing denial, and damage. Grab Leeching Venoms for self-healing and Might stacking while you’re at it.

Oh… and did I mention that you’ll simultaneously be a healer? Throw up Skelk Venom, and all of a sudden your allies are getting healed with their next few attacks. Shared venoms grow with the YOUR stats, not the stats of the people they get shared to, so throw in some Healing Power on your gear, and suddenly your allies all stack on you whenever they start getting low during the fight.

Thief is everything BUT a zero. We are all raiding HEROES!!! Throw your hands in the air like you just don’t care, because even if all of the above mentioned in my post weren’t true, thief is still all kinds of fun to play.

EDIT: Had a thought after posting. Since venoms only share up to 5 targets, that’s all the more reason to bring along 2 THIEVES!!! MUAHAHAHAHA. Coming soon. ALL THIEF RAIDING GROUPS!

This ‘would’ work in PvP if your team ‘would’ stay near when you when you venom share and IF you would not be melted pretty fast. Which you probably will.

In PvE, as I see it now, I would not spec as condi. We don’t know how many ‘structures’ there will be and how many fights will involve break bars.

Theory crafting is fun, and I really do hope condi thief will be USEFUL, but I would not set my hopes too high after the disappointment (for me DD = bullkitten) that was the last beta with weekend.

Condi Thief has been getting progressively more useful in PvE as new content such as Silverwastes has been released. Since the expansion areas are designed with similar goals in mind, Condi Thief will probably continue being useful in PvE… if played certain ways.

For what it’s worth, I think Impaling Lotus (has a fix on the way) and Impairing Daggers add a lot to Condi Thief. Bandit’s Defense isn’t too shabby, either… it flows nicely into P/D #3 in my opinion.

I sure hope the recipes for Runes of Tormenting and Perplexity are added to those mastery-linked rare goods vendors, though…

Just saying… Someone mentioned that thief interrupts will be pointless with boss breaker bars in PvE. I gave a solution that thieves themselves can provide for the group, alongside the interrupts.

rogerwilko.6895:

This ‘would’ work in PvP if your team ‘would’ stay near when you when you venom share and IF you would not be melted pretty fast. Which you probably will.

You may be surprised by the stats on a good Condi Thief.
I’m sitting at 20K Hp with just a hair under 3K Armor. I am very durable, and in nearly all cases will melt enemys just as fast as a DPS build.
Oh and many of your team will stay near you if your build is good and they have a chance to see what it can do for them.
Friends and I held back a 20 man zerg with just the 5 of us, for probably close to 20 minutes, while our people were taking another keep. This was due in large part to our 2 tanks and range users dealing unbelievable damage with my condition shares.

The thief will have several roles. It all depends on which one they pick.

#1: Rezzer/aggro management. Thieves are one of the best rezzers in the game, particularly because they can just drop a shadow refuge and nearly bring back a fully defeated player. If a player is getting harassed too much by a champ, stealth is an instant de-aggro.

#2: Thieves have the highest single target damage in the game when buffed. Given no other utility is needed, a thief will be in a default spot.

#3: Evasion tanking. The thief is very good at evades. Whether it be from their utilities and traits, or their weapon skills, a thief is capable of evading attacks for extremely long periods of time. It is high risk gameplay, but you’d be amazed what a good evade tank can accomplish.

#4:Thieves aren’t without control. Smoke screen blocks projectiles and blinds, dagger storm is also a long duration reflect. Any venomshare build can give the team mass immobilize (which the thief can already do quite well), mass chill, or even mass stun. I can’t imagine a champion who’s breakbar won’t be shattered by 5 basilisk venoms. On smaller enemies, scorpion wire can pull for crucial re-positioning, and the blind fields will still render them incapable.

#5: Boon stealing. It isn’t done as much anymore, but the ability to steal boons does have its niche uses. Bountiful Theft, in particular is a really strong skill that also acts as a group party buff, so if it yanks something like, say, quickness off of a boss, then your whole team gets to shred. The group vigor is just a plus.

#6: Thieves natively inflict a lot of poison, even on power builds. Poison has an anti-healing mechanic that, while seldom used, is quite valuable. Considering that warriors, guardians, mesmers, and elementalists don’t have any poison, this gives thieves another niche they fill.

#7: Spammable blast finisher. Its always around, so just saying.

#8: Thieves have high single target uptime for weakness. Lotus poison is 4 every 10 seconds, and Weakening Strikes is 5 every 10 seconds. If both are taken, this can amount to 9 seconds of weakness every 10 seconds. I’m not sure how break bars will work with weakness, but if they just cut it in half like defiance does, it is still a relatively high uptime of 45% on a champion. Sword auto attack adds more, Weakening Charge from staff adds more, leap finishers in poison fields add more, too.

All in all, the thief has many roles it can fulfill, and many of these roles aren’t done as well on other classes. Granted, a thief can’t do everything listed above all at once, but they are flexible enough to adapt to what is needed.

We Thieves like to complain a lot, but it’s really because of PvP. PvE wise, things are a lot more forgiving and we have more freedom to bring our full suite of tools to the table. It can be easy to forget that after getting blown up for the millionth time in SPvP, though…

All I can say is, DD Staff + S/P will see a lot of Raid runs. In as much as the Staff is under the scrutiny light right now, leap is sometimes better than shadowstep.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The thief will have several roles. It all depends on which one they pick.

#1: Rezzer/aggro management. Thieves are one of the best rezzers in the game, particularly because they can just drop a shadow refuge and nearly bring back a fully defeated player. If a player is getting harassed too much by a champ, stealth is an instant de-aggro.

#2: Thieves have the highest single target damage in the game when buffed. Given no other utility is needed, a thief will be in a default spot.

#3: Evasion tanking. The thief is very good at evades. Whether it be from their utilities and traits, or their weapon skills, a thief is capable of evading attacks for extremely long periods of time. It is high risk gameplay, but you’d be amazed what a good evade tank can accomplish.

#4:Thieves aren’t without control. Smoke screen blocks projectiles and blinds, dagger storm is also a long duration reflect. Any venomshare build can give the team mass immobilize (which the thief can already do quite well), mass chill, or even mass stun. I can’t imagine a champion who’s breakbar won’t be shattered by 5 basilisk venoms. On smaller enemies, scorpion wire can pull for crucial re-positioning, and the blind fields will still render them incapable.

#5: Boon stealing. It isn’t done as much anymore, but the ability to steal boons does have its niche uses. Bountiful Theft, in particular is a really strong skill that also acts as a group party buff, so if it yanks something like, say, quickness off of a boss, then your whole team gets to shred. The group vigor is just a plus.

#6: Thieves natively inflict a lot of poison, even on power builds. Poison has an anti-healing mechanic that, while seldom used, is quite valuable. Considering that warriors, guardians, mesmers, and elementalists don’t have any poison, this gives thieves another niche they fill.

#7: Spammable blast finisher. Its always around, so just saying.

#8: Thieves have high single target uptime for weakness. Lotus poison is 4 every 10 seconds, and Weakening Strikes is 5 every 10 seconds. If both are taken, this can amount to 9 seconds of weakness every 10 seconds. I’m not sure how break bars will work with weakness, but if they just cut it in half like defiance does, it is still a relatively high uptime of 45% on a champion. Sword auto attack adds more, Weakening Charge from staff adds more, leap finishers in poison fields add more, too.

All in all, the thief has many roles it can fulfill, and many of these roles aren’t done as well on other classes. Granted, a thief can’t do everything listed above all at once, but they are flexible enough to adapt to what is needed.

I was happy about the Weakness love Dare Devil gets, until i played my Ranger yesterday and found out that i can Perma Weakness with just a Mainhand Axe. All in All, Ranger is better at Weakness Uptime with a ranged Pet.

Terra.8571:

NapTooN.6283:

kaikalii.4198:

Thieves have:
-very good dps
-the longest projectile reflect in the game (dagger storm) Wall Reflection untraited has 10s and less cooldown
-access to easy group stealth
-spammable blast finisher for crazy might stacking
-large amounts of non-weapon blinking, for carrying bundles faster (as some PvE content requires)

I’m not to worried about the Thief’s place in raids

Actually Revenants have 100% projectile block – tablet upto 20s and then they have a 6s reflect every 12s on the hammer.

Hammer is projectile destruction, not reflect. Rev does not have reflect.