Guild Wars 2

tl;dr – I’m pretty sure I’m not doing this right, but I want to try to understand what’s wrong about it so I can figure out if I should give up or explore new options. Preferably before I go through the trouble of making ascended gear.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

When I was choosing my first class, I read the stealth part and cringed a bit, then read the agile, acrobatic…hard to hit part and was hooked. I love the idea of surviving based on my ability to avoid enemy attacks, but I hate using stealth as it removes any meaningful interaction with the other player.

I tried every weapon set and settled on pistol/pistol, which I now gather to have been a poor choice, but nothing else seemed remotely viable without spamming stealth. Of course, pistol/pistol is apparently not viable under any (non-PvE) circumstances, so…

Thing is, the non-stealth utility skills seem really lackluster. The venoms don’t work well at all with pistols and many of the others are designed around melee. I’ve had the best luck with Signet of Agility and Assassin’s Signet, then Roll For Initiative or Smokescreen depending on the enemy. I usually roll Withdraw as a heal since it gives me an extra disengage and has a low CD. I tried Hide in Shadows, but the stealth it gave was pretty useless since the pistol sneak attack is laughable on a non-condi build and it didn’t help with giving me breathing room against melee enemies. Signet of Malice is a mainstay in PvE, but against players I just don’t land as many hits due to lower hp pools and more dodges. Also, the burst healing is a must.

That said, the passive stat boost from the signets doesn’t make them worthwhile, though Agility is great for the extra dodges alone. Assassin’s active is awful on pistols, though. It doesn’t even last for a Full unload, and since the per-hit damage is so low anyway, the overall boost is miniscule compared to how great it is with melee attacks.

I don’t think I need to get into how disjointed P/P skills are, but as an overview…P1 hits for less damage than the random Shortbow I picked up the other day and at a shorter range and with only one target. It has a little bleed on it but I don’t have the hp pool to rely on bleeds unless I can watch safely from stealth. When I played (briefly) around a year ago, it had a combo progression like other skills…except that it was bugged. It seemed like it was supposed to be more of a rapid fire sort of thing, which was nice…guess that was scrapped?

P2 has rare uses. It’d need to immobilize longer to be worthwhile in general, though.

P3 is great after baiting out dodges but…since it’s the only way to do any damage (see: P1 sucks), it’s hard to bait said dodges since nothing else is a threat.

P4 is wonderful in that it rewards me for reading enemies, but it does less damage than P1 (which sucks) and uses nearly half of my initiative. I interrupt one enemy action by giving up an action (P3) that was probably more important to me than whatever I interrupted.

P5 is nice in that it is the only P/P skill that gives me a Combo Field, but said field is almost totally useless. It very rarely is nice when I’m out of dodges and in melee range since P3 will put a few more blinds out when used within it, but it uses over half of my initiative and…well…face tanking a melee is less than ideal.

I’m guessing that everything has to be balanced for the D/P and P/D builds as well, so rather than getting a full skill-set, I’m working with the sloppy seconds of more traditional stealth spam thieves?

Then, in terms of build…I really liked acrobat traits, but one more dodge didn’t amount to much since my damage to initiative ratio plummeted. Full damage (6/6/0/0/2) seems most successful. On that note, any foray into survivability gets slapped in the face by the fact that I need to be able to resolve fights quickly since other classes are much stronger if they get a second round of cooldowns and other thieves won’t take much longer to kill me. Not that one can really dodge a stealthed enemy anyway, since it means they keep their stealth q_q

I can tell from these forums and other’s comments that P/P is seen as rather weak, but I’m not sure whether Anet is planning to do anything about it. Thus, I may have chosen a class where interacting with the enemy means I’ve made a huge mistake. Any tips? Or hope?

If you’re looking for a more acrobatic thief, try a Sword/Dagger thief with the following build or some variant:
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Sword/Dagger

I’ll second that, you’ll enjoy S/D and it’s strong right now.

Played around with it a bit. I had tried it before, but not since hitting 80 I think.

I don’t like it as much as P/P, but it does have the upside of being a 5 skill set instead of 1.5 skills. I’ll have to see how it goes, though I mainly play WvW so I think I’ll have to tweak it.

What is your secondary when you play P/P? With pistol main, I found that using a weapon that doesnt require a target for autoattack helps a lot.

The way stealth works in gw2 means it is needed in many aspects including dmg and condi removal. Yeah, non stealth options are generally lackluster but they are still better than nothing and with 6/6/0/0/2 your only defence is offence. I liked 0/6/0/4/4 with IP and pain response for P/P.

Also, even stealth skills can be used aggressively, ie, blinding powder for sneak attack or sneak attack/unload from SR hurts a lot and heals. It is mainly SA that rewards for staying in stealth for long but stealth doesnt have to be played only that way.

If you really dont want a weapons set with access to stealth, S/P is good too. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-S-P-SB-WvW-30056/first#post4685100

Sneak Attack isn’t something I want to make a mainstay. It’s just not all that impressive with a pistol outside of condi builds.

Using SR for the dark field is a pretty good idea, though. It could also double as an escape from other thieves when they drop SR.

As a side note, is it not extraordinarily silly when a thief fights a thief? It’s like watching a ninja parade.

P/P can actually be pretty kitten good if played with the right build and playstyle. I’ve even ran it in unranked queues with my guildies at times. For P/P I’ve found the most success running panic strike, something like 6/2/0/0/6 with ricochet and hastened replenishment in the trickery line, using withdraw, Shadowstep, Shadow Refuge, and Smoke Screen or roll for initiative. (I prefer smoke screen) You’re very good at teamfights, as you can deal a great amount of ranged damage (and blinds if you run smoke screen) from a distance, allowing you to escape or push as needed. And it’s a lot of fun!

Since you like P/P and dislike stealth, I would recommend S/P. It’s burst is stealthless and has a nice evade tied to it. In that sense, it’s a little like close combat P/P.

66XXX has almost no survivability tied to it though. If you really want to get into an acrobatics style thief, I would say go at least XXX36 picking up feline grace, vigorous recovery, and bountiful theft. While your experience with acro hasn’t been anything special, once you stack vigor on top of feline grace, it becomes a lot better than just an additional dodge. For those last 5 points, I like spending them in DA myself. That will get you the power boost from the line as well as the +10% damage with the 5 trait.

For utilities, I really like shadowstep, signet of agility, and devourer venom. Devourer venom is great for making sure the whole pistolwhip lands.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAsa6al0Mp0pFOxrJ8PNxLh4960v1dRg+2C-TVSBwAmVCG5gAcT9HsK/Iu/Ae9DLeAAaOCAAOBABAOA+tv9tvB+95ff+3nLFggKjA-w

If we’re talking PvP, one of the biggest failing of this game (in my opinion) is that it’s dominated by instant attacks, AI, AoE and multi-hit attacks, making precise avoidance much less useful.
S/D is all about avoidance. However, a proper build with Acro/Trickery split does pathetic damage and is still incredibly squishy. You can still make it work with a bit (actually a huge lot) of practice.

If you are going for a stealth free Thief build I would recommend something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAsaVnMJSRT20EeNB/Tm4mg483zw7tklvoZAaNA

Gear to taste with beginning more on the bunker side and ease your way into more damage as you learn to time your cc, dodge, and mobility abilities. Also, S/P or S/D both work and is purely a personal preference, but I would definitely try and keep the Sb in there.

It really all depends on what your tastes are but thief was designed to have stealth as a defensive mechanism. Unless you are entirely serious about mastering this profession you are going to have a difficult time most of the way. Most of the utilities and traits thieves have access to is the reason why you nearly never see any variety in thief builds.

However if you still need help I know someone who can assist you in getting the feeling for the weaponsets and utilities, if you are interested.

When I roam on my necro I kill thieves in 3 seconds and get killed by thieves in 3 seconds (ok ok it takes a bit longer). The first thief goes to the forum and whines how weak the class is and the second one responses with “lol noob”. So where lies the truth? I guess somewhere between skill and luck.

Edit: and never consider WvW if you talk about balance decisions, in WvW the balance is completly of. Food etc makes it completly over the top.

Sviel.7493:

Played around with it a bit. I had tried it before, but not since hitting 80 I think.

I don’t like it as much as P/P, but it does have the upside of being a 5 skill set instead of 1.5 skills. I’ll have to see how it goes, though I mainly play WvW so I think I’ll have to tweak it.

Saying that you are playing mostly in WvW was like the most important thing you had to say. You should have said it in your initial post.

Have you tried D/P condition build? Yes it use a bit of stealth, but what can I said stealth is powerful.
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_P/D_Condi_roamer

Here is the most popular of those build.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqYVlsMp8pdPx0J8PNBTRwdRwg3xv1dtA-TVDBABxoDgHVDqZ/BHVCSqaOQcIAwSJkEHBAAOBAmp8JFNB5pFQ7HAQAgDgEOAWOlXe5We5lX+3lLFAMzBA-w

And this is Yishis build (a good roaming thief that create some really good video). The first build is pure tanky condition. While Yishis’ is more of an hybrid.

If you don’t like stealth at all, then S/D would be better for you.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_S/D_Roamer

But in the end P/P can be viable even if that’s not the greatest choice. I saw someone using it with trap. You could try that if you want.

Sviel.7493:

I can tell from these forums and other’s comments that P/P is seen as rather weak, but I’m not sure whether Anet is planning to do anything about it. Thus, I may have chosen a class where interacting with the enemy means I’ve made a huge mistake. Any tips? Or hope?

P/P is only relatively weaker in WvW since everyone opt-in to use condition bunker builds instead.

And it seems that ArenaNet likes the condition damage meta because it prolongs the fight and gives a lot of counter play and exchanges in applying and removing conditions — albeit boring — so no hopes for that.

However, despite the meta, there are those who still keep their builds because they’re really good at it, so you’ll still find a lot of Power/Crit builds.

As for myself, I keep my build simple and cheap and I do not go with the flow of the meta. I’ve been using my P/P build for as long as I can remember. The main point of my build is control, not so much Unloading, but instead making sure that I deny my target anything important. If you look closely, I have daze on Steal which is really important. Although you can daze using Headshot, the instant cast of Steal is unmatched. Scorpion Wire is great at interrupting long casting skills, mainly stomps. Not only that it knocks them down, but it also pulls them away from your ally.

So that’s my tips for you, no hopes (yet) unfortunately.

Ah, I’ve been playing for just under a month, so I didn’t think that it would make so much of a difference that I needed to say it up front, sorry

I have noticed a ton of condition builds and I can’t say that they give much room for healthy counterplay. Basically, they get tons of defense while ignoring their target’s defense and, if it’s a thief, they basically sit in stealth while the conditions tick away. Either you’re playing a class that can scrub conditions well or you’re screwed…surviving has rather little to do with your actions on the field.

At any rate, I’m not too worried about trying to beat those. The odds are way too stacked against me. Even when I deal damage to them, they just shrug it off while in stealth.

I switched out Assassin’s Signet for Shadow Refuge like someone suggested and spent some time learning other classes to improve my ability to dodge. Thus far, I think it’s going pretty well, though I’m definitely compromising some effectiveness for the P/P playstyle. I don’t really understand why thieves are, in general, ridiculously strong , but P/P is so underwhelming. Having experienced Killshot Warriors and rangers in general, it’s…perplexing.

I tried S/D and it worked better outside of group fights at first, but it felt like I was playing against myself. I won or lost based solely on my own performance; the enemy player may as well have been a sandbag.

I also looked up condition builds but they’re so frustrating to play against that I didn’t want to unleash more of that on the world.

Sviel.7493:

I don’t really understand why thieves are, in general, ridiculously strong , but P/P is so underwhelming.

Thieves are not that strong, people in general are just bad. Play against a good player on something like a terrormancer or condi engi and tell me how powerfull your felt while fighting one.

Thaddeus.4891:

Have you tried D/P condition build?

I think you meant P/D.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you look closely, I have daze on Steal which is really important. Although you can daze using Headshot, the instant cast of Steal is unmatched.

Headshot is also instant cast, (though there is a small amount of travel time for the projectile…)

Sviel.7493:

I tried S/D and it worked better outside of group fights at first, but it felt like I was playing against myself. I won or lost based solely on my own performance; the enemy player may as well have been a sandbag.

Personally, I see little problem with the fact of winning based on my GOOD performance, and losing based on my POOR performance. Why do you find that to be troubling?

Also, how would a person lose against a sandbag?

Most venoms don’t work.
Traps are bad.
Most tricks are lackluster.

Only thing left are decption skills and a few signets. Thives normally are stealth spam with dagger main hand or evade spam with sword+dagger.

For wvw you can also try p/d perplexity dire thief.

Mayama.1854:

Thieves are not that strong, people in general are just bad. Play against a good player on something like a terrormancer or condi engi and tell me how powerfull your felt while fighting one.

They’re very one-dimensional, but they’re strong in their own right. The ability to backstab someone for upwards of half of their hp with no cooldown other than the next stealth is over the top imo. Obviously, it won’t work against tankier condi builds, but high-mobility + stealth means the thief should always be able to get away. As a fairly glass player, it’s pretty frustrating since my only chance to win is to kill them in the 3 second window between their first attack and the subsequent stealth.

Warshade

Personally, I see little problem with the fact of winning based on my GOOD performance, and losing based on my POOR performance. Why do you find that to be troubling?

Also, how would a person lose against a sandbag?

Since it’s not a single player game, I want to have to react to what my opponent is doing. I want to win because I reacted to that dynamic situation well rather than because I pulled off a fairly memorized chain of inputs.

Sviel.7493:

Since it’s not a single player game, I want to have to react to what my opponent is doing. I want to win because I reacted to that dynamic situation well rather than because I pulled off a fairly memorized chain of inputs.

Personally, (when I am on my Mesmer for example), I find fights against Thieves to be some of the most fun & reactive battles I have. My least favorite tend to be against Rangers…but hey, that’s just me.

Sviel.7493:

They’re very one-dimensional, but they’re strong in their own right. The ability to backstab someone for upwards of half of their hp with no cooldown other than the next stealth is over the top imo. Obviously, it won’t work against tankier condi builds, but high-mobility + stealth means the thief should always be able to get away. As a fairly glass player, it’s pretty frustrating since my only chance to win is to kill them in the 3 second window between their first attack and the subsequent stealth.

Longest fight 20 min against a S/D thief who stealthed – one of the few who does that. I won in the end – but it was close – so he did react to what I was doing. My buddy (who told me that one of our fights lasted more than 30 mins – can’t remember that one – I should ask him who won and what class he was playing.. ) is also pretty good with S/D he ports a lot and that is one of the advantages of S/D. In the end: play whatever set suits you the most. And no, you won’t get away solemnly because you’re able to stealth – that’s one of the myths
Oh, and btw: I think every class can do as much damage as a backstab with a single skill. Eviscerate and rapid fire as an example, also clone shatters can be devastating, necro lich form and so on.

Rapid Fire (and Unload for that matter) do their damage over a second or two, making them much easier to avoid. If you eat the whole thing, it means you made a mistake. A backstab comes without warning and there’s very little one can do to mitigate the damage. Same can be said for shatters and lich form; one can tell what’s about to happen and can perhaps react favorably.

@Warshade
I’ve never played a Mesmer, but playing against them is hit or miss for me. I think I’ll enjoy it more once I better understand their trickery.

My least favorite fights are also against Rangers, btw. They just have soooo many tricks up their sleeve. The way I have to dodge twice for Rapid Fire, have to deal with a 6 second invuln, navigate their stealth and avoid their pet…not to mention that shot that knocks a target back/down. It feels like the fight is all but over by the time they have any openings.

Sviel.7493:

Rapid Fire (and Unload for that matter) do their damage over a second or two, making them much easier to avoid. If you eat the whole thing, it means you made a mistake. A backstab comes without warning and there’s very little one can do to mitigate the damage. Same can be said for shatters and lich form; one can tell what’s about to happen and can perhaps react favorably.

You can avoid backstabs too, just saying.
Just because someone is “invisible” doesn’t mean that they’re invicible or their victim completely helpless. And most classes have some kind of invulnerability.
If your idea is to sneak up behind an enemy and down him with one hit: ain’t gonna happen with thief.

Edit: Fixed messed up quote

How does one avoid backstab? Assuming you see the thief before they stealth, what do you do? If you pop an invuln, they can wait it out. If you dodge, their stealth doesn’t break. You can run, but they’re likely more mobile and don’t need any initiative to do the actual backstab. You can try to hit them, but it’s literally shooting/swinging blind. If you somehow avoid it until their stealth runs out, they have no cooldown before they can stealth again, assuming they don’t just stack CDs so that they never pop up.

My strategy for dealing with them is dodging after their initial strike after prepping Basilisk venom. If there’s something I can do to not start the fight with a 50% hp handicap, I’m all ears.

Sviel.7493:

How does one avoid backstab? Assuming you see the thief before they stealth, what do you do? If you pop an invuln, they can wait it out. If you dodge, their stealth doesn’t break. You can run, but they’re likely more mobile and don’t need any initiative to do the actual backstab. You can try to hit them, but it’s literally shooting/swinging blind. If you somehow avoid it until their stealth runs out, they have no cooldown before they can stealth again, assuming they don’t just stack CDs so that they never pop up.

My strategy for dealing with them is dodging after their initial strike after prepping Basilisk venom. If there’s something I can do to not start the fight with a 50% hp handicap, I’m all ears.

Multiple mechanics to avoid backstab: count to three and dodge; the backstab is wasted, CnD gives 5 secs stealth, I can waste as many as five backstabs during that time (my game is lagging, so I usually run after enemies and try to stab them) but if someone uses a dodge they’re pretty far away from me, also stealth does have a cooldown, it’s “revealed” and all mechanics gaining stealth cost a lot of initative. A blinding powder heartseeker combo is 3 secs of stealth and you’re not really close to your enemy anyway, so good luck getting behind them in time, especially if they run around and/or dodge. More tips to avoid backstabs: use basilisk venom (when thief) and your auto attack, stealth yourself (when thief) make yourself invulnerable (every other class but thief), apply heavy AoE. You can’t really wait out every invulnerability there is as a thief, problem is that stealth doesn’t last indefinitely – my friend uses all kinds of that when we’re duelling and I have a hard time getting my backstabs in.

Favourite fight against a thief was when he was spawn camping and I just died and was umm less than pleased – so he pops his basilisk venom and tries to steal while I dodge: All of his stuff is wasted and he was dead less than 5 secs after that.

Well what you can do is see them; they usually don’t run around stealthed – if they run in groups you’ll have a hard time fighting thieves, yes as the group members no matter the classes are distracting/dealing enough damage without that backstabbing thief.

Btw: I saw someone saying the SA line is rubbish the other day, someone who wanted advise with thief, I think. Was that you? If not; try going full SA to get some healing while stealthed. See it as a training wheel if you like or whatever.

Oh and I use blinding power for when a thief surprises me – they don’t get their backstab in.

How does dodging waste the backstab? If it’s evaded, stealth doesn’t break and they can just try again. Not to mention, if they weren’t in the act of stabbing, it’s a wasted dodge.

The ‘revealed’ business only happens if the thief breaks stealth by dealing damage, as in a successful backstab. If they don’t manage that, they can just keep cycling stealth. The non-utility stealths do cost a lot of initiative, but since the backstab itself costs none, that doesn’t really matter.

Yes, I can stealth to avoid the backstab, but then I must surrender whatever objective I was guarding to the enemy. Even then, it’s only a ham-handed draw at best since neither of us can see the other.

I do often see them before they stealth, but there’s little I can do about it. They disappear and generally use Shadowstep to close the distance. There’s also no shortage of times where I’m engaged in some other activity or combat and thus I don’t see them before they stealth.

I think the SA line is rather too good, actually, so it wasn’t me saying that. I don’t use it though as I don’t run a whole lot of stealth.

I don’t see how blinding powder is going to stop a backstab when you’re surprised. Unless they stop to wave at you, the ‘surprise’ is usually a knife in the ribs, no? Blinding them at that point matters little.

Sviel.7493:

How does dodging waste the backstab? If it’s evaded, stealth doesn’t break and they can just try again. Not to mention, if they weren’t in the act of stabbing, it’s a wasted dodge.

The ‘revealed’ business only happens if the thief breaks stealth by dealing damage, as in a successful backstab. If they don’t manage that, they can just keep cycling stealth. The non-utility stealths do cost a lot of initiative, but since the backstab itself costs none, that doesn’t really matter.

Yes, I can stealth to avoid the backstab, but then I must surrender whatever objective I was guarding to the enemy. Even then, it’s only a ham-handed draw at best since neither of us can see the other.

I do often see them before they stealth, but there’s little I can do about it. They disappear and generally use Shadowstep to close the distance. There’s also no shortage of times where I’m engaged in some other activity or combat and thus I don’t see them before they stealth.

I think the SA line is rather too good, actually, so it wasn’t me saying that. I don’t use it though as I don’t run a whole lot of stealth.

I don’t see how blinding powder is going to stop a backstab when you’re surprised. Unless they stop to wave at you, the ‘surprise’ is usually a knife in the ribs, no? Blinding them at that point matters little.

Alright: If you dodge a backstab you have got a different position and the thief will have to run after you – chances are that his stealth will run out before he’s able to land a perfect backstab (I just explained that actually).
If a thief surprises you he usually has got at least one attack before he’s able to backstab, either CnD or blinding powder/heartseeker/steal/shadowstep – use blinding powder during that attack and evade backstab. If the first thing you get is a backstab then well, watch your environement better or evade the next backstab.
I think with that I’ve said everything there is.
Just: If you’re a D/x thief stealth as much as you can, you don’t have to only stealth if you want to backstab someone use it to not reveal your position in combat.

So basically the only way to stop a Thief’s backstab is knowing beforehand there is a Thief and being able to anticipate his moves with divination or telepathy. Or you can accept him backstabing you in the first place and then hope to get lucky with his second try. Maybe he will not chase you! Good to know!

Ardid.7203:

So basically the only way to stop a Thief’s backstab is knowing beforehand there is a Thief and being able to anticipate his moves with divination or telepathy. Or you can accept him backstabing you in the first place and then hope to get lucky with his second try. Maybe he will not chase you! Good to know!

Isn’t that the case with every other class? And hey, 3 others can stealth too.

Ardid.7203:

So basically the only way to stop a Thief’s backstab is knowing beforehand there is a Thief and being able to anticipate his moves with divination or telepathy. Or you can accept him backstabing you in the first place and then hope to get lucky with his second try. Maybe he will not chase you! Good to know!

Thief backstab is easy to predict depending on which profession you are up against. D/P have a 3 second stealth and HS is about 1sec cast time, so you have a 2sec windows there. Usually I dodge between 1 and 2 second after he become invisible depending if he was close or not. It’s 3 second for Hide in Shadows. Blinding powder and Shadow refuge are a bit trickier. BP is instant so its a real 3 seconds of stealth and SR last a lot longer. In that situation I try to move as much as possible my back and run to make him miss. You also want to lay down aoe around you so he can’t approach you without losing some of his hp.

Another trick is to push the thief to backstab you as fast as possible. Give him a good target so he want to seize the opportunity and pop a defensive ability. You do that by rushing toward where he stealth, getting as near as possible to him and don’t move too much. I like to do that with my ranger, with my GS block or signet of stone, he will do a backstab without hurting me, revealing himself, while I’m waiting for him. You can also do that with a lot of profession, but not all of them.

Jana.6831:

Multiple mechanics to avoid backstab: count to three and dodge; the backstab is wasted, CnD gives 5 secs stealth, I can waste as many as five backstabs during that time (my game is lagging, so I usually run after enemies and try to stab them) but if someone uses a dodge they’re pretty far away from me, also stealth does have a cooldown, it’s “revealed” and all mechanics gaining stealth cost a lot of initative. A blinding powder heartseeker combo is 3 secs of stealth and you’re not really close to your enemy anyway, so good luck getting behind them in time, especially if they run around and/or dodge. More tips to avoid backstabs: use basilisk venom (when thief) and your auto attack, stealth yourself (when thief) make yourself invulnerable (every other class but thief), apply heavy AoE. You can’t really wait out every invulnerability there is as a thief, problem is that stealth doesn’t last indefinitely – my friend uses all kinds of that when we’re duelling and I have a hard time getting my backstabs in.

Favourite fight against a thief was when he was spawn camping and I just died and was umm less than pleased – so he pops his basilisk venom and tries to steal while I dodge: All of his stuff is wasted and he was dead less than 5 secs after that.

Well what you can do is see them; they usually don’t run around stealthed – if they run in groups you’ll have a hard time fighting thieves, yes as the group members no matter the classes are distracting/dealing enough damage without that backstabbing thief.

Btw: I saw someone saying the SA line is rubbish the other day, someone who wanted advise with thief, I think. Was that you? If not; try going full SA to get some healing while stealthed. See it as a training wheel if you like or whatever.

Oh and I use blinding power for when a thief surprises me – they don’t get their backstab in.

CnD gives 3 seconds of stealth. 4 if traited in SA. There is also no “waste” on backstab unless you hit something other than the target.

@OP
Daze and blinds are very powerful tools against stab thieves. Headshot at 900 range could interrupt a steal → CnD chain and give you a chance to evade properly.

As a thief, it’s usually preferable to strike second against another thief. If you see them, buff BV AFTER them unless they enter stealth, and get ready on a stun break. Make them engage you with theirs and break from BV and evade before they can land their own backstab while attacking them while they’re stunned.

Stealth lasts indefinitely with decent initiative management and the right utilities. This is especially so with shadow arts. Playing the thief and learning patterns/common placement techniques will make you able to predict the opponent’s movements better. Do not be afraid to auto-attack the air. If you hit them, the chain will continue, meaning that last strike hit them while stealthed and you can keep on them in that area.

Learning steal range will let you evade better as well. At around 900 range a dodge roll will often force other thieves to blow their steal benefits, mug damage/effects and BV. Learning where and when most thieves will engage from will help you beat them easily.

If they do stealth close to you, dodge on 2-2.5 seconds. Most thieves will not wait on the latter fraction of stealth to stab as unpredictable CC/cripples can cause it to be wasted otherwise. If they’re D/P, wait closer to 2.5.

I’d not run more than 2 points in SA. If you’re dying, use tankier gear and work your way closer to DPS as time progresses. Extensive use of SA/rejuv will create bad habits and promote poor play in the long run.

Venoms work excellently with pistols. I’d argue that P/P is venom’s best weapon set. Do recall with the Leeching Venoms trait that the damage only occurs once per hit regardless of the number of venoms currently active. Aside from BV, all venoms are instant-cast, and P/P just happens to have an 8-part attack (Unload). With some practice, you can use something like Ice Drake Venom, cast Unload, and then as soon as you’re halfway through Unload, cast Skale Venom on the remaining strikes, proccing all instances of leeching venom in one unload. With Lingering venoms on a proper time, you’re dealing an additional 4k damage from unload this way and healing for a substantial amount as well – nothing to sneeze at.

DeceiverX.8361:

CnD gives 3 seconds of stealth. 4 if traited in SA. There is also no “waste” on backstab unless you hit something other than the target.

[…]

I’d not run more than 2 points in SA. If you’re dying, use tankier gear and work your way closer to DPS as time progresses. Extensive use of SA/rejuv will create bad habits and promote poor play in the long run.

Ok, so it’s 4 secs if traited.
We discussed the “wasted” lengthy – it can be wasted as the stealth can run out beforehand and the best option then is to go heartseeker, unless you have a smart but handicapped player and try to sneak up ehind him to do the next CnD to try another backstab in the hope the guy will run out of dodges and won’t try to defend himself. You won’t have time anough to land a perfect backstab against a target who knows what they’re doing. Also stealth doesn’t last indefinitely, especially not as a D/D thief.
Anyway: I started with 4 in SA and went 6 in SA and would be stupid to not do it as my build relies on might. You can call that poor gameplay all you want, it is poor gameplay to you. To me putting x conditions into steal is poor gameplay – but at least I know it’s my personal opinon.

Jana.6831:

Ok, so it’s 4 secs if traited.
We discussed the “wasted” lengthy – it can be wasted as the stealth can run out beforehand and the best option then is to go heartseeker, unless you have a smart but handicapped player and try to sneak up ehind him to do the next CnD to try another backstab in the hope the guy will run out of dodges and won’t try to defend himself. You won’t have time anough to land a perfect backstab against a target who knows what they’re doing. Also stealth doesn’t last indefinitely, especially not as a D/D thief.
Anyway: I started with 4 in SA and went 6 in SA and would be stupid to not do it as my build relies on might. You can call that poor gameplay all you want, it is poor gameplay to you. To me putting x conditions into steal is poor gameplay – but at least I know it’s my personal opinon.

You realize that you can CnD again as soon as you get out of stealth right?

You don’t have to backstab every time.

What I do in a fight is to CnD and I just sit there and watch how my target reacts to my stealth. Then I CnD them again right after stealth and see what they will do. If they burn their dodges trying to anticipate a Backstab then the 3rd CnD will surely be the end of them.

It’s all about patience and great timing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You realize that you can CnD again as soon as you get out of stealth right?
You don’t have to backstab every time.

What I do in a fight is to CnD and I just sit there and watch how my target reacts to my stealth. Then I CnD them again right after stealth and see what they will do. If they burn their dodges trying to anticipate a Backstab then the 3rd CnD will surely be the end of them.

It’s all about patience and great timing.

You read that I also talked about that very scenario, right?
You can do that against a few classes but against others you won’t have success with that. We were talking about thieves and I wouldn CnD chain against thieves. I do against mesmers.

Edit: And btw. If you planned to backstab someone and instead go for a CnD chain your backstab has been wasted. But it’s good that we all talk this lengthy about it – useful and stuff.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

Ok, so it’s 4 secs if traited.
We discussed the “wasted” lengthy – it can be wasted as the stealth can run out beforehand and the best option then is to go heartseeker, unless you have a smart but handicapped player and try to sneak up ehind him to do the next CnD to try another backstab in the hope the guy will run out of dodges and won’t try to defend himself. You won’t have time anough to land a perfect backstab against a target who knows what they’re doing. Also stealth doesn’t last indefinitely, especially not as a D/D thief.
Anyway: I started with 4 in SA and went 6 in SA and would be stupid to not do it as my build relies on might. You can call that poor gameplay all you want, it is poor gameplay to you. To me putting x conditions into steal is poor gameplay – but at least I know it’s my personal opinon.

You realize that you can CnD again as soon as you get out of stealth right?

You don’t have to backstab every time.

What I do in a fight is to CnD and I just sit there and watch how my target reacts to my stealth. Then I CnD them again right after stealth and see what they will do. If they burn their dodges trying to anticipate a Backstab then the 3rd CnD will surely be the end of them.

It’s all about patience and great timing.

Totally agree with this. A impatient thief is a dead thief.

On my mes, it often comes down to who gets greedy first (if i’m not just insta-downed with a really good burst… tricksy thieves). Thieves are well equipped to wait out their opponents for that perfect moment to strike. If the thief is impatient, that is usually enough time for me to counter and down them. Most good matches on my mesmer vs a thief are usually very quick either way they go down.

As an aside, now that I have my own lvl 80 Thief, I take back any previous hard feelings about thieves. It’s harder than it looks :P***

I wish i had seen this thread earlier. I started thieving a few months ago with the same interest in evade thieves and im very happy to say that it is very possible but you will have to break a few rules

I have a pvp rank of Dragon and these days i play mostly thief. If you want an evade thief, there a re a few things to keep in mind:

Firstly an evade thief is not a thief that only evades, if you try to build an only evade thief you will spend most of your time evading and not doing damage.

Secondly, the entire goal of an evade thief is to put yourself in positions where you can focus on doing damage, even if it is just for a second. It is not about just evading attacks because no matter how good you are, there are only so many attacks you can evade.

An evade thief needs stealth, the only thing is you won’t need it very often if you are very good. You will need it to backstab, to retreat and re evaluate the fight if it changes (like if another opponent showing) and you will need it to do a full retreat sometimes if you have taken too much damage and don’t want to risk chip damage.

An evade thief should be able to mantain composure. With all the particle effects and not having so much hp, it is very easy to get intimidated and start spamming dodges and not positioning yourself properly. Not timing evades is the easiest way to die.

Lastly and this is the most important, an evade thief must be able to predict the future, literally, you should be able to tell when a high damage attack is coming before it happens. You should be able to tell when someone else is about to attack you, not very easy to do especially when mesmer clones are around.

The evade thief is very viable, i don’t use refuge or any stealth utilities. On a number of occasions i have been successful against ganks because of the evades. Yesterday was the latest, managed a ranger and thief, shortly afterwards a mesmer, warrior and guardian.

Personally i don’t respect stealth heavy thieves, their whole tactic is really a glorified way of wasting time. The worst thing about these kind of thieves is they actually think using stealth and then creeping behind for backstab is skill.

If you still want to build one shoot me a PM. I don’t mind helping with the specifics like build and playstyle. We can do that in game. Its pretty exciting to find another evade enthusiast.

Should probably mention that using the meta doesnt work if you really dont want to depend on stealth.

At this point, I think I’ve learned the ropes. After testing most everything, I’ve decided that I have way more fun with P/P than any melee combo, so I’m sticking with that despite the weaknesses. I’m effective enough that I don’t feel guilty, but I do have a growing resentment q_q

you seem rather dedicated to P/P even though that weapon kit is the exact opposite of what you want out of the class, it’s kit has absolutely 0 mobility and 0 escapes. idk why your making a thread about it since you clearly already have your mind made up.

if you want a solid evade build though it won’t be with P/P so if you want my advice, make your pick, keep pistol as you main kit an have fun with 0 mobility. or use it as a secondary kit with S/D or something and at least be able to be somewhat mobile.

Runewolf.8456:

you seem rather dedicated to P/P even though that weapon kit is the exact opposite of what you want out of the class, it’s kit has absolutely 0 mobility and 0 escapes. idk why your making a thread about it since you clearly already have your mind made up.

if you want a solid evade build though it won’t be with P/P so if you want my advice, make your pick, keep pistol as you main kit an have fun with 0 mobility. or use it as a secondary kit with S/D or something and at least be able to be somewhat mobile.

Runewolf has a point, when you first posted this thread, you definitely mentioned you were most excited about the mobility, acrobatics and constant motion that the Thief profession has to offer. P/P is very fun, imo, but it just does not have the movement that the other weaponkits have! Maybe you were drawn into the profession by the mobility, but fell in love with the prospect of being a gung-ho bullet-thrower like me. ;3

I think we must play P/P very differently, or perhaps there’s a misunderstanding about what drew me to the class?

What excites me is the necessity of dodging to stay alive. With the 6 dodges I have with my set-up, I’m not missing out on that at all. If things get hairy, I have a SB secondary for creating distance or extra evades.

What I missed when I was playing melee was that high risk, all on the line gameplay. Those builds tended to be “do XYZ to remain safe at all times, then do ABC to punish enemies when appropriate.” Yes, I was very mobile, but things like Infiltrator’s Strike meant that I only died when I picked stupid fights. Thus, the fights became more of a ‘how well do I follow protocol this time’ and less of an exciting back and forth.

I’m not knocking those builds, just they aren’t what I was looking for.

Also, I’m thinking about trying out a SB condi evade build sometime in the future when I’m less poor, though that’s somewhat unrelated? Or has it been done and it didn’t turn out well?

P/P in small group fighting in WvW:

It can work!

^Yes!

Most of my game time is small group fighting in WvW or solo roaming on home BL. If I’m in a zerg fight for some reason, I use shortbow for the AoE and switch to pistols if I need to blast one guy in particular.

I too like the p/p set as a main. Maybe it just me but I found there so many ways to make a p/p build and each plays differently. You can go with venoms or the panic strikes. You can go with IP or a build maximizing the INI .

What I am currently going with is a 0/2/0/6/6 build focused on high boon durations. (80 percent boon so swiftness/fury/might/vigor more or less always up and regen has high uptime) I traited Pistol mastery and took a sigil of night/force on the pistol set wth an alternate pistol having air. 10(night) 10(PM) 5 (force) then the 10 percent when endurance not filled and anywhere up to 15 percent more damage from that lead attacks is coupled with Rage (5 more percent) runes and a 100 percent uptime on fury giving up to 55 percent more damage before crits kick in. If you roam the periphery of a battle and stay out of all those AOES you can lay a world of hurt on and it was not unusual for me to get 9+k unloads against glass .

I play several thieves now and will at times (depending on mood) go to the p/d condi build or a stealth based d/d but just have the most fun overall with p/p even if you end up dying more and yes if someone decides to focus you you can go down quickly. There not many outs besides your evades and number 5.

If you want to play where you don’t want to rely on stealth…..choosing thief doesn’t make much sense. There is the S/D build which is an evasive boon stripping build, but that’s it. Personally, I wouldn’t want to pick a class if I could only limit it to one meta build.

ll Wrath ll.5961:

If you want to play where you don’t want to rely on stealth…..choosing thief doesn’t make much sense. There is the S/D build which is an evasive boon stripping build, but that’s it. Personally, I wouldn’t want to pick a class if I could only limit it to one meta build.

If you go by that logic, the only professions you could choose from are thief and ranger, since they are the only professions to have two different builds played in the WTS.

S/P accrobatics or panic strike doesn’t rely on stealth and is viable everywhere except ESL tournaments. Give it a try.

Sviel.7493:

tl;dr – I’m pretty sure I’m not doing this right, but I want to try to understand what’s wrong about it so I can figure out if I should give up or explore new options. Preferably before I go through the trouble of making ascended gear.

Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

When I was choosing my first class, I read the stealth part and cringed a bit, then read the agile, acrobatic…hard to hit part and was hooked. I love the idea of surviving based on my ability to avoid enemy attacks, but I hate using stealth as it removes any meaningful interaction with the other player.

I tried every weapon set and settled on pistol/pistol, which I now gather to have been a poor choice, but nothing else seemed remotely viable without spamming stealth. Of course, pistol/pistol is apparently not viable under any (non-PvE) circumstances, so…

Thing is, the non-stealth utility skills seem really lackluster. The venoms don’t work well at all with pistols and many of the others are designed around melee. I’ve had the best luck with Signet of Agility and Assassin’s Signet, then Roll For Initiative or Smokescreen depending on the enemy. I usually roll Withdraw as a heal since it gives me an extra disengage and has a low CD. I tried Hide in Shadows, but the stealth it gave was pretty useless since the pistol sneak attack is laughable on a non-condi build and it didn’t help with giving me breathing room against melee enemies. Signet of Malice is a mainstay in PvE, but against players I just don’t land as many hits due to lower hp pools and more dodges. Also, the burst healing is a must.

That said, the passive stat boost from the signets doesn’t make them worthwhile, though Agility is great for the extra dodges alone. Assassin’s active is awful on pistols, though. It doesn’t even last for a Full unload, and since the per-hit damage is so low anyway, the overall boost is miniscule compared to how great it is with melee attacks.

I don’t think I need to get into how disjointed P/P skills are, but as an overview…P1 hits for less damage than the random Shortbow I picked up the other day and at a shorter range and with only one target. It has a little bleed on it but I don’t have the hp pool to rely on bleeds unless I can watch safely from stealth. When I played (briefly) around a year ago, it had a combo progression like other skills…except that it was bugged. It seemed like it was supposed to be more of a rapid fire sort of thing, which was nice…guess that was scrapped?

P2 has rare uses. It’d need to immobilize longer to be worthwhile in general, though.

P3 is great after baiting out dodges but…since it’s the only way to do any damage (see: P1 sucks), it’s hard to bait said dodges since nothing else is a threat.

P4 is wonderful in that it rewards me for reading enemies, but it does less damage than P1 (which sucks) and uses nearly half of my initiative. I interrupt one enemy action by giving up an action (P3) that was probably more important to me than whatever I interrupted.

P5 is nice in that it is the only P/P skill that gives me a Combo Field, but said field is almost totally useless. It very rarely is nice when I’m out of dodges and in melee range since P3 will put a few more blinds out when used within it, but it uses over half of my initiative and…well…face tanking a melee is less than ideal.

I’m guessing that everything has to be balanced for the D/P and P/D builds as well, so rather than getting a full skill-set, I’m working with the sloppy seconds of more traditional stealth spam thieves?

Then, in terms of build…I really liked acrobat traits, but one more dodge didn’t amount to much since my damage to initiative ratio plummeted. Full damage (6/6/0/0/2) seems most successful. On that note, any foray into survivability gets slapped in the face by the fact that I need to be able to resolve fights quickly since other classes are much stronger if they get a second round of cooldowns and other thieves won’t take much longer to kill me. Not that one can really dodge a stealthed enemy anyway, since it means they keep their stealth q_q

I can tell from these forums and other’s comments that P/P is seen as rather weak, but I’m not sure whether Anet is planning to do anything about it. Thus, I may have chosen a class where interacting with the enemy means I’ve made a huge mistake. Any tips? Or hope?