Guild Wars 2

As a warrior I love it

Do you feel it was deserved?

I still wish thieves had been hit harder… :|

Well not really, but I at least wish they hadn’t buffed caltrops… why on earth was that needed? People already hate thieves because if there’s even the slightest chance they’ll lose a fight they cripple/blind you until revealed wears off then stealth away. How did making their cripple better help with that?

Conncept.7638:

I still wish thieves had been hit harder… :|

Well not really, but I at least wish they hadn’t buffed caltrops… why on earth was that needed?

buffed? you mean nerfed

ContraBit.9174:

Conncept.7638:

I still wish thieves had been hit harder… :|

Well not really, but I at least wish they hadn’t buffed caltrops… why on earth was that needed?

buffed? you mean nerfed

Oh gosh you’re right! I completely read that line backwards, thought it had been increased to fifteen. Sorry, my bad.

Flamenco.3894:

Do you feel it was deserved?

Yes. And that’s coming from a player with a thief.

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves much more than PvP ones, and messes up the timing of thief rotations in a really weird way that makes the class feel much more awkward and unpolished. Anet does not think this stuff through at all and probably have about as great an understanding of the class as all of these people rejoicing over a nerf that won’t stop them from getting killed by thieves in pvp at all.

I find it absolutely baffling how anyone can say that THIS is somehow an “overdue” or a “deserved” change. Newsflash – it does NOTHING to fix how easily they can plonk you on your bum in PvP. This is an almost exclusive, unjustified and pointless PvE change, making rotations more awkward. That’s pretty much it.

What WOULD have been “deserved”? The original idea to introduce Revealed for the old duration whether you attack or not. God forbid that Arenanet make sense with a patch.

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…

This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.

I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.

ContraBit.9174:

buffed? you mean nerfed

You didn’t know? Thieves are so overpowered that even their nerfs are buffs!

MikeRocks.9243:

ContraBit.9174:

buffed? you mean nerfed

You didn’t know? Thieves are so overpowered that even their nerfs are buffs!

“What doesn’t buff you, makes you stronger.”

darkace.8925:

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…

This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.

I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.

You know that’s actually a really insightful statement (no sarcasm or trolling here I’m being genuine). It’s a good way to stay positive about it.

I think the main reason I’m a little annoyed by it (I’m not saying anything like the class is broken, I just think it adversely affected PvE thieves a little too much) is because Warriors do so much more DPS, bring heals/boons with shouts, and can severely buff a team with banners — If you want DPS, there is literally no reason to take anyone other than a Warrior.

I’m not gonna let this make me change classes or anything like this, I still love the class and look forward to adapting — I just think there’s a little inequity around class balance for PvE.

Mixchimmer.7230:

I’m not gonna let this make me change classes or anything like this, I still love the class and look forward to adapting — I just think there’s a little inequity around class balance for PvE.

Glad to hear at least one person is willing wait a bit before scrambling for the nearest escape pod.

darkace.8925:

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…

This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.

I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.

The issue is that the changes are not about specific gimmicks, there global blanket nerfs that don’t actually address the perceived issues, instead they damage a variety of builds that were not an issue.

Eventually nerfs like these are going to stack up and damage any builds, gimmick or not. Heck the caltrop duration nerf came out of no where and effects builds I’ve never heard a complaint about..

The changes are not the death of the thief that some people claim, but they are something that causes worries with how they are implemented with very little thought on all the knock on effects they will have and gradually chip away at the entire game not just thieves.

Flamenco.3894:

As a warrior I love it

Do you feel it was deserved?

Yep, but they need more.

Dasorine.1964:

The changes are not the death of the thief that some people claim, but they are something that causes worries with how they are implemented with very little thought on all the knock on effects they will have and gradually chip away at the entire game not just thieves.

The thing is, though, that these decisions aren’t being made with “very little thought”. If they are, then the game is doomed either way. We, the community, have had less than 12 hours to see how these effects will actually play out. Yet we’re telling the guys who know the game inside and out, who have been discussing and testing these changes for a while now (I hope) that we know better than them. Again, if we do, the game is doomed.

If you read any (well…most) of the profession sub-forums, every profession in the game is now unplayable. And it’s like this after every patch. Every time a class gets nerfed (for balancing reasons) it’s the end of the world and that class should just be removed from the game. Every time another class gets buffed (again, for balancing reasons) it’s because the developers favor that class and don’t care about any of the others.

To me, it’s all just a bunch of short-sighted hysteria over something that may or may not even be a problem. I think everyone, not just thief players, needs to take a deep breath and see how these changes are actually going to impact the game. Overreacting to “on paper” patch notes doesn’t serve anyone well.

I personally trust that the developers know what they’re doing. I wouldn’t play the game if I didn’t. God knows they’re slow in addressing issues (bugged traits that have been that way since launch), but I do trust they can balance the game without breaking classes. But I realize that “balance” means “nerf” as often as it means “buff”. I also realize that they’re not always going to get it right the first time. But I trust they’ll evaluate the way things play out and make the necessary adjustments as we move forward.

The game is only seven months old, and balancing classes (fine-tuning) takes time.

PS – I’ve run Caltrops from the moment I unlocked them, and I’ve always felt the skill was too good for the CD. I’m primarily a PvE’er, but I don’t see them being any less effective in PvP or WvW; but someone will no doubt correct me if I’m wrong.

However the amount of issues that crop up with proposed/enacted changes makes myself and perhaps others really question the thought behind them.

When they make a change that makes certain traits no longer work correctly or become a hindrance or loose all potency, when they make a change that cripples already borderline builds/weapon sets and when the change doesn’t actually address the perceived issues. This is what makes me question the thought put into these blanket changes.

I personally get effected by most changes but no singular change cripples me, they do however overall lower my own options and strengths in game. Im sure I will still be able to do everything I did do (not being a major stealth user and caltrops wills till work well enough for me) just at a lower level before while other classes that where already ahead get further ahead.

darkace.8925:

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…

This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.

I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.

Can you please explain to me how “being a D/D thief” is a gimmick? You can call any build ever a gimmick by your criteria. You’re basing your build around something? Oh man, clearly a gimmick. Instead you should just throw your traits around at random into things that don’t synergize in the slightest! I should have known all along.

Really, what are you suggesting here? To deliberately come up with awful builds, because bad builds probably won’t get nerfed? Except they often do get hit with collateral damage anyways, so even that doesn’t work.

darkace.8925:

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…

This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.

I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.

What else should you do with a D/D Thief, spam Heartseeker? The set has a distinct lack of options built in on a fundamental level.

What else should you do with a D/D Thief, spam Heartseeker? The set has a distinct lack of options built in on a fundamental level.

Personally I like death blossom. Great way to evade and deal damage.

The stealth nerf did more than just a second longer not in stealth you know. The whole Shadow Arts trait line is sub-optimal now. They should have just gone with revealed regardless of attacking or not.

Grimwolf.7163:

darkace.8925:

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…

This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.

I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.

What else should you do with a D/D Thief, spam Heartseeker? The set has a distinct lack of options built in on a fundamental level.

But you can spam CnD and waste 6 ini each time! But they also nerfed the damage on that a long time ago.

But you can spam Dancing Dagger and waste 4 ini each for… well you’d be better off using your auto attack…

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

these changes in the last update (uhum reveal i’m looking your way) hurt my PvP and also PvE (still a little but not a lot) so badly. I am completely of my game. I hate that reveal it makes no sense it takes away what is most important about the thief the freging stealth!

now there is completely no reason to roll a thief for DPS the warrior always does it better. They even bring more support besides the higher DPS

Kneru.8014:

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

This post alone illustrates the kind of short-sightedness I’m talking about. You completely discount D/D because you’re CnD Backstab combo isn’t as effective as it used to be. And you completely discount the possibility that D/D can be used for anything other than CnD/Backstab.

My D/D evasion build is proof positive that there are more uses to D/D than just CnD/Backstab. And even if it weren’t, CnD still works. It’s not as effective as it used to be (i.e. it’s not as overpowered), but it still works. You’re striking me as the kind of guy who wants it all without having to work for it.

darkace.8925:

Kneru.8014:

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

This post alone illustrates the kind of short-sightedness I’m talking about. You completely discount D/D because you’re CnD Backstab combo isn’t as effective as it used to be. And you completely discount the possibility that D/D can be used for anything other than CnD/Backstab.

My D/D evasion build is proof positive that there are more uses to D/D than just CnD/Backstab. And even if it weren’t, CnD still works. It’s not as effective as it used to be (i.e. it’s not as overpowered), but it still works. You’re striking me as the kind of guy who wants it all without having to work for it.

Great, so your particular gimmick didn’t get nerfed. What happens when it does? Acting like you’re working hard because you run a subpar build is also really quite the joke.

Vargs.6234:

darkace.8925:

Kneru.8014:

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

This post alone illustrates the kind of short-sightedness I’m talking about. You completely discount D/D because you’re CnD Backstab combo isn’t as effective as it used to be. And you completely discount the possibility that D/D can be used for anything other than CnD/Backstab.

My D/D evasion build is proof positive that there are more uses to D/D than just CnD/Backstab. And even if it weren’t, CnD still works. It’s not as effective as it used to be (i.e. it’s not as overpowered), but it still works. You’re striking me as the kind of guy who wants it all without having to work for it.

Great, so your particular gimmick didn’t get nerfed. What happens when it does? Acting like you’re working hard because you run a subpar build is also really quite the joke.

Suppose they do nerf my build. Suppose they nerf Death Blossom, Feline Grace, Fluid Strikes, Power of Inertia, Vigorous Recovery, Uncatchable, and Bountiful Thief. If I find the build still works, just not as well, I’ll continue to run it because I consider it a fun build. If it doesn’t work at all (this is not the case with CnD), then I’ll adapt. Simple. As. That.

But the fact that you consider the evasion thief a “subpar” build says to me that you don’t really understand much about this game. I’m guessing the only reason you even play thief at all is because you heard secondhand that they were one of the best WvW classes in the game, huh?

darkace.8925:

Kneru.8014:

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

This post alone illustrates the kind of short-sightedness I’m talking about. You completely discount D/D because you’re CnD Backstab combo isn’t as effective as it used to be. And you completely discount the possibility that D/D can be used for anything other than CnD/Backstab.

My D/D evasion build is proof positive that there are more uses to D/D than just CnD/Backstab. And even if it weren’t, CnD still works. It’s not as effective as it used to be (i.e. it’s not as overpowered), but it still works. You’re striking me as the kind of guy who wants it all without having to work for it.

How is your DB spamming a more valid and less gimmick playstyle than CnD > Backstab spam? You use even fewer attacks and with significantly less effort.

darkace.8925:

Vargs.6234:

darkace.8925:

Kneru.8014:

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

This post alone illustrates the kind of short-sightedness I’m talking about. You completely discount D/D because you’re CnD Backstab combo isn’t as effective as it used to be. And you completely discount the possibility that D/D can be used for anything other than CnD/Backstab.

My D/D evasion build is proof positive that there are more uses to D/D than just CnD/Backstab. And even if it weren’t, CnD still works. It’s not as effective as it used to be (i.e. it’s not as overpowered), but it still works. You’re striking me as the kind of guy who wants it all without having to work for it.

Great, so your particular gimmick didn’t get nerfed. What happens when it does? Acting like you’re working hard because you run a subpar build is also really quite the joke.

Suppose they do nerf my build. Suppose they nerf Death Blossom, Feline Grace, Fluid Strikes, Power of Inertia, Vigorous Recovery, Uncatchable, and Bountiful Thief. If I find the build still works, just not as well, I’ll continue to run it because I consider it a fun build. If it doesn’t work at all (this is not the case with CnD), then I’ll adapt. Simple. As. That.

But the fact that you consider the evasion thief a “subpar” build says to me that you don’t really understand much about this game. I’m guessing the only reason you even play thief at all is because you heard secondhand that they were one of the best WvW classes in the game, huh?

I chose thief before beta was even announced and never pvp, but thanks for your strawman assumptions I guess?

darkace.8925:

Kneru.8014:

But you can use Death Bloss…. that’s a condi skill.

So yeah, I concur, if you’re not lining up for a backstab, it’s pretty much HS or #1 spam. >.>

This post alone illustrates the kind of short-sightedness I’m talking about. You completely discount D/D because you’re CnD Backstab combo isn’t as effective as it used to be. And you completely discount the possibility that D/D can be used for anything other than CnD/Backstab.

My D/D evasion build is proof positive that there are more uses to D/D than just CnD/Backstab. And even if it weren’t, CnD still works. It’s not as effective as it used to be (i.e. it’s not as overpowered), but it still works. You’re striking me as the kind of guy who wants it all without having to work for it.

Whoa, stop. In that post specifically, did I mention anything about the revealed debuff being increased by 1 whole second? No. I can simply adapt to that. I’ve always run my builds (even Backstab), with Feline’s Grace. I have an extra dodge. I can do fine for one more second.

The post I made was more about how we have a condi skill dead center of a DD set. Thus, limiting our options. Nothing more. However, for someone who’s claims to be a thief, you certainly seem hold a lot of hatred for other thief players…

Also, as Grimwolf pointed out, your DB, Disabling Shot, Dodge (evasion skills) spam build, IMO, is more gimmicky than a BS build. Especially the ones who wait for stealth to wear off so they can spam DB some more, and pop right back into stealth.

That kitten’s just freaking annoying. And unless you have precise timing when they land on DB to immobilize/stun, they’re just gonna continue evading everything you throw at them…

I’m assuming you probably think when someone talks about BS, we’re all running 30/30/0/0/10 cookie cutter, but we’re not. The first build I made myself when I started BS was more sustained and dodging. So, running a different build isnt something that special, where you seem to think you can just talk down to other thief player’s because you run something different.

If you’ve played an MMO before, you know the cycle. Nerfs, buffs, ups, downs. But the main question here is: “If they start nerfing stealth, and our ability to get into stealth due to whiners now… Where will they draw the line?”

I’ve seen classes like Operatives in SWTOR nerfed repeatedly, until they were almost unviable. Sure you could kill someone, but if you’re good with that class, then you could do even better with something else. I myself dont want to see the Thief profession nerfed into oblivion.

Auesis.7301:

I find it absolutely baffling how anyone can say that THIS is somehow an “overdue” or a “deserved” change. Newsflash – it does NOTHING to fix how easily they can plonk you on your bum in PvP. This is an almost exclusive, unjustified and pointless PvE change, making rotations more awkward. That’s pretty much it.

What WOULD have been “deserved”? The original idea to introduce Revealed for the old duration whether you attack or not. God forbid that Arenanet make sense with a patch.

I haven’t jumped on my thief in a while so not too sure on the pve affects but yes thiefs will still troll and still dominate as they can still maintain a high level of stealth. Original idea was way better.

The good thieves will keep going…and going…and going… They won’t even break a sweat.

Good luck.

After ~5 hours of WvW today I’m confident in saying the nerf had little effect on the power of a thief there. You simply do not re-stealth that often due to initiative concerns and you do not get to stick to a target long enough to get anything approaching an ideal rotation. You burst just as hard as ever, and the biggest thing I missed was quickness stomps.

In PvE, the nerf translates into roughly a 15% DPS decrease for the Thief; it is now significantly worse than a Warrior in dungeons.

Ensign.2189:

After ~5 hours of WvW today I’m confident in saying the nerf had little effect on the power of a thief there. You simply do not re-stealth that often due to initiative concerns and you do not get to stick to a target long enough to get anything approaching an ideal rotation. You burst just as hard as ever, and the biggest thing I missed was quickness stomps.

In PvE, the nerf translates into roughly a 15% DPS decrease for the Thief; it is now significantly worse than a Warrior in dungeons.

This is petty much exactly how I feel about it.

I don’t mind the caltrops nerf but seriously why give it a AOE circle now like it’s a trap cause it’s too obvious now, you’re almost ruining condition builds but lucky enough I’ve been creative with my build.

We can still perma stealth to get away or heal ourself up to full hp in stealth. they should have given us 3 seconds of revealed after leaving stealth, even if not attacking, than destroying several builds.

Geiir.7603:

We can still perma stealth to get away or heal ourself up to full hp in stealth. they should have given us 3 seconds of revealed after leaving stealth, even if not attacking, than destroying several builds.

Agreed. :/

Flamenco.3894:

As a warrior I love it

Do you feel it was deserved?

Kinda wish mug was also nerfed. +1 sec revealed doesn’t change much for me except for the fact that I can’t be lazy and auto-attack camp supervisors to death by daze-locking them.

I still eat warriors and guardians for breakfast.

Geiir.7603:

We can still perma stealth to get away or heal ourself up to full hp in stealth. they should have given us 3 seconds of revealed after leaving stealth, even if not attacking, than destroying several builds.

What build did this patch destroyed?

Vargs.6234:

It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves much more than PvP ones, and messes up the timing of thief rotations in a really weird way that makes the class feel much more awkward and unpolished. Anet does not think this stuff through at all and probably have about as great an understanding of the class as all of these people rejoicing over a nerf that won’t stop them from getting killed by thieves in pvp at all.

I disagree in that ANet time and again has shown that a great deal of thought does go into their changes. I do agree though that PvE thieves probably took the bigger hit when it comes to the caltrops nerf.

Sifu.6527:

Geiir.7603:

We can still perma stealth to get away or heal ourself up to full hp in stealth. they should have given us 3 seconds of revealed after leaving stealth, even if not attacking, than destroying several builds.

What build did this patch destroyed?

I think he means he has to think now rather than google a glass cannon build.

Mandra Madador.1709:

The good thieves will keep going…and going…and going… They won’t even break a sweat.

Good luck.

Spoken like a true thief! +1

I was running this before the nerf to stealth.
http://tinyurl.com/cvyuhtv

(edited because GW forums garbled the link) … one more time with feeling

It should still be viable too, just adding a death blossom or dodge at the end of the attack chain before going in for another round of CnD /Backstab… except that Hidden Killer is completely broken now. This build relied on that for the critical strike damage coming off the backstab while stealthed to provide the damage it needed to down a target. I’m trying other builds now. If they just fix Hidden Killer (and I mean hot fix, not wait till the april update to fix it) then i’ll go back to this build. Otherwise I hope they’ll compensate the loss of defensive capability in the revealed debuff change.

I’ll try to find a new build but I had a lot of money tied up in the gear that went with my old build.