Guild Wars 2

The reason the thief class gets nerfed is most of our skills punish players for not paying attention and not playing there class to its fullest potential.

Thieves don’t have good DPS. (This isn’t burst damage, thieves have the best burst damage, but in dungeons our DPS is mediocre, even less then a necromancers if you could parse it, because after the burst, we cannot really do anything, whilst other classes can switch out weapons and keep burning there CDs.)

Thieves have very little utility besides an aoe stealth on a long CD. (Great, every minute and half I can stealth everyone!)

Thieves cannot really buff the group, unlike every other class. (AOE Venoms? lol, they don’t stack and are all gone in one auto attack, and its limited to only five players.)

Thieves only have two viable weapon sets. (D/D, Short-bow, the other sets are all “ok” but mostly mediocre compared to D/D, Short-bow.)

Thieves have SEVERAL under-powered traits, but also very good ones. (almost 75% of our traits are worthless, or were nerfed to the ground in beta, pretty much every thief you see is the same, there almost is not any difference.)

Thieves are the worst PVE Class. (We don’t bring anything good to the table, we can’t help the group, we have poor survivability, and we don’t do much DPS over a long stretch of time, our blinds are worthless against bosses, where you actually need them.) [Honestly, have you ever seen us in PVE? we have to kill something…then WAIT for our skills and initiative to come back up… then do it again, every other class can just go to the next mob, in big events we feel punished for this.]

Did you notice mostly all thieves are the same? whilst almost every other class has something special to do, all thieves mostly are the same.

Why? We have nothing else going for us, pistols are not viable, P/D,D/P are troll weapons at best, and sword dps was nerfed to the ground.

We have: Burst Damage and Stealth, that is it.

Sounds like we’re not even playing the same game. I really digging PVE with my thief, more than any other class, and I mostly use P/D. In fact I can’t even decide on a secondary weapon set to use because everything else is kind of boring or feels riskier to me.

This is simply not looking further than your nose.

I will agree that a few weapon skill abilities most notably body shot on pistol and flanking strike ws3 on sword daggers need addressing to enhance those sets. but we have excellent elite skills, steal is brilliant and can be as much as a free kill. we have a lot of viable traits and some good group utility in group stealths and heals. we have the best blast finisher in the game that can provide group healing. thrill of the crime is also a really nice group buff.

I notice you are posting largely from a pve perspective, I don’t have a huge ammount of dungeon experience but from that experience I can vouch that we bring constant high safe dps using a shortbow build. and again the blast finisher is very potent in a lot of situations.

Thieves bring:

Permanent Weakness – One of the stronger conditions in the game
Group Stealth – Life saver for getting fallen party members up
Permanent Vunerability – Better then might
Daze – Best on demand Daze in the game
High Burst damage – I can Backstab every 3 sec … non stop (in the right build)
The Best smoke and dark fields for combos
Some of the best cripples and bleeds in the game

yea we don’t buff our group a lot… but we can debuff the enemy quite a bit.

Forgot Perma-Blindness too

Mostly all Boss mobs are immune to all of that.

Try Backstabbing a boss. (please…)

Group Stealth is on a long cool-down, and on a boss fight, your probably the one going down first.

Warriors have much better Vulnerability, ours is a joke compared to theirs.

Well I do a lot of dungeons, I already got my full HotW set and CoE set not to mention a good amount of runs from other dungeons just to help my guildmates.

So far Thieves simply never bring anything to the table. I’m not saying they can’t I am saying players don’t do it. There’s a few example of good support although most of them are useless against bosses, but with Steal traited they can be an exceptional party buffer with a lot of vigor for example. Also, thieves excel at control.

However, dungeons are dumb and easy, support is NOT required, just like control. Every single time I went in a party with full dps it went way better than any other party simply because of the speed of the run, a major aspect when farming 1450 tokens, 25 runs. Dungeons being so kitten support in dungeons is a nuisance not an asset and with this in mind thieves are still very good in dungeons.

For PVP:

Permanent Weakness – If they use Short bow or Dagger. (like explained above…)

Group Stealth – Shadow Refuge, long cool down, every other class has perma group utility.

Permanent Vunerability – Other Classes can do this too, AND get huge damage (Axe/Mace Warrior one example…) , Thieves cannot do ANY damage when they stack vulnerability on the target, might as well just attack.

Daze – Best on demand Daze in the game. (And do no damage… , Necromancers and Mesmers get much better Daze, THERE Dazes HURT.)

High Burst damage – I can Backstab every 3 sec … non stop (in the right build… Yeah, you can’t do anything else except backstab, try doing another spec and see how that works, and this is useless if your fighting a compitent enemy.)

The Best smoke and dark fields for combos. (Necromancer wells would like a word with you…)

Some of the best cripples and bleeds in the game. (Ranger would like a word with you…)

My build is very customized to my play style

15/15/10/15/15

The point of my build is to give me access to what i want to do.. when I want to do it.

15 in DA give me weakness on poison… with dagger mainhand.. that is every 3rd attack in addition to increasing poison by 33%
15 in CS gives me 20% chance per dagger swing for 1 int gain.. the dagger chain is fast.
10 in SA give me 2 int back on every stealth … which I do a lot of
15 in Acro give me cheaper dodges plus might and swiftness
15 in Trick gives me Stealing give 3 int back, and give my group Fury,Might, and Swiftness

My attack rotation is simple…

CnD, Backstab, Auto till Stealth debuff gone, CnD, Backstab…Heartseeker when mob is low…. Deathblossom for AE… Steal when needed int

Utilities: I rotate a long depending on the situation but mainly use

Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen, SoS
Daggerstorm or Thieves Guild

If someone else (Guard or Necro ) is doing condition removal I can run with the Heal Signet.. otherwise it is Hide in Shadows 90% of the time.

So basicly your just annoying your opponent to death, which is nice and all, but if your opponent uses pets or turrets, you lose if they can follow you around.

Someone said thieves are bad at bosses.I dissagree.Exept maybe Lupicus because you can’t Melee that thing until 50% but no one can survive better against it ,permanent evasion ftw.We pulled a lot of runs because I was able to survive until the others revived and came back.When we start on something I always go first as a thief because no matter what they trow at me I can always negate those atacks.So thats some of other things what I bring to my team as a thief.And the runs go significantly faster because I am able to skipp trash and pull the next Way Point whitout any danger to my team.Like the Golem part in Arah p2 or any skippable trash after Lupicus which are realy hard to outrun for most.Or just stealth them though it any time.

I’m with you Daecollo ! Thiefs been nerfed too many times to play it ( 3 times in beta , 1 in stress test and almoust every week from the game start ) ! In PvE and Dungeon runs they are useless , the ones that dont agree should wear glasses because your team mates made your dungeons , your DPS is too low ! Talkin about short bow 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 traint build , that means your burst won’t even reach 5-6k damage output , permanent initiative (LOL) you’re not using any weap combos mate !
Compared to a warrior that from level 20 has 100% crit rate + all traints usefull thief is garbage ! And the ones that “survive” dungeon so well , you should loose 3 stealth skill build) + traint ones ! At the moment thief is good for the skip parts of dungeons , thats all !
And i want to see all the D/D freaks farm in Cursed ! You will get close to 0 drop G.G bye bye !
I’ve made myself a warrior , lvl 20 100% crit rate + usefull traints ( not like thief one that i barely can find 4 good traints to be 100% must ) , bye thief class !
And all that say that you own all classes in PvP and other things , you should go more in tournaments , playn vs new players pretty easy , non stop backstab like 1 said above) !

While I agree that our sustainable DPS isn’t that great because of the freakin nerfs , Condition based builds have decent sustainable damage and maximum survivability.

Yes mate but you can’t farm with conditions , mobs in cursed events last for 1-2 seconds , you won’t see any ticks of the conditions !

If you wanna do activities such as those that way you can go full dps since you don’t need anything else and you wont have any problems since you don’t farm alone those events.So whit shortbow you’ll be better farmer than a warrior whit whirling axe any time.

Why do people bring PVP… The OP was talking about PVE

Would I use my 15/15/10/15/15 build in PVP…. No of course not.. but in PVE and Dungeons when you need to change on the fly… Yes

Not true nighty , if you go mf gear you will hit 2k max on critical(cluster bomb) with full dps traints and those 2k won’t give you drop coz a same build warrior can reach up to 15k damage by the time your 2k cluster bomb will land ! So shortbow is out of the question !
Sword/Pistol is nerfed too bad , you can try to aoe the mobs get a good 5-6k dmg with mf gear , full dps build but you will get agro of all those mobs and they will 2 hit you to the ground ! The other weapons are not good to farm with , i’ve tried them all !
And yes I’m talking about PvE , coz PvP was the first thing that nerfed the thief so much and now PvE or let’s say farm after 80 ( for exo , legendary , mf set etc. ) its not good at all , mix build ( No drop ) Dps build ( death) and full def build (1g farm in 10 hours non stop )

I have to agree with the poster, Thieves are at severe disadvantages when it comes to PvE. We cannot be reliably survivable without specific builds. Our only real way of surviving is to kill mobs faster than they can hit us, which doesn’t work in dungeons against mobs with hugely inflated health. And yes, thieves can’t really do much damage after using a few skills. Anet needs to start balancing PvE and PvP separately.

FWB for president with the last part of PvE and PvP separately !!!

*I dunno…
I’ve got 4000+ Power (when I’m buffed and not starting from scratch) on my Thief when I use +Might duration runes, even while I’m wearing only Power/Vitality/Toughness armor.

*I think that’s pretty good considering I have 100% chance to Critical Strike when stealthed (which is every 4 seconds or something, right?)…

*Plus the traits that allow me to get Might + Swiftness when I dodge are really cool.

When I’m grouped with 4 other players, I can easily get 25 stacks of Might on my character if I’m dodging on time, and using *(that one signet that gives +movement speed and blinds nearby foes when activated; I can’t remember the name as I’m on my Elementalist right now) which gives an instant 5 stacks of Might. Throw in a weapon Sigil that gives Might on critical strikes and lv80 food that gives might on critical strikes, too. Also, take a few minutes before you go out and look for a fight, to kill non-aggressive monsters to work on one of the Sigils in your weapons that gives you +power per kill.

It’s a great class. I am VERY pleased with how my Thief plays. My only suggestion is to NOT go for the Glass Cannon type of equipment. Having 11,000 HP as a Glass Cannon V.S. having 18-22k HP in Vit/Tough equipment; Vit/Tough builds will live through sticky situations and ambushes in WvWvW way more often than. This stays true in every PvE situation, ever.

I can still crit my way through more than 1/2 of a decked out Warrior or Guardian if I catch them while their guard is down…. But why would I come at a player that is buffed to the chin and ready to kill? I won’t. I’m not a tank. I am a stealthy melee damage dealer. There is no player that will see me coming towards them EVERYTIME.

Anyway, this is my advice. Heed my advice or not, it’s up to you. There are Condition Damage (CD) thieves that I know almost nothing about how to play. Maybe you can ask around for what a good CD build is and ask for playstyle tips. You might find it to be even better.

TL;DR: I’ve described how to wear Vit/Tough gear, still get 4000+ Power, have almost 24/7 swiftness, and 100% crit every 4 seconds. Just look at your traits, guys. There are multiple play styles for Thieves if you think outside the box.

Mate its about PvE you got wrong thread ! We talk about farming , that means MF gear , MF runes , DPS with those to get a drop w/o getting killed … you can’t farm events with condition dmg or you are leeching your party ( that could explain it ) !

dani.1956:

Mate its about PvE you got wrong thread ! We talk about farming , that means MF gear , MF runes , DPS with those to get a drop w/o getting killed … you can’t farm events with condition dmg or you are leeching your party ( that could explain it ) !

Since when is PvE only Magic Find gear? I’ve completely summed up WvW and PvE all in one…

If you are going to PvE in only Magic Find Gear because you’re poor, that’s your problem, not the Game’s. Go buy some all damage gear for a glass cannon that dies easily, or got vit/tough for a tanky damage dealer that can actually kill and live to tell about it.

My gear worth over 300 gold mate and i make around 40g/day , you didn’t found the right person to call poor hahaha !

First…. For being a thief and doing all dongeon…

This OP is out of is mind! I can fight melee with a build 0 /30/25/0/15 easy! Yes I use d/d amd shortbow…. But you forget top say one thing…

The shortbow in the hand of a thief is the best weapon in the entire game. I have play all class, then level them to at least 35 and I have to say… Thief is the best class.

About the fact that you can’t backstabb a boss… Bulkitten I do it all the time and I can melee most of the boss when I’m at 100%. Also when a monster become weak or at least less then 50% hp… The thief will do way more damage then any class… So dont say we are useless, cause I have do all dongeon…. All of them as a thief and I die less then warrior or Guardian…. Cause I can dodge and move, stealth and rez my team back when I want.

the ppl cry for more thief nerf, Anet, what are you going to do about it ???

dani.1956:

My gear worth over 300 gold mate and i make around 40g/day , you didn’t found the right person to call poor hahaha !

If you’re so rich than invest that money into gear that isn’t focused on Healing strength and Condition Damage or something, Mr. Gates.

OP says nothing about farming and MF gear. He’s talking about thieves being poor DPS and little utility. How do you help your teammates with Magic Find, bro?

Cool, meanwhile the warrior’s banners are doing AOE healing/buffing your stats and curing all your conditions with warhorn and stacking up 25 vulnerability on the target and doing good damage.

Elementalists are AOE healing twice and giving you swiftness, and just surviving and doing good damage, while also providing protection.

Rangers are giving you all critical chance/swiftness/vigor and doing good damage.

Necromancers are throwing down wells to make everyone do more damage and healing them, they are also healing everyone and doing decent damage, probably even tanking the name and debuffing it with blind, chill, and weakness.

Engineers are throwing down condition cures and group heal stims and area regeneration and protection while doing really good damage.

Guardians are throwing down condition curing, group stability, aoe fire, aoe healing and protection and regeneration while doing decent damage.

Your doing 20% more damage under 50% HP, grats.

Looks like your group is pulling you, because there is no way your surviving melee without some kind of group buff helping you.

scabies.3246:

dani.1956:

My gear worth over 300 gold mate and i make around 40g/day , you didn’t found the right person to call poor hahaha !

If you’re so rich than invest that money into gear that isn’t focused on Healing strength and Condition Damage or something, Mr. Gates.

OP says nothing about farming and MF gear. He’s talking about thieves being poor DPS and little utility. How do you help your teammates with Magic Find, bro?

Abandoning this topic , ppl can’t read ! bye

DanH.5879:

the ppl cry for more thief nerf, Anet, what are you going to do about it ???

Haha can’t help to respond this tho hahaha : I’m waiting for the next week thief nerf its like a fortune cookie , you will never know whats going to be !

I never had troubles farming so I don’t know what you’re reffering to.

Daecollo.9578:

Cool, meanwhile the warrior’s banners are doing AOE healing/buffing your stats and curing all your conditions with warhorn and stacking up 25 vulnerability on the target and doing good damage.

Elementalists are AOE healing twice and giving you swiftness, and just surviving and doing good damage, while also providing protection.

Rangers are giving you all critical chance/swiftness/vigor and doing good damage.

Necromancers are throwing down wells to make everyone do more damage and healing them, they are also healing everyone and doing decent damage, probably even tanking the name and debuffing it with blind, chill, and weakness.

Engineers are throwing down condition cures and group heal stims and area regeneration and protection while doing really good damage.

Guardians are throwing down condition curing, group stability, aoe fire, aoe healing and protection and regeneration while doing decent damage.

Your doing 20% more damage under 50% HP, grats.

Looks like your group is pulling you, because there is no way your surviving melee without some kind of group buff helping you.

A group buff from Thieves would be cool I can spare a utility slot for a group buff.

I think I understand what you mean. When I had focus on Venom traits, I liked how Venom boons could transfer to my party members as well as my thieves. It felt like I could actually contribute to the group like that. It doesn’t really feel like it is enough to me though.

Well shadow refuge does nice heal , stealths for a big perioud .Its a combo field and can be aoe blind.So theres protection and heal.For damage theres Choking Gass poison combo field but ye we could use more of those.

Shadow Refuse has a HUGE cooldown, almost longer then 1 banner from a warrior.
…..
Its nice for short fights, but for long fights its just .. not even worth it.

The problem isn’t the Thief, the problem is the players. I play a Thief. I play a Ranger. I play a Warrior. In fact, I play one of each class. Some are more fun than others. Some have strengths in one aspect, and weaknesses in another. See there is the facet of the game that’s enjoyable, the fact that each class is different. They’re supposed to be different. They do different things, that’s the whole point. Players seem to think that if you’re an MMO, you should be like World of Warcraft, where every class is now in the same boat. They all do damage in their damage specs, they all tank in their tank specs, and heal in their heal specs. You know, I think even the gd Mages can heal at this point. Are the classes still somewhat effective in a certain role? Sure, I suppose so. But do any of them stand out in any aspect very much from each other? No not really. Tanks tank, damage dealers do damage, and healers all heal, and they’re ALL the same now. A Paladin can now out damage a Rogue, and Warriors were the top damage class on 90% of the fights in Cata.

The only thing yelling and whining will do is make every class more and more the same and less and less interesting. Players cause this and they always start with the stealth classes. You can look at any MMO since World of Warcraft that had a stealth class that was great in Beta, and slowly became useless once it was released. Witch Elves in Warhammer, Rogues in Rift, Assassins in Aion, Operatives / Scoundrels in Star Wars, and now, Thieves in Guild Wars 2. Every single time these classes got picked on by the whinny players, they got the nerf bat, and people left. The ones that held on got bored and tired over time, and they left. Then players started getting bored not having squishy weak kitten stealth classes to kill and they got bored and left. Then the game died. It’s like a neverending MMO plague that has been eating away at every MMO, even World of Warcraft until the gamers get their way, the real players leave and the game dies.

You know the biggest problem with the stealth classes, and lets talk Thief here specfically. It’s a skill based class. The glass cannon Thief is the easiest to kill and requires the most skill of any class in the game. One CC, one small mistake, one cooldown blown at the wrong time and you’re dead. And because this class takes more skill to use correctly than the average keyboard turning couch mummy, they won’t use the class but will do everything they can to get it nerfed down to a point where even a blind bird dog could beat them. They also won’t take the time to ask somebody who may be a Thief, like a friend, a random whisper to a Thief in game to ask for tips, to maybe meet them in a sPvP game and practice fighting them. They won’t LEARN to deal with the class and would rather come straight here, whine, cry, moan and scream how OP the class is, when in reality, every class can be OP if you see them with such clouded minds.

Cluster Bomb is easily the best utility skill in the game, spammable blast finisher is sooo good. It also makes farming in Orr a joke as a single bomb is enough to tag a mob.
Did I mention spammable blast finisher?
Shadow Refuge is really good (why do you think it has such a high CD?) and makes rezzing people really easy (unless they die all the time, which means you just have to stop being bad)
Scorpion Wire is a great utility when you can split up hard groups (TA explo)
Basilisk Venom ignores boss-immunities (or at least the ones I tested it against, AC explo – I don’t like venom-share so I haven’t tested it that much)
Pistol offhand has a spammable smoke combofield that makes hard trashpacks ridiculously easy (gravelings in AC).

I play D/P + SB with 25/30/0/15/0 in explos and D/D + SB in Orr. I neither have problems staying alive in melee (besides some hard hitting explo bosses, like HotW way 1 endboss, where I have the same problem with my warrior), nor do I think my utility is lacking (seriously, spammable blast finisher).
I also think SB is superior to everything the warrior has to offer in terms of Orr-farming.

Cluster Bomb is Slow, the slowest AOE in the game…
Shadow Refuge is on a LOOONG cooldown…
Scorpion Wire Is ignored by bosses.
Basilisk Venom lasts 1 second.
Pistol offhand spammable smokecloud is cool, until you play a 80 warrior and realize 100b kills them, who cares about a stupid smokecloud if they are all dead?

I play an 80 warrior, thief, my first toon was a thief, and then I realized how useless they were in pve and rerolled to warrior.

Yes ! I’m with you ! I’ve given up on my thief and building a warrior , shame ! When the nerf stops i will go back to thief until then , God be nice and protect us from weekly nerfing !
You forgot to say that basilisk is an ELITE SKILL !

Daecollo.9578:

Cluster Bomb is Slow, the slowest AOE in the game…

Thats why you use it in melee if you need to spam it. If you have to attack from range it still works out quite well with your initiative regeneration.

Shadow Refuge is on a LOOONG cooldown…

Thats because it is THAAAT good. Good skills have longer cooldowns. And if you’re not playing with idiots, you don’t need to rezz more than once a minute anyway.

Scorpion Wire Is ignored by bosses.

Guess why I mentioned trash packs?

Basilisk Venom lasts 1 second.

I had it last up to 5 secounds with venom share on the AC explo way 1 endboss. Thats ridiculously much considering a traited 36sec cooldown. Besides that it has 1.5 sec baseline duration.

Pistol offhand spammable smokecloud is cool, until you play a 80 warrior and realize 100b kills them, who cares about a stupid smokecloud if they are all dead?

Tell me more about how 100B insta-kills graveling-packs in AC. I’m also sure they’ll stop their knockdowns and bow down to the superior might of the greatsword warrior

I play an 80 warrior, thief, my first toon was a thief, and then I realized how useless they were in pve and rerolled to warrior.

No, you leveled a thief, it’s glaringly obvious that you never really played one (trying to imitate a warrior is not playing a thief – It’s ‘trying to imitate a warrior’)

No, you leveled a thief, it’s glaringly obvious that you never really played one (trying to imitate a warrior is not playing a thief – It’s ‘trying to imitate a warrior’)

..well said.I enjoy playing my thief.I play Warrior ,Elementalist and Mesmer too and I have it much harder whit them than on my thief PvE and Specialy PvP.

Oh look, yet another “Thieves are UP”-thread from Daecollo.

It’s not like perma-Blind and an extremely spam-able blast finisher is any good, no…

Perma blind?

Blind takes 6 initative… and does no damage…

Anyone who just stands there spamming blind needs punished.. ohwait.. they already are, they don’t do damage.

Ranger with a bird blinds more then a thief does.

Daecollo.9578:

Thieves don’t have good DPS.

Stopped reading here.
+20% damage to foes under 50% health.

i can show you why thieves get complained about and why you get nerfed.

skip to about 3 minutes when he actually starts fighting.

all he does is press #2 and then a stealth skill when he runs out of initiative.

….and he is still killing people with those impressive tactics.

im not trying to hate, i wanted to play a thief when i bought the game, but i think the class should be more challenging than this. i would feel lame to play this class right now.

I wasn’t aware 15-25 stacks of bleed, perma poison, perma weakness, good cripple uptime, boon stripping, spammable blast finisher, amzing single target CC if you swap some utilities around, and free rezzes on downed players was bad in a PvE team setting.

I must have been doing it wrong all this time.

@Daecollo well you obviously didn’t played a thief.I run a S/D in pvm and its a bit more offensive. I permanently aply blinds every 3 seconds while doing 2-3k damage whit Cloak and Dagger and also 1k whit daze.Sword does 3 hits and each hit whit my sword I do between 1.2-2k whit first 2 atacks and 2.4-3k whit 3’rd hit.I compared today whit a warrior damage Streght and discipline build.The warrior was hitting 4k Hundred Blades and 600 each hit ,1.2 crits maybe but I don’t know how often he lands them but I do each single time.I am not full damage either.I am only 30 criticals and the rest in survivability.I don’t even have to mention that after 50% I get 20% more damage and my survivability is better than a warriors any time of the day even if i spec full damage.
So what are warriors realy better at than a thieves.I don’t see any thief complaying on thief board but take a look on warrior threads.:)

What? Really…?

Sword/Dagger is actually really good sustained DPS and support. I’m not speced full berserkers and the third attack in the chain regularly crits for 3K+, and Cloak and Dagger can crit for 4K+.

Not to mention, because of traits,
>Every 4 seconds (because of revealed) I stealth and apply 3 stacks of weakness(Cloak and Dagger)
>Every time I stealth I 2 second daze (tactical strike)
>Every time I stealth I get 2 stacks of might (Hidden Assasin)
>Every time I stealth, I blind every foe near me (cloaked in shadow)
>Every time I stealth I regain 2 of the initiative spent to cast Cloak and Dagger (Infusion of Shadow) — this trait allows this combo to be almost endlessly spammed.

Tell any experienced dungeon go-er that you can not only blind ALL MOBS around you every 4 seconds, but dish out a 2 second daze every 4 seconds – trust me, they’ll consider it AMAZING support. I’ve gotten more compliments on that build in dungeons than I can count.

I think the problem here may be that OP isn’t thinking of support in the traditional sense, but the way I see it, thief is probably one of the best professions at combat control and disabling.

My warriors hundred blades hits for 18000 damage.

I’m glad you like doing that to mobs who are immune to those effects.

Stop linking prenerf videos where all the thief does is press 2, the thief has suffered about 4-5 damage nerfs since then.

I didn’t think thieves offered much group support until I did Mad King and realized how many combo fields I was dropping (shortbow #4, smoke screen and shadow refuge).

Plus reviving mates is easier stealthed.

ps: I say until I did mad king because it was my first dungeon.

Sure and our Cluster bombs don’t do 2k damage does 4k whitout the bleeds and it doesn’t leave you open to atacks.And by the time you dish out 1 HB we spam 6 CB worths of initiative so up to you whats better.

Warriors AUTOATTACK does more damage then CB.

Sure and our Cluster bombs don’t do 2k damage does 4k whitout the bleeds and it doesn’t leave you open to atacks.And by the time you dish out 1 HB we spam 6 CB worths of initiative(the least) so up to you whats better.