2x 80 Necro, 80 Ranger, 80 Thief
Thieves need to speak up - stop the uncalled for nerfs!
“my warrior on the other hand only has one option. keep fighting..”
Lying isnt going to help your argument. Warriors are extremely mobile in PvP if they want to be, they have a number of leaps and charges they can use to escape a battle and gain swiftness as well.
are you seriously going to compare those options and put them in the same league as stealth and teleport?
Can we all agree that lifespan on a glass cannon Thief versus a glass cannon Warrior isn’t really a fair comparison? The Thief can escape SO many situations that a Warrior in the same situation would die in.
< JADE QUARRY >
Zabroshan – 80 Guardian / Sorroe – 80 Mesmer
Hands Off My Octopus
Zabroshan – 80 Guardian / Sorroe – 80 Mesmer
Hands Off My Octopus
Thieves need to speak up - stop the uncalled for nerfs!
in Thief
Posted by: Imperator totius Sylvari.9164
I understand that Warriors can dish out alot of damage. Are you dismissing all the other goodies you get with the Thief profession? Do you think a Warrior does that kind of damage AND has an equal amount of mobility, utility, and survivability as a Thief?
Your heavy armour helps you with the your superior health also, and if you want mobility look no further to your greatsword skill 5, just lost your target hit 5, hit 3 if need be and thanks to signet of range you probably still have over 20 seconds of swiftness and your gone.
Thieves do have shadow refuge, but all you need is a knock back before 5 pulses and the thief is revealed, and a lot of people dont even bother swinging randomly in the refuge…
Founder of [CBA]/Former vE
No.2 Warrior NA/Irl behind Mr Kitten.7359
No.2 Warrior NA/Irl behind Mr Kitten.7359
Can we all agree that lifespan on a glass cannon Thief versus a glass cannon Warrior isn’t really a fair comparison? The Thief can escape SO many situations that a Warrior in the same situation would die in.
They’re comparable but via two entirely different scaling mechanisms. Warriors (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate durability and scale well with stats. Thieves (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate mobility and scale best with skill. As a result, at lower skill levels the warrior benefits more from their innate defensive characteristics, whereas at high skill levels the thief benefits more.
I understand that Warriors can dish out alot of damage. Are you dismissing all the other goodies you get with the Thief profession? Do you think a Warrior does that kind of damage AND has an equal amount of mobility, utility, and survivability as a Thief?
Your heavy armour helps you with the your superior health also, and if you want mobility look no further to your greatsword skill 5, just lost your target hit 5, hit 3 if need be and thanks to signet of range you probably still have over 20 seconds of swiftness and your gone.
Thieves do have shadow refuge, but all you need is a knock back before 5 pulses and the thief is revealed, and a lot of people dont even bother swinging randomly in the refuge…
Yeah, I do that every time…and have gotten alot of kills by doing it. Honestly, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think a glass cannon Thief has a much better go of it than a glass cannon Warrior. Armor doesn’t mean a whole hell of alot in this game in my experience.
< JADE QUARRY >
Zabroshan – 80 Guardian / Sorroe – 80 Mesmer
Hands Off My Octopus
Zabroshan – 80 Guardian / Sorroe – 80 Mesmer
Hands Off My Octopus
Can we all agree that lifespan on a glass cannon Thief versus a glass cannon Warrior isn’t really a fair comparison? The Thief can escape SO many situations that a Warrior in the same situation would die in.
They’re comparable but via two entirely different scaling mechanisms. Warriors (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate durability and scale well with stats. Thieves (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate mobility and scale best with skill. As a result, at lower skill levels the warrior benefits more from their innate defensive characteristics, whereas at high skill levels the thief benefits more.
I can see how the skill level of the individual Thief player would greatly impact their overall survivability…but couldn’t that be said for any profession?
< JADE QUARRY >
Zabroshan – 80 Guardian / Sorroe – 80 Mesmer
Hands Off My Octopus
Zabroshan – 80 Guardian / Sorroe – 80 Mesmer
Hands Off My Octopus
Can we all agree that lifespan on a glass cannon Thief versus a glass cannon Warrior isn’t really a fair comparison? The Thief can escape SO many situations that a Warrior in the same situation would die in.
They’re comparable but via two entirely different scaling mechanisms. Warriors (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate durability and scale well with stats. Thieves (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate mobility and scale best with skill. As a result, at lower skill levels the warrior benefits more from their innate defensive characteristics, whereas at high skill levels the thief benefits more.
I can see how the skill level of the individual Thief player would greatly impact their overall survivability…but couldn’t that be said for any profession?
Yes, but not to nearly the same extent, which was my point. Thieves have high skill cap survivability due to heavy reliance on evasion (interrupt, dodge, mobility skill timing) and misdirection (knowing when to stealth and how to act while stealthed), but pumping another 50 points into vitality isn’t going to do much compared to what a warrior gets out of those stat points. Conversely, warriors benefit heavily from those extra stat points, but there are less opportunities for warrior to distinguish themselves with player skill, just due to the nature of their skills and the cooldowns they have.
This is a weird dichotomy, and some thieves take it to mean “thieves are a skill based class, I won because of mad skills”, but it doesn’t really mean that.
The reason why you think glass warrior is weaker is because you’re in a WvW situation. You simply can’t run away (because everyone is hitting you). But when it comes to a small team situation, warriors can still pull off better numbers against them with survivability and even come up on top, where thieves have to immediately run away and wait for an opportunity.
They’re comparable but via two entirely different scaling mechanisms. Warriors (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate durability and scale well with stats. Thieves (even glass cannon ones) benefit from innate mobility and scale best with skill. As a result, at lower skill levels the warrior benefits more from their innate defensive characteristics, whereas at high skill levels the thief benefits more.
The reason this is totally wrong is simple.
Innate, passive benefits of the class should be even across the board based on situational awareness and positioning. Each class is given its own set of passives based solely on how the class is to be played. Therefore, player skill should benefit each class equally.
If a thief is able to get the better of a warrior because he has more mobility, then the warrior should be able to trounce the thief in all respects when he gets the chance to nullify that mobilty. And he should, ultimately, be given that chance through player skill.
As of right now, there is nothing the warrior has, that isn’t easily avoidable, to close the gap during melee combat when the thief is visible. Yet the thief puts out more burst damage than the warrior in a shorter period of time with a more spammable skill set.
I think I’ve had this convo with you before. Basically it all comes down to this: mobility is king in GW2. If you have mobility, you have surviviability. There’s no denying that. The thief is the highest mobility class in the entire game, both in combat and out of combat. He doesn’t need the spike damage backstab provides and the devs know it.
Its taken only a few good players, after release, to show the devs what this class can really do. There are a ton of ‘bads’ that play this class who are arguing they don’t need a nerf. The problem is, they either don’t play other classes or they don’t realize how bad they are at playing the game. The thief ‘crutch’ has blinded them.
The reason why you think glass warrior is weaker is because you’re in a WvW situation. You simply can’t run away (because everyone is hitting you). But when it comes to a small team situation, warriors can still pull off better numbers against them with survivability and even come up on top, where thieves have to immediately run away and wait for an opportunity.
Warriors can run away. They’re very good at it. Except when it comes to the thief. You can’t run from the most mobile class in the game…period.
I don’t know what delusions you’re under, but the thief can catch anyone and can outrun anyone. There’s absolutely no reason for you to die as a thief, and there is nobody that can get away from you.
In the world of balance, that’s called an opportunist. The problem is that thieves don’t have to play as an opportunist. They currently can play as a hunter. They enter combat, survive from invis and teleports, then chase down the one who needs to leave due to focus fire and finish them. All while engaged in combat. That isn’t opportunist play, that’s a sustained combatant. There hasn’t been one thief that I’ve lost to because he ran away and came back. The ones that beat me are good players that know how to juke properly. Combine trickery with the highest burst damage in the game and you’ve got a class that makes ‘bads’ think they’re good.
Bad thieves need to die just as easily as any other class. They currently don’t. You can either deny that and prove you’ve got a personal bias problem with thieves or accept that they’re still in need of tweaking; as the devs say and every patch since release has proven.
Well, stealth and movement is the main ability of the thief. From my point of view it’s like complaining about engineer’s turrets which give him additional dps or ranger for having a pet.
Also it seems that we just have too many warriors in the game to complain about “100 Blades”
In the latter, most of the high-burst setups people are using in PvP are completely unviable in PvE. PvE rewards constant ability to kill enemies at a quick and safe pace, whereas PvP (at least in this situation) rewards a single quick kill followed by a period of recuperation.
Speak for yourself. I absolutely love my BS build in PVE and I don’t use a bunch of utility skills to line up one huge backstab, which is why I’m strongly against nerfing the base ability. BS is fine, overpowered cooldowns (which ALL professions have) are the real cause of all nerf cries. They’ve already ruined S/P in PVE because of PVP whiners. If they destroy BS builds too in PVE, I’m done with this game.
troll verbal diarrhea
My first 80 was a warrior. Aside from lame utilities and overall just being the most boring class in game, you really don’t have that much to complain about. Your post history is filled with lies and exaggerations. Just cut your anti-thief crusade bs and go troll the warrior forums.
In the latter, most of the high-burst setups people are using in PvP are completely unviable in PvE. PvE rewards constant ability to kill enemies at a quick and safe pace, whereas PvP (at least in this situation) rewards a single quick kill followed by a period of recuperation.
Speak for yourself. I absolutely love my BS build in PVE and I don’t use a bunch of utility skills to line up one huge backstab, which is why I’m strongly against nerfing the base ability. BS is fine, overpowered cooldowns (which ALL professions have) are the real cause of all nerf cries. They’ve already ruined S/P in PVE because of PVP whiners. If they destroy BS builds too in PVE, I’m done with this game.
If you aren’t trying to “line up one huge backstab” then you aren’t using a high-burst setup, are you? You would probably be better off in PvE if the raw damage of backstab was replaced with something a little more synergized and useful. Futhermore, S/P is still pretty viable in PvE as a no-brainer setup that requires very little action to be effective. The PW nerf was poorly executed, but its AE capability along with evade means it still retains some PvE use.
Backstab is, on paper, “fine”. It is, however, also boring. Even if TTK in PvP wasn’t a problem using instant closers and precast stealth to negate the setup requirement for backstab I’d still say it is a bland ability in need of some spice.
This is ridiculous. Everyone here is talking about PvP and ANET is balancing completely around that. Yet thieves really aren’t doing that great in PvE compared to all of the other classes. Our survivability in dungeons is next to nothing given that we need to kill a mob before they kill us to survive. Seriously, there needs to be separate balancing between PvP and PvE. It’s clear that the current “balancing” that is taking place across all classes is slowly killing playbility. Honestly if ANET doesn’t start separating the two, I (along with many other PvE players) won’t be around to purchase any expansions.
Our survivability in dungeons is next to nothing given that we need to kill a mob before they kill us to survive.
Translation: Thief survivability in dungeons is bad when you use PvP doctrine to engage high-HP opponents that are tuned for an extended fight.
Thieves aren’t doing poorly in PvE, they are however one of the professions that does not do particularly well bringing PvP setups directly into PvE.
I think the devs should actually play the class and try most popular builds that players use to find out how weak thieves are and not give into crybabies who don’t know how to play their own class.
Have you guys noticed when thieves get downed in a fight 99% of the time we die. We have no chance at survival unlike other classes.
In the latter, most of the high-burst setups people are using in PvP are completely unviable in PvE. PvE rewards constant ability to kill enemies at a quick and safe pace, whereas PvP (at least in this situation) rewards a single quick kill followed by a period of recuperation.
Speak for yourself. I absolutely love my BS build in PVE and I don’t use a bunch of utility skills to line up one huge backstab, which is why I’m strongly against nerfing the base ability. BS is fine, overpowered cooldowns (which ALL professions have) are the real cause of all nerf cries. They’ve already ruined S/P in PVE because of PVP whiners. If they destroy BS builds too in PVE, I’m done with this game.
If you aren’t trying to “line up one huge backstab” then you aren’t using a high-burst setup, are you? You would probably be better off in PvE if the raw damage of backstab was replaced with something a little more synergized and useful. Futhermore, S/P is still pretty viable in PvE as a no-brainer setup that requires very little action to be effective. The PW nerf was poorly executed, but its AE capability along with evade means it still retains some PvE use.
Backstab is, on paper, “fine”. It is, however, also boring. Even if TTK in PvP wasn’t a problem using instant closers and precast stealth to negate the setup requirement for backstab I’d still say it is a bland ability in need of some spice.
I am using 10/30/30/0/0 BS spec. I very much am burst specced and geared and I enjoy the high risk/high reward gameplay in PVE. I DON’T find it boring, in fact it’s the only spec/profession combo I still find interesting anymore. The whole game feels very simplistic and dumbed down, I like having to manage a resource, timing and positioning of my attacks constantly. I don’t want it ruined or changed because of PVPers. So no, I would not “be better off in PvE if the raw damage of backstab was replaced with” anything.
Tulisin.6945
FWB.1704:
Our survivability in dungeons is next to nothing given that we need to kill a mob before they kill us to survive.
Translation: Thief survivability in dungeons is bad when you use PvP doctrine to engage high-HP opponents that are tuned for an extended fight.
Thieves aren’t doing poorly in PvE, they are however one of the professions that does not do particularly well bringing PvP setups directly into PvE.
@Tulisin.6945
Same could be said about players using other classes with PVE gear.
Thieves of all the world, go to roll a ranger and build it glass cannon, then tell me if you still have the guts to complain about your incoming nerf.
That’s very ironical, but ranger was a good class before as glass cannon that DID NOT need a nerf, and it got nerfed to the point where the ranger class isn’t nearly as great, now this is happening to us while warriors and guardians still have the same type of damage.
Are you saying that Guardians have the same burst as Thieves?
The max I’ve backstabbed a squishy with vulnerability was 8K + 5K steal + the normal 4K CND
I’ve seen warriors do 20K+ 100B and kill the guy before he can get up. I’ve seen 11K eviscerates and it could probably go higher with the right gear.
Right, but 100B burst build takes alot of setup and isn’t nearly as ‘on-demand’ as the Thief backstab build. And I was asking about your inclusion of Guardians in that statement. No way is a Guardian bursting for as much as a Thief.
I see I did include guardian, that was my mistake and ignore that, however backstab arguably takes the same amount of setup and isn’t on demand. No way is it on demand and if you do use it on demand (which at this point heartseeker would be much better in almost all scenarios except the original burst) it’s not nearly as effective. Not at all. It’s an intiative killer and requires your target to be off guard and not expecting it. If you’re already in the mud, backstab isn’t nearly as effective as people thinks. That’s a huge misconception. People think thieves can instantly spam backstab. And with the right skillset, it’s possible, but why? Heartseeker at that point would be much more effective and damaging.
Okay, fair enough. So do you feel that a Thief sacrifices as much as a Warrior when speccing full-on glass cannon? I don’t believe they do, not even close. In fact, with the amount of mobility and innate survivability (stealth) that a Thief has, I don’t see any reason why anyone would ever NOT run a glass cannon as a Backstab spec…
Stealth isn’t innate, you have to activate it through one of a few slot or weapon skills. And it certainly isn’t survivability. It doesn’t block a single point of damage. It’s a positioning tool. The current rendering issues cause it to be more effective than it should be, and most thieves against nerfs will agree that that issue needs to be fixed.
The warrior, on the other hand, is at least as mobile as the thief in combat (greatsword alone has at least two rush abilities that DON’T take resources away from their burst attacks), plus true innate passive survivability (extremely high health pool and the strongest armor in the game), PLUS abilities that directly block ALL incoming damage.
(edited by bwillb.2165)
bwillb.2165
JonathanSharp.7094:
Paranoid.9542:
Awful idea, wow. I’m all for getting yourself heard, but everyone making your own thread is a freaking stupid idea.
Ya, no need for multiple threads – it’ll just clutter the forum. One thread is sufficient.
How about keeping that same policy for the ones wanting the nerfs, eh? This forum is often almost nothing but cries for nerfs, to the point where players of the class cannot have a discussion.
Edit: In fact, just delete ALL of the people demanding nerfs. That’s not what this forum is for.
bwillb.2165:
Well Said Sir, Would love to hear his response to this one.
No other class can deal anywhere near 18k dmg.
Most classes can easily top 14k damage instantly or near-instantly, and that’s enough to kill a thief. 14k, 18k, 200k… doesn’t matter, they’re all a dead thief.
By the way, Basilisk venom has already been nerfed to near-uselessness. You should probably get caught up on balance before trying to be an authority on it.
(edited by bwillb.2165)
@ Mosharn.8357 I would love to see you play thief and dish out 18k damage go on prove it.
No other class can deal anywhere near 18k dmg.
Most classes can easily top 14k damage instantly or near-instantly, and that’s enough to kill a thief. 14k, 18k, 200k… doesn’t matter, they’re all a dead thief.
By the way, Basilisk venom has already been nerfed to near-uselessness. You should probably get caught up on balance before trying to be an authority on it.
then i think you dont see what ive seen past 2 weeks in wvw. Thief comes in uses basilisk venom then the said combo begins. Also im sure it dosent matter how much dmg it takes to kill a thief since if i get lucky and my aoe hits em its usually 1 whirlwind and they’re history but soon as their combo fails they spam 5 skill on SB and are gone like the wind.
Killing a thief is easy catching it is the hard part. Besides your insta 14k wont matter when they insta 18k and then dance on your dead body.
Good try though.
@ Mosharn.8357 I would love to see you play thief and dish out 18k damage go on prove it.
there is a forum post that shows a guy hitting for 18k with backstab.
Many posts with 8ks aswell which isnt much since those are the nub thieves but they can still dish out more dmg after that as there are many further combos to the known combos.
My first character was a thief btw. Condition built since i didnt want to join the instagib bandwagon.
Our survivability in dungeons is next to nothing given that we need to kill a mob before they kill us to survive.
Translation: Thief survivability in dungeons is bad when you use PvP doctrine to engage high-HP opponents that are tuned for an extended fight.
Thieves aren’t doing poorly in PvE, they are however one of the professions that does not do particularly well bringing PvP setups directly into PvE.
Your translation abilities suck. I don’t use a PvP build ever. I’m PvE only. i’m using DD with condition damage. Melee thieves do poorly in dungeons compared to all other melee classes. And for the love of god don’t say, “than just use ranged”. If a class is given melee weapons, they should be able to effectively use them as well as any other class.
Thieves need to speak up - stop the uncalled for nerfs!
in Thief
Posted by: Imperator totius Sylvari.9164
18k on a backstab? That might be able to be done in wvw, and if its a 18k with a backstab, don’t worry… 100b can still hit higher
Founder of [CBA]/Former vE
No.2 Warrior NA/Irl behind Mr Kitten.7359
No.2 Warrior NA/Irl behind Mr Kitten.7359
@Mosharn
Please refrain from posting if u have no idea what you are talking about, you’ll only embarrass yourself and undermines your argument, however invalid it already is.
I think what Anet should be doing is fixing all the bugs and useless/unviable traits/skills before talking anything about balance. This will open up the options for every class which may (but most likely not, judging from the community) stop the whining because they may have a way to counter. Even if they are looking to balance, it should not be done around WvW which is based on unbalanced wars (like in real life).
Its not the raw damage spike that everyone is complaining about, its the gimmicky and swift execution of said combo. Any of these 2 things can be done to make execution harder:
1: make steal interrupt casting (same should go for any other skill that has a teleport with a secondary effect)
2: make steal not apply basilisk venom
Please Anet, if you are going to nerf raw dmg because of the complaints from the other classes, PLEASE listen to the actual thief community when it comes to buffs, e.g. p/p is completely underpowered and yet nothing has been done about it. Right now my perception of your balance teams motto is “Nerf Thieves, Buff Warriors”
That’s in WvW you get orb bonus, obviously your going to get hit a lot more if the other server has all 3 orbs.
@Mosharn
Please refrain from posting if u have no idea what you are talking about, you’ll only embarrass yourself and undermines your argument, however invalid it already is.I think what Anet should be doing is fixing all the bugs and useless/unviable traits/skills before talking anything about balance. This will open up the options for every class which may (but most likely not, judging from the community) stop the whining because they may have a way to counter. Even if they are looking to balance, it should not be done around WvW which is based on unbalanced wars (like in real life).
Its not the raw damage spike that everyone is complaining about, its the gimmicky and swift execution of said combo. Any of these 2 things can be done to make execution harder:
1: make steal interrupt casting (same should go for any other skill that has a teleport with a secondary effect)
2: make steal not apply basilisk venom
Please Anet, if you are going to nerf raw dmg because of the complaints from the other classes, PLEASE listen to the actual thief community when it comes to buffs, e.g. p/p is completely underpowered and yet nothing has been done about it. Right now my perception of your balance teams motto is “Nerf Thieves, Buff Warriors”
I know more than you do sir. You are just being ignorant. I do not want thieves to be destroyed as i like playing mines but i also dont want them to be the ‘’i win vs anyone in 3 seconds’’ class.
Ive probably had more wvw experience than you have if you will play that card on me. You can ask anyone out there that isnt a instagib lover that thieves need a rework.
My examples are accurate as they get and you probably know this. You just havent fought enough thieves on other classes as i have or anyone else for that matter.
There are only 2 ways to counter thief instagib combo but thieves have a way to bounce back and start the counter with no time loss again. I would love to show you what i am talkin about. So you can see for your self how thieves are being played.
But i see what you are trying to say in you suggestion. I think SnD has like what cost of 5 to use? then the stealth 1 skill shud have the cost of 2-3 so the same combo cant be spammed. Could be a good change so if you counter it they dont bounce back and start same combo again.. well for a while but you will be more aware when they come back knowing they got 1 shot at the BS combo.
(edited by Mosharn.8357)
That’s in WvW you get orb bonus, obviously your going to get hit a lot more if the other server has all 3 orbs.
orbs gone insane dmg from BS still here.
The thief is a stealth burst class, which means they die easy. The burst has already been brought down greatly. Aoe damage pretty much kills the thief unless they get out very fast. What is the point in playing a melee burst in low armor if you take the last of the burst away. Many good players know how to counter a thief and there is not much a thief can do. Any more nerfs will make the profession pointless.
I really think the only broken part of the backstab build is Mug. Not sure why people don’t pay attention to it more.
Would be a pity for Anet to ignore the broken stuff and break fun builds because of it (see Pistol Whip/Quickness)
Breaking backstab stealth builds/steal being instant would suck – backstab is fun, steal can be used skillfully to counter stuff like thief downed teleport.
The real problem is Mug. A 10pt trait critting for 6k+ (almost 1/3 of the full combo’s damage) is ridiculous.
Acenn (Thief)
also L80 Ele/Necro/Mesmer
IoJ
also L80 Ele/Necro/Mesmer
IoJ
stuff
Please refrain from using Ad Hominem arguments when you don’t even know me, it only shows that you need to belittle others to feel good about yourself, its not constructive and completely unneeded.
Onto your points, the thing about the glass cannon bs thief bouncing back after failing the combo once is that:
1: you know he failed and will attempt it again
2: you would probably run away as fast as you can
Staying mobile and never stop moving is a great way to counter anything really. And yes, i know thieves have more mobility than any other profession, but it doesn’t hurt to try and run away does it?
Mosharn.8357
I know more than you do sir. You are just being ignorant. I do not want thieves to be destroyed as i like playing mines but i also dont want them to be the ‘’i win vs anyone in 3 seconds’’ class.
So…you say you know more than him but correct me if I am wrong, you just told me (
Mosharn.8357 My first character was a thief btw. Condition built since i didnt want to join the instagib bandwagon.)
Well I don’t think your qualified enough to talk about “18k back stabs”
You should take Frozenluvs advice and quit embarrassing yourself.
No other class can deal anywhere near 18k dmg.
Most classes can easily top 14k damage instantly or near-instantly, and that’s enough to kill a thief. 14k, 18k, 200k… doesn’t matter, they’re all a dead thief.
By the way, Basilisk venom has already been nerfed to near-uselessness. You should probably get caught up on balance before trying to be an authority on it.
then i think you dont see what ive seen past 2 weeks in wvw. Thief comes in uses basilisk venom then the said combo begins. Also im sure it dosent matter how much dmg it takes to kill a thief since if i get lucky and my aoe hits em its usually 1 whirlwind and they’re history but soon as their combo fails they spam 5 skill on SB and are gone like the wind.
Killing a thief is easy catching it is the hard part. Besides your insta 14k wont matter when they insta 18k and then dance on your dead body.
Good try though.
A single non-elite stun breaker completely negates the effect of basilisk venom now. How many elites share that weakness?
edit: wait, whirlwind? You’re playing a WARRIOR against thieves and having an issue? Yeah, the problem is definitely YOU. What’s 18k against a caster is like 14k against a warrior. Besides, 18k burst doesn’t even kill an afk warrior… Are you popping frenzy right before they hit you or something?
I mean hell, you’ve got a non-elite skill available that not only breaks stun (rendering basilisk venom useless) but also prevents ALL direct damage for 4 seconds. WHILE you continue to attack! And there’s NOTHING that can end it early! And you have a trait to give it an extra second! And another trait to activate it automatically at 25% health!
Either you’re really, really, really bad at this game, or you’ve got some sort of unfounded vendetta against thieves (possibly both).
(edited by bwillb.2165)
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5160/gw001ey.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1079/gw017l.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2650/gw018j.jpg
Best: 28k 100b
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9046/gw019n.jpg
Warrior has more surviblity and movement then thief. I actually LOL at thiefs on my warrior. 1 Whirlwind = dead thiefs even if you stealth.
And yet we keep getting nerfs.
Thieves of all the world, go to roll a ranger and build it glass cannon, then tell me if you still have the guts to complain about your incoming nerf.
That’s very ironical, but ranger was a good class before as glass cannon that DID NOT need a nerf, and it got nerfed to the point where the ranger class isn’t nearly as great, now this is happening to us while warriors and guardians still have the same type of damage.
Are you saying that Guardians have the same burst as Thieves?
The max I’ve backstabbed a squishy with vulnerability was 8K + 5K steal + the normal 4K CND
I’ve seen warriors do 20K+ 100B and kill the guy before he can get up. I’ve seen 11K eviscerates and it could probably go higher with the right gear.
Right, but 100B burst build takes alot of setup and isn’t nearly as ‘on-demand’ as the Thief backstab build. And I was asking about your inclusion of Guardians in that statement. No way is a Guardian bursting for as much as a Thief.
I see I did include guardian, that was my mistake and ignore that, however backstab arguably takes the same amount of setup and isn’t on demand. No way is it on demand and if you do use it on demand (which at this point heartseeker would be much better in almost all scenarios except the original burst) it’s not nearly as effective. Not at all. It’s an intiative killer and requires your target to be off guard and not expecting it. If you’re already in the mud, backstab isn’t nearly as effective as people thinks. That’s a huge misconception. People think thieves can instantly spam backstab. And with the right skillset, it’s possible, but why? Heartseeker at that point would be much more effective and damaging.
Exactly, I’ve taken down players with a HS spam before. It’s hard to avoid, costs very little initiative and closes the gap when they start running. HS also tends to scale in damage, the lower the health of the target, the more damage that is dealt.
Backstab is good but it’ not broken…not considering the amount of damage other classes can do which exceeds that of a Thief.
bwillb.2165
JonathanSharp.7094:
Paranoid.9542:
Awful idea, wow. I’m all for getting yourself heard, but everyone making your own thread is a freaking stupid idea.
Ya, no need for multiple threads – it’ll just clutter the forum. One thread is sufficient.
How about keeping that same policy for the ones wanting the nerfs, eh? This forum is often almost nothing but cries for nerfs, to the point where players of the class cannot have a discussion.
Edit: In fact, just delete ALL of the people demanding nerfs. That’s not what this forum is for.
eh so ya has Mr Sharp left the building? Coz I can still see so many threads with the word nerf clogging up our thief forum.
@Alistair
So you come at me telling me i dont know anything. Did the thought ever cross your mind that i would have changed builds. I started playing 2 days after game came out and hit 80 less than a week. So ive been testing loads of builds. So i do know what im talkin about and have ACTUALLY READ other ppls threads on this topic.
@bwillb
my post was meant for more experienced thief players. As they are the only ones who know how to get out of a bad situation fast. The nubs are dead in one whirl but an experienced thief uses stealth skill and spams with 5 skill on SB to get away which dosent mean you can catch them on any given class.
I do not use frenzy on my war. but in wvw takin a 18k hit is a death sentence because that 18k isnt the only amount of dmg you take. I have 22.2k hp so i know this.
And endure has a CD near basilisks CD. Sure it counters it but you wont have it up all the time to count every single basilisk you get hit with which are many as finding a thief alone is hard since they usually run in groups of 2+. Even if you do counter it with endure the thief will reset combo by using 5 skill on SB and comin right back at you with the combo without the venom and you have lost one or possibly 2 utilities by now and your rush/WW on CD while the thief has no CD since the skills are dependent on initiative.
Also no good war uses endure in traits its stupid long on CD and useless since you only buy your self 4 seconds in which your already dead.
@Alistar again after reading your cancerous reply to the other 3 ppl. Forums are to discuss anyone can discuss what ever they want. If you want to delete that then you are basically asking for the whole class topic to be deleted. Nerf/buff calls are common so stop takin em to heart.
stuff
Please refrain from using Ad Hominem arguments when you don’t even know me, it only shows that you need to belittle others to feel good about yourself, its not constructive and completely unneeded.
Onto your points, the thing about the glass cannon bs thief bouncing back after failing the combo once is that:
1: you know he failed and will attempt it again
2: you would probably run away as fast as you canStaying mobile and never stop moving is a great way to counter anything really. And yes, i know thieves have more mobility than any other profession, but it doesn’t hurt to try and run away does it?
one does not simply out run a thief. They have 1 built in skill on SB to get to you. Built in skill in dag, another in sword, and have shadow step utility. Also i dont need to say things on a forum of a game talkin to ppl i never met or ever will and put stuff in my posts that will make me feel better. Just here to discuss a insta win class that needs a change to get it balanced.
You listed 3 weapon sets, only two of which cant be at same time and both of them share same initiative pool. And shadowstep is an utility skill on a long cooldown.
I am full exotic zerk P/P thief with single defensive thing i have is my hide in shadows heal for quite some time now. And there was not even a single time I was one shot by anything or suffered instakill from a sole person. Where are you people coming from?
You listed 3 weapon sets, only two of which cant be at same time and both of them share same initiative pool. And shadowstep is an utility skill on a long cooldown.
I am full exotic zerk P/P thief with single defensive thing i have is my hide in shadows heal for quite some time now. And there was not even a single time I was one shot by anything or suffered instakill from a sole person. Where are you people coming from?
I think Mosharn is talking about one of those mythical 8 skill slot, 5 weapon set, 70 trait point thieves that everyone is complaining about. I dunno if its a group hallucination or if people just assume that multiple thieves are the same person.
You listed 3 weapon sets, only two of which cant be at same time and both of them share same initiative pool. And shadowstep is an utility skill on a long cooldown.
I am full exotic zerk P/P thief with single defensive thing i have is my hide in shadows heal for quite some time now. And there was not even a single time I was one shot by anything or suffered instakill from a sole person. Where are you people coming from?
A lot of us are talking about PvP… I think you’re on a PvE agenda.
Anyways, we need more buffs than anything else. Half of our traits and skills are so impractical in many situations. A thief is meant to be glass cannon. It’s overall power should be slightly higher than a Warrior, but defences should be the lowest. I agree that Backstab is slightly OP, but honestly, when can you land a C/D or a backstab without using a root? Whenever someone see’s a thief they just dodge and run. Our Dagger range is low. Many a-time I’ve missed moves cause of a Dodge. But that’s what Anet seems to forget. Once you dodge, root, stun, chill a thief, It’s game over. It’s rather unfair lowering our damage when we’re always insta-gibbed once we’re stunned.
Another issue is that people just look at numbers and feel that’s OP, but no one ever looks at time. The time it actually takes to get a good positioning, cast off a Stealth, then go behind and backstab is the same time it’ll take a Warrior to press f1 and do a 100b. The DPS would be exactly the same. So why ruin our burst damage, when in equal amount of animation time, a warrior can do as much, if not more damage then us? If anything, warriors need a nerf. Haste + Might stacked 100b with a GS will melt down anything/anyone. Yet people cry about a thief…
Mesmers can kill you even if they’re in downstate with their illusions (happened to me many times before). Mesmers can also survive longer and inflict crazy amounts of stuns and roots and kill a thief in a few seconds, the same time it’ll take a thief to kill them. Yet people cry about a thief.
What idd really like to see is stealth fixed in terms of pets/clones following thieves and hitting them wile stealthed and channeled abilities also homing the thief though stealth…
Just recently i stealth before the first projectile hit me but the cast had already stated and i took almost the full dmg from a Rapid Fire, although i dodged some of the projectiles wile in stealth i still took 7k dmg. this was in the jumping puzzle in the Eternal Battlegrounds wile the ranger was above me.
the ideal would be for when the “caster” loses target (due to stealth) the animation of the spell/skill would continue towards were the caster is facing (just like when casting out of combat with no target). if these target happens to be in front on him then he deserves to take the dmg, if he moves/dodges away from the channeled animation. this animation should NOT follow him.
Just my 2 crents, and i believe thieves are mostly fine besides that.
DervyA thief is meant to be glass cannon.
A glass cannon thief is meant to be a glass cannon, not all thieves. It is just one of many ways to build a thief. The sooner you stop restricting your view of the profession to one narrow playstyle the sooner the changes the devs want to make will stop bothering you so much. What is at stake here is the loss of one or two specific tactics, but the reward could be more power and synergy for many other builds.
Thanks OP, this needs to be said. For you entitled, QQ, I get a ribbon for 7th place, babies who come into forum and junk it up with you sob letters, go roll a thief. Level it to at least 40 and play at least 20 pvp matches with it. ACTUALLY LEARN the class you want to counter (crazy idea right?) instead of crawling to the forums and crying to Anet in a Cartman voice, "But Mooooomm Every 45 secs Thieves can wreck other glass cannon spec who don’t carry a stun break!!!!