Guild Wars 2

sorrow.2364:

This proves that the base damage of backstab is AT LEAST almost 5k damage.
All this assuming, obviously, that the thief was running with the highest damage boost possible, was on full initiative and that the screenshot was taken pre-nerf. If one of those conditions aren’t true, the base damage is even higher.

how about you go test your useless opinion in pvp and let me know of the results.
10×. (not WvW because it’s broken, just the random pvp in the mists)

bwillb.2165:

That doesn’t prove anything. That’s not a good source of information. Those 14k secreenshots did not include context. You don’t know what 3rd party buffs or debuffs either side had, you don’t know if there was a frenzy involved, etc. a quick 10 stack of vulnerability from a ranger and a warrior in frenzy could likely get it up to 20k damage, but that doesn’t mean that to find the base damage we take 20k damage minus the bonuses we can personally add.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/21001/gw002.jpg

Just look at this.
The target is for sure a Necromancer and the context is sPvP/tPvP.
This because in the kill log, there is only a thief killing, one kill is made by heartseeker and there are no heartseeker in the deathlog. So the person being killed is for sure Stynmar.

There was also a ranger around, he was running with MH Axe for sure which has no access to vulnerability.
The only ranger skill’s which deal vulnerability is Hunter Shot which you clearly don’t see in the deathlog.
The same ranger, as you know, has no way to apply Might to an ally and since there aren’t any other damage in the deathlog other than the thief’s ones and the ranger’s ones, we can assume that in that place there was just a ranger and a thief against a necro and probably a thief, dead right after the necro.

So we can easily reconstruct the situation and you clearly see there is nothing which falsify my calculations.
At maximum there could be 3 stacks of self-infliced vulnerability on the Necro which doesn’t really change the results.

So, what’s your next step? Do you want to claim that the screenshot is photoshopped?

DanH.5879:

sorrow.2364:

This proves that the base damage of backstab is AT LEAST almost 5k damage.
All this assuming, obviously, that the thief was running with the highest damage boost possible, was on full initiative and that the screenshot was taken pre-nerf. If one of those conditions aren’t true, the base damage is even higher.

how about you go test your useless opinion in pvp and let me know of the results.
10×. (not WvW because it’s broken, just the random pvp in the mists)

I’ve tried it from myself lots of times and now I’m trying to convince you with clear evidences.
But it looks like that they aren’t enough to fix some spoilt judgments.

I intially thought that Rfreak and Hellfish were wrong, but the more I argue with you, the more I think they are right.

ok, you are right then, so what you do propose ? nerf backstab, and then when the stealth fix comes, we rebuff the thief?
also i don’t get it, glass cannons thieves are my favorite food at pvp
i don’t understand how you can be killed by them, some tried, but either they restealthed, or died horribly. but then again, it is just me and my build.

sorrow.2364:

bwillb.2165:

That doesn’t prove anything. That’s not a good source of information. Those 14k secreenshots did not include context. You don’t know what 3rd party buffs or debuffs either side had, you don’t know if there was a frenzy involved, etc. a quick 10 stack of vulnerability from a ranger and a warrior in frenzy could likely get it up to 20k damage, but that doesn’t mean that to find the base damage we take 20k damage minus the bonuses we can personally add.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/21001/gw002.jpg

Just look at this.
The target is for sure a Necromancer and the context is sPvP/tPvP.
This because in the kill log, there is only a thief killing, one kill is made by heartseeker and there are no heartseeker in the deathlog. So the person being killed is for sure Stynmar.

There was also a ranger around, he was running with MH Axe for sure which has no access to vulnerability.
The only ranger skill’s which deal vulnerability is Hunter Shot which you clearly don’t see in the deathlog.
The same ranger, as you know, has no way to apply Might to an ally and since there aren’t any other damage in the deathlog other than the thief’s ones and the ranger’s ones, we can assume that in that place there was just a ranger and a thief against a necro and probably a thief, dead right after the necro.

So we can easily reconstruct the situation and you clearly see there is nothing which falsify my calculations.
At maximum there could be 3 stacks of self-infliced vulnerability on the Necro which doesn’t really change the results.

So, what’s your next step? Do you want to claim that the screenshot is photoshopped?

Sorry, I was trying to get to the bottom of it in a logical, scientific manner. I thought I had finally found someone who was somewhat civil about it on the other side, but I’m starting to think that was a mistake with your last comment there. In any case, it’s possible that there may be a bug in the calculation somewhere. because with the build that a few of your say does [insert number between 14k and 21k here] damage, I see 7-8k 90% of the time, with the occasional spike up to 11k or so, which would kind of support the possibility of there being a bug under certain situations.

So in conclusion, the base damage is fine, the buffs when working as intended are fine, anet fix your kitten bugs.

here is a secret:
each 1 point of might does 5% dmg, ok
put 15 stacks of might = +75% more damage ? how about that ?
(just activate 3 signetstrait)

ah yes, forgot to mentin the might for each second under stealth→
20+stacks of might ? is that possible ? yeah, why not…

@OP and all other people saying the devs are puppets to the “QQ kids” on the forums.

Do you really think they just buff/nerf classes based on the mood of the forums? Do you actually have that little faith that the developers that spent years crafting a game wouldn’t actually play the classes in question to determine themselves if the classes needed tweaking?

Do you actually think your opinion matters? For or against whichever buff/nerf. In the end it is their call. It is their game. Stop acting like a spoiled child who thinks his toys are about to get taken away. There hasn’t even been an official post that said thief nerf incoming. This is all contagious conspiracy theory.

In the end I’m sure the developers will make the right call. Whether we get redesigned, nerfed or buffed. Have some faith… Look at the quality of the game you’re playing and then tell me you don’t have confidence they know what they’re doing.

Wreckdum.8367:

@OP and all other people saying the devs are puppets to the “QQ kids” on the forums.

Do you really think they just buff/nerf classes based on the mood of the forums? Do you actually have that little faith that the developers that spent years crafting a game wouldn’t actually play the classes in question to determine themselves if the classes needed tweaking?

After the Pistol Whip nerf? After thieves have gotten nerf after nerf yet have received no significant buff since the times in beta when there was a general consensus that we were balanced or even a bit underpowered? Yes, that’s exactly what I think. It’s been made quite obvious. It’s already been made apparent in other games when this sort of thing goes on. Early on I was hoping ArenaNet would be different, but that hope has failed us.

And after Jon Peters’ original response to requests for an FoV slider, I have to take everything arenanet says or does with a grain of salt.

DanH.5879, please log into the game and type /wiki might
after that you might try to reread list of thief traits. Than come back to edit your post

Wreckdum.8367:

There hasn’t even been an official post that said thief nerf incoming. This is all contagious conspiracy theory.

Actually they did officially say they’re specifically looking at the base damage for backstab right now, which is a good indication that it’s getting toned down.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/2

You can blame all the baseless QQ threads for that.

Ichishi.9613:

DanH.5879, please log into the game and type /wiki might
after that you might try to reread list of thief traits. Than come back to edit your post

Or just… you know… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might

DanH.5879:

here is a secret:
each 1 point of might does 5% dmg, ok
put 15 stacks of might = +75% more damage ? how about that ?
(just activate 3 signetstrait)

ah yes, forgot to mentin the might for each second under stealth->
20+stacks of might ? is that possible ? yeah, why not…

man, the thief with 10stacks of might because he was meld with warrior or ele party (signet of rage) .. there’s no way glass cannon thief had 3 signet in utility skill or activate it on the same time for only 15stack might 5s boon..

and the +might traits is just given when go in stealth.. not each second

ok then, i am idiot and i rest my case.
still, backstab = 3xbase damage (from the back), what is wrong with that ?
just because buffed goes trough the roof, it affects my build, no, it isn’t a bs build.
but i like to give a 1-2k dmg sometimes with it
i would really want a compensation for nerfing, in other areas. not just nerf and voila, you can play without an arm and a leg, have fun ! (just the 6+nerfs in a row, inclding the dagger storm),i considered the signet thing a welcome buff-nerf.

sorrow.2364:

Thief can stack up at the same time:
+10% damage with both daggers
+5% damage with Dagger Training
+10% damage with Exposed Weakness
+10% damage with First Strikes

If by “+10% damage with both daggers” you mean dual sigils, they don’t stack unless it was changed recently.

The other stuff (5 % weapon-based boost and two conditional 10 % boosts) are fairly standard and something any glass-cannon profession would likely take.

I remember saying in one of those threads that the devs wouldn’t stop until thieves would have a pillow for a weapon and 1hp…I take that back! Devs, please give us our glass-cannons back!

I’ve said this once. I’ll say it again. The 20K backstabs people are claiming can no longer be done. That has changed and it is now IMPOSSIBLE. If you still think thieves are capable of 20K backstabs then it show’s how ignorant you are on the subject.

Doomdesire.9365:

I’ve said this once. I’ll say it again. The 20K backstabs people are claiming can no longer be done. That has changed and it is now IMPOSSIBLE. If you still think thieves are capable of 20K backstabs then it show’s how ignorant you are on the subject.

None said about 20k damage.
Most people are referring to 20k backstab combo, which includes Mug and CnD. That combo, dear sir, still deals 20k damage.

Tulisin.6945:

sorrow.2364:

Thief can stack up at the same time:
+10% damage with both daggers
+5% damage with Dagger Training
+10% damage with Exposed Weakness
+10% damage with First Strikes

If by “+10% damage with both daggers” you mean dual sigils, they don’t stack unless it was changed recently.

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

DanH.5879:

ok then, i am idiot and i rest my case.
still, backstab = 3xbase damage (from the back), what is wrong with that ?
just because buffed goes trough the roof, it affects my build, no, it isn’t a bs build.
but i like to give a 1-2k dmg sometimes with it
i would really want a compensation for nerfing, in other areas. not just nerf and voila, you can play without an arm and a leg, have fun ! (just the 6+nerfs in a row, inclding the dagger storm),i considered the signet thing a welcome buff-nerf.

You are right. Buff will come to something which is weak in comparison.
Backstab needs a nerf, this is sure, Traps, on the other hand, need help.

bwillb.2165:

Sorry, I was trying to get to the bottom of it in a logical, scientific manner. I thought I had finally found someone who was somewhat civil about it on the other side, but I’m starting to think that was a mistake with your last comment there. In any case, it’s possible that there may be a bug in the calculation somewhere. because with the build that a few of your say does [insert number between 14k and 21k here] damage, I see 7-8k 90% of the time, with the occasional spike up to 11k or so, which would kind of support the possibility of there being a bug under certain situations.

So in conclusion, the base damage is fine, the buffs when working as intended are fine, anet fix your kitten bugs.

The point is, I’ve shown you proofs that base damage of backstab when hitting on the back is way higher than 2k damage as you were claiming and it still looks like you don’t want to accept that fact.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

sorrow.2364:

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

Again, you don’t get base damage by working backwards from situational fringe-case damage numbers. The wiki has the absolute base damage and the equation needed to get the actual damage done working up from there, if you’re interested.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

They don’t usually hit for 5k each. The average damage I’m seeing on crits is about 7000-8500 for backstab, 1800-3200 for CnD, and 1700-3000 for Mug, with a very rare 9k backstab or 5k CnD or mug every now and then. Out of about 50 tries I got the stars to align once for a maximum total burst of close to 19k. Certainly not the norm, and can be matched by mesmer and far outclassed by warrior. And I think it may be a bug that mug and cnd are getting that high once in a while, because that’s an awful big gap for just weapon damage variance compared to other abilities like backstab.

So here’s a nice current video for anyone saying that thieves burst isn’t still completely redic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x9o0LJor-HQ#!

bwillb.2165:

sorrow.2364:

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

Again, you don’t get base damage by working backwards from situational fringe-case damage numbers. The wiki has the absolute base damage and the equation needed to get the actual damage done working up from there, if you’re interested.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

They don’t usually hit for 5k each. The average damage I’m seeing on crits is about 7000-8500 for backstab, 1800-3200 for CnD, and 1700-3000 for Mug, with a very rare 9k backstab or 5k CnD or mug every now and then. Out of about 50 tries I got the stars to align once for a maximum total burst of close to 19k. Certainly not the norm, and can be matched by mesmer and far outclassed by warrior. And I think it may be a bug that mug and cnd are getting that high once in a while, because that’s an awful big gap for just weapon damage variance compared to other abilities like backstab.

Base damage does not take into account the Power stat, which actually raise it up really high and also weapon damage.

Since the damage calculation is unknown right now, the only way to get the damage of Backstab scaled on full power is to take an example of a landed backstab, removing all the damage boosts provided by traits/sigils/runes and see what is found and claim it to be the minimum base backstab damage bonus because we are considering that the screenshot used as example is based of a fringe situation, as you said, but in the other way you might think, because we are assuming that the damage dealt benefits from all the damage boosters possible.

So, we have figured out that the minimum base damage dealt on a light vest 900-toughness character, with maximum power possible is about 4.5k damage.

It doesn’t matter if it is a fringe case as you are claiming to be or not, we aren’t able to know that. Might stacks (not so many anyway) and vulnerability stacks doesn’t change this result that much, it can vary around 4-5k damage anyway, far from the 2k damage you are claiming to be the base backstab damage.
The only thing we know is that it happened and we have proofs of it; this is more then enough to get an estimation of the base backstab damage.

Anyway, claiming that other professions can deal that damage isn’t a valid justification. Probably they also need to be balanced, we don’t know, but it isn’t in topic.

What you have to do is proving me that dealing over 15k damage in a combo which takes about a second to be executed, has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation is fair in terms of balance.

The funny thing is, even when thieves get nerfed, their glass cannon specs will still massively outdamage Elementalists, and still be able to actually escape

What you have to do is proving me that dealing over 15k damage in a combo which takes about a second to be executed, has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation is fair in terms of balance.

has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation

has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation

has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation

This simply is not true. That’s where it’s balanced, it is extremely easy to counter once you know what’s going on. That’s why you don’t see this build much if at all outside of low-end play. It also absolutely requires preparation, you have to save all of your major cooldowns and achieve positioning behind your target to get decent damage out of it. it’s not like you can just run up to the first person you see, smash a few buttons, then move on to the next target and do the same level of burst again 3 seconds later. That’s what most proponents of the nerf want you to believe, but that’s simply not the case.

Angel.1435:

The funny thing is, even when thieves get nerfed, their glass cannon specs will still massively outdamage Elementalists, and still be able to actually escape

Elementalist damage isn’t bad, really. And their mobility options are pretty high up there. It just has a much lower skill floor than most classes, meaning that you have to try a good bit harder in order to get the damage that most other classes can get out the door. It could certainly use some tweaks to streamline it a bit, and much like Thief, it needs more options to be viable.

bwillb.2165:

This simply is not true. That’s where it’s balanced, it is extremely easy to counter once you know what’s going on. That’s why you don’t see this build much if at all outside of low-end play. It also absolutely requires preparation, you have to save all of your major cooldowns and achieve positioning behind your target to get decent damage out of it. it’s not like you can just run up to the first person you see, smash a few buttons, then move on to the next target and do the same level of burst again 3 seconds later. That’s what most proponents of the nerf want you to believe, but that’s simply not the case.

What I said is true.

It is hard to counter
Backstab burst is almost instant and most the time is coupled with Devourer Venom. Once the burst start, which is a matter of fractions of second, if you don’t have any invulnerability skill, you’ll probably get killed or get almost all your HP bar taken away. Keep in mind that not every profession have access to invulnerability and all are on very high cooldown.
You can also anticipate the burst with a dodge, but, still, it is a matter of luck because there is no visual clue at all of the burst coming other than the presence of the thief.
Other bursts, like HB, Kill Shot, Eviscerate and Shatter have clear visual clues of burst coming, like Bull’s Charge animation, the warriors standing on his knee for 2 seconds, Eviscerate jump and loads of clones ready to be shattered. What is the visual clue to backstab burst?

It doesn’t require preparation
Mesmers’ and Warriors’ burst need to be prepared.
Shatter burst need that you have to unload all your clones/phantasms before the burst take place and it usually takes more than 4 seconds, which is enough to the victim to realize that the burst is coming, making it also easy to counter.
Warriors’ burst, like Eviscerate and Kill Shot, need adrenaline and to build up a full andrenaline bar you need at least 4-5 seconds of fight.
What is the preparation on BS burst? Just using 2 instant-cast skills which can be activated 30+ seconds before the encounter?

I think that you agree that it is risk free because I don’t see any arguments against it.

The nerfs aren’t uncalled for, I fully expect my thief to be nerfed, then nerfed again, the entire premise of the class stealth->huge burst->ability to escape is utterly flawed as it is in every game that tries it that way.

What’s more Anet have actually made it even more ridiculous by allowing the spamming of abilites (to an extent), giving numerous ways to close gaps to target/open gaps and dumbest of all making in combat stealth available on demand (pretty much), there is reason in combat stealth is usually on a long cooldown in games, it is ridiculously powerful and then on top of that removed that damage brings you out of / prevents stealth in most games.

Every single game I have ever played where a class follows this formula, it bounces between UP & OP, because the basic design is unbalancable, it seems game designers are only blessed with basic AI, they haven’t developed the ability to learn.

Saying that, no the class doesn’t need nerfs, it needs a complete reworking.

LOCO.1785:

Actually they did officially say they’re specifically looking at the base damage for backstab right now, which is a good indication that it’s getting toned down.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/2

Nope, he said they’re thinking about reducing the spike damage, which means the whole C&D, Steal, Backstab combo. What they most likely gonna do is increasing the time it takes to perform such combos, e.g. by giving offensive teleports a short aftercast delay.

well CnD has 0.5 sec cast time now. have fun
and yes, all the patches have stealth attribute if you can see, lol

sorrow.2364:

Doomdesire.9365:

I’ve said this once. I’ll say it again. The 20K backstabs people are claiming can no longer be done. That has changed and it is now IMPOSSIBLE. If you still think thieves are capable of 20K backstabs then it show’s how ignorant you are on the subject.

None said about 20k damage.
Most people are referring to 20k backstab combo, which includes Mug and CnD. That combo, dear sir, still deals 20k damage.

Tulisin.6945:

sorrow.2364:

Thief can stack up at the same time:
+10% damage with both daggers
+5% damage with Dagger Training
+10% damage with Exposed Weakness
+10% damage with First Strikes

If by “+10% damage with both daggers” you mean dual sigils, they don’t stack unless it was changed recently.

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

DanH.5879:

ok then, i am idiot and i rest my case.
still, backstab = 3xbase damage (from the back), what is wrong with that ?
just because buffed goes trough the roof, it affects my build, no, it isn’t a bs build.
but i like to give a 1-2k dmg sometimes with it
i would really want a compensation for nerfing, in other areas. not just nerf and voila, you can play without an arm and a leg, have fun ! (just the 6+nerfs in a row, inclding the dagger storm),i considered the signet thing a welcome buff-nerf.

You are right. Buff will come to something which is weak in comparison.
Backstab needs a nerf, this is sure, Traps, on the other hand, need help.

bwillb.2165:

Sorry, I was trying to get to the bottom of it in a logical, scientific manner. I thought I had finally found someone who was somewhat civil about it on the other side, but I’m starting to think that was a mistake with your last comment there. In any case, it’s possible that there may be a bug in the calculation somewhere. because with the build that a few of your say does [insert number between 14k and 21k here] damage, I see 7-8k 90% of the time, with the occasional spike up to 11k or so, which would kind of support the possibility of there being a bug under certain situations.

So in conclusion, the base damage is fine, the buffs when working as intended are fine, anet fix your kitten bugs.

The point is, I’ve shown you proofs that base damage of backstab when hitting on the back is way higher than 2k damage as you were claiming and it still looks like you don’t want to accept that fact.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

Read the last 3 pages and go enter some other threads. That was not directed at you, but if you feel like you need to argue about a fact, then go ahead.

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Turbolence.3842:

Thieves of the world unite!!! Let’s go into the forum warriors and mesmers, and how do they, ask every day of the nerf to their professions … But I know, we will not because we are thieves .. we fight in the shade, we have honor, dignity, and above all despite all future nerf us we will always be stronger than them!!! ahahahahaha

Agreed, thieves probably will continue OP and easy to play aftar nerfs.

kineticdamage.6279:

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Like every other profession!
It’s not only thieves who die really fast if they don’t invest in toughness or defensive skills, but thieves have also another advantage: Stealth.

Just take, for instance, the Elementalist. If you don’t put any point in Earth Magic or Water Magic, you are going to die in a couple of hits anyway. Necromancer are in the same situation, same for Warrior, Guardians, Rangers and Engineers.

But Thieves have stealth and high mobility to leave a fight you are going to lose or to get better positioning.

The point is that BS build damage right now is too high also for a glass cannon.

sorrow.2364:

kineticdamage.6279:

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all. It will at least take 1 more hit than against an medium/light armour users.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Like every other profession!
It’s not only thieves who die really fast if they don’t invest in toughness or defensive skills, but thieves have also another advantage: Stealth.

Just take, for instance, the Elementalist. If you don’t put any point in Earth Magic or Water Magic, you are going to die in a couple of hits anyway. Necromancer are in the same situation, same for Warrior, Guardians, Rangers and Engineers.

But Thieves have stealth and high mobility to leave a fight you are going to lose or to get better positioning.

The point is that BS build damage right now is too high also for a glass cannon.

Well, saying a warrior will die a couple of hits if they don’t have any traits in toughness/vit is stretching it.

FrozenLuv.6017:

sorrow.2364:

kineticdamage.6279:

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all. It will at least take 1 more hit than against an medium/light armour users.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Like every other profession!
It’s not only thieves who die really fast if they don’t invest in toughness or defensive skills, but thieves have also another advantage: Stealth.

Just take, for instance, the Elementalist. If you don’t put any point in Earth Magic or Water Magic, you are going to die in a couple of hits anyway. Necromancer are in the same situation, same for Warrior, Guardians, Rangers and Engineers.

But Thieves have stealth and high mobility to leave a fight you are going to lose or to get better positioning.

The point is that BS build damage right now is too high also for a glass cannon.

Well, saying a warrior will die a couple of hits if they don’t have any traits in toughness/vit is stretching it.

Have you tried playing a Warrior?
You die really fast if you don’t have any toughness/vitality.

sorrow.2364:

kineticdamage.6279:

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Like every other profession!
It’s not only thieves who die really fast if they don’t invest in toughness or defensive skills, but thieves have also another advantage: Stealth.

Just take, for instance, the Elementalist. If you don’t put any point in Earth Magic or Water Magic, you are going to die in a couple of hits anyway. Necromancer are in the same situation, same for Warrior, Guardians, Rangers and Engineers.

But Thieves have stealth and high mobility to leave a fight you are going to lose or to get better positioning.

The point is that BS build damage right now is too high also for a glass cannon.

There´s some differencies between classes, you know? :-)
For example the health pool (Warrior, Necro), the armor (what, again Warrior? + Guardian), healing abilities (f.e. Elementalist, Guardian)

Thieves has stealth instead, it doesn´t reduce dmg, doesn´t heal without traits, doesn´t enlarge our HPs. It makes us harder to hit though (which sounds fair to me, because player with brain can still hit you if you´re a noob like everyone says about the most of Thief players). The rendering bug is the only problem in this mechanic, and it wasn´t created by Thief players, but gues what? It´s Anet´s responsibility, so let them fix it for you and don´t you dare to suggest anything else, don´t be unreasonable, please.

STRanger.5120:

sorrow.2364:

kineticdamage.6279:

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Like every other profession!
It’s not only thieves who die really fast if they don’t invest in toughness or defensive skills, but thieves have also another advantage: Stealth.

Just take, for instance, the Elementalist. If you don’t put any point in Earth Magic or Water Magic, you are going to die in a couple of hits anyway. Necromancer are in the same situation, same for Warrior, Guardians, Rangers and Engineers.

But Thieves have stealth and high mobility to leave a fight you are going to lose or to get better positioning.

The point is that BS build damage right now is too high also for a glass cannon.

There´s some differencies between classes, you know? :-)
For example the health pool (Warrior, Necro), the armor (what, again Warrior? + Guardian), healing abilities (f.e. Elementalist, Guardian)

Thieves has stealth instead, it doesn´t reduce dmg, doesn´t heal without traits, doesn´t enlarge our HPs. It makes us harder to hit though (which sounds fair to me, because player with brain can still hit you if you´re a noob like everyone says about the most of Thief players). The rendering bug is the only problem in this mechanic, and it wasn´t created by Thief players, but gues what? It´s Anet´s responsibility, so let them fix it for you and don´t you dare to suggest anything else, don´t be unreasonable, please.

I haven’t said that Stealth should be removed or nerfed to thieves. Read the post I was answering, he stated that thieves have worse survivability compared to other professions, so they have high damage to compensate which is absolutely untrue, as you also stated.
I know that Stealth is the cause of thieves’ low health, but looks like many thieves think that high damage is the reason of their low hp pool.

sorrow.2364:

I haven’t said that Stealth should be removed or nerfed to thieves. Read the post I was answering, he stated that thieves have worse survivability compared to other professions, so they have high damage to compensate which is absolutely untrue, as you also stated.
I know that Stealth is the cause of thieves’ low health, but looks like many thieves think that high damage is the reason of their low hp pool.

The reason for Thieves low HP is certainly the dmg output + average armor (low if dmg specced) and stealth. But stealth is really far away from invulnerability as some other classes have (Ele for example, and yes, I know some of those skills are horribly bugged – e.g. Mist form, but that´s not the topic here). So Thief unfortunately have a little of active defences (like protection or invulnerability where skills can be normally used – focus earth Ele skill f.e.) that the class deserves the high dmg it has (to be honest, some high armor, high HP dudes can do even more dmg in the same time, everybody knows that, but nobody cares until an Enemy #1 isn´t nerfed…..)

Backstab does less damage than an axe warrior third autoattack chain skill, Tripple Chop. Why would you want to nerf it even more?

Seriously DanH.
Stop with this, you are only looking ridiculous.

stof.9341:

Backstab does less damage than an axe warrior third autoattack chain skill, Tripple Chop. Why would you want to nerf it even more?

Because Triple Chop:
1. Cannot be use in sequence with Mug and CnD making a combo which deal 16k+ damage in less than a second.
2. Casts in 1 1/2 seconds, not 1/4 second. So it casts in 6x the time than backstab needs to be casted.
3. Can be used only after Chop and Double Chop.
4. Is easy to figure it out, because the warrior isn’t invisible before Triple Chop lands neither it is 600+ away.
5. Needs the warrior to be exposed and defenseless for the whole casting time plus the amount of time needed to cast Chop and Double Chop.
6. has to crit for the whole 3 chop in order to deal the same backstab damage. So if you have 50% to crit, you’ll have 12,5% chance to crit all the chops, while with backstab, when traited, you have 100% chance to crit and deal maximum damage.

It isn’t all about numbers. It is also about ease to counter, casting time and preparation.

i’ve been quietly reading this thread for a while, and to be honest, it’s rather amusing. sorrow, if you’re familiar with poker, you’ve tipped your hand. the problem isn’t the damage, as other classes have been shown to do an equal amount. it isn’t the set up, because it’s been shown to be a similar amount as other classes. no. what you have a problem with is stealth. the fact that you can’t see the person coming before they attack you. you’ve pointed this out in several of your posts already, so there’s no use in denying that fact. you simply don’t like stealth. it’s ok. just don’t try to hide your hatred behind a mask of other things. a lot of people don’t like stealth. no matter how it’s implemented. your math has been faulty, at best, and filled with numerous (as you put it) unknown variables. basic algebra tells us that no definitive number can be reached while there are unknown variables.

you’re coming off as a “forum warrior”. the kinda who talks a big game on the forums all the time, because they spend so little time in the actual game. quite frankly, it’s insulting to the intelligence to every poster you’ve started arguing with, and you really should give it a rest for a bit.

it wouldn’t be so bad if you didn’t have such an obvious, biased, agenda against a stealth based class. but you do. so i’m calling your bluff. since you just can’t handle a stealth based class, please, stop posting in the forum dedicated to the stealth based class.

because, you see, no matter how well you may argue your biased point, it won’t matter. none of the developers are reading your post thinking “oh gee, this guy’s really on the ball! we should make the game work how HE says it should work!” they’re going to be doing testing, and using numbers generated in a controlled environment to administer any changes to the game. not your flawed, biased, “math”. real hard data.

and what will be, will be. and i would be willing to wager that you will be back in here the next day saying to nerf something else about the stealth based class, because until they get rid of stealth altogether, you’re never going to feel secure. since i highly that they would actually just jettison stealth from the game, get used to living in fear.

My main is a guardian, however my alt is a level 80 thief. I believe the nerfs are all uncalled for. The thief job is supposed to deliver high burst damage. Possibly the highest in the game as it does in other mmos. It is a very vulnrable class with one of the lowest hp pools in the game and if u get only a few hits on you – you are done for. Furthermore, the thief class is setup as primarily a single target class. So once 2 or more people show up things can get difficult fast- no aoe basic attacks like warrior with greatsword. It is basically a trade off which has been defined in virtually all games. I am tired of the cry babies. If you go glass cannon spec and get taken down by a thief you deserve it. If you want to nerf something start with mesmers and warriors who have been enjoying the support from Anet. I have been seeing a few classes gettin unecessary nerfs since game launch and creating the unfair dominance of a few classes over them. Guardian is already kittened by enjoying the lowest hp alongside thief with no added base advantages. the traits also need to be redone. Anet needs to stop nerfing classes because of little babies. Its ok for a warrior to have the highest health in the game and also very high crit damage? Its also ok for mesmers to be able to spam daze and confusion and give u a kittenload of conditions and get generous boons? come on.

Baz.7305:

My main is a guardian, however my alt is a level 80 thief. I believe the nerfs are all uncalled for. The thief job is supposed to deliver high burst damage. Possibly the highest in the game as it does in other mmos. It is a very vulnrable class with one of the lowest hp pools in the game and if u get only a few hits on you – you are done for. Furthermore, the thief class is setup as primarily a single target class.

People keep parroting this stuff, and people keep being wrong. Most of those things (thieves are a burst class, thieves are a single target class) are playstyle choices that have nothing to do with the profession. You choose to play that way, the profession doesn’t force you, there are tons of viable ways to play a thief that don’t involve trying to instantly close on and kill single targets.

I want to see a back stab change because back stab is a boring ability with very little potential for synergy. I look forward to the day that back stab is a more viable match for more combos and situations with more depth and a higher skill cap. Achieving such low TTK is an issue for PvP as a whole, and one they’re seeking to rectify.

Backstab is the pinnacle of thiefs damage. It should not be nerfed but more combos maybe even skill changes should be incorporated into thief. Furthermore, the thief class still needs a way of making a difference in dungeon runs. So in actuality the class needs to be tweaked and BUFFED.

And btw that is how the thief class is defined in the gaming world…a single target high damage class with low health that is able to hit hard and run/hide.

LOCO.1785:

Tulisin.6945:

People keep parroting this stuff, and people keep being wrong.

No people keep on ‘parroting’ this stuff because it’s true. Certain professions fill roles better than others, are you denying that?

Certain builds fill certain roles better, certain professions have better options for certain builds. “You can create a good burst ambush thief” is a very different statement than “Thieves are made for X” and is equivalent to telling engineers that because they can drop healing packs that is their class’ intended functional identity. Ultimately, those with an extremely narrow view of how a thief “should” be played are more harmful to the profession and community than any amount of random people saying “nerf X, it is overpowered”.

Baz.7305:

And btw that is how the thief class is defined in the gaming world…a single target high damage class with low health that is able to hit hard and run/hide.

Cool? GW2 has gone to great lengths to deny traditional class tropes and you’re going to bring it all back to “Well in this other game there was also a class called this so it should work this way”. Thieves have the potential to excellently fill roles beyond “high damage against a single target”, denying that is defeatist and a statement of immalleability concerning your profession. Everyone has a right to pursue their preferred play style to the best of their ability, but the second that becomes “change the game because my play style is the only way to play” it becomes selfish.

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I’ll just leave these here. Also that was a warrior and the pin shot all but rendered thief mobility useless. I did say engineer, meant warrior(although engineers are capable of those kinds of burst, as well).

Jinks.2057:

You are seriously complaining about thieves in sPvP and tPvP.

Stop.

No one that plays higher tiers have any problems in dealing w/ glass cannon thieves. The people that are having problems are people running around WvW…..Anet doesn’t balance on WvW, but yet you horrible players keep complaining.

Stop.

Umm the entire Bunker build meta is due to the fact the YES people have problems dealing with glass cannon thieves and the insane burst builds in general. It also plays into holding points since that’s kinda how you win the game. So while thieves aren’t going to be the ones carrying the current SPvP maps since they are conquest, that doesn’t make them any less OP, especially when a new game mode comes out.

Tulisin.6945:

Baz.7305:

And btw that is how the thief class is defined in the gaming world…a single target high damage class with low health that is able to hit hard and run/hide.

Cool? GW2 has gone to great lengths to deny traditional class tropes and you’re going to bring it all back to “Well in this other game there was also a class called this so it should work this way”. Thieves have the potential to excellently fill roles beyond “high damage against a single target”, denying that is defeatist and a statement of immalleability concerning your profession. Everyone has a right to pursue their preferred play style to the best of their ability, but the second that becomes “change the game because my play style is the only way to play” it becomes selfish.

Excuse me but if you slapped on clerics armour and tried to go full support it wouldnt be viable even going full shadow arts. Additionally if a guardian tried to go full glass cannon it wouldnt be able to match the damage output of a glass cannon warrior. So there is the ability to play the class however you like but you will be a kitten and not able to compete with other classes that were designed for a certain role in mind. Denying this and calling for nerfs on a class because it is doing what it was designed to do is very selfish. I see the majority do not want this nerf. The class should be retweaked and given better traits to be able to fulfill other roles effectivley and buffed in that regard without anymore nerfs especially to backstab which is a signiture move i every rpg ever made. If anet didnt want this than they should of just had one class in the game and you could spec it however you wanted it. There are reasons classes have themes and descriptions to them. Why dont you open character creation and read Anets description of the thief class.

Combo needs to be broken up so it takes more seconds to do the same thing/damage

That is all

There are no doubt people in this thread that want

a. Backstab to remain over powered
b. People Who want it to be made utterly useless
c. People who just want the obvious broken skill combo to be fixed

Unfortunatley there are more As and Bs in this thread than C’s

Webley.1295:

Combo needs to be broken up so it takes more seconds to do the same thing/damage

in my opinion, sorta. it’s the CnD→mug part that seems to be the most problematic about it all. the backstab itself is fine, despite catching a ton of the blame. remove the ability to cast mug in the middle of CnD, and lower the damage of mug by about 50%, and i think most people would be fine with it. possibly even remove the vulnerability stacks from CnD, but only if necessary.

then again, i think if they just made armor have a bit better damage mitigation in general, everyone would be happy. it would be a global buff to all characters, instead of a nerf to a specific ability to one class. which tends to lead to far less complaints if presented that way. plus, it would give everyone better survivability in PvE too. everyone wins.

remove the ability to cast mug in the middle of CnD

That’s fine as long as it is a change to that mechanic everywhere that it is available, not just these specific skills.

lower the damage of mug by about 50%

The damage coefficient at extreme levels of stats, maybe. It’s already not that big of a hit with anything but the most extreme of fringe cases.

possibly even remove the vulnerability stacks from CnD, but only if necessary.

No, that’s not needed at all. Thieves don’t have a lot of vulnerability available, and it fits this skill quite nicely.

I’m actually for steal interrupting casting. That is the only think I would find about backstab that truly needs a nerf. I AM AGAINST nerfing raw damage itself, as I feel as if by doing this thieves would take a huge hit in general.