Guild Wars 2

PROTIP: Please do not use this post as an opportunity to regale myself and your fellow readers with tales of how Sword Dagger still works great for you as you effortlessly dispatch up-levels in the eternal battlegrounds, or mercilessly crush hot-join hero’s across the nation. I am not saying Sword Dagger can’t be played, only that it isn’t up to par with Dagger Pistol for tpvp.

I don’t understand this patch. What were you thinking Carl?
Acrobatics Sword Dagger was the last thief build to compete with Dagger Pistol for usage in competitive tpvp.

How was it able to compete? Acro S/D provided good synergy with condition and cele heavy comps due to its high mobility, survivability and utility.
Some of the jobs it excelled with, including but not limited to:

+1ing fights with a 3 point comp

Peeling for your team’s DPS

Being very difficult to focus down

Harassing targets with boon strips and immobs

Fighting an extremely strong 2v2 especially with a d/d ele.

Hence Magic Toker playing S/D Acro on Abjured’s old comp
( 2 ele 1 necro 1 thief 1 engie )

But those days have passed, Acrobatics is weak now

ArenaNets Balance Team’s intention was to make Acrobatics more skill based by providing vigor on successful evade, which would punish dodge spamming. However the trait line they devised is half baked and full of holes.

What they should have done was change feline grace to only reward its 15 endurance return on successful dodge, and endless stamina should have been an 100% increase for a total of 100% vigor potency This would have fixed the dodge spamming issue without damaging the line irreparably. Where we had 80% vigor uptime at 100% potency and 15 endurance restored per dodge, we now only have vigor, and while it’s 100% uptime, the potency is only 75% and we no longer gain endurance on dodge.

Unfortunately our other two options for traitlines aren’t much better, ( this assumes you are already taking 6 in deadly arts and 6 in trickery which you really should be for PvP )

Critical Strikes is too glassy without Dagger Pistol stealth

The issue with S/D on Critical Strikes is that it simply lacks the survivability to do the job it was intended to. There was a time about a year ago when Critical strikes could be run on Sword Dagger however that was back in the days of OP Lyssa runes and instant cast infiltrator return.

Shadow arts lacks synergy with Sword Dagger

With Shadow Arts Sword Dagger just doesn’t pair well with the traitlines intended use which is stealth. Sword Dagger’s survivability focuses on well timed evades and good positioning using infiltrators strike. Not so much hiding in stealth.
This being said the old 20606 build was actually fairly strong for WvW thieves who would take blind on stealth because they could use their cloak and dagger as a blind. However with an increased reveal time in pvp and lack of blind on stealth due to its competition with shadows rejuvenation it is extremely unlikely that we will see any competitive use of sword dagger on 60606.

In conclusion, It is unlikely we will see Sword Dagger played on any competitive team. ArenaNet neglects to realize how their changes detract from build diversity, especially in the most competitive aspect of the game.

All we can do now is pray our new specialization revives old weapon sets as well as introduces a new one.

It’s Karl* with a “K”. Show the man some respect.

its friggin hard admitting this but kitten, my s/d thief doesnt thrill anymore. it certainly feels like we are being nudged in the cheese d/p direction

Amonatory.2453:

This post pretty much sums it all up. But I don’t expect them to even change the slightest thing.

They might if we cry enough. That’s how we got here in the first place.

Kageseigi.2150:

Say goodbye to sword/dagger, yet shortbow is still ok? Interesting.

No thank you, the nerf to Acrobatics just means I don’t have to choose between it and Trickery.

Besides, the change happened two days ago. It would be premature to set anything in stone right now, especially burying a weapon set due to a reduction in vigor. There are new tricks to be discovered and learned.

you were choosing between acro and trickery? thanks for letting us know not to take your opinion seriously

alchemyst.2165:

Amonatory.2453:

This post pretty much sums it all up. But I don’t expect them to even change the slightest thing.

They might if we cry enough. That’s how we got here in the first place.

This play was well done

There should be another meta-shift/balance update upon release of the expansion. And I would guess and hope one after the expansion.

Sooooo… don’t get too cozy or irritated.

Basically, in September is the real time to cry…

Agreed.

Even in the weeks before the patch Acro S/D had already been pushed out of pvp by Panic Strike D/P. Panic Strike D/P had a much higher/more reliable burst, more team stealth, and the ability to consistently finish targets. Vamp runes also made D/P much easier because the mist + last refuge made it so you could always get out of a team fight. The only thing lost by going DA over Acro was some mobility but Shortbow made up for that out of combat.

So for the patch Anet decides to buff Panic Strike D/P by giving it access to SA without losing much damage and nerf Acro S/D by gutting Feline Grace. They improved the already stronger build while nerfing the set that was struggling to be relevant in the meta.

After playing around with a few builds and trait setups, any S/D build is outperformed by the same traits but with D/P. The vigor upgrade and the new Feline Grace are barely noticeable in fights. Anet should either restore Feline Grace or follow the changes that you suggested while nerfing some of the new traits in Acro. Then maybe it can compete with D/P again.

I’m running d/d burst with trickery cs and da…

Inf signet, assassin signet And shadow step…

Shadow refuge is worthless now…

Problem with this build is that it is negated by passive abilities like end pain, necro has two passives to stop burst, engi has one, etc.

So really at high level play I don’t see thief viable. Fun in hot joins tho….

Cele warrior is awesome and so is fear necro….

Kageseigi.2150:

Anonymouse.4760:

The players who liked to use S/D competitively in pvp aren’t jumping for joy about this patch.

edit : " The new acro line is great against cc " i loled reading this considering the whole point of the trait line was supposed to be don’t get hit in the first place. Perhaps critical strikes suites you better after all.

I’m not saying anybody is overjoyed at the nerf to Acro. But I am saying that what is done is done. Unless Anet changes it, the Acro dodges are lost. Would I like them back? Yes. I’m not counting on it to happen, though. It has become a situation of “adapt or die.”

But is that the death knell of Sword/Dagger? I think it’s too early to say that. Will it overtake Pistol/Dagger at high levels? I doubt it seriously. But it wasn’t going to before either. Does it mean that the Sword/Dagger is no longer effective? Of course not. It just can’t be used in the same style it was.

The new Acro line is somewhat contradictory. On one hand, it rewards more skillful use of dodging/evading to avoid getting hit, but even that reward is inferior to the ability that the old line gave you by default. On the other hand, it gives you tools to escape times when you do get hit.

So yes, Sword/Dagger must take on a transformation of style now. Because Critical Strikes suites me better than the new Acro, perhaps I suit the new Sword/Dagger style better also.

It is what it is. No more, no less.

One thing I have discovered, however, is running glassier builds without reliance on Acrobatics or Shadow Arts leads to improvement as a player. Eventually, I’ll be able to survive and thrive with the current level of damage output that the patch brought while using the Assassin amulet. I’m not there yet, but I’ll get there.

yes playing crit strikes sd means you can faceroll on your keyboard and kill things without much mechanical skill and/or matchup knowledge, every good sd thief knows that. is it viable in top tier pvp? no, or you’d have seen it. in the months leading up to the most recent patch I never saw a single sd thief in a tournament, acro or otherwise. i’m sure playing sd crit strikes with assassins amulet will develop you sooo much as a player surely I will be seeing you winning esls sooner or later bud.

Justin Synth.5604:

So for the patch Anet decides to buff Panic Strike D/P by giving it access to SA without losing much damage and nerf Acro S/D by gutting Feline Grace. They improved the already stronger build while nerfing the set that was struggling to be relevant in the meta.

THIS ^^^

Anonymouse.4760:

ArenaNets Balance Team’s intention was to make Acrobatics more skill based by providing vigor on successful evade, which would punish dodge spamming. However the trait line they devised is half baked and full of holes.

What they should have done was change feline grace to only reward its 15 endurance return on successful dodge, and endless stamina should have been an 100% increase for a total of 100% vigor potency This would have fixed the dodge spamming issue without damaging the line irrepairably. Where we had 80% vigor uptime at 100% potency and 15 endurance restored per dodge, we now only have vigor, and while it’s 100% uptime, the potency is only 75% and we no longer gain endurance on dodge.

^^ THIS THIS THIS ^^ MORE OF THIS

Yeah, i have been trying to make it work during the past days but can’t, it just feels weak.

Acro is pretty kittenty at the moment, especially against all the condi spam. Guarded initiation looks like a good trait on first glance, but you are never above the 90% hp when you actually need to get rid of them.

So then you pretty much have to go shadow arts, and i hate cloak’n’dagger. Against idiots it works well but is painful to use against good players. At least with d/p you don’t have to rely on your enemies actions and you can enter stealth when you want to.

Okay, I agree with most of what OP said – but I have to say S/D does have some synergy with SA due to having access to CnD, allowing to make use of all the condi clear options + regeneration options, the problem is it doesn’t have as much synergy as D/D or especially D/P due to more burst on backstab and even easier access to stealth to make up for the lack of damage from taking SA over CS. And honestly D/P with DA/SA/Trickery is probably the most easy-mode thing thieves have.

S/P has absolutely no synergy with SA where as S/D at least has some, that’s the only thing I honestly disagreed with you on OP. Everything else though, absolutely right.

Meanwhile – condi thieves, hahaha. Not only is S/D suffering but … lololol. With how high damage is and nerfs to things like shortbow (one of our previous condi options) our condi damage has become pretty much a joke. I mean we have cleaner access to leeching venoms and what made it decent, but overall … it just feels inferior to burst thief damage / damage in general.

Finally, Carl “with a K” doesn’t care enough about thieves and their traits to get them right, why should we get his name right? (Potent Poisons? Joke-tier. Dagger Training? More joke tier garbage filler “options” if you want to kitten yourself. Same with what Guarded Initiation turned into.)

Jesiah.2457:

Meanwhile – condi thieves, hahaha. Not only is S/D suffering but … lololol. With how high damage is and nerfs to things like shortbow (one of our previous condi options) our condi damage has become pretty much a joke. I mean we have cleaner access to leeching venoms and what made it decent, but overall … it just feels inferior to burst thief damage / damage in general.

Well that’s kind of the point of condi, gradually taking people down to 0 with attrition, not burst. If anything this is actually a sign of more balance (even though other condi classes can burst people in seconds, which should not be a thing).

Jesiah.2457:

Finally, Carl “with a K” doesn’t care enough about thieves and their traits to get them right, why should we get his name right? (Potent Poisons? Joke-tier. Dagger Training? More joke tier garbage filler “options” if you want to kitten yourself. Same with what Guarded Initiation turned into.)

I do agree that these traits are trying to push thief into something that won’t be viable. Hybrid D/D thief just won’t work. Turn the poison traits in DA into different inhibiting conditions, or give raw damage boost when affected by poison, etc. Also, they still haven’t made Death Blossom power, but let’s not get into that. The point is that ANet doesn’t know what they’re doing with thief, and it seems like they just don’t care.

My suggestion for Acro: As some people said before, make feline grace restore 15 endurance on a successful evade. Increase endless stamina to a total of 100%. Maybe even give us a better condi removal option.

Anet, please listen and make the right decisions with thief.

Very good post!

I can’t believe Anet. With one stroke, they ruined S/D, P/P and P/D. All that is left is D/P, the cheesiest weapon set ever. And I do not enjoy playing that.

I invested so much time and effort into gearing up my thief with all ascended gear and legendaries. Now I don’t want to play her anymore. This sucks.

kek lol lmao rofl huehuehue dolanpls

alchemyst.2165:

My suggestion for Acro: As some people said before, make feline grace restore 15 endurance on a successful evade. Increase endless stamina to a total of 100%. Maybe even give us a better condi removal option.

Anet, please listen and make the right decisions with thief.

SIGN!

Tanto.3067:

alchemyst.2165:

My suggestion for Acro: As some people said before, make feline grace restore 15 endurance on a successful evade. Increase endless stamina to a total of 100%. Maybe even give us a better condi removal option.

Anet, please listen and make the right decisions with thief.

SIGN!

And then we would be back to square 1. Except this time we won’t have good condi removal in SA to fall back on.

So we would be even worse off. Hard to imagine but it’s true. lol

Acros dead on arrival and needs a complete overhaul. Top to Bottom. 1 or 2 tweaks here and there isn’t going to cut it. Currently we dodge like Dr. Rick Marshall in Land of The Lost.

Hehehe, now I can get back to mowing down those used to be evade spammers with my longbow!

I might even pickup a lashtail devourer and let them pewpew too!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_Barbs

Odyssey.2613:

Tanto.3067:

alchemyst.2165:

My suggestion for Acro: As some people said before, make feline grace restore 15 endurance on a successful evade. Increase endless stamina to a total of 100%. Maybe even give us a better condi removal option.

Anet, please listen and make the right decisions with thief.

SIGN!

And then we would be back to square 1. Except this time we won’t have good condi removal in SA to fall back on.

So we would be even worse off. Hard to imagine but it’s true. lol

Acros dead on arrival and needs a complete overhaul. Top to Bottom. 1 or 2 tweaks here and there isn’t going to cut it. Currently we dodge like Dr. Rick Marshall in Land of The Lost.

Well It wouldn’t be worse off but, here are some more detailed changes I was considering about posting but since this thread got a lot of attention I’ll post them here for you guys to check out — tell me what you think.

1. Feline Grace and Endless Stamina are buffed and combined into one trait, it would now grant vigor on dodge and improve vigor potency to 150% but no more endurance restored on dodge.. If these changes are made I would also recommend increasing the amount of vigor received on successful dodge to 5 seconds but also increase the internal cooldown to 6 seconds. This would allow for two things: The first being that the way the trait functions right now with such a small amount of vigor and low internal cooldown it promotes using your dodges up rapidly in order to maintain vigor uptime ( which if the current potency stays the same ) an acrobatics thief cannot afford to do. Secondly it would allow for more rewarding boonstrip counter play, since you are stripping a bigger amount and the thief would theoretically have to go longer without vigor. Mesmers, I’m thinking of you here.

2. This combination of minor traits would allow fluid strikes to be restored or another new minor trait ⁵ that was on par with shadows resilience to be introduced. My suggestion would be Pain Response as the new minor ⁵ and replace its spot in the adept tree with Power Of Inertia ( which would also keep might stacking builds around. ) since the new acrobatics survivability is so dependent on vigor this would allow thieves to take vigorous recovery and still have adequate condition cleanse.

3. Swindler’s Equilibrium is made a Grandmaster in place of “Don’t Stop” or “Assassin’s Reward” so that a thief could take for example, Swindler’s Equilibrium and Hard to Catch.

4. Guarded Initiation: This trait needs to be completely reworked. It should function by granting resistance when struck while your health is below 75% Guarded Initiation would be synergistic with a different trait called Pain Response so that when you were hit at or below 75% you’d be cleansed of damaging conditions and receive 5 seconds of resistance. If these changes were made Guarded Initiation could be used over Hard To Catch. The only issue with this is that it would only be effective if you had pain response. Therefore I don’t recommend this change unless also following suggestions #2 and #3 of making Pain Response the ⁵ minor trait AND making Swindler’s Equilibrium grandmaster because as I said before Guarded Initiation and Hard To Catch should never be picked over Swindler’s as a sword thief.

If all these changes were made we would have an adequate amount of dodges, decent condition cleanse, and still be able to play with swindler’s equilibrium — It adds up to be a trait line that can compete with shadow arts or critical strikes for viability, and brings back that old s/d play style we’ve grown to love with skill based dodges and more counterplay.

Justine.6351:

Hehehe, now I can get back to mowing down those used to be evade spammers with my longbow!

I might even pickup a lashtail devourer and let them pewpew too!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_Barbs

it would be fun if there were no evades or reflects in this game it’s pretty op that my skillful 1 spam can be avoided honestly. i don’t think the damage on rapid fire is high enough either dude

Heres the math on Feline Grace and Endless stamina done by Maugetarr.6823

“Yeah, it wouldn’t really feel different if you’re already in trickery. With bountiful theft and SoH, you already have 50% uptime on vigor. Assuming you start from 0 endurance, you’ll recharge about 3 dodges in the CD of steal or 130 endurance total. With endless stamina alone, you get 142 endurance. Since you start with 0 endurance in this example, the most you could activate FG is 3 times, keeping vigor up for 16 seconds receiving a total of 165 endurance in the 21 second period. Assuming you do everything perfectly, feline grace and endless stamina result in only 35 more endurance every 21 seconds.”

I agree they messed up with the acrobatics line, FG is basically useless but imo s/d is even better now obviously not in the meta(and it wasn’t in the cele meta actually), it also does all you say it doesn’t, +1, hard to kill, peeling dps.

I agree they need to buff acro line but this is too much qq, I mean all these “s/d cry threads” are about the dodges we lost LOL.

no more free dodges s/d still useful, it’s not meta(it wasn’t in cele meta either), if you want to play it then play it for fun if you want to win play d/p like it was in cele meta.

buff acro line, dodges are fine.

I’m sorry for my horrid English grammar.

Elxdark.9702:

I agree they messed up with the acrobatics line, FG is basically useless but imo s/d is even better now obviously not in the meta(and it wasn’t in the cele meta actually), it also does all you say it doesn’t, +1, hard to kill, peeling dps.

I agree they need to buff acro line but this is too much qq, I mean all these “s/d cry threads” are about the dodges we lost LOL.

no more free dodges s/d still useful, it’s not meta(it wasn’t in cele meta either), if you want to play it then play it for fun if you want to win play d/p like it was in cele meta.

buff acro line, dodges are fine.

I’m sorry for my horrid English grammar.

I’m guessing you didn’t read my thread very thoroughly, or maybe you just didn’t understand, because right at the start I talk about how Abjured ( thats the number 1 tpvp team in NA btw ) used sword dagger in the cele meta. So yeah, I would say it was in the cele meta. They happened to win the world tournament series with it after all.
I wouldn’t recommend posting on topics you’re clueless about.

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

I agree they messed up with the acrobatics line, FG is basically useless but imo s/d is even better now obviously not in the meta(and it wasn’t in the cele meta actually), it also does all you say it doesn’t, +1, hard to kill, peeling dps.

I agree they need to buff acro line but this is too much qq, I mean all these “s/d cry threads” are about the dodges we lost LOL.

no more free dodges s/d still useful, it’s not meta(it wasn’t in cele meta either), if you want to play it then play it for fun if you want to win play d/p like it was in cele meta.

buff acro line, dodges are fine.

I’m sorry for my horrid English grammar.

I’m guessing you didn’t read my thread very thoroughly, or maybe you just didn’t understand, because right at the start I talk about how Abjured ( thats the number 1 tpvp team in NA btw ) used sword dagger in the cele meta. So yeah, I would say it was in the cele meta. They happened to win the world tournament series with it after all.
I wouldn’t recommend posting on topics you’re clueless about.

woah dude but that was like tooooooo loooong ago, then in the 2nd WTS they got rekt by a d/p thief.

I’ll say this again but if you played around your dodges then it’s your own problem frand.

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

I agree they messed up with the acrobatics line, FG is basically useless but imo s/d is even better now obviously not in the meta(and it wasn’t in the cele meta actually), it also does all you say it doesn’t, +1, hard to kill, peeling dps.

I agree they need to buff acro line but this is too much qq, I mean all these “s/d cry threads” are about the dodges we lost LOL.

no more free dodges s/d still useful, it’s not meta(it wasn’t in cele meta either), if you want to play it then play it for fun if you want to win play d/p like it was in cele meta.

buff acro line, dodges are fine.

I’m sorry for my horrid English grammar.

I’m guessing you didn’t read my thread very thoroughly, or maybe you just didn’t understand, because right at the start I talk about how Abjured ( thats the number 1 tpvp team in NA btw ) used sword dagger in the cele meta. So yeah, I would say it was in the cele meta. They happened to win the world tournament series with it after all.
I wouldn’t recommend posting on topics you’re clueless about.

woah dude but that was like tooooooo loooong ago, then in the 2nd WTS they got rekt by a d/p thief.

I’ll say this again but if you played around your dodges then it’s your own problem frand.

Yea, the first WTS was the cele meta, thats why they changed their comp after the meta shifted. three zerks instead of one + a carrion.

heyeheyehey without insults buddie, calm your kittens.

The second WTS was still cele meta as far as I know.

Elxdark.9702:

heyeheyehey without insults buddie, calm your kittens.

The second WTS was still cele meta as far as I know.

You don’t get it. they lost BECAUSE it wasn’t a cele meta anymore — that’s why they changed their comp. . .

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

heyeheyehey without insults buddie, calm your kittens.

The second WTS was still cele meta as far as I know.

You don’t get it. they lost BECAUSE it wasn’t a cele meta anymore — that’s why they changed their comp. . .

orng won 4-0.

comp?
shoutbow warrior(cele)
d/d ele(cele)
engi(cele)
thief(zerker)
guardian(zerker)

wut

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

heyeheyehey without insults buddie, calm your kittens.

The second WTS was still cele meta as far as I know.

You don’t get it. they lost BECAUSE it wasn’t a cele meta anymore — that’s why they changed their comp. . .

orng won 4-0.

comp?
shoutbow warrior(cele)
d/d ele(cele)
engi(cele)
thief(zerker)
guardian(zerker)

wut

Abjured’s current comp:

Necro ( Zerker )
Thief ( Zerker )
Medi Guard ( Zerker )
Shoutbow ( Celestial )
Engineer ( Celestial )

in NA the cele meta ended.
It will take awhile to see what the new one is now.

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

heyeheyehey without insults buddie, calm your kittens.

The second WTS was still cele meta as far as I know.

You don’t get it. they lost BECAUSE it wasn’t a cele meta anymore — that’s why they changed their comp. . .

orng won 4-0.

comp?
shoutbow warrior(cele)
d/d ele(cele)
engi(cele)
thief(zerker)
guardian(zerker)

wut

Abjured’s current comp:

Necro ( Zerker )
Thief ( Zerker )
Medi Guard ( Zerker )
Shoutbow ( Celestial )
Engineer ( Celestial )

in NA the cele meta ended.

lol k whatever, dude this became boring.

glhf.

RIP SD

Even with the changes you proposed though, I still don’t think it would compete with all the damage flying around now. It really needs something else to be worth taking over DP.

lollasaurus.1457:

RIP SD

Even with the changes you proposed though, I still don’t think it would compete with all the damage flying around now. It really needs something else to be worth taking over DP.

Maybe, I think had they not nerfed feline grace and fluid strikes that perhaps with Swindler’s Equilibrium and the changed Improvisation trait it could have pushed itself back into the meta.

glad people are speaking up for the loss of sd, the only TRUE form of thief play style in my opinion. It goes so well with a real thief players mentality of taking no advantages, and focusing on mechanics. We’ll miss you and thanks for speaking up, but the devs won’t listen.

Anonymouse.4760:

1. Feline Grace and Endless Stamina are buffed and combined into one trait, it would now grant vigor on dodge and improve vigor potency to 150% but no more endurance restored on dodge.. If these changes are made I would also recommend increasing the amount of vigor received on successful dodge to 5 seconds but also increase the internal cooldown to 6 seconds. This would allow for two things: The first being that the way the trait functions right now with such a small amount of vigor and low internal cooldown it promotes using your dodges up rapidly in order to maintain vigor uptime ( which if the current potency stays the same ) an acrobatics thief cannot afford to do. Secondly it would allow for more rewarding boonstrip counter play, since you are stripping a bigger amount and the thief would theoretically have to go longer without vigor. Mesmers, I’m thinking of you here.

This is interesting, but it runs against how i always thought thief fights should go. I liked the old FG because it allowed you to front load an extra dodge and had good return in protracted fights even without vigor (1 dodge every 7 seconds without it). This let it be useful for both bursty and brawler style combat (as much as thief can be a brawler at least). Your change still eliminates the initial extra dodge and with how short fights seem to be going with all the damage flying around, we need that front end back. I would leave ES where it is and replace FG entirely with something that gave you back 5 endurance on a crit with 1 second icd. This would mean you could push your endurance regen up to 13.75, but only if you stay aggressive. This allows for blocks, blinds, range, and evades to successfully counter play the thief. It also limits dodge spamming without really attacking. While this doesn’t quite give back the upfront dodges we had either, I think it’s a decent balance.

2. This combination of minor traits would allow fluid strikes to be restored or another new minor trait ⁵ that was on par with shadows resilience to be introduced. My suggestion would be Pain Response as the new minor ⁵ and replace its spot in the adept tree with Power Of Inertia ( which would also keep might stacking builds around. ) since the new acrobatics survivability is so dependent on vigor this would allow thieves to take vigorous recovery and still have adequate condition cleanse.

Interesting, but I dislike skills that operate on getting hit (pain response and HtC), and i wanted to leave the others split anyway. I’ll address more condi removal later.

3. Swindler’s Equilibrium is made a Grandmaster in place of “Don’t Stop” or “Assassin’s Reward” so that a thief could take for example, Swindler’s Equilibrium and Hard to Catch.

I like this. I can’t remember what tier other professions’ movement impairing traits were put in, but changing SE for DS seems fine to me.

4. Guarded Initiation: This trait needs to be completely reworked. It should function by granting resistance when struck while your health is below 75% Guarded Initiation would be synergistic with a different trait called Pain Response so that when you were hit at or below 75% you’d be cleansed of damaging conditions and receive 5 seconds of resistance. If these changes were made Guarded Initiation could be used over Hard To Catch. The only issue with this is that it would only be effective if you had pain response. Therefore I don’t recommend this change unless also following suggestions #2 and #3 of making Pain Response the ⁵ minor trait AND making Swindler’s Equilibrium grandmaster because as I said before Guarded Initiation and Hard To Catch should never be picked over Swindler’s as a sword thief.

This is an alright change. As I said, I don’t like traits that trigger on getting hit because it takes control away from the player. If i were going to put condi removal in the acro line, I would make upper hand remove a condi on successful dodge while still having the initiative regen and the same icd. This would actually make it a hard decision between where SE should be moved and a solid condi removal in the line.

If all these changes were made we would have an adequate amount of dodges, decent condition cleanse, and still be able to play with swindler’s equilibrium — It adds up to be a trait line that can compete with shadow arts or critical strikes for viability, and brings back that old s/d play style we’ve grown to love with skill based dodges and more counterplay.

I like the discussion about how we could get somewhere between where we were and where we are now.

Edit: Thought about it for a little after and wanted to change one small thing: endless stamina should be rolled into the current feline grace, and fluid strikes can return as the trait I suggested with endurance on crit.

Maugetarr.6823:

This is interesting, but it runs against how i always thought thief fights should go. I liked the old FG because it allowed you to front load an extra dodge and had good return in protracted fights even without vigor (1 dodge every 7 seconds without it). This let it be useful for both bursty and brawler style combat (as much as thief can be a brawler at least). Your change still eliminates the initial extra dodge and with how short fights seem to be going with all the damage flying around, we need that front end back. I would leave ES where it is and replace FG entirely with something that gave you back 5 endurance on a crit with 1 second icd. This would mean you could push your endurance regen up to 13.75, but only if you stay aggressive. This allows for blocks, blinds, range, and evades to successfully counter play the thief. It also limits dodge spamming without really attacking. While this doesn’t quite give back the upfront dodges we had either, I think it’s a decent balance. [/quote]

I really like this concept, but after the vigor nerf we’d need a better endurance return to bring Acrobatics closer to where it was post patch. I also think having a higher endurance return on a higher ICD would be more reliable then 5 on a 1 second icd.

edit: higher, not lower ICD (lol)

so sense when does withdraw have a 18 sec cool down …..

correct me if I am wrong but did it not use to be 15 sec cool down ?

goodbye to my favorite weapon set for more than a year. it maybe not have been the ultimate to win weapon specially compared to stealth stacks but dodging through all the attacks after a short hit and run via blink on this weapon was quite the rush. arenanet…y u so out of touch?

Anonymouse.4760:

Maugetarr.6823:

This is interesting, but it runs against how i always thought thief fights should go. I liked the old FG because it allowed you to front load an extra dodge and had good return in protracted fights even without vigor (1 dodge every 7 seconds without it). This let it be useful for both bursty and brawler style combat (as much as thief can be a brawler at least). Your change still eliminates the initial extra dodge and with how short fights seem to be going with all the damage flying around, we need that front end back. I would leave ES where it is and replace FG entirely with something that gave you back 5 endurance on a crit with 1 second icd. This would mean you could push your endurance regen up to 13.75, but only if you stay aggressive. This allows for blocks, blinds, range, and evades to successfully counter play the thief. It also limits dodge spamming without really attacking. While this doesn’t quite give back the upfront dodges we had either, I think it’s a decent balance.

I really like this concept, but after the vigor nerf we’d need a better endurance return to bring Acrobatics closer to where it was post patch. I also think having a higher endurance return on a higher ICD would be more reliable then 5 on a 1 second icd.

edit: higher, not lower ICD (lol)

Yeah, more on a higher CD would be reliable, but I feel an aggressive thief should be rewarded more. As far as (5) more endurance per second (theoretical max), when you combine that with ES+FG, you could get a high enough regen for a dodge every 3.63 seconds, so the value seemed fair in my mind. In practice, it would probably be an average of the max and the min (a little over 4.5 seconds) and fluctuate depending on player dodging skill and aggressiveness. SA has always promoted a bit more of a sit back and watch defense while acro has been a forward moving defense. I’d like to keep that going.

caveman.5840:

so sense when does withdraw have a 18 sec cool down …..

correct me if I am wrong but did it not use to be 15 sec cool down ?

You are correct. It became a trick this patch so it can be traited back down to 14.5 seconds.

Maugetarr.6823:

Anonymouse.4760:

Maugetarr.6823:

This is interesting, but it runs against how i always thought thief fights should go. I liked the old FG because it allowed you to front load an extra dodge and had good return in protracted fights even without vigor (1 dodge every 7 seconds without it). This let it be useful for both bursty and brawler style combat (as much as thief can be a brawler at least). Your change still eliminates the initial extra dodge and with how short fights seem to be going with all the damage flying around, we need that front end back. I would leave ES where it is and replace FG entirely with something that gave you back 5 endurance on a crit with 1 second icd. This would mean you could push your endurance regen up to 13.75, but only if you stay aggressive. This allows for blocks, blinds, range, and evades to successfully counter play the thief. It also limits dodge spamming without really attacking. While this doesn’t quite give back the upfront dodges we had either, I think it’s a decent balance.

I really like this concept, but after the vigor nerf we’d need a better endurance return to bring Acrobatics closer to where it was post patch. I also think having a higher endurance return on a higher ICD would be more reliable then 5 on a 1 second icd.

edit: higher, not lower ICD (lol)

Yeah, more on a higher CD would be reliable, but I feel an aggressive thief should be rewarded more. As far as (5) more endurance per second (theoretical max), when you combine that with ES+FG, you could get a high enough regen for a dodge every 3.63 seconds, so the value seemed fair in my mind. In practice, it would probably be an average of the max and the min (a little over 4.5 seconds) and fluctuate depending on player dodging skill and aggressiveness. SA has always promoted a bit more of a sit back and watch defense while acro has been a forward moving defense. I’d like to keep that going.

Agreed, actively dodging attacks will always be a more active play style than sitting in stealth watching shadow rejuvenation bring your HP back to up to full. However S/D acro was already an extremely active weapon set in PvP since there is less damage, and more celestial classes. Here there would be less of a need for a trait that motivates thieves to maintain pressure — and they would miss the benefits of being able to keep endurance up while on the run. In WvW however it’s a completely different story, because of the insanely high damage with food and min maxed gear ascended gear — thieves could just hit and run with S/D acro. Burst and retreat, dodging about until they are ready to burst again which was not acro’s intended usage. This is where an endurance return on hit would root out passive play styles.
I think we’d need to find a balance between the two, enough survivability for those in PvP being trained down, and a system that rewards active and consistent gameplay for WvW.
How could this be accomplished? Thoughts?

Zaerah.1630:

Yeah, i have been trying to make it work during the past days but can’t, it just feels weak.

Acro is pretty kittenty at the moment, especially against all the condi spam. Guarded initiation looks like a good trait on first glance, but you are never above the 90% hp when you actually need to get rid of them.

So then you pretty much have to go shadow arts, and i hate cloak’n’dagger. Against idiots it works well but is painful to use against good players. At least with d/p you don’t have to rely on your enemies actions and you can enter stealth when you want to.

I thought GI might be better than it looked but it is worse. It only removes 1 of those condition when Over 90 percent. Given how hard it to have 90 percent health using the acro line , I would rather just deal with that one condition but letting it run down.

Anonymouse.4760:

I think we’d need to find a balance between the two, enough survivability for those in PvP being trained down, and a system that rewards active and consistent gameplay for WvW.
How could this be accomplished? Thoughts?

This is why ascended gear was a HUGE mistake. The plateau of stats from gear in pve/wvw should be the same given by pvp amulets (i.e.: full zerker ascended gear should give the same amount of stats of the zerker amulet).

Surely we’ll have some higher stats due to food/utils, but not THAT much higher than actually are.

No one can possibly balance a game around a cap of stats (pvp) and pretending that it could work with a higher cap (wvw+food/utils).

They should give up and bring down the stats in pve, admitting it was a mistake, aligning the ascended stats to the pvp amulets stats. Then they can go on in balancing the rest (skills/traits/etc.).

Anonymouse.4760:

Maugetarr.6823:

Anonymouse.4760:

Maugetarr.6823:

This is interesting, but it runs against how i always thought thief fights should go. I liked the old FG because it allowed you to front load an extra dodge and had good return in protracted fights even without vigor (1 dodge every 7 seconds without it). This let it be useful for both bursty and brawler style combat (as much as thief can be a brawler at least). Your change still eliminates the initial extra dodge and with how short fights seem to be going with all the damage flying around, we need that front end back. I would leave ES where it is and replace FG entirely with something that gave you back 5 endurance on a crit with 1 second icd. This would mean you could push your endurance regen up to 13.75, but only if you stay aggressive. This allows for blocks, blinds, range, and evades to successfully counter play the thief. It also limits dodge spamming without really attacking. While this doesn’t quite give back the upfront dodges we had either, I think it’s a decent balance.

I really like this concept, but after the vigor nerf we’d need a better endurance return to bring Acrobatics closer to where it was post patch. I also think having a higher endurance return on a higher ICD would be more reliable then 5 on a 1 second icd.

edit: higher, not lower ICD (lol)

Yeah, more on a higher CD would be reliable, but I feel an aggressive thief should be rewarded more. As far as (5) more endurance per second (theoretical max), when you combine that with ES+FG, you could get a high enough regen for a dodge every 3.63 seconds, so the value seemed fair in my mind. In practice, it would probably be an average of the max and the min (a little over 4.5 seconds) and fluctuate depending on player dodging skill and aggressiveness. SA has always promoted a bit more of a sit back and watch defense while acro has been a forward moving defense. I’d like to keep that going.

Agreed, actively dodging attacks will always be a more active play style than sitting in stealth watching shadow rejuvenation bring your HP back to up to full. However S/D acro was already an extremely active weapon set in PvP since there is less damage, and more celestial classes. Here there would be less of a need for a trait that motivates thieves to maintain pressure — and they would miss the benefits of being able to keep endurance up while on the run. In WvW however it’s a completely different story, because of the insanely high damage with food and min maxed gear ascended gear — thieves could just hit and run with S/D acro. Burst and retreat, dodging about until they are ready to burst again which was not acro’s intended usage. This is where an endurance return on hit would root out passive play styles.
I think we’d need to find a balance between the two, enough survivability for those in PvP being trained down, and a system that rewards active and consistent gameplay for WvW.
How could this be accomplished? Thoughts?

I think it would balance out though because it would cause the thief to switch to shortbow to maintain the benefits of keeping pressure up. I also think though that Quick Pockets needs to reduce weapon swapping to 5 seconds (returning only 1 initiative ). This would allow for better pressure and the ability to flip back and forth between ranged and close combat. I mean, I want some survivability back in the acro line, but I also want the thief to be able to dive into the fray once an opportunity presents itself. The thief should benefit from keeping pressure up even while backing off and be given the tools to do so.

I think S/D would gain back it’s survivability assuming the player is good while shedding the stigma of dodge spamming because they actually have to land something to really see a benefit. If they get behind the 8 ball, they are going to have to IR back out, but hopefully people would recognize that when they lost it was because they failed to counterplay the thief, not because there was just endless evade frames.

(PS this “endless evade frames” statement is not a slight against the pre-nerf S/D thief, it just required a lot of very careful timing to counterplay against them, especially the good ones. This often devolved into “mash 3 moar teef.” If the thief still had a lot of endurance after this change, it would be because they are landing their attacks, not just innately having it)

Edit: Remember also that I think upper hand should have a condi removal on it, so the more pressure you put on someone, the more defense you also start to build up. The condi removal would allow them to go toe to toe with some of the celestial builds if they can keep up their aggression.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

I think it would balance out though because it would cause the thief to switch to shortbow to maintain the benefits of keeping pressure up. I also think though that Quick Pockets needs to reduce weapon swapping to 5 seconds (returning only 1 initiative ). This would allow for better pressure and the ability to flip back and forth between ranged and close combat. I mean, I want some survivability back in the acro line, but I also want the thief to be able to dive into the fray once an opportunity presents itself. The thief should benefit from keeping pressure up even while backing off and be given the tools to do so.

Edit: Remember also that I think upper hand should have a condi removal on it, so the more pressure you put on someone, the more defense you also start to build up. The condi removal would allow them to go toe to toe with some of the celestial builds if they can keep up their aggression.

ANONYMOUSE.4760 (Sorry for the crappy format of this post, still trying to work out how to use only select portions of quotes.)

Whoops, I hadn’t considered the synergy of a condition cleansing upper hand with your proposed FG change. ( 5 endurance per crit 1s ICD ) To actively gain defense through your offense. . . Man is this a great idea

Unfortunately for quick pockets I don’t think theres a trait in the world for thief that could compete with Sleight of Hand for the grandmaster position — It’s utility is unmatched and is the bread and butter of thief in competitive play. I do like your idea for quick pockets but I think the trait itself needs to be somewhere else, though I can’t think of any spot except for perhaps to replace “preparedness” the +3 max initiative minor trait or maybe flanking strikes in the adept tree.

Still though — I think we are focusing too much on the 1v1 aspect of acro, there will be situations where the right response is not fight but flight, and a survivability based line needs to be capable and excel at that as well. . . Maybe with a condi cleanse upon successful evade as you suggested with upper hand would cover that, but I’m a little skeptical. Sounds like we need some ArenaNet test servers of our own Maug

edit: Apparently the opposite of “soft” is kitten.

Did you try to combine:

Rune of the Adventurer
Rune of Energy
Signet of Agility
Hard to Catch
Withdraw
Roll for initiative
Trickster

Can still dodge like crazy while dishing out dmg.
The rhythm is just different than before.

Best regards!

Shinobi.3240:

Did you try to combine:

Rune of the Adventurer
Rune of Energy
Signet of Agility
Hard to Catch
Withdraw
Roll for initiative
Trickster

Can still dodge like crazy while dishing out dmg.
The rhythm is just different than before.

Best regards!

Changing from optimal runes, sigils, traits and utilities just to come a little bit closer to former dodge uptime isn’t the solution we need as that creates a whole new set of problems.
1. Pack runes needed to supplement both power and precision
2. Air / fire runes make up a huge part of damage, what would you do, run double s/d with energy sigils on each? theres a reason nobody plays jumper spec anymore.
3. Was already using signet of agility
4. Hard to catch competes with swindler’s equilibrium — a must have if an s/d thief decided to trait acrobatics
5. Was already using withdraw ( most builds do now a days, even DP )
6. Roll for initiative would take the slot of either shadow refuge or shadow step, both crucial for survivability
7. Trickster? No sane person is going to give up bountiful theft, the only stability and aegis prioritizing boon rip for a 3 second shorter withdraw cooldown and additional 1 condi cleanse.

Thanks but no thanks. No offense — I’m sure that’d work just fine for trolling in obsidian sanctum or something but it’s not going to stand up to level it needs to in any competitive field.

Shinobi.3240:

Did you try to combine:

Rune of the Adventurer
Rune of Energy
Signet of Agility
Hard to Catch
Withdraw
Roll for initiative
Trickster

Can still dodge like crazy while dishing out dmg.
The rhythm is just different than before.

Best regards!

The only thing you need acro for in that list though is HtC. Trickery and CS (for signets of power) are doing a better job of keeping the thief evasive than the line that’s supposed to keep them evasive. That’s a problem.

I have to say, tricks have the potential to be fun, but I think the tricks themselves need to be tweaked to really flesh out a solid build with them.

Reducing Quick pocket’s to 5 seconds base would be extreme when paired with (runes of warrior?)

3 second weapon swap, then add some on swap sigils