Guild Wars 2

AW rear positional 100% armor pen was a good mechanic though. I certainly enjoyed using it and playing against it.

Dat trinket was pretty kitten stupid though. Although I rather enjoyed the no-resist one for my Sorc when pesky WHs popped up with the immunity cooldown. Sumkittenes don’t expect a disarm to go straight their their magic immune. POW.

The whole point of my post (and I admit, I could have been way clearer on this)was to reduce Thief burst (All burst actually, but thief is the class I’m most familiar with) without reducing the ability to kill bunkers.

One of the very obvious and clear fixes for this is to remove PvE crit damage % itemization from WvW. There’s a very broad difference in burst damage between sPvP and WvW, and no small part of it begins with “Berz” and ends with “erker”.

But I sincerely doubt Anet will go that route.

evilapprentice.6379:

The whole point of my post (and I admit, I could have been way clearer on this)was to reduce Thief burst (All burst actually, but thief is the class I’m most familiar with) without reducing the ability to kill bunkers.

Yes of course.

Allowing a Thief to deal damage thru a block is “to reduce Thief burst " eventhough that blocking is 100% damage reduction, thus an effective anti-burst.

In short: I don’t follow your logic.

Besides, in a coordinated attack, a Necro or Mesmer will strip all protection from a target before the rest of the team burst/spike the target to death.

EasymodeX.4062:

AW rear positional 100% armor pen was a good mechanic though. I certainly enjoyed using it and playing against it.

Dat trinket was pretty kitten stupid though. Although I rather enjoyed the no-resist one for my Sorc when pesky WHs popped up with the immunity cooldown. Sumkittenes don’t expect a disarm to go straight their their magic immune. POW.

The whole point of my post (and I admit, I could have been way clearer on this)was to reduce Thief burst (All burst actually, but thief is the class I’m most familiar with) without reducing the ability to kill bunkers.

One of the very obvious and clear fixes for this is to remove PvE crit damage % itemization from WvW. There’s a very broad difference in burst damage between sPvP and WvW, and no small part of it begins with “Berz” and ends with “erker”.

But I sincerely doubt Anet will go that route.

I’m of the opinion that the bigger the PvE / PvP split, the better.

Everyone is supposed to be on equal ground in PvP – same gear choices, same levels, etc…

Things that unbalance WvW and PvE may have absolutely no bearing on PvP. Anet should be balancing based on PvP, or split the abilities across both worlds entirely. I understand that this is alot of work, but its silly to claim you want an Esport on a completely level playing ground, then make changes to PvP abilities based on their WvW performance.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

The whole point of my post (and I admit, I could have been way clearer on this)was to reduce Thief burst (All burst actually, but thief is the class I’m most familiar with) without reducing the ability to kill bunkers.

Yes of course.

Allowing a Thief to deal damage thru a block is “to reduce Thief burst " eventhough that blocking is 100% damage reduction, thus an effective anti-burst.

In short: I don’t follow your logic.

Besides, in a coordinated attack, a Necro or Mesmer will strip all protection from a target before the rest of the team burst/spike the target to death.

Allow me to elaborate (though to be honest, what I’m about to type here exists in this post already in some way shape or form).

Step 1) Reduce thief damage – Mind you, thieves will still have to hit fairly hard (low base HP, medium armor, no protection, no stability, no immune skills), but alter the mechanics that let them hit like trucks in exchange for being as tough as a wet dollar store napkin
Step 2) With their new reduced burst potential, thieves need some way to actually threaten bunkers – My suggestion was to allow some or all of their attacks to penetrate block, with each ability having its own % of block piercing. I’m not suggesting every ability have 100% block penetration..in fact, I mentioned alot of them would probably be very low (just to allow the application of secondary effects through block). The second suggestion (taken from the general tone of the SotG) was more boon stripping/hate. When you combine the 2 (again, in my interpretation), it makes it so that bunkers can’t just throw up all their best boons asap and block whenever they feel like it – they have to try to counterplay the thief a little bit. Should the bunker throw up some short duration boons to try to bait me to waste Init? When should he use his block to ensure I won’t be able to burst him down through it? Can he throw up some important boons then block to get the thief to blow his init pool doing utter kitten damage just to remove the boons?etc, etc, etc…

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m of the opinion that the bigger the PvE / PvP split, the better.

Agreed, but Anet isn’t.

Anet knows two things:

1. To get WvW players to pay any money at the cash shop, they must tie WvW to PvE.

2. PvE content is by its nature repetitive and grindy. Given their semi-broken commitment to avoid massive gearflation (a la WoW), they can’t really add mega tiers of gear every 6 months. As a result, they want to divert PvE players into WvW to occupy their time. Hence they have a second significant reason to keep WvW tied to PvE.

Furthermore, any good change (e.g. using sPvP gear in WvW) would also require changes to other aspects of the system — PvE consumables in WvW, map completion in WvW, karma / not glory in WvW, $ in WvW. Anet’s not going to do that anytime soon.

Edit:

Generally speaking the sPvP / esport notion is a sinking ship at this point. There are so many things against its success atm that I can’t begin to list them.

evilapprentice.6379:

Allow me to elaborate (though to be honest, what I’m about to type here exists in this post already in some way shape or form).

Step 1) Reduce thief damage – Mind you, thieves will still have to hit fairly hard (low base HP, medium armor, no protection, no stability, no immune skills), but alter the mechanics that let them hit like trucks in exchange for being as tough as a wet dollar store napkin

To be honest, the answer to “what I’m about to type here exist in this post already in some way shape or form.”

No.

Step 2) With their new reduced burst potential, thieves need some way to actually threaten bunkers – My suggestion was to allow some or all of their attacks to penetrate block, with each ability having its own % of block piercing. I’m not suggesting every ability have 100% block penetration..in fact, I mentioned alot of them would probably be very low (just to allow the application of secondary effects through block).

If thieves are “as tough as a wet dollar store napkin” then even a bunker can sneeze and rip them to pieces.

Again: No.

You are fixing something that is not broken by breaking it and trying to fix it.

The second suggestion (taken from the general tone of the SotG) was more boon stripping/hate.

I can honestly say that you are extremely misinterpreted the message or simply highly exaggerating the necessity for a change.

When you combine the 2 (again, in my interpretation), it makes it so that bunkers can’t just throw up all their best boons asap and block whenever they feel like it – they have to try to counterplay the thief a little bit. Should the bunker throw up some short duration boons to try to bait me to waste Init? When should he use his block to ensure I won’t be able to burst him down through it? Can he throw up some important boons then block to get the thief to blow his init pool doing utter kitten damage just to remove the boons?etc, etc, etc…

meh…your scenario is way off. I’d grab my Mesmer friend and have him strip all the boons so I can burst/spike.

The end.

EasymodeX.4062:

Generally speaking the sPvP / esport notion is a sinking ship at this point. There are so many things against its success atm that I can’t begin to list them.

Not another e-sport. I hated it when they did that to GW1, they broke a lot of fun PvE builds.

But that’s for another topic.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Allow me to elaborate (though to be honest, what I’m about to type here exists in this post already in some way shape or form).

Step 1) Reduce thief damage – Mind you, thieves will still have to hit fairly hard (low base HP, medium armor, no protection, no stability, no immune skills), but alter the mechanics that let them hit like trucks in exchange for being as tough as a wet dollar store napkin

To be honest, the answer to “what I’m about to type here exist in this post already in some way shape or form.”

No.

Step 2) With their new reduced burst potential, thieves need some way to actually threaten bunkers – My suggestion was to allow some or all of their attacks to penetrate block, with each ability having its own % of block piercing. I’m not suggesting every ability have 100% block penetration..in fact, I mentioned alot of them would probably be very low (just to allow the application of secondary effects through block).

If thieves are “as tough as a wet dollar store napkin” then even a bunker can sneeze and rip them to pieces.

Again: No.

You are fixing something that is not broken by breaking it and trying to fix it.

The second suggestion (taken from the general tone of the SotG) was more boon stripping/hate.

I can honestly say that you are extremely misinterpreted the message or simply highly exaggerating the necessity for a change.

When you combine the 2 (again, in my interpretation), it makes it so that bunkers can’t just throw up all their best boons asap and block whenever they feel like it – they have to try to counterplay the thief a little bit. Should the bunker throw up some short duration boons to try to bait me to waste Init? When should he use his block to ensure I won’t be able to burst him down through it? Can he throw up some important boons then block to get the thief to blow his init pool doing utter kitten damage just to remove the boons?etc, etc, etc…

meh…your scenario is way off. I’d grab my Mesmer friend and have him strip all the boons so I can burst/spike.

The end.

Not all of us have a friend we can summon whenever a bunker needs busting. Whats the point of a burst class that has trouble with bunkers because they don’t have the tools to beat them? Some classes having better access to boon removal than others is fine, but all classes should have some base level of it.

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

The lack of boon removal is a pretty recognized issue at this point – maybe you disagree, but I’m not making the issue up out of whole cloth, and Anet agrees.

evilapprentice.6379:

Not all of us have a friend we can summon whenever a bunker needs busting. Whats the point of a burst class that has trouble with bunkers because they don’t have the tools to beat them?

What’s the point of a bunker that can be busted by burst? It isn’t killing other people nearly as quickly as the burst is who can simply switch targets to a non-bunker.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Allow me to elaborate (though to be honest, what I’m about to type here exists in this post already in some way shape or form).

Step 1) Reduce thief damage – Mind you, thieves will still have to hit fairly hard (low base HP, medium armor, no protection, no stability, no immune skills), but alter the mechanics that let them hit like trucks in exchange for being as tough as a wet dollar store napkin

To be honest, the answer to “what I’m about to type here exist in this post already in some way shape or form.”

No.

Step 2) With their new reduced burst potential, thieves need some way to actually threaten bunkers – My suggestion was to allow some or all of their attacks to penetrate block, with each ability having its own % of block piercing. I’m not suggesting every ability have 100% block penetration..in fact, I mentioned alot of them would probably be very low (just to allow the application of secondary effects through block).

If thieves are “as tough as a wet dollar store napkin” then even a bunker can sneeze and rip them to pieces.

Again: No.

You are fixing something that is not broken by breaking it and trying to fix it.

The second suggestion (taken from the general tone of the SotG) was more boon stripping/hate.

I can honestly say that you are extremely misinterpreted the message or simply highly exaggerating the necessity for a change.

When you combine the 2 (again, in my interpretation), it makes it so that bunkers can’t just throw up all their best boons asap and block whenever they feel like it – they have to try to counterplay the thief a little bit. Should the bunker throw up some short duration boons to try to bait me to waste Init? When should he use his block to ensure I won’t be able to burst him down through it? Can he throw up some important boons then block to get the thief to blow his init pool doing utter kitten damage just to remove the boons?etc, etc, etc…

meh…your scenario is way off. I’d grab my Mesmer friend and have him strip all the boons so I can burst/spike.

The end.

Not all of us have a friend we can summon whenever a bunker needs busting. Whats the point of a burst class that has trouble with bunkers because they don’t have the tools to beat them? Some classes having better access to boon removal than others is fine, but all classes should have some base level of it.

What’s the point of a bunker class who cannot burst?

You can’t have it all.

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

Why do I have to roll that? That’s a horrible build IMO.

The lack of boon removal is a pretty recognized issue at this point – maybe you disagree, but I’m not making the issue up out of whole cloth, and Anet agrees.

Anet agreed on what? You can’t even post a quote of what they said.

Sebrent.3625:

evilapprentice.6379:

Not all of us have a friend we can summon whenever a bunker needs busting. Whats the point of a burst class that has trouble with bunkers because they don’t have the tools to beat them?

What’s the point of a bunker that can be busted by burst? It isn’t killing other people nearly as quickly as the burst is who can simply switch targets to a non-bunker.

It should be about who plays better. I can’t currently “outplay” boons, because I don’t have much in the way of boon removal skills (and again, FS doesn’t count until it works correctly, no matter how many ways you can get it to overcome its kittenty pathing by using secondary effects)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

Why do I have to roll that? That’s a horrible build IMO.

One thing to note about this line of discussion is that the concept of a “bunker buster” build doesn’t have to rely on raw damage output, which is what that glass cannon spec focuses on. That’s a very narrow-minded view.

A bunker buster may only do moderate damage, but if they can strip away all the defenses of a bunker build, then they will bust it.

One of the issues with the premise of this thread is that you are trying to adapt a glass cannon raw damage build to bust bunkers, which isn’t necessarily the right approach. It could be as simple as adding a greater variety of conditions and boon stripping to a thief condition build so that condition removals don’t work as well, combined with a removal of regen. This, on top of some buff to poison’s heal reduction could very well bust any bunker really kitten fast.

The concept that condition damage bypasses armor is already integrated into the game. Naturally the discussion becomes how “easy” it is to remove conditions, and how hard it is to re-apply large stacks. Hence, tuning to the existing condition / removal systems and abilities could easily be a better solution than some “new mechanic” like block-bypass or armor penetration.

One interesting concept is this: targeted boon stripping. There are already many abilities in this game that remove a limited set of conditions (e.g. removes cripple/immob, etc). Why not have a boon strip that -only- removes regen? Or only protection?

This sort of limited + targeted boon strip could be much more balanced / palatable / effective than any wholesale mechanics adjustment.

Edit: Warr GS Arcing Strike could sure as hell use a targeted boon strip, although due to its cooldown I’d say something like Aegis or Fury removal. Removing prot on an 8s cooldown or w/e it was is probably too low.

EasymodeX.4062:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

Why do I have to roll that? That’s a horrible build IMO.

One thing to note about this line of discussion is that the concept of a “bunker buster” build doesn’t have to rely on raw damage output, which is what that glass cannon spec focuses on. That’s a very narrow-minded view.

A bunker buster may only do moderate damage, but if they can strip away all the defenses of a bunker build, then they will bust it.

One of the issues with the premise of this thread is that you are trying to adapt a glass cannon raw damage build to bust bunkers, which isn’t necessarily the right approach. It could be as simple as adding a greater variety of conditions and boon stripping to a thief condition build so that condition removals don’t work as well, combined with a removal of regen. This, on top of some buff to poison’s heal reduction could very well bust any bunker really kitten fast.

The concept that condition damage bypasses armor is already integrated into the game. Naturally the discussion becomes how “easy” it is to remove conditions, and how hard it is to re-apply large stacks. Hence, tuning to the existing condition / removal systems and abilities could easily be a better solution than some “new mechanic” like block-bypass or armor penetration.

One interesting concept is this: targeted boon stripping. There are already many abilities in this game that remove a limited set of conditions (e.g. removes cripple/immob, etc). Why not have a boon strip that -only- removes regen? Or only protection?

This sort of limited + targeted boon strip could be much more balanced / palatable / effective than any wholesale mechanics adjustment.

Edit: Warr GS Arcing Strike could sure as hell use a targeted boon strip, although due to its cooldown I’d say something like Aegis or Fury removal. Removing prot on an 8s cooldown or w/e it was is probably too low.

That way of thinking is how cookie-cutter build started. If a skill can strip a specific boon, then everyone in their mother will have that skill stapled.

Ever realize the reason why there’s a bunker in the first place?

Yes, it’s because of glass cannons that don’t break.

Let’s assume for a minute that a certain skill strips a specific boon and glass Thieves becomes a problem, then what? Ele-bunkers would want a buff too to counter the Thieves? When will it end?

So before it starts, let’s think carefully of the BIG PICTURE. In sPvP YOU ARE NOT ALONE. If your team has no Necro or Mesmer to deal with bunkers, then you have more problem than a Thief not able to bunker bust.

EasymodeX.4062:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

Why do I have to roll that? That’s a horrible build IMO.

One thing to note about this line of discussion is that the concept of a “bunker buster” build doesn’t have to rely on raw damage output, which is what that glass cannon spec focuses on. That’s a very narrow-minded view.

A bunker buster may only do moderate damage, but if they can strip away all the defenses of a bunker build, then they will bust it.

One of the issues with the premise of this thread is that you are trying to adapt a glass cannon raw damage build to bust bunkers, which isn’t necessarily the right approach. It could be as simple as adding a greater variety of conditions and boon stripping to a thief condition build so that condition removals don’t work as well, combined with a removal of regen. This, on top of some buff to poison’s heal reduction could very well bust any bunker really kitten fast.

The concept that condition damage bypasses armor is already integrated into the game. Naturally the discussion becomes how “easy” it is to remove conditions, and how hard it is to re-apply large stacks. Hence, tuning to the existing condition / removal systems and abilities could easily be a better solution than some “new mechanic” like block-bypass or armor penetration.

One interesting concept is this: targeted boon stripping. There are already many abilities in this game that remove a limited set of conditions (e.g. removes cripple/immob, etc). Why not have a boon strip that -only- removes regen? Or only protection?

This sort of limited + targeted boon strip could be much more balanced / palatable / effective than any wholesale mechanics adjustment.

Edit: Warr GS Arcing Strike could sure as hell use a targeted boon strip, although due to its cooldown I’d say something like Aegis or Fury removal. Removing prot on an 8s cooldown or w/e it was is probably too low.

See? This is what I was aiming for. Less flaming (in general, that’s not directed at you), and more the exchange of ideas.

I very much like the idea of targeted boon stripping – it’s something you could tune to be more effective against specific specs (giving class X access to fury/might/swiftness removal, and class Y access to protection/regen/stability removal). You could make certain classes better tailored for dealing with spec X through means other than just damage and DR.

^ ^

Sir Vincent III.1286 is quite correct. There is a reason I run 20 points in domination on my Mesmer. There is a reason I run sword on my Thief.

Boon removal helps bust bunkers and it helps deflate some foes’ damage as well (might/fury stackers). I accept the weaknesses of these choices.

Maybe it’s because I played Ranger before Thief, but I haven’t found flanking strike to be hard to hit with. You also have your sword’s #2 skill to immobilize … and you should be using it anyways with sword so you have a pocket stunbreaker/condition removal ready.

A sword thief without shadow return readied is a dumb sword thief (or afk), lol.

Sebrent.3625:

A sword thief without shadow return readied is a dumb sword thief (or afk), lol.

FYI:

I’m sure it’s a bug, but if you cast IS and and then C&D (or any other skill) too fast, the strike won’t occur and your Shadow Return marker won’t be placed. It’s very frustrating when I jump into a sticky situation thinking I have an easy out, only to further entrench myself in the nastiness when I hit ‘2’ again…

:(

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

A sword thief without shadow return readied is a dumb sword thief (or afk), lol.

FYI:

I’m sure it’s a bug, but if you cast IS and and then C&D (or any other skill) too fast, the strike won’t occur and your Shadow Return marker won’t be placed. It’s very frustrating when I jump into a sticky situation thinking I have an easy out, only to further entrench myself in the nastiness when I hit ‘2’ again…

:(

Ugh. Thankfully, I have not encountered that.

If you could replicate it and make a video of such, I bet it would speed up a fix for ArenaNet. Replication of a bug makes discovering the responsible code easier which makes creating a fix quicker.

Though, are you sure you’re not just hitting C&D before flanking strike has gone off?

I have a 3 sec block on my shield with warrior I definitely can’t get behind this. Its also on a 24 sec cd traited. Get out with this one rofl. Block = wasted cloak and dagger for those bad thieves out there that see me hold my shield up and still try to CnD me rofl(always makes me chuckle inside)

Sebrent.3625:

Though, are you sure you’re not just hitting C&D before flanking strike has gone off?

Na, I hit IS and quickly hit C&D to get stealth on my victim. It ports you forward, but cancels the actual strike, which cancels placement of the shadow return, but still spends the 3 ini and allows you to cast IS again… Could be something that is actually intended, but I’ve been able to replicate it reliably. Has killed me more than a few times, as I’m pretty quick on the draw with that #5 button…

I’ll try and post a video later.

Sebrent.3625:

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

A sword thief without shadow return readied is a dumb sword thief (or afk), lol.

FYI:

I’m sure it’s a bug, but if you cast IS and and then C&D (or any other skill) too fast, the strike won’t occur and your Shadow Return marker won’t be placed. It’s very frustrating when I jump into a sticky situation thinking I have an easy out, only to further entrench myself in the nastiness when I hit ‘2’ again…

:(

Ugh. Thankfully, I have not encountered that.

If you could replicate it and make a video of such, I bet it would speed up a fix for ArenaNet. Replication of a bug makes discovering the responsible code easier which makes creating a fix quicker.

Though, are you sure you’re not just hitting C&D before flanking strike has gone off?

What he’s probably encountering is the fact that IS goes off a fraction of a second after the teleport – you teleport, there’s a little wind up, then the swing. If you hit any skill inbetween the teleport and the swing, you don’t get the IS attack (or the immob) – though I don’t recall if shadow return circle isnt properly dropped.

I’ve personally hit alot of issues with IS – if you’re using it in any sort of fast paced fight (like say you’re trying to avoid AoE’s at both your target and your shadow return location), the ability inevitably bugs out – you dont teleport to target, you don’t return but consume the circle, you double teleport, you double return….the ability does not respond well to being used alot in a short time frame.

evilapprentice.6379:

though I don’t recall if shadow return circle isnt properly dropped.

It 110% is not.

If a skill can strip a specific boon, then everyone in their mother will have that skill stapled.

Unless it had a significant cost. Duh.

Mesmers have a utility to swap 3 conditions / boons, but most don’t have it selected. Hmm.

Let’s assume for a minute that a certain skill strips a specific boon and glass Thieves becomes a problem, then what?

Who said that glass Thieves would have access to targeted boon stripping? You could make it a GM trait in the steal line, or Acrobatics for that matter.

Lol@ random assumptions.

Any capability can be tuned. The discussion is whether particular capabilities are relevant to nerfing thief damage output and/or helping to beat bunkers in a balanced manner (separate from whether or not thief damage output should be nerfed or whether or not bunkers need more counters than already exist). It could even be tagged onto a utility with a long cooldown, or cost 10 initiative. Shrug.

Laika.8795:

evilapprentice.6379:

though I don’t recall if shadow return circle isnt properly dropped.

It 110% is not.

Another thing that I believe is bugged is when the undead in Arah knocks you down, where it also disables your skills, cancels the shadown return even though the circle is still on the floor. So pressing #2 again after getting up will trigger IS instead.

EasymodeX.4062:

If a skill can strip a specific boon, then everyone in their mother will have that skill stapled.

Unless it had a significant cost. Duh.

Mesmers have a utility to swap 3 conditions / boons, but most don’t have it selected. Hmm.

Let’s assume for a minute that a certain skill strips a specific boon and glass Thieves becomes a problem, then what?

Who said that glass Thieves would have access to targeted boon stripping? You could make it a GM trait in the steal line, or Acrobatics for that matter.

Lol@ random assumptions.

Any capability can be tuned. The discussion is whether particular capabilities are relevant to nerfing thief damage output and/or helping to beat bunkers in a balanced manner (separate from whether or not thief damage output should be nerfed or whether or not bunkers need more counters than already exist). It could even be tagged onto a utility with a long cooldown, or cost 10 initiative. Shrug.

What I’m saying is that you are trying to sharpen your wooden sword to cut thru a chain mail rather than thinking maybe you are using the wrong tool.

I’m saying that sharpening the wood sword is an interesting option.

EasymodeX.4062:

I’m saying that sharpening the wood sword is an interesting option.

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Is there a problem with a greater variety of builds capable of performing a job?

Do you want this game to be that cookie-cutter?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

EasymodeX.4062:

I’m saying that sharpening the wood sword is an interesting option.

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Please, do list what “effective, efficient” boon stripping options thieves have.

As far as I can tell, this is the list.
1) Sigil – Marginal usefulness, strips 1 boon on crit, which removes tactical application
2) Flanking strike – Won’t count until it correctly tracks targets. On paper its fairly nice though.
3) Bountiful theft – No real complaints here. 20 points into trickery can be a little hard to manage if you’re aiming for decent direct damage though.

Did I miss anything?

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Please, do list what “effective, efficient” boon stripping options thieves have.

Boon stripping isn’t the only tool that busts a bunker.

EasymodeX.4062:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Please, do list what “effective, efficient” boon stripping options thieves have.

Boon stripping isn’t the only tool that busts a bunker.

It’s one of the biggest obstacles that can be countered though. Among the factors that make a bunker tough, 33% additional DR is fairly strong. Stability prevents you from interrupting their actions. Then there’s retal, vigor, and regen.

Reducing heals would be another big one – it’s not exactly easy to counter passive/instant condition cleansing though (besides for loading them up with a bunch of filler conditions)

Easiest way to counter prot and armor is to just use condition damage like a P/D spec.

It would require a reworking of the entire class, although I like the idea. I would like to keep backstab damage high, making it unmitigatable but I’d like to ask for more penalties to missing a backstab and making it generally more difficult to pull off.

EasymodeX.4062:

Easiest way to counter prot and armor is to just use condition damage like a P/D spec.

I see, and with all the condition cleanses out there (especially on bunker ele’s) and the fact that pretty much all of our conditions are bleed only, how exactly does that work in our favor?

Not to mention, saying “roll condition spec” shouldn’t be the only available answer…

EasymodeX.4062:

Easiest way to counter prot and armor is to just use condition damage like a P/D spec.

I ran P/D for a long, long…long time. I’d probably run it again if there was ever any reason to hit 2, 3, or 4. It’s also 100% useless against a bunker ele, so there’s that.

It’s a particularly 1 note spec, and boring to play. Like LDB, or instagib. It’s also extremely predictable, since it relies on stealth so heavily to actually stack bleeds. Since we seem to be discussing all sorts of things, it’d be nice to have some solid specs (where all the abilities have useful applications), and some spec diversity.

EasymodeX.4062:

Is there a problem with a greater variety of builds capable of performing a job?

That is not what your suggestion is advocating.

Do you want this game to be that cookie-cutter?

It’s called professions, who are proficient on what they do, like um, removing buffs. It’s no cookie cutter, instead what you’re proposing will give birth to a cookie cutter anti-bunker thief.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

EasymodeX.4062:

I’m saying that sharpening the wood sword is an interesting option.

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Please, do list what “effective, efficient” boon stripping options thieves have.

We were not talking about thieves.

I see, and with all the condition cleanses out there (especially on bunker ele’s) and the fact that pretty much all of our conditions are bleed only, how exactly does that work in our favor?

Thieves also have relatively good access to poison. Learn your class.

Furthermore, the variety of conditions is critical to buffering cleanses. So the assessment isn’t simply a matter of “zomg bleeds get cleansed fail qq”.

In addition, even though Thieves “only” have bleed, Thieves can apply bleeds all the time. E.g. cleanses are only moderately effective.

And last, as I previously said, I think it’s worth looking at the variety of cleanses available to classes and the variety of condition spam available to specific thief builds.

Not to mention, saying “roll condition spec” shouldn’t be the only available answer…

It’s not the only answer. Other answers include picking up every boon strip you can get access to (including sigil and the steal trait) and running with burst damage. Or teaming up with another player.

Or you can run a tank spec that also spams weakness and poison to erode a bunker.

In fact, the random suggestions I mentioned include augmentations to all those potential approaches.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s called professions, who are proficient on what they do, like um, removing buffs. It’s no cookie cutter, instead what you’re proposing will give birth to a cookie cutter anti-bunker thief.

Last I checked, Anet has attempted to make generally varied builds available to all classes, making the “professions” capable of doing multiple things — well, I might add — not just 1.

Indeed, what exactly do you think I’m proposing? If I recall correctly, the other poster had proposed the block-penetration. I randomly tossed out a half dozen alternatives and potential alternatives that change less of the existing game.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the simple concepts I tossed around.

EasymodeX.4062:

Thieves also have relatively good access to poison. Learn your class.

Don’t make me laugh. SB poison is great, but that’s 9 seconds you won’t be applying bleed. Poison on steal, but it isn’t a common line for condi thieves and still has a huge CD. A fleeting couple seconds of poison on the end of your auto attack chain with D/x? lol…

And the biggest joke of all, venoms. No, I know my class. I also know a condition thief against a bunker is laughable at best.

I disagree with your extreme assessment (and will casually note that there are 3 other ways to inflict poison off the top of my head), but regardless the point is that if condition damage builds are not effectively combating bunker builds (whether or not they actually “beat” bunker builds), then Anet should review the availability of conditions and condition removal (and where condition removal can be combined with direct damage defenses).

EasymodeX.4062:

I disagree with your extreme assessment (and will casually note that there are 3 other ways to inflict poison off the top of my head), but regardless the point is that if condition damage builds are not effectively combating bunker builds (whether or not they actually “beat” bunker builds), then Anet should review the availability of conditions and condition removal (and where condition removal can be combined with direct damage defenses).

Ha, what, underwater abilities and combo fields (off of your own field) or are you stretching as far as stolen abilities like “Throw Scale” and “Throw Gunk” (which only has a chance of applying poison if your opponent is standing right in it)? I’m merely defending myself from your assertion that I don’t know my class, and you are reaching to attempt to stay in control.

Either way, I disagree with your extremely optimistic assessment so we are at an impasse, but I do agree that bunkers have too many ways to clear their conditions, in addition to their wealth of boons, and it’s a tad out of control.

EasymodeX.4062:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s called professions, who are proficient on what they do, like um, removing buffs. It’s no cookie cutter, instead what you’re proposing will give birth to a cookie cutter anti-bunker thief.

Last I checked, Anet has attempted to make generally varied builds available to all classes, making the “professions” capable of doing multiple things — well, I might add — not just 1.

Well that is your perception even though it’s not even close to reality.

What’s next? Shadow Refuge that heals as much as Healing Rain? lol

Indeed, what exactly do you think I’m proposing? If I recall correctly, the other poster had proposed the block-penetration. I randomly tossed out a half dozen alternatives and potential alternatives that change less of the existing game.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the simple concepts I tossed around.

What assumption are you talking about?

I have specified the intent of my posts. Rather than “randomly tossed out a half dozen alternatives and potential alternatives " for Thieves, why not look into other profession who can do the better job.

What I’m aiming for is, GW2 is not a one-man-show. Team composition is essential in making your competition a success.

I was making an effort to use flanking strike last night even to remove regen and other boons and was able to land it reliably quite a bit of the time. I even used it as a bit of burst once (cast once for extra damage, not spammed it).

Sebrent.3625:

I was making an effort to use flanking strike last night even to remove regen and other boons and was able to land it reliably quite a bit of the time. I even used it as a bit of burst once (cast once for extra damage, not spammed it).

Sigh.

If you have to come to the boards to point out how pleased you are that a skill worked as listed, that’s a problem.

I’m glad you like FS, I’m not trying to drag your opinion of S/D down – it’ll be a broken spec to me however until FS works correctly every time. And mind you, I just rolled S/D to see how good it would be against bunkers (and its actually pretty good – it’d be excellent if FS worked correctly tho)

evilapprentice.6379:

Sebrent.3625:

I was making an effort to use flanking strike last night even to remove regen and other boons and was able to land it reliably quite a bit of the time. I even used it as a bit of burst once (cast once for extra damage, not spammed it).

Sigh.

If you have to come to the boards to point out how pleased you are that a skill worked as listed, that’s a problem.

I’m glad you like FS, I’m not trying to drag your opinion of S/D down – it’ll be a broken spec to me however until FS works correctly every time. And mind you, I just rolled S/D to see how good it would be against bunkers (and its actually pretty good – it’d be excellent if FS worked correctly tho)

It does work every time, if you know HOW to use it. We don’t want just any noob to be ABLE to use that skill. Atm FS is the only attack we have that separates noobs from vets. If you see someone landing FS, you know they are pretty skilled. Let the noobs keep their P/D and D/D builds.

Adaneshade.2409:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sebrent.3625:

I was making an effort to use flanking strike last night even to remove regen and other boons and was able to land it reliably quite a bit of the time. I even used it as a bit of burst once (cast once for extra damage, not spammed it).

Sigh.

If you have to come to the boards to point out how pleased you are that a skill worked as listed, that’s a problem.

I’m glad you like FS, I’m not trying to drag your opinion of S/D down – it’ll be a broken spec to me however until FS works correctly every time. And mind you, I just rolled S/D to see how good it would be against bunkers (and its actually pretty good – it’d be excellent if FS worked correctly tho)

It does work every time, if you know HOW to use it. We don’t want just any noob to be ABLE to use that skill. Atm FS is the only attack we have that separates noobs from vets. If you see someone landing FS, you know they are pretty skilled. Let the noobs keep their P/D and D/D builds.

You’re right. When my target is moving and I hit FS, and the first strike evades me on a 45 degree angle to the right of my target, that’s obviously my fault. I tapped the “pretend my target is 10 feet to the right” button before hitting FS – What a noob move, right? It has nothing to do with poor pathing on the part of skill – the true mark of talent is playing around bugs and poor pathing, rather that requesting it be fixed. Man, you must have been the nastiest trap thief back when they didn’t work right.

You can take all the pride you like in knowing how to jury-rig a poorly functioning skill into working. Me, I’d prefer if it did the thing it said it did every time, and not put any extra effort into it.

My point is, the extra effort prevents all but the most situationally aware players from even attempting S/D. In a class that’s dominated by the noobs in the game (I mean honestly who can’t admit that at least 50% of the terribads in the game pick thief because it’s so ezmode in pvp); I like to know there is something so difficult to do that most of the people QQing about EZMode thief don’t have a prayer of successfully using the skill.

I was hitting it against moving targets. It was very easy. It was even easier since the sword’s auto-attack cripples my target.

Landing flanking strike is largely l2p. If you’ve ever used Ranger sword, it’s a very simple skill to learn how to use. Same principles … skill with movement.

Sebrent.3625:

I was hitting it against moving targets. It was very easy. It was even easier since the sword’s auto-attack cripples my target.

Landing flanking strike is largely l2p. If you’ve ever used Ranger sword, it’s a very simple skill to learn how to use. Same principles … skill with movement.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND for the last time – it does not matter how often you get FS to hit when you apply some sort of secondary condition.

I’m 100% aware on how to get FS to hit using snares, roots, and KD’s. The skill is not designed to only be used on snared, rooted, and KD’d targets. It is limited by its poor function, and shouldn’t be. I’m glad you’ve found a way to play around it, and take pride in it, but taking pride in knowing how to jury-rig a skill shouldn’t be a requirement for playing a S/D thief.

That doesn’t change the fact that the skill should work, the same way, every time you hit it. It currently doesn’t. That makes it inconsistent. I’m more than willing to learn and understand the skills strengths and weaknesses, as soon as it works correctly. Until such a time, keep jury-rigging it. Keep feeling good about yourself, you’re that kitten player who kept with it even though it wasn’t working right. Just like I’m sure you were running traps 3 months ago for the challenge, and D/P before that just to show everyone how bad kitten shadowshot could be if you just knew how to play the game.

And I have played a S/D ranger – its amazing how good their pathing is compared to FS – I don’t have any memories of ending up 10 feet to either side of my target after using any of their evade swings (though admittedly, I’ve played alot less time on my ranger)

(1) I don’t need cripple in order to land Flanking Strike

(2) Sword applies cripple via its auto-attack so its trivial to apply

l2p sword thief or stop talking about it. It isn’t even my main yet I’ve quickly figured out how to use flanking strike where landing it isn’t any harder than landing my auto-attack.

Also keep in mind, if made so it would land 100% EVERY TIME you trigger it, the skill would be insanely OP in the hands of a player like myself or sebrent that know how to use it. An evading, UNBLOCKABLE, boon stripping attack that consequently hits like a truck is just.. well OP. The only reason it hasn’t been nerfed is because it takes a special skillset to be able to make it work effectively, keeping it out of the hands of the masses. I don’t want it nerfed, I like having my “ace in the hole” in a fight vs that guardian or boon stacking ele.

Sebrent.3625:

(1) I don’t need cripple in order to land Flanking Strike

(2) Sword applies cripple via its auto-attack so its trivial to apply

l2p sword thief or stop talking about it. It isn’t even my main yet I’ve quickly figured out how to use flanking strike where landing it isn’t any harder than landing my auto-attack.

Ok, I will L2P – you’re so good at it, tell me. I’d -love- to learn. Without using cripple, chill, KD, or Immobilize (no matter how trivial they are to apply), how do you get flanking strike to land every time.
Please, be sure to include different situations – target is standing still, target is moving directly away, directly toward, away at an angle, toward at an angle…Obviously, I need the help.