Guild Wars 2

I posted this on the “Thief Feedback” forum. At the risk of redundancy…

What’s up with Thieve’s weapon choices, or rather, lack thereof…

For me, the Thief’s biggest issue is weapon viability. Overall, it is 90% dagger/dagger. I would like to see the sword reworked to be a bit more effective, and have a benefit when used from stealth.

Also, using a sword in the offhand would be nifty too.

PS: Anyone use sword in a viable and fun build?

Eggshen.2671:

I posted this on the “Thief Feedback” forum. At the risk of redundancy…

What’s up with Thieve’s weapon choices, or rather, lack thereof…

For me, the Thief’s biggest issue is weapon viability. Overall, it is 90% dagger/dagger. I would like to see the sword reworked to be a bit more effective, and have a benefit when used from stealth.

Also, using a sword in the offhand would be nifty too.

PS: Anyone use sword in a viable and fun build?

I use sword and pistol still, because nobody else does. LOL.

Sword/pistol was great, then pistol whip got nerfed, if I read correctly. Pistol whip still hits pretty hard, but not what it used to. I think sword is still used a lot in tanky builds too, but most people are looking for high damage.

D/D is the only weaponset without glaring issues, unfortunately.

S/P – Pistol whip has a number of minor known issues that keep it from being an effective use of initiative in most cases – Auto attack is your best DPS option, and its rather boring.
S/D – Flanking strike is pistol whips loser brother – it has glaring issues, and is generally fairly worthless. Serious lack of burst damage in a burst damage class. Daze doesn’t last long enough to control opponents through skilled play – you’re expected to maneuver like a D/D rogue with none of the damage.
P/P – Body shot is worthless, 1 and 3 are exclusive of each other (1 sucks in a Power/crit build, 3 is a waste of initiative in a condi build), no access to thief defensive tactics (Stealth, increased mobility, evades, etc), low overall damage potential outside of spamming 3 (an initiative intensive, long cast, easily avoided attack).
P/D – No issues directly with the set itself, but condition removal is very important in the current meta. Having access to 1 damaging condition limits the class in general. Poor access to other conditions (damaging or otherwise) combined with the short duration/quick application nature of our bleeds means that it’s almost always the last applied condition, and therefore cleansed by condition cleansing abilities. Extremely low Direct Damage makes stomping in any coordinated game a nightmare (since All your bleed stacks inexplicably vanish on down, your targets are usually ridiculously easy to revive, and you don’t pack the Direct Damage to stop it.
D/P – Shadow shot is a joke. It’s a gap closer that roots the user on hit- that’s like a bleed that cleanses, a stun that grants stability, or a direct damage attack that heals at the end – stupid. That leaves us using HS to close gaps (which wastes initiative and makes us look like idiots who don’t know how to play).

I renounced stealth skills and went into lab, came out with this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmiOncS4E+5Ey2jKUn4J9D0UPDuyqA

Lots of teleporting (3600 range worth, in fact – over double longbow’s range), stun breakers and condition removal. Uses the excellent sword control skills to lock down, and uses evasive moves to survive/defend.

Withdraw is IMO the best Thief healing option: short C/D, excellent evasive move that scrubs some of the nastiest conditions (immobilize/chill/cripple) that can be applied to you in prolonged fights. With Vigor on-heal you can spend 66% of your combat time with Vigor up – add in Feline Grace and you’re very very dodgy indeed.

High initiative regen in order to be able to use Headshot every time your opponent channels his heal, and just to hang in prolonged fights in general (no stealth crutch – you need to use skill to live).

I use Knight’s/Valkyrie armor in WvW (all my characters have some combo of these on), using zerker weapons (sigils are personal preference – I like to have boon removal on-crit and 5% damage), aim for 40-50% crit chance, +50% crit damage, 17k HP, >2k armor.

I have Thief runes atm, but they are left-overs from previous build, not yet decided if I want to change it up.

Not glass, not bunker – still competitive/viable.

Docherty.8372:

I renounced stealth skills and went into lab, came out with this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmiOncS4E+5Ey2jKUn4J9D0UPDuyqA

Lots of teleporting (3600 range worth, in fact – over double longbow’s range), stun breakers and condition removal. Uses the excellent sword control skills to lock down, and uses evasive moves to survive/defend.

Withdraw is IMO the best Thief healing option: short C/D, excellent evasive move that scrubs some of the nastiest conditions (immobilize/chill/cripple) that can be applied to you in prolonged fights. With Vigor on-heal you can spend 66% of your combat time with Vigor up – add in Feline Grace and you’re very very dodgy indeed.

High initiative regen in order to be able to use Headshot every time your opponent channels his heal, and just to hang in prolonged fights in general (no stealth crutch – you need to use skill to live).

I use Knight’s/Valkyrie armor in WvW (all my characters have some combo of these on), using zerker weapons (sigils are personal preference – I like to have boon removal on-crit and 5% damage), aim for 40-50% crit chance, +50% crit damage, 17k HP, >2k armor.

I have Thief runes atm, but they are left-overs from previous build, not yet decided if I want to change it up.

Not glass, not bunker – still competitive/viable.

Pretty similar to a build I ran for a few weeks . The main issue here is Infiltrators strike – the quicker you play, the less reliable this skill is. I’ve had the teleport to target fail on multiple occasions, I’ve dropped a shadow return at my location when trying to use shadow return, and I’ve used shadow return only to teleport nowhere to name a few of my issues.

It gets infuriating when you get eaten alive by a Frenzied HB’s because Shadow return bugged. Or when you Inf Strike a ranged player to get out of a big group fight, only to drop a shadow return in the middle of that kittenstorm instead. Or you Inf strike to your target (who is in LoS and Range) only to drop a shadow return at your location and watch them escape.

The best way to use this build in a group fight is dart in and out of danger with Inf strike – you hop in, do as much damage as possible, and the second attention turns to you, you shadow return out – you make yourself a less enticing target than say, a warrior or guardian or someone else who has the HP and Skillset to survive in that situation. The second Inf strike or shadow return fails in any way, the spec fails.

One other issue beyond the glaring weapon options: Initiative.

All other profession run a cooldown system. Thieves have a cool mechanic that allows for burst or a more “chosen” oppurtunity. However, in longer fights, pve and pvp, thieves are left resource starved. I know certain specs can alleviate this to a point, but still a valid observation. Off topic though.

Make my sword more effective please =)

What most Thieves fail to realize is that D/P + S/D are by far the most effective weapon sets in sustained PvP (D/D is superior if one intends to end the engagement in under 10 seconds – which is somewhat risky).

Unparalleled access to stealth allows D/P to make you virtually unkillable; even with Berserker equipment. Granted, this requires massive sacrifices in the DPS department (you need a maxed out Stealth tree and at least 20 points in Acrobatics for +2 initiative per 10 seconds, leaving you 20 points for everything else). However, you should still be ripping through most people with ease in full Berserker equipment.

S/D has the second highest auto-attack DPS (second only to Daggers by a very small margin) – and it cleaves. Tactical Strike is very good at interrupting heals and shutting down troublesome targets. More importantly however, the cleave on the auto-attack allows you to Daze a rezzer and hit both the rezzer and his downed ally. One downed player easily turns into two.

The two weapon sets may have useless no. 3 abilities, but they become irrelevant when considering the utilities of their other abilities.

S/P and S/D aren’t bad, you just have to ignore their dual skills most of the time (at least in PvP).

A lot of bad S/P builds come from people trying to shoehorn pistol whip into PvP effectiveness by stacking all kinds of quickness and immobilize. You can make it work, but at that point you might as well just use a backstab build. What people fail to realize is that #1,2,4,5 are all solid skills and S/P can run quite well without using PW at all.

Iohanna.4863:

What most Thieves fail to realize is that D/P + S/D are by far the most effective weapon sets in sustained PvP (D/D is superior if one intends to end the engagement in under 10 seconds).

Unparalleled access to stealth allows D/P to make you virtually unkillable; even with Berserker equipment. Granted, this requires massive sacrifices in the DPS department (you need a maxed out Stealth tree and at least 20 points in Acrobatics for +2 initiative per 10 seconds, leaving you 20 points for everything else). However, you should be ripping through most people with ease in full Berserker equipment.

S/D has the second highest auto-attack DPS (second only to Daggers by a very small margin) – and it cleaves. Tactical Strike is very good at interrupting heals and shutting down troublesome targets. More importantly however, the cleave on the auto-attack allows you to Daze a rezzer and hit both the rezzer and his downed ally. One downed player easily turns into two.

The two weapon sets may have useless no. 3 abilities, but they become irrelevant when considering the utilities of their other abilities.

I’m loving the everloving kitten out of D/P – I’ll actually use it when Fleet shadow works. The current problem is, when you face any smart player in tPvP, they -know- they can outrun you if they’re running 25% speed signet or perma/high duration swiftness or even high endurance builds spamming dodge. D/P rocks hotjoins, and anyone in tPvP which can’t move quickly – when you run into anyone with even an iota of experience and movement speed, you won’t catch up to them – which is why fleet shadow was changed (not that it was correctly implemented, mind you).

All that doesn’t excuse the fact that Shadow shot has been broken since day 1 – the spec would be more versatile if our gap closer worked correctly.

What you’ve described in S/D exists in S/P, only more easily accessed. Headshot lets you instantly interrupt a Res from range, and in one of the rare instances where Pistol whip is useful, you can stun the resser, hit them both, AND evade retaliation while swinging. And it doesn’t require stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

S/P and S/D aren’t bad, you just have to ignore their dual skills most of the time (at least in PvP).

A lot of bad S/P builds come from people trying to shoehorn pistol whip into PvP effectiveness by stacking all kinds of quickness and immobilize. You can make it work, but at that point you might as well just use a backstab build. What people fail to realize is that #1,2,4,5 are all solid skills and S/P can run quite well without using PW at all.

S/P is serviceable, I admit – it’s just boring. Autoattack is your primary DPS source, and like you’ve said, your only using PW on rare occasions (or when you try to shoehorn it in with gimmicks)

S/D is as bad as I’ve described it. You’re playing a spec that plays exactly like D/D (Superior position required, stealth required, constantly in melee, gap closers cant be used in stealth) without any of the burst. You’ve traded backstab and heartseeker for tactical strike and infiltrators strike – very, very poor tradeoff.

Delete tactical strike.
Copy + paste Backstab.

evilapprentice.6379:

Tulisin.6945:

S/P and S/D aren’t bad, you just have to ignore their dual skills most of the time (at least in PvP).

A lot of bad S/P builds come from people trying to shoehorn pistol whip into PvP effectiveness by stacking all kinds of quickness and immobilize. You can make it work, but at that point you might as well just use a backstab build. What people fail to realize is that #1,2,4,5 are all solid skills and S/P can run quite well without using PW at all.

S/P is serviceable, I admit – it’s just boring. Autoattack is your primary DPS source, and like you’ve said, your only using PW on rare occasions (or when you try to shoehorn it in with gimmicks)

S/D is as bad as I’ve described it. You’re playing a spec that plays exactly like D/D (Superior position required, stealth required, constantly in melee, gap closers cant be used in stealth) without any of the burst. You’ve traded backstab and heartseeker for tactical strike and infiltrators strike – very, very poor tradeoff.

Not quite right. You’re playing a modified D/D.

You lose:

• Single-target back-stab
• Heartseeker (execution skill)

You gain:

• 2 second single-target daze
• Cleaving auto-attack (hit up to 3 enemies)
• Infiltrator’s Strike (unlimited stun-breakers)

Perhaps the situation is different in sPvP, where one cannot simply rely on equipment for burst damage. In WvW, S/D is vastly more powerful than D/D in a zerg; you’re unleashing your ridiculous burst DPS on 3 targets with simple auto-attacks, and your sneak attack is a 2 second Daze. It is perfect for denying revivals, or even downing the reviver if he underestimates your damage.

In WvW at least, it is a magnificent trade off.

Iohanna.4863:

You lose:

• Single-target back-stab
• Heartseeker (execution skill)

You gain:

• 2 second single-target daze
• Cleaving auto-attack (hit up to 3 enemies)
• Infiltrator’s Strike (unlimited stun-breakers)

This. S/D isn’t going to compare very well to D/D at the role of jumping onto individuals and bursting them down (assassin-type gameplay). S/D has a better control toolset, though, and leaves you more malleable. Infiltrator’s Strike alone means S/D is a better chasing weapon by far, and gives you options to lock down elementalists trying to mistform back inside a gate when downed, insta-close with enemy thieves the second they appear, etc. The combination of IF and sword auto’s cripple also means that once you’ve got someone locked into melee range it is much easier to maintain that range than it is with D/D, even if your opponent has a mobility advantage.

Flanking Strike is bad, but S/D isn’t completely useless. That said, I still prefer S/P simply because I’m not a fan of going deep Shadow Arts, which is where S/D’s access to organic stealth is really going to pay off.

Iohanna.4863:

evilapprentice.6379:

Tulisin.6945:

S/P and S/D aren’t bad, you just have to ignore their dual skills most of the time (at least in PvP).

A lot of bad S/P builds come from people trying to shoehorn pistol whip into PvP effectiveness by stacking all kinds of quickness and immobilize. You can make it work, but at that point you might as well just use a backstab build. What people fail to realize is that #1,2,4,5 are all solid skills and S/P can run quite well without using PW at all.

S/P is serviceable, I admit – it’s just boring. Autoattack is your primary DPS source, and like you’ve said, your only using PW on rare occasions (or when you try to shoehorn it in with gimmicks)

S/D is as bad as I’ve described it. You’re playing a spec that plays exactly like D/D (Superior position required, stealth required, constantly in melee, gap closers cant be used in stealth) without any of the burst. You’ve traded backstab and heartseeker for tactical strike and infiltrators strike – very, very poor tradeoff.

Not quite right. You’re playing a modified D/D.

You lose:

• Single-target back-stab
• Heartseeker (execution skill)

You gain:

• 2 second single-target daze
• Cleaving auto-attack (hit up to 3 enemies)
• Infiltrator’s Strike (unlimited stun-breakers)

Perhaps the situation is different in sPvP, where one cannot simply rely on equipment for burst damage. In WvW, S/D is vastly more powerful than D/D in a zerg; you’re unleashing your ridiculous burst DPS on 3 targets with simple auto-attacks, and your sneak attack is a 2 second Daze. It is perfect for denying revivals, or even downing the reviver if he underestimates your damage.

In WvW at least, it is a magnificent trade off.

I’m only talking from an sPvP standpoint. I’m not sure of the current state of PvE balance, but seeing as thats where ANet has decided to apply most of their resources, I can only assume its passable, and much stronger than PvP balance.

What it boils down to is, with sPvP gear choices, thieves can’t really straddle the “hybrid” line too much. We don’t have the HP, the access to defensive boons (especially protection and regen), or the access to Immune skills (“Oh kitten!” buttons) to take advantage of a setup with higher survivability and lower burst like other classes can. I’m not complaining about it, that’s just the way it is. Thieves tend to lose battles of attrition (excluding P/D condi setups, which are 100% designed for attrition) because we’re taking more damage, healing less, and have a lesser health pool.

S/D trades off a ton of damage for minor survivability boosts – Any way you look at it (in sPvP at least) it’s a losing proposition. That’s not to say every thief should go full GC – there’s merit to building a bit of survivability into any spec. If you take it too far though, you become ineffective.

Eggshen.2671:

I posted this on the “Thief Feedback” forum. At the risk of redundancy…

What’s up with Thieve’s weapon choices, or rather, lack thereof…

For me, the Thief’s biggest issue is weapon viability. Overall, it is 90% dagger/dagger. I would like to see the sword reworked to be a bit more effective, and have a benefit when used from stealth.

Also, using a sword in the offhand would be nifty too.

PS: Anyone use sword in a viable and fun build?

I run Sword/Pistol for PvE and WvW. My build focuses on increasing damage output and can easily crit other players for 14-20k damage in a single pistol whip. Not sure why so many thieves dislike, especially since you can move out of the animation at any time now. If you build yourself right then you won’t have any issues.

ensoriki.5789:

Delete tactical strike.
Copy + paste Backstab.

That’s not the point of my post at all – Tactical strike is just as hard to pull off as backstab, why not make them different-but-equal?

If ANet feels the initial daze time was too long, there’s a ton of ways to buff the skill that makes it different than backstab but just as effective.
1.) Add some additional conditions – Have tactical strike also weaken, poison or cripple the target.
2.) Grant boons on successful use – If ANet wants to keep S/D damage as low as it is, we’ll need the actual tools to play an attrition style build. Have Tac strike give Protection/Regen to the thief when used from the back arc.
3) Strip boons – Have the ability remove 1 boon when used from the front arc, and 3 when used from the back.

Any of these abilities (in addition to the daze) would make Tac strike a more effective skill (probably – of course playtesting would be required)

Tactical strike daze is deadly powerful. May interrupt healing, powerful channeling skill, stomping or reviving. However, it’s rather poor in PvE, but in PvE you don’t use stealth for offensive tactics anyway.

Dagins.5163:

Tactical strike daze is deadly powerful. May interrupt healing, powerful channeling skill, stomping or reviving. However, it’s rather poor in PvE, but in PvE you don’t use stealth for offensive tactics anyway.

Headshot does the same thing, at 900 range, instantly, with no stealth requirement and only minor positional requirements (don’t let another player or NPC block your HS path, as compared to being behind said target. The only thing Tac strike has on headshot is daze duration, and the downsides of S/D do not make up for it.

Raine Akrune.8416:

I run Sword/Pistol for PvE and WvW. My build focuses on increasing damage output and can easily crit other players for 14-20k damage in a single pistol whip. Not sure why so many thieves dislike, especially since you can move out of the animation at any time now. If you build yourself right then you won’t have any issues.

Could you post your build please?

Raine Akrune.8416:

I run Sword/Pistol for PvE and WvW. My build focuses on increasing damage output and can easily crit other players for 14-20k damage in a single pistol whip.

Sounds like you’re quoting damage to white con fauna like rabbits and raccoons getting in your way. Unless this is multiple targets cumulatively, I’m going to call (and I’m sure you’ll forgive me for this in time) BS.

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

Delete tactical strike.
Copy + paste Backstab.

That’s not the point of my post at all – Tactical strike is just as hard to pull off as backstab, why not make them different-but-equal?

If ANet feels the initial daze time was too long, there’s a ton of ways to buff the skill that makes it different than backstab but just as effective.
1.) Add some additional conditions – Have tactical strike also weaken, poison or cripple the target.
2.) Grant boons on successful use – If ANet wants to keep S/D damage as low as it is, we’ll need the actual tools to play an attrition style build. Have Tac strike give Protection/Regen to the thief when used from the back arc.
3) Strip boons – Have the ability remove 1 boon when used from the front arc, and 3 when used from the back.

Any of these abilities (in addition to the daze) would make Tac strike a more effective skill (probably – of course playtesting would be required)

I like these suggestions, Sword skills really need some love. I started with D/D but switched over to S/D with a more dodgy/tanky build, but S/D is not nearly as useless as you think in WvW situations.

rchu.8945:

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

Delete tactical strike.
Copy + paste Backstab.

That’s not the point of my post at all – Tactical strike is just as hard to pull off as backstab, why not make them different-but-equal?

If ANet feels the initial daze time was too long, there’s a ton of ways to buff the skill that makes it different than backstab but just as effective.
1.) Add some additional conditions – Have tactical strike also weaken, poison or cripple the target.
2.) Grant boons on successful use – If ANet wants to keep S/D damage as low as it is, we’ll need the actual tools to play an attrition style build. Have Tac strike give Protection/Regen to the thief when used from the back arc.
3) Strip boons – Have the ability remove 1 boon when used from the front arc, and 3 when used from the back.

Any of these abilities (in addition to the daze) would make Tac strike a more effective skill (probably – of course playtesting would be required)

I like these suggestions, Sword skills really need some love. I started with D/D but switched over to S/D with a more dodgy/tanky build, but S/D is not nearly as useless as you think in WvW situations.

I dont WvW at all – what is it that S/D offers that’s so great?

I can only imagine that fights last longer, and that thieves can more effectively hybrid without sacrificing too much damage (seeing as they arent limited to sPvP stat allocations), but even if that were the case, wouldn’t D/D and D/P still be better specs?

In WvW, I find S/D pretty decent. Ive run it 90% of the time for hte last 2 months.

Spec 10/30/30/0/0
Bersker armor + divinities (rubys worked too)
Sigil of paralyzation (3 second daze)
Sigil of Rage (haste) + traited for haste on crit.
Alt weaponset with 2 x sigil of perception, builds stacks very quick

Weakness i found with d/d is taking on multiple opponents and zergs, its very easy to down someone, but very difficult to actually stomp them. Its def more single target dmg than s/d.

But s/d is way more versatile. Use the on demand shadow step into a zerg, steal, cnd, dazed them. Now one of my 2 hastes or both are gonna go off with my 71% crit rate. Bam, AOE hasting sword, 3 dead guys. If they aint dead? On demand shadow step away. Rinse repeat.

See a thief tearing you friends up? Use the on demand shadow step + steal + cnd = dead thief from halfway accross the map.

Want to stomp the guy you jsut down but hes gona friends rezzing him? It can be difficult with single target Daggers. Sword? jump in the middle of the rez and kill them all.

Getting yer kitten handed to you and yer stunned? Shadowstep down? Teleport to a enemy/rabbit/etc with swords shadow step.

All S/D really needs is flanking strike to be tweaked and its far superior than D/D imho (In WVW).

In Spvp i am generally in the top scorer in pugs. But honestly i think D/D MIGHT be a little stronger (im only level 10 glory). Condition builds on teh other hand i think are stronger then both for pug matches.

Raine Akrune.8416:

Eggshen.2671:

I posted this on the “Thief Feedback” forum. At the risk of redundancy…

What’s up with Thieve’s weapon choices, or rather, lack thereof…

For me, the Thief’s biggest issue is weapon viability. Overall, it is 90% dagger/dagger. I would like to see the sword reworked to be a bit more effective, and have a benefit when used from stealth.

Also, using a sword in the offhand would be nifty too.

PS: Anyone use sword in a viable and fun build?

I run Sword/Pistol for PvE and WvW. My build focuses on increasing damage output and can easily crit other players for 14-20k damage in a single pistol whip. Not sure why so many thieves dislike, especially since you can move out of the animation at any time now. If you build yourself right then you won’t have any issues.

Yep…me too. Sword / Pistol is a good combo. I mostly pve with it though…stealth in, PW once…twice if I’m not taking too much dmg…stealth out and shortbow. Traited for 20 crit, 10 power and 14 toughness right now at lvl 54…darn few pve mobs I can’t take down.

I don’t pvp…and haven’t taken her into wvw yet….

Raine Akrune.8416:

I run Sword/Pistol for PvE and WvW. My build focuses on increasing damage output and can easily crit other players for 14-20k damage in a single pistol whip. Not sure why so many thieves dislike, especially since you can move out of the animation at any time now. If you build yourself right then you won’t have any issues.

Because by using PW instead of auto attack you trade DPS, mobility, and the conditions for hit volume/evade/interrupt, as well as having to pay the initiative cost. Most thieves don’t see it as a particularly great investment, especially since you have to invest even further to ensure it’ll actually hit anything in PvP. It has a place, but building around it just results in expending a ton of resources to do less damage than auto attack.

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

Delete tactical strike.
Copy + paste Backstab.

That’s not the point of my post at all – Tactical strike is just as hard to pull off as backstab, why not make them different-but-equal?

If ANet feels the initial daze time was too long, there’s a ton of ways to buff the skill that makes it different than backstab but just as effective.
1.) Add some additional conditions – Have tactical strike also weaken, poison or cripple the target.
2.) Grant boons on successful use – If ANet wants to keep S/D damage as low as it is, we’ll need the actual tools to play an attrition style build. Have Tac strike give Protection/Regen to the thief when used from the back arc.
3) Strip boons – Have the ability remove 1 boon when used from the front arc, and 3 when used from the back.

Any of these abilities (in addition to the daze) would make Tac strike a more effective skill (probably – of course playtesting would be required)

Im not saying that is your point.
I’m pointing how ridiculous the current state of affairs is.
Backstab isn’t some complimentary skill, you slap it on any of the melee sets and they fit the same roll perfectly, single target burst. Especially granted the similar damage of our auto attacks. Only difference is you’d port out with Shadow return instead of HS.

I rather we have less emphasis on stealth skills. So far outside of SB they were all silly as I saw it. Press 5, press 1. Everything else on your bar is just to i) keep you alive, or ii) assist you in doing that. Except for the shortbow, S/P and P/P just because they don’t have that much access.

Rinzler.8072:

In WvW, I find S/D pretty decent. Ive run it 90% of the time for hte last 2 months.

Spec 10/30/30/0/0
Bersker armor + divinities (rubys worked too)
Sigil of paralyzation (3 second daze)
Sigil of Rage (haste) + traited for haste on crit.
Alt weaponset with 2 x sigil of perception, builds stacks very quick

Weakness i found with d/d is taking on multiple opponents and zergs, its very easy to down someone, but very difficult to actually stomp them. Its def more single target dmg than s/d.

But s/d is way more versatile. Use the on demand shadow step into a zerg, steal, cnd, dazed them. Now one of my 2 hastes or both are gonna go off with my 71% crit rate. Bam, AOE hasting sword, 3 dead guys. If they aint dead? On demand shadow step away. Rinse repeat.

See a thief tearing you friends up? Use the on demand shadow step + steal + cnd = dead thief from halfway accross the map.

Want to stomp the guy you jsut down but hes gona friends rezzing him? It can be difficult with single target Daggers. Sword? jump in the middle of the rez and kill them all.

Getting yer kitten handed to you and yer stunned? Shadowstep down? Teleport to a enemy/rabbit/etc with swords shadow step.

All S/D really needs is flanking strike to be tweaked and its far superior than D/D imho (In WVW).

In Spvp i am generally in the top scorer in pugs. But honestly i think D/D MIGHT be a little stronger (im only level 10 glory). Condition builds on teh other hand i think are stronger then both for pug matches.

Yeaaaaah, the stat differences are astounding. Then of course there’s the PvE/PvP Daze difference (WvW gets 2s, PvP gets 1.5) which I forgot about. That spec won’t perform at anywhere near the same level in tPvP.

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

Delete tactical strike.
Copy + paste Backstab.

That’s not the point of my post at all – Tactical strike is just as hard to pull off as backstab, why not make them different-but-equal?

If ANet feels the initial daze time was too long, there’s a ton of ways to buff the skill that makes it different than backstab but just as effective.
1.) Add some additional conditions – Have tactical strike also weaken, poison or cripple the target.
2.) Grant boons on successful use – If ANet wants to keep S/D damage as low as it is, we’ll need the actual tools to play an attrition style build. Have Tac strike give Protection/Regen to the thief when used from the back arc.
3) Strip boons – Have the ability remove 1 boon when used from the front arc, and 3 when used from the back.

Any of these abilities (in addition to the daze) would make Tac strike a more effective skill (probably – of course playtesting would be required)

Im not saying that is your point.
I’m pointing how ridiculous it is.
The reality isn’t that Backstab or Tactical are some skills that compliment their sets, they aren’t. You could literally copy + paste backstab onto S/D and it would take the same roll as D/D thieves. f1, cnd, Backstab. Only difference is you’d escape with shadow return in exchange for hs spam.

They should be putting less emphasis on Stealth attacks not more, their kitten linear by design. Putting the bread and butter of S/D into Tactical strike, just makes it just as mindless as everything else. Period.

Well, your overall point seems to be “Make thieves less stealth reliant”. That’s a point I wont agree or disagree with, but you’re basically asking “Re-design thieves from the ground up”, and as ANet has proven they can’t fix minor pre-existing bugs that have been around since launch, or change traits around correctly without kittening it up, I don’t expect you’ll see a thief redesign before 2020.

Nothing about from the ground up. It’s just pointing out what it is. You put the emphasis on Tactical strike, Sneak attack and Backstab you’re going to bore yourself with “5,1” play. Except D/D in that regard since LDB is good for bleeds.

Eggshen.2671:

I posted this on the “Thief Feedback” forum. At the risk of redundancy…

What’s up with Thieve’s weapon choices, or rather, lack thereof…

For me, the Thief’s biggest issue is weapon viability. Overall, it is 90% dagger/dagger. I would like to see the sword reworked to be a bit more effective, and have a benefit when used from stealth.

Also, using a sword in the offhand would be nifty too.

PS: Anyone use sword in a viable and fun build?

DO NOT touch sword. It is the weapon choice of pro thieves and separates the men from the boys. I would absolutely hate it if all the scrubs currently using D/D suddenly found sword builds playable.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dagins.5163:

Tactical strike daze is deadly powerful. May interrupt healing, powerful channeling skill, stomping or reviving. However, it’s rather poor in PvE, but in PvE you don’t use stealth for offensive tactics anyway.

Headshot does the same thing, at 900 range, instantly, with no stealth requirement and only minor positional requirements (don’t let another player or NPC block your HS path, as compared to being behind said target. The only thing Tac strike has on headshot is daze duration, and the downsides of S/D do not make up for it.

Headshot it unreliable with pistol MH, deals no damage, eats 4 ini, and as you mentioned, can be blocked by minions or other players. Vulnerable to aegis and blind.

Tactical strike is 100% reliable once you close range, doesn’t reduce damage output so drastically, ignores aegis and blind (if hits player with aegis or while blinded, doesn’t break stealth, so you can hit them again), and with 30 shadow arts can be just spammed to gain strong healing and might.

These two abilities differs so much. I don’t say headshot is worse, because it’s awesome and I use it a lot, but tactical strike is far superior in many ways.

Dagins.5163:

Headshot is unreliable with pistol MH

One of the many reasons that P/P isn’t very good. Luckily Headshot is not tied to pistol mainhand, so it isn’t really relevant in evaluating how good Headshot it.

Is Tactical Strike strong? Sure. But it isn’t as good as Headshot for the quick interrupt role simply because Tactical Strike requires way, way more setup. Try as you might, you cannot react to a 1 second channel by using a combo that takes over a second to execute, even if you were pre-positioned for it. TS may be a better skill, but it isn’t better at this role.

Rinzler.8072:

In WvW, I find S/D pretty decent. Ive run it 90% of the time for hte last 2 months.

Spec 10/30/30/0/0
Bersker armor + divinities (rubys worked too)
Sigil of paralyzation (3 second daze)
Sigil of Rage (haste) + traited for haste on crit.
Alt weaponset with 2 x sigil of perception, builds stacks very quick

Tactikal strike has 1.5s daze and Sigil of paralyzation increase STUN duration no DAZE.

Evilek.5690:

Rinzler.8072:

In WvW, I find S/D pretty decent. Ive run it 90% of the time for hte last 2 months.

Spec 10/30/30/0/0
Bersker armor + divinities (rubys worked too)
Sigil of paralyzation (3 second daze)
Sigil of Rage (haste) + traited for haste on crit.
Alt weaponset with 2 x sigil of perception, builds stacks very quick

Tactikal strike has 1.5s daze and Sigil of paralyzation increase STUN duration no DAZE.

He is talking about WvW, which is under PvE rules. So it’s a 2 second daze.

Boosts to stun duration apparently also apply to Daze duration.

Equipping a Superior Sigil of Paralyzation makes Tactical Strike a 3 second daze (should be 2.3 seconds, but it apparently rounds up – you can check this yourself, the sigils are dirt cheap).

It is unwise to completely trust tool-tips.

If that is true … I need to get a cheap sword to test this. Does it stack with the mesmer runes? And if you’re correct on the rounding, a minor sigil would have the same effect?
Edit: Seems to work as you claim.

frans.8092:

If that is true … I need to get a cheap sword to test this. Does it stack with the mesmer runes? And if you’re correct on the rounding, a minor sigil would have the same effect?
Edit: Seems to work as you claim.

It will stack with Mesmer Runes, but I imagine the only time you’d need to do that is in sPvP, to cross the >2.0 second threshold.

It is redundant to do so in PvE, you’ll only reach 2.96 seconds. Sorry, no 4 second dazes.

Tulisin.6945:

Is Tactical Strike strong? Sure. But it isn’t as good as Headshot for the quick interrupt role simply because Tactical Strike requires way, way more setup. Try as you might, you cannot react to a 1 second channel by using a combo that takes over a second to execute, even if you were pre-positioned for it.

When people see a thief going stealth for a few seconds, they usually spend this time using heal, because it’s the only thing they can do besides AoE. That means, C&D encourages them to heal, and tactical strike interrupts it. With shadow arts 15, C&D stealth lasts 4 seconds, and with acribatics 10 (fleet shadow) you will pretty much always land it.

Iohanna.4863:

Evilek.5690:

Rinzler.8072:

In WvW, I find S/D pretty decent. Ive run it 90% of the time for hte last 2 months.

Spec 10/30/30/0/0
Bersker armor + divinities (rubys worked too)
Sigil of paralyzation (3 second daze)
Sigil of Rage (haste) + traited for haste on crit.
Alt weaponset with 2 x sigil of perception, builds stacks very quick

Tactikal strike has 1.5s daze and Sigil of paralyzation increase STUN duration no DAZE.

He is talking about WvW, which is under PvE rules. So it’s a 2 second daze.

Boosts to stun duration apparently also apply to Daze duration.

Equipping a Superior Sigil of Paralyzation makes Tactical Strike a 3 second daze (should be 2.3 seconds, but it apparently rounds up – you can check this yourself, the sigils are dirt cheap).

It is unwise to completely trust tool-tips.

yep,

this is 100% correct. I have 2 swords, one with Superior Sigil of Paralyzation and another with +5% dmg with off-hand dagger with Sigil of fire. This definitely works in WvW.

I would absolutely LOVE to be able to roll S/D on my Thief, but the DPS dropoff in PvE is way too large. The fact is that without Flanking Strike working as it should on paper, S/D doesn’t have an initiative dump for damage like D/D has with C&D AND Heartseeker.

On paper:
S/D – C&D/TS (504 + 302, 6 init, daze), Flanking Strike (252+504 damage, 4 init, -1 boon)
D/D – C&D/BS (504 + 806, 6 init), Heartseeker (504 to 672 damage, 3 init)

Looks reasonable, right? Except Flanking Strike next to never hits on the second part, making it 252 damage for 504. You’re now looking at having to spend 6 initiative to do the same damage as just the Backstab that D/D has, without even mentioning how D/D can spam Heartseeker when the enemy’s sub 25%.

I get that S/D should have less DPS than D/D due to greater control, but the dropoff in PvE is HUGE. My suggestion is that ANet fix Flanking Strike so the animation is more reliable (maybe have it mirror Death Blossom, but two hits?), which by itself will be a huge DPS boost.

My take on Sword as a thief.

It is NOT a “Pro” weapon choice. It is merely an EASIER way to play a thief.

I stay dagger at this juncture b/c

1. I hate pve and buying new equipment is tehsuq

2. I really like killing people in the middle of a zerg. (Stomp and all)

D/D has the fast TTK out of all our weapon sets. It is also the easiest countered weapon set that thieves possess. There are so many cons to running D/D compared to the other weapon sets…..its not even funny.

I have tons of more respect for a thief that is using D/D and taking on multiple opponents than a S/D P/D D/P etc.

You all can disagree and post w/e you want, but the truth is the truth.

Jinks.2057:

You all can disagree and post w/e you want, but the truth is the truth.

Done and done.

Dagins.5163:

When people see a thief going stealth for a few seconds, they usually spend this time using heal, because it’s the only thing they can do besides AoE. That means, C&D encourages them to heal, and tactical strike interrupts it. With shadow arts 15, C&D stealth lasts 4 seconds, and with acribatics 10 (fleet shadow) you will pretty much always land it.

So your point is that TS is better because people don’t know what they’re doing against thieves? When a thief stealths is a really terrible time to burn a heal.

I’ll amend my statement: Against a competent opponent, headshot fills the role far better because you’re proactively taking an action instead of hoping your opponent makes a mistake you can exploit.

Tulisin.6945:

Dagins.5163:

When people see a thief going stealth for a few seconds, they usually spend this time using heal, because it’s the only thing they can do besides AoE. That means, C&D encourages them to heal, and tactical strike interrupts it. With shadow arts 15, C&D stealth lasts 4 seconds, and with acribatics 10 (fleet shadow) you will pretty much always land it.

So your point is that TS is better because people don’t know what they’re doing against thieves? When a thief stealths is a really terrible time to burn a heal.

I’ll amend my statement: Against a competent opponent, headshot fills the role far better because you’re proactively taking an action instead of hoping your opponent makes a mistake you can exploit.

Tulisin, Headshot is definitely more responsive than Tactical Strike. However like C&D and BP+HS, they fulfill slightly different roles.

Tactical Strike dazes your target for 3 seconds (with Sigil of Para.), the downside being that you must execute it from stealth in melee range. This will shut down almost any single target.

Headshot is better for single-instance-ASAP interruption; it’s much easier to stop a stomp or a heal with a Headshot. However, it is not something you can sustainably continue dishing out (Tactical Strike can pretty much perma-daze a target).

Dagin’s point is relevant, even against a competent player. There really is nothing to do except auto-attack, set traps, set fields and heal up when an enemy Thief stealths. Trying to catch the Thief with non-spammable AOEs is very unwise. This is part of why Tactical Strike is so powerful.

You forgot, Dodging, putting up stability, blocking, aegis, Invulnerability/evade skills like Quickshot or Blurred Frenzy, activating pet skills such as the Wolf Fear and blinding through skills such as Plague or Black Powder. As well as moving to delay the attack and to possibly stop the daze through normal movement or even Leaps and teleports.

ensoriki.5789:

You forgot, Dodging, putting up stability, blocking, aegis, Invulnerability/evade skills like Quickshot or Blurred Frenzy, activating pet skills such as the Wolf Fear and blinding through skills such as Plague or Black Powder. As well as moving to delay the attack and to possibly stop the daze through normal movement or even Leaps and teleports.

Aside from dodging and Black Powder, these defensive measures aren’t cheap right (not spammable)?

If a Thief is forcing you to use expensive defenses with something as cheap as C&D + Tactical Strike, they are probably winning (probably, because different situations have different objectives).

Do remember that a Thief is never revealed until they deal damage. Aegis, dodging, blinding and so on will not force a Thief out of stealth, and they will be free to continue trying to land Tactical Strike or Backstab on you. The only exception to this rule is a Warrior or Ranger’s pseudo-invulnerability, which only mitigates damage down to 0 as opposed to outright blocking damage.

Iohanna.4863:

Tulisin, Headshot is definitely more responsive than Tactical Strike. However like C&D and BP+HS, they fulfill slightly different roles.

They do, but the exchange was specifically referring to the role of an on-demand interrupt and nothing else.

Do remember stealth does not last forever, and each block and miss waste that time allowing them to counter attack, hence the relevancy. Defenses were meant to be utilized, if they’re using them, just means they’re fighting back, using them doesn’t equate to us winning anymore than using Stealth suddenly equates to use losing.

At the behest of these “pro” thieves, would like to see some quality of life improvements to the S/D set.