Guild Wars 2

I’m unfortunately not enjoying my thief in terms of PvE, I mean, at all. I actually loathe it and it’s probably the most miserable class design I’ve ever come across. This maybe due to me, maybe not, let’s iron this out and perhaps I can come away from this thread with some ideas going forward…

None of the builds feel very strong or give a true sense of focus to a given aspect of the thief. This makes me feel like a “jack-of-all-trades” type of character however rather than being good at anything, I’m poor at all with success involving a very careful approach of multiple styles.

This brings me to another argument; I find the thief incredibly boring as a result. It’s just bland as could be with very little reward for the effort you put into it. You’re taking down mobs slower than most people as a heavy damage build, then if you try to balance into defense more for further survival it just goes to waste as you tend to burn all of your tricks rapidly with a very low rate of return damage.

So, here are my questions to the thieving community.

• Are my feelings by and large the same for many?

• Is it a kitteny class, does it lack in flare versus the other profession choices in the game?

• Am I better off jumping ship until overhauls can be made?

• Perhaps I am just not getting the gist of the entire design of the character and therefore it feels clunky and frustrating?

Looking at re-rolling unfortunately as it stands. First high-level(74) and I feel completely underwhelmed by what I am seeing out of this profession. Basically looking for other thoughts to help me make the final decision on the matter. :\

Downside of thief pve is that you either need to be much more active (because mistakes go harder on thieves) than most other classes or have a very specialized build for some purpose with good gear to be able to do it with some degree of easiness.
Sadly it is more about the design of the weapon skills and other limitations introduced in gw2 than just a thief problem. I suggest shortbowing your way through everything until you can be confident in your understanding of other weapon sets such as d/d 3rd skill, s/p 3rd and 5th skill.
Until then shortbow + caltrops + speed signet and maybe shadow refuge or ambush trap is the easiest way. If you can avoid fighting much ranged mobs.

Ichishi.9613:

Downside of thief pve is that you either need to be much more active (because mistakes go harder on thieves) than most other classes or have a very specialized build for some purpose with good gear to be able to do it with some degree of easiness.
Sadly it is more about the design of the weapon skills and other limitations introduced in gw2 than just a thief problem. I suggest shortbowing your way through everything until you can be confident in your understanding of other weapon sets such as d/d 3rd skill, s/p 3rd and 5th skill.
Until then shortbow + caltrops + speed signet and maybe shadow refuge or ambush trap is the easiest way. If you can avoid fighting much ranged mobs.

Here is the problem, I can us the d/d setup fine but it’s never enough. Things attack me too rapidly at this point, I burn through my initiative even with initiative returning traits. This includes dodging and every other method to avoid/mitigate damage. Then to boot when I do get hit, even as a tankier build, it’s like getting hit by a freight train.

The entire time my damage, regardless of focus, is piss poor and doesn’t output enough to make for the tiring attempt of survival each and every basic fight.

So far two weapon setups are all that I see as somewhat viable in PvE. P/P with constant strafing and back-pedaling(it outputs decent damage compared to the bow which takes eons) and s/p—the ability to nearly consistently spam your evade/multi-attack move along with decent damage actually makes it pretty effective.

Here is the problem with both builds, they’re still kitteny and boring as hell. I honestly don’t mind having to think through things and be quick on my feet. It just feels as if there are no returns for the effort—do you get what I mean? Other classes, when I observe them, seem to be much more diverse and capable of handling themselves.

The thief on the other hand seems to be designed for the masochist.

As much as I hate to say it, you’re right. In fact, I’d even go so far as to agree with you on the masochist comment. Thieves are probably the hardest and potentially most boring class to PvE with, and that’s saying something. My main is a level 48 Thief with 260 hours put into it, but most of that is sPvP simply because I find PvE too unrewarding.

Well, reading further through the forum and seeing a couple of reactions to this post—re-rolling might be a good idea.

Anyone familiar with the engineer? I’m not looking for the most “OP” class in the game, I just want something fun and versatile for a change. You don’t know how close I was to quitting until I came to the theory that it might have more to do with my profession choice than anything else.

You know, this is actually not just pve issue. It is the fatal flaw of the class atm that results in it being able to perform at high levels (of gameplay) only as a pure damage. Basically, farthest you can go as a thief in pve is full glass cannon d/d or p/p. This will create some incredible difficulties but will at least reward you with sweet numbers and fast kills outside dungeons
Engineer is probably the most fun prof atm. Even with downside of amount of weapon sets, engineer brings more than anyone into play

Ichishi

Basically, farthest you can go as a thief in pve is full glass cannon d/d or p/p.

D/D and P/P are, in my experience, probably the weakest possible PvE setups just due to their lack of AE capability.

Thief PvE is as easy as gathering tons of mobs, using Signet of Malice, and using AE abilities.

The OP is right on the money here though:

You’re taking down mobs slower than most people as a heavy damage build, then if you try to balance into defense more for further survival it just goes to waste as you tend to burn all of your tricks rapidly with a very low rate of return damage.

This is why you shouldn’t spec heavy defense in open-world PvE as a thief. Build heavy offense, play actively, and kill enemies before they have much of a chance to do anything to you. The average fight for me at 80 with S/D consists of jumping into a group of mobs and walking around spamming #1 + dodge until they’re all dead. Veterans get C&D+daze, and C&D is used for a quick aggro wipe whenever things look bleak. With S/P it is even easier. Grab mobs, kite them into a ball, and use pistol whip 2-3 times. Either way takes a few seconds and is relatively risk-free. Thief PvE is not hard unless you make it hard by trying to bring PvP tactics into PvE.

Tulisin.6945:

Ichishi

Basically, farthest you can go as a thief in pve is full glass cannon d/d or p/p.

D/D and P/P are, in my experience, probably the weakest possible PvE setups just due to their lack of AE capability.

Thief PvE is as easy as gathering tons of mobs, using Signet of Malice, and using AE abilities.

The OP is right on the money here though:

You’re taking down mobs slower than most people as a heavy damage build, then if you try to balance into defense more for further survival it just goes to waste as you tend to burn all of your tricks rapidly with a very low rate of return damage.

This is why you shouldn’t spec heavy defense in open-world PvE as a thief. Build heavy offense, play actively, and kill enemies before they have much of a chance to do anything to you. The average fight for me at 80 with S/D consists of jumping into a group of mobs and walking around spamming #1 + dodge until they’re all dead. Veterans get C&D+daze, and C&D is used for a quick aggro wipe whenever things look bleak. With S/P it is even easier. Grab mobs, kite them into a ball, and use pistol whip 2-3 times. Either way takes a few seconds and is relatively risk-free. Thief PvE is not hard unless you make it hard by trying to bring PvP tactics into PvE.

I actually already brought your point up and disregarded as enormously boring and dull. The fact that it is the only real reliable means by which to PvE gives credit to the idea the thief was poorly designed from the get-go.

In all honesty, what PvP I did do didn’t feel much better either to boot. Very limited scope of operations, just a REALLY goofy design philosophy behind it with virtually no options beyond a given path or two. Thief PvP’ing strategy; work harder than everyone else only to still get little reward for it—brilliant.

If it was originally up to me I wouldn’t have brought any kind of a “rogue” class to the game unless I was willing to HEAVILY emphasize certain build concepts—such as poisons, evasion, and crit damage to the extreme. Instead every route is a weak, fumbling mess. Support wouldn’t have even been a desired build therefore focus could be put more into damage/personal mitigation making the thief a more “rogue-ish” class as it should be.

The lack of a trinity in this game seems to have done as much damage to it as its benefited from it. It looks like the developers didn’t even know how to entirely approach this new concept. It is literally impossible to blend the support/damage/tank concept into every class because then you either end up homogenizing them or having massive headaches like the thief.

…By which could have been solved by simply making it the rare class that emphasizes damage with virtually no support and only personal mitigation/evasions. Boohoo, we can’t fit multiple roles, big deal—most people who roll thief anticipated a more damage, self-serving focus to begin with. At least we’d be good at SOMETHING!

A lack of emphasis on the “holy trinity” does not mean every class needs to have the defense/offense/support branches—you can have exceptions.

I think the profession might just not be for you. You found it unfun and limited in PvE and PvP, whereas many people have found a multitude of fun and viable builds in both.

Tulisin.6945:

I think the profession might just not be for you. You found it unfun and limited in PvE and PvP, whereas many people have found a multitude of fun and viable builds in both.

You’re the first I’ve seen say this thus far. I find it humorous that rogue-like classes have been a favorite of mine for many MMO titles and this one completely mutilated them for me.

I don’t think it’s me that has the problem quite frankly. Not trying to be snooty but I am pissed off.

The thief’s design lends itself well to fighting ‘hard’ targets, with its combination of evasive skills and damage compression. It is very good at this job.

Unfortunately most of PvE is clearing trash. While clearing trash you care little about damage compression (which is good for bursting down a priority target), instead wanting DPS to speed up elite trash, and AoE damage for clearing/tagging swarm trash. You also do not want to dodge anything, since evasion is time you could be spending applying DPS.

You shouldn’t have any actual problems clearing all of the PvE world with a thief, as you have more than enough raw power to roll over trash with most anything, but if you want to have the easiest time possible, roll a warrior. That class is built for PvE, with lots of long term DPS abilities and natural tankiness instead of mobility.

No you’re right, the only way to build a viable thief in PvE is to go glass cannon and hope you don’t get hit. Thanks to many of the nerfs called for by the PvP community, the PvE thief is extremely frail and cannot hold a candle to most of the other classes at higher levels. This is what happens when ANET decides to favor the PvP players with all their complaints while basically ignoring what they already figured out in GW1…. separate PvP and PvE skills and abilities.
Unfortunately there’s not much hope for us. All the “balancing” Anet has done so far are by and large nerfs so that balancing is easier on them. The problem is, by nerfing everything into oblivion the game becomes more boring and bland by the week. It may be more difficult to make weapons and abilities fun, versatile and fluid (a.k.a. the old Guardian GS) but bringing all the fun / dynamic abilities down to the level of the bland ones that don’t change the flow of combat at all…. that’s never the way to go. I had faith in this game, but the way it’s being tweaked is in the complete opposite direction of what a fun game would be. Hate to say this but i’m really looking forward to a new mmo soon.

FWB.1704:

No you’re right, the only way to build a viable thief in PvE is to go glass cannon and hope you don’t get hit. Thanks to many of the nerfs called for by the PvP community, the PvE thief is extremely frail and cannot hold a candle to most of the other classes at higher levels. This is what happens when ANET decides to favor the PvP players with all their complaints while basically ignoring what they already figured out in GW1…. separate PvP and PvE skills and abilities.
Unfortunately there’s not much hope for us. All the “balancing” Anet has done so far are by and large nerfs so that balancing is easier on them. The problem is, by nerfing everything into oblivion the game becomes more boring and bland by the week. It may be more difficult to make weapons and abilities fun, versatile and fluid (a.k.a. the old Guardian GS) but bringing all the fun / dynamic abilities down to the level of the bland ones that don’t change the flow of combat at all…. that’s never the way to go. I had faith in this game, but the way it’s being tweaked is in the complete opposite direction of what a fun game would be. Hate to say this but i’m really looking forward to a new mmo soon.

I think this game could be excellent if they’re willing to go the extra mile. Just nerfing stuff rather than reinventing a given spell or two isn’t the way to go. I can tell you right now, the thief is probably going to be the most unpopular class in this game because it is so dull and unrewarding. You don’t accomplish improving upon it by nerfing it further.

Was so excited for the earlier premise of the thief funny enough. “Oh, a more immersive, evasion-based rogue, that’ll be nice!” Come to find out it’s all gimmicks and a nightmare at best. Half the time I fight someone in PvP they just spam the same two moves and try to keep distance.

I’m utilizing everything in my arsenal just to survive! X)

80 thief speaking here. Having no trouble clearing mobs in PvE with only 25 points in defensive traits. Never really had a big problem with PvE, even with dungeons (although I have yet to do much PvP/WvW). It is possible you are building incorrectly, but I doubt that is the issue. Maybe your having an issue with the mechanics, again though I doubt that is the issue. I cant tell what is the problem here, except that maybe you feel viable build is “boring”, which is most likely the case. I can assure you though, the Thief is not under-powered in PvE or dungeons by any length at all.

Here is my opinion for whatever its worth:

I find soloing 3-5 lvl 80 mobs as a thief quite easy. AE damage skills/caltrops etc with pistol whip best I can tell is about as good as it gets in game for pve trash. Managing initiative for me seems fine. Stamina for our class seems under par however, especially in harder group content or fighting bosses…

Doing events like COE for the thief class I find pretty brutal. You have to work VERY hard to constantly drop aggro, evade and position. I get that this is a “characteristic” they have deliberately built into the class … but after taking my thief to 80, maxing all skills and putting on top gear … I am still struggling more on my thief then other classes. I have played with some PHENOMINAL thiefs who have really mastered game positioning and movement, much better than I have. I will tell you, that makes a huge difference in PVE hard content. If stam was about double current amount, it would help.

Overall I am not as negative about the class as you are. I would like to see the class have more upside for what I see as more challenging play style.

In general, I have found GW2 to be incredibly well done. Graphics, game mechanics, story line are all excellent. I have never played a game where class balance and builds werent always a big debate.

I do think you should try another class. My mechanic is pretty fun, and I had never really played a class similiar … but I still find myself coming back to the thief. What really improved my thief was playing an elementalist for a while lol

BrianCushing.5304:

Here is my opinion for whatever its worth:

I find soloing 3-5 lvl 80 mobs as a thief quite easy. AE damage skills/caltrops etc with pistol whip best I can tell is about as good as it gets in game for pve trash. Managing initiative for me seems fine. Stamina for our class seems under par however, especially in harder group content or fighting bosses…

Doing events like COE for the thief class I find pretty brutal. You have to work VERY hard to constantly drop aggro, evade and position. I get that this is a “characteristic” they have deliberately built into the class … but after taking my thief to 80, maxing all skills and putting on top gear … I am still struggling more on my thief then other classes. I have played with some PHENOMINAL thiefs who have really mastered game positioning and movement, much better than I have. I will tell you, that makes a huge difference in PVE hard content. If stam was about double current amount, it would help.

Overall I am not as negative about the class as you are. I would like to see the class have more upside for what I see as more challenging play style.

In general, I have found GW2 to be incredibly well done. Graphics, game mechanics, story line are all excellent. I have never played a game where class balance and builds werent always a big debate.

I do think you should try another class. My mechanic is pretty fun, and I had never really played a class similiar … but I still find myself coming back to the thief. What really improved my thief was playing an elementalist for a while lol

The thief is really just a bore and I honestly don’t know how you’re getting any damage out of it. I can go all 30-30-15 into the damage branches, wear nothing but pow, con, and prec gear and it feels like I am throwing pebbles at enemies. This is glaringly frustrating using daggers which require you to get close—yet don’t make up for it in burst.

Seriously, my Mesmer can burn down targets much more efficiently, several in fact, without even getting touched. A class that requires skill but rewards it well. The thief feels opposite of that, it requires skill still, yes, but completely fails to deliver reward. In fact most of the time I don’t feel like a thief or rogue-like class. Just some ’ kitten unloading shots from pistols all day.

Again, how you’re getting any kind of damage worth noting is beyond me and how you’re enjoying it is even more perplexing considering there is no synergy there.

Oh there’s synergy but it’s all very linear do this to do this to do this to do this. Deviate and die.

You’re right the thief is boring but it’s not bad at pve, I can solo champion mobs for god’s sake and the only time I have trouble is when I start ignoring creeps (because they all hook me as I run past, which it turn makes life hell because I now have 6 mobs spread out and beating on me).

Someone had to explain this to me repeatedly before I really, truly understood it. Getting it has allowed me to actually learn things while playing GW2, and made the game a much more enjoyable experience:
GW2 is about dealing damage and avoiding it. Actually getting hit is almost always a losing proposition. All of the worthwhile defense in the game is active.

Every class does better with active defense. What makes thief great for PvE is that it’s easy to pile on both damage and active defense. You have so much dodging, you have spammable blindness, you have amazing projectile defense — while still being able to play a character with something like 100 crit damage, 3000 attack power, and several +% damage multipliers from traits, with great single- and muli- targeted attack skills and no cooldowns getting in your way.

Leveling with Sword/Pistol was definitely a bit repetitive. Then I crafted some Zerk gear (which also allowed me to spend less time leveling), learned how to Smoke Screen, and got good enough at dodging not to rely on Black Powder (the Dredge are great training for this). Now playing a thief is an absolutely awesome experience. Trash fights are over before they can get stale; big pulls and dynamic events give me lots of opportunity for satisfying positional tactical play; I contribute massively to every group event and dungeon. PvE thief isn’t about evading/blind-spamming one target to death; it’s about pulling 10 guys and butchering them like you’re a ninja murdergod from some action movie.

Maybe the playstyle’s not for you. That’s why the game has classes to begin with. But is the thief weak, bad at PvE, or poorly designed? Absolutely not. Not even a little.

ASP, if all people knew this, not just some rare pve thieves, we would have a second top tier competetive mmo already.

I’m leveling a Thief currently, and find myself going back and forth on it. I feel I’m pretty skilled with it, to be honest, and in some situations I find it to be pretty balanced and in others I’m like “wow, thieves really have the short end of the stick”.

I’ve stated this in other threads, but I’ll reiterate here. I think the two biggest problems facing thieves are the following:

1. The initiative system and stealth combine to make them easy-griefers in PvP. Instead of finding ways to counteract only that (like fixing the rendering issue), they are getting nerfed in broad strokes that affect their already rather poor and relatively skill-intensive PvE capabilities.

2. Stealth and debuff timers/durations are balanced for PvP, making them inadequate for PvE where longer durations are needed to provide reliable utility and the ability to escape danger and mitigate damage. It’s especially important for the thief class because of how squishy they are and how they have no mechanic like pets to help them avoid or transfer aggro.

As examples of the second reason, the #3 downed skill which should be a fairly reliable aggro dump is all but entirely useless due to the extremely short stealth duration. This combined with the relative weakness of #1 makes the thief downed set frustratingly terrible in PvE. Another is Basilisk Venom, the 1.5 seconds of petrify is laughable in how trash it is in almost any PvE situation (even with Venom sharing it’s only mediocre) and it’s the only elite available underwater. In short, debuff and stealth durations should be longer in PvE than they are in PvP.

Having said all that, the higher level I get I do find that thieves are not as bad as I originally thought they were. There is definitely a component of L2P involved, and some of their individual traits and skills (like Caltrops) make a huge, huge difference when you obtain them. I would suggest going S/P with Signet of Malice for healing and Caltrops for utility and seeing how that treats you.

ASP.8093:

thief isn’t about evading/blind-spamming one target to death; it’s about pulling 10 guys and butchering them like you’re a ninja murdergod from some action movie.

You can do this, I have – I’m ah bit of ah glass cannon, but things don’ hit me much, because I move all the time; never stand still if you’re playin’ a thief.

An’ sayin’ we’re master’s of nothin’ an’ bad at everything is wrong – we’re decent at most everything, just not the best. You talk about havin’ ta swap out weapons in fights to have a chance – do it. The Thief is built around ideas like that … move in an’ out of range fast; get close ta ranged mobs an’ distant from melee, we’ve got skills ta make that happen.

A really good Thief is manic on the field, you gotta be active in movin’ not just in how you use yer skills – which, by the way, if ya choose the right skills the Thief effectively gets 5 dodges, ta most everyone else’s 2-3, before she runs out a stamina.

In one on one combat the Thief is a monster – with the right build I can tear down a heavy, (not the word I’m lookin’ for, but I’m tired) creature in seconds. This is one ah the problems the PvP whiners have – because between that an’ the renderin’ problem on stealth, (all stealth, not just ours) we can be pretty nasty. But nerfin’ our other skills to make up for their code problem is just gonna kill us in PvE, I wish they’d see that …

So, what it comes down to, is Thief isn’ borin’, you’re just playin’ it in a borin’ way. Get more active, get wild, change yer skills up and build them around yer weapon choice an’ play style.

Einlanzer

2. Stealth and debuff timers/durations are balanced for PvP, making them inadequate for PvE where longer durations are needed to provide reliable utility and the ability to escape danger and mitigate damage. It’s especially important for the thief class because of how squishy they are and how they have no mechanic like pets to help them avoid or transfer aggro.
As examples of the second reason, the #3 downed skill which should be a fairly reliable aggro dump is all but entirely useless due to the extremely short stealth duration. This combined with the relative weakness of #1 makes the thief downed set frustratingly terrible in PvE. Another is Basilisk Venom, the 1.5 seconds of petrify is laughable in how trash it is in almost any PvE situation (even with Venom sharing it’s only mediocre) and it’s the only elite available underwater. In short, debuff and stealth durations should be longer in PvE than they are in PvP.

This experience is so completely different from mine I wondered if we were playing the same game for a moment. I’ve found stealth and non-damage conditions (debuffs) far more effective in PvE than PvP. Daze is doubly effective just due to how slow NPCs are to react in general, and cripple is easy to stack to huge amounts. NPCs react horribly to stealth, often instantly walking back to spawn and setting themselves up for a back strike. #3 downed skill has to be used with movement to be a good escape mechanism, like most stealth skills. If you aren’t moving away immediately before/after stealthing, then you’re using stealth with the intent to re-engage. Something that might help is changing downed #1 to a stronger strike when used from stealth, so downed stealth can be used offensively like every other stealth.

You’re absolutely right that Basilisk Venom is horrible though, barring specific builds that use it as a core function.

The only time in PvE I feel like thieves have the short end of the stick is when fights force a ranged single-target approach. P/P would be the logical answer here, but the set is very mediocre.

Einlanzer.1627:

2. Stealth and debuff timers/durations are balanced for PvP, making them inadequate for PvE where longer durations are needed to provide reliable utility and the ability to escape danger and mitigate damage. It’s especially important for the thief class because of how squishy they are and how they have no mechanic like pets to help them avoid or transfer aggro.

I do think stealth isn’t the best thing to be doing in PvE. But I’m not sure I’d call it underpowered per se.

Longer-duration stealth would be… I dunno, not the right direction to go. Three-four seconds of stealth is actually a long time to get away if you supplement it with dodging, Withdraw, and shadowsteps. Based on my experience with other games, I think being able to really run around stealthed would be pretty awful.

Sometimes, when I’m lazy and don’t want to fight random veterans next to a rich ore vein or a skill point commune thingy, I’ll equip Shadow Refuge and get the whole thing while hidden. That feels like plenty of stealth to me.

I didn’t like the downed state much while I was leveling, too. Maxing out Zerk gear magnified my damage so much that it suddenly became very easy to rally, though.

…

I think Jack is absolutely right about “Get wild.” GET WILD! Seriously! A bit of cleverness, a bit of confidence, and some unrelenting aggression will get you super-far in this game.

I’ve already swapped to an engineer and quite frankly already see a lot more viable options and fun utility to be found in this class. I don’t even mind switching kits/weapons because all of my abilities feel far more useful with a great deal of synergy between them. You don’t realize how giddy I got when I realized I could switch into kits like medic and grenades—I love them grenades, abuse ’em.

This is more of what I am looking for, clever design with loads of fun to be had. I don’t care about lethality, lethality means squat to me when it’s wrapped up in crappy packaging and you’re pulling tricks out your behind just to make it all happen in this clumsy styling.

Also, I still don’t know where you guys are getting your damage from. I kind of thinking you live in a fantasy world where you think your sub-par output is somehow good for all the effort you put into it. Back-stab spamming might work, sure, however it’s not only a ridiculously stupid build/emphasis but how often will that be successful once your stealth is fixed and its overall damage still nerfed?

I really think some of you are too positive and not enough realist. The thief got boned. It needs to be redone quite frankly and actually given some love rather than literally the most boring, underachieving kit in the game. You have to abuse a single move half the time just to get anything out of it!

To be honest thieves are typically bad in PvE. You either go P/D, D/D (which starts to fail at higher levels and in dungeons) or S/P and if you go S/P you have to use weird builds or you end up being to fragile to survive in dungeons.

BabelFish.7234:

To be honest thieves are typically bad in PvE. You either go P/D, D/D (which starts to fail at higher levels and in dungeons) or S/P and if you go S/P you have to use weird builds or you end up being to fragile to survive in dungeons.

Yes, dungeons are just a problem in general, figured that how when I grabbed aggro without doing much of anything.

S/P is probably, in my opinion, the only real viable option for PvE though as it can allow you to surmount obstacles that otherwise would’ve been impossible or incredibly annoying to get around with other weapon sets. Only problem is again, like the rest of the thief, it is extremely boring and dull.

I got this game for a more interactive combat system, not to wish I had cruise control as I cut my way through thousands of Orrians screaming, “Death. Good!” Ho, ho, ho…. indeed, death is preferable to the thief profession.

ASP.8093:

Einlanzer.1627:

2. Stealth and debuff timers/durations are balanced for PvP, making them inadequate for PvE where longer durations are needed to provide reliable utility and the ability to escape danger and mitigate damage. It’s especially important for the thief class because of how squishy they are and how they have no mechanic like pets to help them avoid or transfer aggro.

I do think stealth isn’t the best thing to be doing in PvE. But I’m not sure I’d call it underpowered per se.

Longer-duration stealth would be… I dunno, not the right direction to go. Three-four seconds of stealth is actually a long time to get away if you supplement it with dodging, Withdraw, and shadowsteps. Based on my experience with other games, I think being able to really run around stealthed would be pretty awful.

Sometimes, when I’m lazy and don’t want to fight random veterans next to a rich ore vein or a skill point commune thingy, I’ll equip Shadow Refuge and get the whole thing while hidden. That feels like plenty of stealth to me.

I didn’t like the downed state much while I was leveling, too. Maxing out Zerk gear magnified my damage so much that it suddenly became very easy to rally, though.

…

I think Jack is absolutely right about “Get wild.” GET WILD! Seriously! A bit of cleverness, a bit of confidence, and some unrelenting aggression will get you super-far in this game.

Just so we’re clear, I’m not talking perma-stealth, which I feel is not a great mechanic and should be avoided. Stealth duration is typically 3 secs, 4 traited, which is good for PvP but it really should be more like 5/6 seconds in PvE so that it can be used either offensively or defensively as the situation demands. Thieves really need better tools for escaping or mitigating damage. IMO, if they fixed the rendering issue it would probably be safe to just extend stealth duration by 2 seconds and have it stay pretty well balanced.

Also, I mistakenly said “debuffs should be last longer” in a very generalized way when I was going for more like “certain debuffs should be retooled to work better in PvE”, like the petrify on Basilisk Venom. Then again, venoms could probably be retooled a bit (as could traps) to make them better. As it stands, tricks and signets are almost always superior to traps and venoms, which is an obvious design flaw that needs to be looked at (although thieves aren’t unique in this regard).

Also, there’s pretty unanimous consensus that Pistols need a buff. That will help too.

I wanted to weigh in here, sorry if it’s a bit late, and say I hope you don’t re-roll away from thief.

Personally, I’ve been living on a 0/30/30/0/10 thief, running full berserkers. One of the things I find in PvE is having the notion of when to switch up what you’re doing. In most PvE events I’ll run SB for AoE clearing of the waves of trash, then switch to D/D when its time to take down champions. Highest backstab I’ve generated on a champion on Orr thus far is around 8k, so I’ve never felt like we don’t have access to significant damage, but maybe other classes generate more.

I trait heavily into shadow arts and make use of Shadow Refuge for opportunities to stealth allies, res from stealth, and in some dungeons, sneak the party into melee range of heavily ranged enemies that tend to take the party down before we can get into range ourselves.

I also function frequently as the party ‘scout’ using the massive thief mobility to work corridors of traps and reach the buttons to disable those traps without setting everything off.

The thief can bring a great deal to the table in PvE, depending on how you want to play.

I will agree that the class is missing a few things, and that venoms / condition damage in general needs some attention, but I still find it to be a substantially more fun class than my warrior was, and hope you can find some joy in playing it.

PvE has been lacking for me. Each weapon set only has a few aoe skills. And they don’t feel satisfying to use aside from maybe cluster bomb.

Einlanzer.1627:

Basilisk Venom. Then again, venoms could probably be retooled a bit (as could traps) to make them better. As it stands, tricks and signets are almost always superior to traps and venoms, which is an obvious design flaw that needs to be looked at (although thieves aren’t unique in this regard).

Also, there’s pretty unanimous consensus that Pistols need a buff. That will help too.

Yeah, in PvE Basilisk Venom sucks, I give ya that. Traps are ah mixed bag … we got Ambush, which is fantastic, and spike trap which is pretty good, an’ that one what teleports ya back to it when tripped is good for PvP I’m thinkin’ but the rest … meh. Venoms – in general – ain’ too bad, I stack em up on mobs an’ watch em die while I’m dodgin’ away. But we did get allota crap skills, won’t lie there … an’ Pistols … yeah, that needs ta be fixed; I love Unload, looks awesome, but that’s it.

Doin’ D/D I was runnin’ 30/0/0/10/30 (five traits, right, or am I hallucinatin’?) an’ I had more’n a few people say “Wow” after I kicked the teeth out of ah group ah beasties. Now, though, I’m gonna try out a stealth build for awhile – I’m lvl 80 so don’ really need ta go outta my way ta kill stuff but ta clear hearts and whatnot – so I wanna see just how sneaky I can be. (any good advice, by the by, from my Thiefy friends here about sneak builds?) Last night I was in the … burning angry mountain area … whateveritscalled, sneaking through this Evil Asura base an’ I made it from the front, all the way ta the back without alertin’ one guard. (then got smashed by the thing guardin’ the skill point because I didn’ fight it right)

Einlanzer.1627:

Thieves really need better tools for escaping or mitigating damage.

I switched to thief specifically because it has some of the best tools for this stuff.
Escaping: Withdraw + Vigorous Recovery + Feline Grace for endless dodging; Disabling Shot or Escape; Infiltrator’s Arrow, Ink Shot, Shadowstep
Mitigating damage: Black Powder, Death Blossom (not as good as Black Powder, but them’s the breaks with daggers), Smoke Screen and Dagger Storm, basically every Spear attack

Kelliak.9152:

I got this game for a more interactive combat system, not to wish I had cruise control as I cut my way through thousands of Orrians screaming, “Death. Good!” Ho, ho, ho…. indeed, death is preferable to the thief profession.

When you’re bored, pull more guys. “GET WILD!”
1v1-ing trash mobs is never that exciting for any class. And I don’t think it really should be challenging, for any class; it’s just a thing to do while you’re half-asleep or chatting with your guild or whatever. It’s basically social downtime.

…

Thief does have some problems with variety, on account of venoms, mainhand pistol, and most traps all being weak. It’s a good class for people who like having a small set of tools to apply precisely, and not as great for folks who want a big grab-bag of options to manage in every fight (try Elementalist or Engineer if you really want to dive into that aspect of the game whole-hog). The core gameplay is positioning and timing, with only a small set of skills.

The way I see it, thieves are great for the most optimal strategy in the PvE game (big-damage builds with lots of active mitigation), and bad at executing a bunch of mediocre strategies that there’s no reason to bother pursuing anyway.

Kelliak.9152:

BabelFish.7234:

To be honest thieves are typically bad in PvE. You either go P/D, D/D (which starts to fail at higher levels and in dungeons) or S/P and if you go S/P you have to use weird builds or you end up being to fragile to survive in dungeons.

Yes, dungeons are just a problem in general, figured that how when I grabbed aggro without doing much of anything.

S/P is probably, in my opinion, the only real viable option for PvE though as it can allow you to surmount obstacles that otherwise would’ve been impossible or incredibly annoying to get around with other weapon sets. Only problem is again, like the rest of the thief, it is extremely boring and dull.

I got this game for a more interactive combat system, not to wish I had cruise control as I cut my way through thousands of Orrians screaming, “Death. Good!” Ho, ho, ho…. indeed, death is preferable to the thief profession.

Can’t say I’m far from that point myself.
Getting pulled, crippled and feared by mobs constantly in Orr from absurd ranges isn’t exactly fun or balanced to the Thief who only has 1-2 outs to conditions and CC effects.

If I didn’t have so much invested into my thief I’d probably reroll too.

I’ve got a lot invested into it but I can’t be hassled into trying to make it work for me. Some people seem to have success with it. Don’t know how, why, it could be a matter of viewpoint but I personally think it is garbage. A lot of work and effort for one of the most lackluster, clunky classes I’ve thus far encountered in a game.

I wish I could say otherwise. I am having fun mowing down things with grenades right now though. XD

It`s called ‘Sunk Cost’.

A “sunk cost” is a cost that you have already incurred and that you cannot recover.
People often have an irrational desire to use products for which they have paid a lot of money, or to continue following a plan that has required a great investment. They think that if they abandon the product or change their approach, they will be throwing money or time away. That’s not true – the money and time have already been thrown away. Continuing to use a bad product or to follow a bad plan is only increasing the amount being thrown away.
Whenever you make a decision, it has to be made according to what you know now and upon reasonable expectations of the future. Hoping that bad results from a past decision will eventually “turn around” if you stick with that decision is wishful thinking of the worst sort. It always takes courage to admit you made a bad choice and that you need to change your mind, but it is the only thing to do. It takes even more courage to try to convince others that they made bad choices and need to accept the sunk costs, but that’s something you sometimes have to do.

rogerwilko.6895:

It`s called ‘Sunk Cost’.

Wow, that’s the biggest load ah b-s I heard all mornin’, and I’ve been on the internet for hours.

I play a Thief because it’s Fun for me, I Enjoy the mechanics, I Love steal like it was my baby, I adore the fact that I gotta be on my toes ta play the class instead ah cake walkin’ through everything. Sure, it ain’ for everyone … that’s okay – I ain’ judgin’ ya because ya don’ like the class … but don’ come in here an’ tell me my class is garbage an’ I’m only havin’ fun with it because I’m brainwashed.

Jack of Tears.9458:

don’ come in here an’ tell me my class is garbage an’ I’m only havin’ fun with it because I’m brainwashed.

I don’t think he was referring to you specifically. “Sunk cost” is an economic principle that was being used to explain why if you don’t enjoy playing a profession you should go ahead and reroll instead of just moping around not having fun.

I think a lot of people in this thread just don’t enjoy the playstyle that much of PvE thief revolves around. I find thieves in PvE both fun and effective, able to easily farm events, explore exceptionally well, and contribute to a variety of roles in a dungeon groups. The fact of the matter is that thieves aren’t bad in PvE. Whether an individual enjoys the play style to achieve those results is subjective.

Jack of Tears.9458:

rogerwilko.6895:

It`s called ‘Sunk Cost’.

Wow, that’s the biggest load ah b-s I heard all mornin’, and I’ve been on the internet for hours.

I play a Thief because it’s Fun for me, I Enjoy the mechanics, I Love steal like it was my baby, I adore the fact that I gotta be on my toes ta play the class instead ah cake walkin’ through everything. Sure, it ain’ for everyone … that’s okay – I ain’ judgin’ ya because ya don’ like the class … but don’ come in here an’ tell me my class is garbage an’ I’m only havin’ fun with it because I’m brainwashed.

Um, all he did was point out that playing something due to “sunk costs” is irrational ultimately as you continue investing into those losses rather than cutting them and going to something else. He wasn’t making a remark against the thief class at all and was entirely accurate really. I’ve often gotten too caught up in the “sunk costs” issue, unable to give up something that I ultimately did not enjoy because of time spent.

The class is garbage, but one man’s garbage is another man’s treasure. As much as I’d like to rip into you and question your thinking, it isn’t worth it nor sensible. I don’t mind difficulty but I want it to be rewarding—the thief failed to reward me for my efforts, instead seemed intent on punishing me for every possible mistake like it was an epic blunder.

Either way, my 74 thief isn’t going anywhere. She’s not a wasted effort, she’s still there, perhaps one day I can appreciate her better. Just not now.

Edit: Let me add, that I enjoy being Asura better than a Human too. I’m all about style and presentation, the engineer/Asura combo seems to give me that. x) <3

I agree with pretty much all of the points you have all made, but I still respectfully disagree.

IMHO, if you are to survive doing PVE at the current moment, you need some Acrobatics or Shadow Arts. Glass cannon Thieves are very effective in PVP but get shattered in two shots from an event boss out in the real world.

My build is an evasion based roflbuild with 0/0/10/30/30.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzz0zMonbrMmabvm9MaxxVMabcsq

This is going to seem a bit wierd at first because it is. Why the hell would I have D/D in both sets? Because of Quick Pockets. Weapon switch becomes a “I need three initiative kthxbai” button. What kind of noob takes caltrops AND Uncatchable? Me. Signet of Malice only ticks on casted caltrops. Throw one of those down in a mob of zombies and you now have infinite health. GG. Why is everything meant to regen initiative? Because I spam the f—- out of Leaping Death Lily. Signet of Malice heals me each time I hit each target for all three hits on LDL on top of the Assassins Reward healing.

My strategy is to dodge roll around large groups spamming LDL whenever I get a chance and using my skill set to regen initiative so I can spam it some more. I can get large groups up to 15 stacks of bleed easy and hang around 4 stacks of might. The excessive evasions get me past the CC spam and heavy hits of Orrian mobs. When there is a group of 4 or I really don’t take that much damage and anything that I do take is swiftly regenned because of Malice.

There are three major weaknesses to this build. One is that is takes forever to destroy objects because they can’t be bled. Second isn’t really a bad thing in my eyes, but I have to constantly be on my toes because if I get CC’d, I’m dead. Third is that if I can’t get into a fight to slap 15 stacks of bleed of everyone, fights take a long time.

I honestly don’t expect this build to be the best questing build in existence, but I find it rewarding, effective, and amusing.

Special thanks to Lowell and his “Leaping Super Immortal Death Troll Legendary Unicorn Blossom” sPVP build, which was the main inspiration for mine.

I don’t get why no one accounts for the many ranged mobs in Orr. .-.

sirgen.9045:

I agree with pretty much all of the points you have all made, but I still respectfully disagree.

IMHO, if you are to survive doing PVE at the current moment, you need some Acrobatics or Shadow Arts. Glass cannon Thieves are very effective in PVP but get shattered in two shots from an event boss out in the real world.

The trick to this is that Acrobatics, used properly, gives more power than our power trait line and more condition damage than our condition damage trait line, so I don’t really consider it a departure from a full-offense build, since it is the best offensive option. That said, “out in the world” boss events aren’t usually a survivability issue unless you’re doing them alone.

sirgen.9045:

What kind of noob takes caltrops AND Uncatchable? Me. Signet of Malice only ticks on casted caltrops.

Not true, Uncatchable caltrops are great for healing with Signet of Malice. There are few situations where I’d recommend taking Utility caltrops and not Uncatchable or vice versa, if you’re synergizing for one, might as well synergize for both.

Kelliak.9152:

I don’t get why no one accounts for the many ranged mobs in Orr. .-.

There aren’t really that many, and thieves are well-equipped to close range with them when there are.

Tulisin.6945:

Kelliak.9152:

I don’t get why no one accounts for the many ranged mobs in Orr. .-.

There aren’t really that many, and thieves are well-equipped to close range with them when there are.

…I’ve dealt with entire groups of them, why do I feel like at times the experiences in this game are so vastly different it is literally impossible to really outline how to deal with situations?

Not to mention, I do not want to close range. I lose health and burn endurance like it’s going out of fashion when I do that. It seems like no matter how well I time myself, if one thing hits me, it’s kitten near over right there.

I also, STILL, don’t get where you’re getting your damage from. Full glass-cannon and it took forever to kill anything without the p/p spamming “3” setup. You guys act like closing distance magically causes things to die and I’ve actually noted daggers seem to do far worse compared to their ranged counterparts.

Kelliak.9152:

Tulisin.6945:

Kelliak.9152:

I don’t get why no one accounts for the many ranged mobs in Orr. .-.

There aren’t really that many, and thieves are well-equipped to close range with them when there are.

…I’ve dealt with entire groups of them, why do I feel like at times the experiences in this game are so vastly different it is literally impossible to really outline how to deal with situations?

Not to mention, I do not want to close range. I lose health and burn endurance like it’s going out of fashion when I do that. It seems like no matter how well I time myself, if one thing hits me, it’s kitten near over right there.

I also, STILL, don’t get where you’re getting your damage from. Full glass-cannon and it took forever to kill anything without the p/p spamming “3” setup. You guys act like closing distance magically causes things to die and I’ve actually noted daggers seem to do far worse compared to their ranged counterparts.

Definitely vastly different experiences here. Since P/P #3 (Unload) is one of our lowest DPS abilities, lower than most of our auto attacks, and you seem to be perceiving it as your best DPS option. For closing I use Infiltrator’s Strike, pretty much risk free and instant, or Steal for the same reasons. Dodging towards your opponent is also viable and very much recommended with Acrobatics, but may not be as good of an idea without dodge traits.

No idea why you’re having DPS issues. I run 5~ might stacks on average, with mostly offensive gear (berserker), most Orr and Frostgorge trash dies in a few auto attack chains (3 at a time, since they’re sword autos). Optionally, vs. 2 enemies burning my initiative bar on Dancing Dagger will kill them in a couple seconds, always good for some quick burst.

One of my favorite things to do is go to Frostgorge where the wolves hang out and grab the veteran wolf with its 3 pups, + 3 other wandering wolves, smack them around until they call their buddies (11 mobs total), and then drop caltrops and burn them all down.

Kelliak.9152:

I don’t get why no one accounts for the many ranged mobs in Orr. .-.

Try one or more of these easy strategies.
Dagger Storm.
Charge in and hit Black Powder.
Charge into one group, hit Black Powder to blind them, pop Smoke Screen between that group and the other cluster that’s attacking you, kill the near group, charge the other group and Black Powder them.

I’m telling you: this class gives you all of the tools you need to negate damage. You just have to apply them.

Tulisin.6945:

Kelliak.9152:

Tulisin.6945:

Kelliak.9152:

I don’t get why no one accounts for the many ranged mobs in Orr. .-.

There aren’t really that many, and thieves are well-equipped to close range with them when there are.

…I’ve dealt with entire groups of them, why do I feel like at times the experiences in this game are so vastly different it is literally impossible to really outline how to deal with situations?

Not to mention, I do not want to close range. I lose health and burn endurance like it’s going out of fashion when I do that. It seems like no matter how well I time myself, if one thing hits me, it’s kitten near over right there.

I also, STILL, don’t get where you’re getting your damage from. Full glass-cannon and it took forever to kill anything without the p/p spamming “3” setup. You guys act like closing distance magically causes things to die and I’ve actually noted daggers seem to do far worse compared to their ranged counterparts.

Definitely vastly different experiences here. Since P/P #3 (Unload) is one of our lowest DPS abilities, lower than most of our auto attacks, and you seem to be perceiving it as your best DPS option. For closing I use Infiltrator’s Strike, pretty much risk free and instant, or Steal for the same reasons. Dodging towards your opponent is also viable and very much recommended with Acrobatics, but may not be as good of an idea without dodge traits.

No idea why you’re having DPS issues. I run 5~ might stacks on average, with mostly offensive gear (berserker), most Orr and Frostgorge trash dies in a few auto attack chains (3 at a time, since they’re sword autos). Optionally, vs. 2 enemies burning my initiative bar on Dancing Dagger will kill them in a couple seconds, always good for some quick burst.

One of my favorite things to do is go to Frostgorge where the wolves hang out and grab the veteran wolf with its 3 pups, + 3 other wandering wolves, smack them around until they call their buddies (10 mobs total), and then drop caltrops and burn them all down.

Yes, see, somehow my damage doesn’t work out like it should. Spamming “3” on p/p has been the only way to burn anything, reliably. Unless of course I use the s/p combo and spam it’s “3” instead. Daggers have always proven to hit very softly for me and only expose me to some severe retaliation.

Kelliak.9152:

I also, STILL, don’t get where you’re getting your damage from. Full glass-cannon and it took forever to kill anything without the p/p spamming “3” setup. You guys act like closing distance magically causes things to die and I’ve actually noted daggers seem to do far worse compared to their ranged counterparts.

I traited the burnin’ hell outta my Steal, so when I use it on a mob it’s just a bad bad day for them, an’ gives me 4 or more boons – bam – instant like. One Leapin’ Strike an’ one Steal will close most any distance I need, an’ I use the roll heal (don’ remember what it’s called) so not only does it heal me, it gets me outta danger when I’m hurtin’. (and it recharges pretty quick like, so by the time I need it again it’s usually ready)

Kelliak.9152:

Daggers have always proven to hit very softly for me and only expose me to some severe retaliation.

You really shouldn’t be getting hit often in PvE. Most mobs have incredibly slow telegraphed attacks that won’t hit if you so much as hold down sidestep for the duration of the fight. There’s nothing wrong with taking some blows, though, as long as your capability to heal exceeds the damage you’re taking. With Signet of Malice and the right amount of AE, your capability to heal passively while you’re fighting is massive. Add in something like Assassin’s Reward or a life steal sigil and fights almost always end at 100 % HP.

I have no trouble in pve with s/d and shadow rejuvenation and sometimes shadow protector(not if someone else is using Regen; it says it gives allies regen but that also includes YOU). Almost doesn’t seem fair.

rogerwilko.6895:

It always takes courage to admit you made a bad choice and that you need to change your mind, but it is the only thing to do. It takes even more courage to try to convince others that they made bad choices and need to accept the sunk costs, but that’s something you sometimes have to do.

Here’s a stupid simile for you.

Playing thief is like driving stick. It’s not harder than driving an automatic in any significant way (unlike, say, flying a plane or driving a tank, which are objectively more difficult than driving a car), but it is different.
Some people don’t know how to drive a manual car. Some people just don’t like to. There are other cars for those people (who are the majority of modern drivers, really).
If you go try to convince other people that manual transmissions are bad, though, maybe you should learn how to shift first. Otherwise you really are just embarrassing yourself. That’s arrogance, not courage.

…

Want to be good as a thief? (Or a warrior, for that matter.)

Grab a melee weapon. Go out to Queensdale. Aggro an ettin. Try to kill it, without taking any damage, using only your autoattack, dodging, and free movement. Once you get good at this, grab more than one at a time. All other melee skill starts with this.

Did a build similar to Sirgen’s… doing much better. Just need some time to get it down but I did kill three ranged orrians without dying. Considering I had issue with more than just one, period, prior—that’s something.