Guild Wars 2

As an avid player and forum poster I’ve seen many conversations/threads pertaining the Thief class and how the class should be addressed. The one started by a Community Manager resorted to flack fighting and no longer provides accurate or plausible information. So, I’m here to address the ACTUAL problems with with the Thief class. I’ll provide quick fix methods as well as fixes that are improbable. I will also be incorporating ideas from the CM’s thread by the community.

Damage/Burst:

I think that this is the first thing we need to concern ourselves with. Only due tot he fact that most complaints – by other players – are dying due to insane amounts of damage.

As a Thief, I know that our damage is high. It’s only high because a large amount of the Thieves play GC specs*. (See Defense)

Is that OP? Yes and no… Yes, because if a player can be killed instantly without a chance to fight back, that’s OP. This goes for each GC spec for any profession. No, because GC specs are available to each profession. The damage may not be as great, but the fights are bursty and last seconds just the same. In one case, GC Thief is only beat in raw damage by one profession: the Mesmer Shatter build.

How to Fix the Damage:

Note that these ideas incorporate ideas from the community as well as my own thoughts.

1. 25% Nerf. Honestly, if it’d make everyone feel better, Thieves could take a direct 25% nerf to Cloak and Dagger, Backstab and Mug — and not be affected too badly. Their damage would be comparable to other GC specs, but still be squishy regardless*. (See Defense) Though, nerfing those may affect other specs that aren’t about Dagger/Dagger.
2. Balance Thief weapon sets. Thief direct damage is usually based on Haste, and most of the weapon set’s skills rely on the use of Haste to make them effective. (i.e. Pistol/Pistol or Sword/Pistol)
3. Cool downs. Increase internal cooldowns on the ability to spam certain abilities. Lots of people complain about Heartseeker. Though, this will destroy the uniqueness of the profession’s Weapon Sets.

Defense/Mobility:

To discuss defense and mobility we need to define the Thief profession.

Excerpt from Dictionary.com: Thief – a person who steals, especially secretly or without open force; one guilty of theft or larceny.

The synonyms then go on to explain that thieves would do what they must, even resort to violence, to obtain things of value. It also mentions trespassing and guile. Using this information we can match it to parts of the Thief profession. Guile? Stealth. Steals. Steal. Force/Violence? Assassin-based burst damage. Trespassing? Going for the kill and then having to mobility to escape. So, ANet did name the class correctly.

Thieves are squishy, this is a fact. No matter the spec.* We have the lowest health and armor pools in the game. So, in turn, we need abilities or ways to negate damage. This is why we have the ability to stealth and move freely at quick speeds. Our mobility is only beat by Dagger/Dagger Elementalists.

How to Fix Defense and Mobility:

1. Increase health and armor pools. This is an obvious and simple fix that would go great with a 25% damage nerf. This would be a good balance to the profession. This would make other specs like conditions viable.
2. Blind mechanics. In GW1 Blind made you miss attacks for the duration of the ability (multiple attacks) not just one attack. Since Thieves have many blinds we could keep the same armor/health we do now and just blind to survive a bit longer. Though, there would have to be an increase on CDs for blinds.
3. Cool downs. I think that Thief mobility is fine and doesn’t need a nerf, but members of the community suggested that there is an increase on CDs for Shadow Step.

tbc.

cnt.

Stealth/Culling:

This is a very important issue that would take some serious redesigning to fix.

As of right now, stealth on it’s own, things are fine. Though, stealth and culling can be abused in certain ways.

Culling is a system designed by the developers to lessen stress on your CPU by rendering players/spells by proximity. This allows Thieves to appear to have the ability of infinite stealth. In a large group fight you may render a few enemies around you and then after a bit of moving/deaths you’ll randomly be treated to more enemies that were not rendered before.

Thieves can abuse this because of stealth. We can attack you, go stealth, be removed from your render-set then attack and be ‘culled’ a few seconds after the attack. Making us invisible and able to deal massive damage.

How to Fix Stealth/Culling:

1. Design a new render system. Waaaaay out there and probably would take too many resources. I don’t see this as a plausible fix.
2. Nerf stealth. Though the current mechanics are fine and can be easily countered — things may need a nerf due to culling.
3. Redesign stealth. Possibly a good idea. We could have a stealth that works like like a damage mitigator. Making us evade attacks while in stealth. This would require shorter stealth times.
__________________________________________________________________

I want to end this by asking for a thread lock to ensure that no arguments breakout. If that is NOT possible, then I ask for each reader to ensure fair-play and utilize good manners/behaviors. I would love to see the game fixed/balanced and that can only happen if we all cooperate.

This is all I have, so thanks for reading.

-Wasdica aka Iove

So I got an error saying that the post had to be less than 5001 characters and had to split it! xD

Not really happy with your post. Thief has been nerfed already, the only characters in wvw that are dieing in 1 hit is the players that are not Lv80 and geared. There getting there arrogance and ego all up into the spot, I play a theif without toughness at all and I’m getting hit 4/5k Backstab. I say kitten you man, your pathetic posing as a thief I bet you never even played it properly, no why would you want to nerf the class. The culling is not a issue if you know how to deal with it, I do and I don’t cry about other thieves even if I’m playing a warrior in my guilds group for wvw as the burst class, because for 1 that burst is a x100 better than the thief burst. Yes thief can burst a lot, then don’t get caught on backstab, don’t stop moving these are all issues you can prevent if you put your mind to it.

I didn’t like your post at all.

Negated.4105:

Not really happy with your post. Thief has been nerfed already, the only characters in wvw that are dieing in 1 hit is the players that are not Lv80 and geared. There getting there arrogance and ego all up into the spot, I play a theif without toughness at all and I’m getting hit 4/5k Backstab. I say kitten you man, your pathetic posing as a thief I bet you never even played it properly, no why would you want to nerf the class. The culling is not a issue if you know how to deal with it, I do and I don’t cry about other thieves even if I’m playing a warrior in my guilds group for wvw as the burst class, because for 1 that burst is a x100 better than the thief burst. Yes thief can burst a lot, then don’t get caught on backstab, don’t stop moving these are all issues you can prevent if you put your mind to it.

I didn’t like your post at all.

I think you need to actually read the post before you get all hateful. I do play a Thief and have played a variety of the specs to know what would need to be done to fix them. I never mentioned a direct nerf besides the 25% damage nerf, but I also stated that it could be balanced with increased health and armor pools. Please be more considerate and read the ideas presented to you fully.

My main is a Thief, I just wrote a guide for the build I play currently in WvW.

Why does a 25% dmg nerf…to one trait, and 2 skills equate to a health upgrade for the entire profession?
Secondly how does “people complain about heartseeker” equate to Cooldowns?
What?
Third the definition of Thief means very little here, it’s pointless to bring up.

Also “I think mobility is fine but I heard others say Shadowstep should be longer”
Basically you are just going with what you hear, and are appeasing. Hard to take you seriously on that note.

To be blunt. I disagree with your title. It sounds more like “Things I heard desired”.

You put a lot of thought into your ideas, but I do not agree with most. Here is the reality… A thief will never beat any good Mesmer, ele, engi, or warrior 1 on 1. Thieves are actually best at killing other thieves. From what I’ve seen, a lot of QQ threads in general are from thieves who got killed by another thief who is more skilled.

Your damage changes wouldn’t change anything. The thief has already seen a lot of nerfs. People hate stealth, and that will always be the case.

The ironic thing is that mesmers and eles are really the OP classes at the moment; thieves are just the most annoying.

Iove.3902:

As an avid player and forum poster I’ve seen many conversations/threads pertaining the Thief class and how the class should be addressed. The one started by a Community Manager resorted to flack fighting and no longer provides accurate or plausible information. So, I’m here to address the ACTUAL problems with with the Thief class. I’ll provide quick fix methods as well as fixes that are improbable. I will also be incorporating ideas from the CM’s thread by the community.

Damage/Burst:

I think that this is the first thing we need to concern ourselves with. Only due tot he fact that most complaints – by other players – are dying due to insane amounts of damage.

As a Thief, I know that our damage is high. It’s only high because a large amount of the Thieves play GC specs*. (See Defense)

Is that OP? Yes and no… Yes, because if a player can be killed instantly without a chance to fight back, that’s OP. This goes for each GC spec for any profession. No, because GC specs are available to each profession. The damage may not be as great, but the fights are bursty and last seconds just the same. In one case, GC Thief is only beat in raw damage by one profession: the Mesmer Shatter build.

How to Fix the Damage:

Note that these ideas incorporate ideas from the community as well as my own thoughts.

1. 25% Nerf. Honestly, if it’d make everyone feel better, Thieves could take a direct 25% nerf to Cloak and Dagger, Backstab and Mug — and not be affected too badly. Their damage would be comparable to other GC specs, but still be squishy regardless*. (See Defense) Though, nerfing those may affect other specs that aren’t about Dagger/Dagger.
2. Balance Thief weapon sets. Thief direct damage is usually based on Haste, and most of the weapon set’s skills rely on the use of Haste to make them effective. (i.e. Pistol/Pistol or Sword/Pistol)

1. This is the same kind of thinking that has broken down thief builds in the past. The suggested drastic nerfs would do little to deter thieves that are dead-set on jumping in and comboing people down in a few seconds. It’d still be completely viable on most targets. The thieves that’d suffer most are the ones that use those skills more consistently and actively within their play styles. Once again a misguided attempt to weaken the backstab-opener play style would push more thieves into it as other options are sideswiped to death by poorly thought out nerfs.
2. Neither of those sets rely on haste to make them effective in most situations. I’m all for retuning active Quickness utilities, but Haste certainly isn’t required as-is.

Is “give thieves cooldowns, more HP and toughness” a viable solution? Absolutely. However, it is a viable solution because it basically removes the unique way thieves function. Make thieves into warriors and they’re obviously going to be much easier to balance.

@ Tulisin: Please do take note that I’m not saying incorporate everything with a number beside it. That’d make some of the suggested changes useless. I too believe that the class is fine as it is, but a lot of other don’t. So, ANet is going to make changes for sure, and some of these could make it for the better. Pistol Whip and Pistol Barrage rely on Haste in order to preform as well as other specs or classes. Although, there’s always a skill factor that cannot be calculated as variable for these changes.

Also, please read the full thread. I said that adding CDs would remove the uniqueness of the Thief, already That was a Community option, and I would never agree with it.

ensoriki.5789:

Why does a 25% dmg nerf…to one trait, and 2 skills equate to a health upgrade for the entire profession?
Secondly how does “people complain about heartseeker” equate to Cooldowns?
What?
Third the definition of Thief means very little here, it’s pointless to bring up.

Also “I think mobility is fine but I heard others say Shadowstep should be longer”
Basically you are just going with what you hear, and are appeasing. Hard to take you seriously on that note.

To be blunt. I disagree with your title. It sounds more like “Things I heard desired”.

I agree wit you that some of these changes are drastic, and I’d never agree with about 3 of them. Most threads are about fighting and do not offer ideas and it’s hard to shift through all the debri.

The Heartseeker CDs was part of the add CDs to Thief in general, but that would remove the uniqueness of the class as I have said multiple times.

I added the definition so people would understand what we should be doing because a lot of the Non-Thieves say that we shouldn’t be able to be mobile and have tons of damage.

Also, if a fights last 10seconds and you nerf damage by 25% the could potentially last 12.5 seconds. Our damage wouldn’t have changed that much. If we balance that with more health and armor to make us a bit for tanky ..not too much though we’d see a more balanced fight where we can CC, DPS, Tank, and be mobile. It’s a pretty decent counter balance. We need that extra armor and health imo.

Honestly, Culling is a bug in the game, not with the class. This is something that should be fixed, regardless of whether or not it’s causing gameplay or balance issues. It’s just sloppy optimization.

In regards to your damage nerf/defense buff, I would have to disagree. What makes classes unique and interesting is that they can specialize in certain styles of play. Changing thieves in this way could possibly make them more balanced, but it would also probably make them less interesting.

Iove.3902:

@ Tulisin: Please do take note that I’m not saying incorporate everything with a number beside it. That’d make some of the suggested changes useless. I too believe that the class is fine as it is, but a lot of other don’t. So, ANet is going to make changes for sure, and some of these could make it for the better. Pistol Whip and Pistol Barrage rely on Haste in order to preform as well as other specs or classes.

I don’t have a problem with the numbers, I have a problem with the philosophy, it is the wrong approach to take to resolve the issues the community is perceiving. The most important thing that could be done about the backstab opener is to remove Mug’s ability to deliver damage instantly mid-combo, that is really the only unique attribute thieves get that allows <2 second domination. Changing Mug to deal equal or better damage but over a multi-second timeframe (by changing it to a multi-stack bleed or a burn, maybe) would retain the current use of skills/traits in most situations while increasing TTK for that particular combo.

Pistol Whip and “Pistol Barrage” (I assume you mean Unload) don’t require Haste. PW is only used with haste when you try to shoehorn it into a mobile role when auto attack is superior for a mobile role, and Haste + Unload breaks Unload’s sustainability due to init-on-crit’s cooldown and makes more of your damage avoidable per dodge. You can burn Haste with any damage ability and get good results, but pairing these two skills with Haste displays a lack of understanding of their strengths. A good pairing creates synergy, making both attributes stronger than their individual pieces (1+1 = 2.5), not merely a net increase in power even though they work against eachother (1+1 = 1.5).

I love how everyone says “The Thief isn’t a thief! Look at this real life definition”

The class could be called Crapgoblin for all the Devs care because they stated it themselves, “The Thief will be the spiritual successor to the Assassin of Guild Wars”

/Dealwithitbabies.

More to the point, your entire diatribe is anecdotal to the extreme.
If it’s “OP” because someone can’t fight back when they get jumped/caught unaware and they didn’t slot any defensive utilities they don’t deserve a free get out of Backstab Card just because they can’t live without their Offensive utilities.

Glass Cannons kittening about Glass Cannons will never stop, simply because people play Glass Cannons to blow people up. It’s only intellectual impotents that can’t deal with getting blown up like a Glass Cannon.

Tulisin.6945:

….The most important thing that could be done about the backstab opener is to remove Mug’s ability to deliver damage instantly mid-combo, that is really the only unique attribute thieves get that allows <2 second domination. Changing Mug to deal equal or better damage but over a multi-second timeframe (by changing it to a multi-stack bleed or a burn, maybe) would retain the current use of skills/traits in most situations while increasing TTK for that particular combo.

This.
Changing Mug is so obvious but suggested so rarely that it appears to be a taboo.

Changing mug is quite often suggested and it always comes back around to the same line, it would affect the other classes’ damage output much more so than the D/D build. It has been suggested that it be moved to a master trait which would mean that it would deal more damage as people had to trait farther into this line to get it without affecting the 30/30///* build whatsoever. it had been suggested that it knockdown,but this would essentially make it as powerful as the grandmaster trait in trickery. Changing it to a condition would make the P/D build even stronger. Changing the timing so that it interrupts would cause a discontinuity between this and the way the other teleports function. There really is no single part of the chain that is too powerful, just a good combination of skills.

Assuming that there is never an adequate fix for culling, and this is a major assumption, the only change that would be acceptable in my eyes would be an adjustment to the manner in which mug and the revealed debuff interact. That is to say, mug could trigger the revealed debuff unless hidden thief is traited.

That’s it, C&D has an activation time, and backstab has a positional requirement. Neither is OP against an opponent with a semblance of a brain in their current state.

If Anet is able to fix their culling issues, however, they should allow the fix some time to marinate before making any other changes.

i completly disagree with you OP
1.Health / armor / damage is related to every players build. You only refered to 1 build " dagger /dagger – imagine sword /dagger thieves with an 25% damage nerf, they will hit lower that guardians. Any non burst build would be completly destroyed.
When i played thief, i had an build with 2700 armor and 18000 hp , with under 3000 power, and decent healing power and critical damage. My damage output wasn’t important since i could drag an fight even for 10 -15 minutes if i had an tanky opponent. healing 350 / sec stealthed , able to take few hits from any class and killing enemys slow. The game mechanism allow this kind of build to win vs any class with lower hp regen / heal, caused by perma stealth.
The only viable nerf regarding thief can come from cloack and dagger stealth timer * reduced to 1.5 seconds from 3 and increase casting time with 1/4 seconds. This nerf would hit the most builds that generate complains ( off hand dagger builds)
2. blind protect you from melle damage, unless you got 1500 aoe blind , you will still die from 1 kill shot in open field, all aoe skills will still hit you, blinded or not
3. all the thief burst is based on initiative sistem, why would an thief have intiative if he got cooldowns ?
An warrior can leap – wirwind -450 range – rush 1200 – bull charge 900 – weapon swap – savage leap 600 range , all in less then 5 seconds -3150 range
an guardian can gs 3 – sword 2 -judge’s intevention – 2300 range in less then 3 seconds,. situation an mercifull 1200 extra range
Elementarist can do lighting ball + teleport + myst form -3500 + range
At this time thief can – steal – 900 range + 5 heartseekers (trained)*450 range 3000 range,
So already elementarists can escape from thief, if they wanna dodge the fight, for guardians and warriors is situational , but in some situations they can reset combat vs thief or escape from it.
Mesmers also got insane mobility and can leave combat vs thief.
I belive you did not took all this factors intro consideration OP. but an cooldown to heartseeker would totaly kill the thief if PvP/ wvw

Maugetarr.6823:

Changing mug is quite often suggested and it always comes back around to the same line, it would affect the other classes’ damage output much more so than the D/D build.

It really, really wouldn’t. With a 45s CD Mug doesn’t affect any build’s damage in the long run. Mug’s current implementation isn’t tied to D/D as much as it is tied to a 1-3 second burst period. Remove its ability to apply all of its damage instantly within that period, and it remains equal across most builds but its situational strengths will change.

Mug is the primary thing that sets the thief’s ambush glass cannon attack apart from other professions. Remove that, and TTK falls into the same realm as other professions’ tactics.

Maugetarr.6823:

Changing mug is quite often suggested and it always comes back around to the same line, it would affect the other classes’ damage output much more so than the D/D build.

No it doesn’t, reducing, for instance Mug’s damage, or even replacing the trait would not have any effect on other classes. I never suggested making it interrupt the current action (such a change could have terrible effects on everyone).

There really is no single part of the chain that is too powerful, just a good combination of skills.

Yet other parts of the chain were nerfed because the whole chain was strong, making thieves that used those parts, but not the chain, performance lacking, basically pushing them into using that chain.

Steal and it’s traits being fragile is no reason to not look at it at all.

Tulisin.6945:

Maugetarr.6823:

Changing mug is quite often suggested and it always comes back around to the same line, it would affect the other classes’ damage output much more so than the D/D build.

It really, really wouldn’t. With a 45s CD Mug doesn’t affect any build’s damage in the long run. Mug’s current implementation isn’t tied to D/D as much as it is tied to a 1-3 second burst period. Remove its ability to apply all of its damage instantly within that period, and it remains equal across most builds but its situational strengths will change.

Mug is the primary thing that sets the thief’s ambush glass cannon attack apart from other professions. Remove that, and TTK falls into the same realm as other professions’ tactics.

It would affect the finisher of builds that’s that had a much more consistent less burst oriented build, such kitten D, which need that burst towards the end of the fight against an opponent that was basing their heal on the DPS of the auto attack. With the reduction in damage that the offhand dagger,it is becoming increasingly difficult to run a non burst direct damage build.

The mug/steal is probably the factor that would be best to change IMO in order to nerf BS builds a bit without (too much) affecting other builds. There are several ways it could be done as seen in this thread and others:
-Reducing the damage from mug (or outright (re)moving mug as a trait, it’s incredibly powerful for a 10pt trait).
-Making steal interrupt a skill (this is actually what I think would be best, a BS build could still teleport up to an enemy using Shadowstep but the burst would be a bit slower, giving the enemy a bit bigger window to react)
-Remove the teleport from steal (seen this one a few times and it’s got some merits, it wouldn’t reduce the burst but it would make it easier for an enemy to see it coming, something that is perhaps a bigger issue when comparing bursts to other professions than the damage itself)

frans.8092:

Maugetarr.6823:

Changing mug is quite often suggested and it always comes back around to the same line, it would affect the other classes’ damage output much more so than the D/D build.

No it doesn’t, reducing, for instance Mug’s damage, or even replacing the trait would not have any effect on other classes. I never suggested making it interrupt the current action (such a change could have terrible effects on everyone).

There really is no single part of the chain that is too powerful, just a good combination of skills.

Yet other parts of the chain were nerfed because the whole chain was strong, making thieves that used those parts, but not the chain, performance lacking, basically pushing them into using that chain.

Steal and it’s traits being fragile is no reason to not look at it at all.

I apologize for not being clear on this part. It has been said on several other threads that steal should interrupt actions and I’m sorry my poor wording misrepresented what you were saying. As to mug’s damage, I think reducing out would have unintended ripples throughout the rest of the profession as did changing the damage of some of the other abilities. I would rather see the very end of the chain (backstab) addressed. That is not to say that steal/mug can’t be looked at, but even seemingly small changes can affect much more than the intended target. Something as simple as reducing the range on steal so people can see it coming might do more to affect change than changing any number within the chain. This would also cause more of a tradeoff though as people might be forced to finally use long reach. As for backstab, I would like to see it inflict deep wound from gw1. Such matters would be better discussed within the thief, and its gameplay though.

dear OP. go play wow
you are really clueless…
i already see “lf2m fractal 10, no thief”, why should i get the boot and not have party because the likes of you ???