Guild Wars 2

I know there’s talk about spike damage needing a nerf, and much speculation on what form that would take, but I wanted to open a thread on things that we as thieves feel are under used / could use a buff.

Personally, I think P/P is a bit underwhelming, and I would love to see some enhancement on this skill set. Specifically:

Black Powder: I’d like to see some AoE damage along with the AoE blind. There’s no AoE on the P/P bar and in PvE, it feels the lack. Alternately: I would like to see black powder supply stealth (poof, there I go in a could of my own gun smoke.) There is no mechanic within P/P to gain access to stealth, forcing you to get it off a utility skill or from your steal.

Head Shot: I’d like to see this skill with a higher chance of critical… would be an amazing skill with a 100% crit chance to give fast access to on crit procs, but would also be good at 50% chance of crit. That or a damage boos, otherwise, the skill feels a bit short.

Unload: Would love to see a %chance for projectiles to travel through the target and move on to the next… dunno if that’s feasable though.

Other things that could use a buff? Utility skills that are really under utilized?
(the above list is not meant to be exhaustive, just what came to mind on my lunch break.)

All traps are downright terrible

I wouldn’t say traps are terrible as much as too situational. Shorter cooldowns on them would be nice.

If they buffed richochet or gave pistols a piercing trait p/p would be so much better.

Some of the traps are pretty lackluster. Not the biggest fan of a “line” trap, I like the AoE “circular” traps.

Most of our traps and utility skills overlap themselves, so that’s something that Anet could look at. Caltrops and Needle Trap for example. I have never seen anyone use Needle Trap as it usually only hits one target, whereas the caltrops last for a period of time.

I would like the prospect of a longer base stealth but it can’t stack. i.e. 6 second stealth instead of 3 but it can’t stack with other stealth sources.

I would love to see more traps that cause conditions…. I have to agree, the Line trap doesn’t feel so great in open PvE or WvW, but makes for some good use in confined areas (dungeons) and some specific sections of WvW (gates into keeps.)

I flat don’t use any traps that teleport me…. it feels a lot less than 100% reliable and controlable.

In general, I kind of envy Rangers thier traps… not that I think thief traps should clone ranger traps, but I would love a trap that did a stationary version of Dancing Daggers…. maybe that’s too engineer turret like, but I think it would be a cool mechanic.

How many people use venoms asside from Spider Venom?

Of things that need improvements, pistols and traps definitely top the list. I also think our downed state needs to be looked at, it manages to be a bit too good in PvP while being wretched in PvE.

more dependable condition damage options like burning on a weapon ability,
Reduced init cost of DB or more stacks/hit,
Ricochet talent to be 100% to cause pistol shots to bounce 2-3 times,
Flanking strike pathing,
1200 range on SB or Pistol talent,
Making venoms and traps worth the utility slot or at least merging the venoms into a weapon ability of each set and removing them from Utility slot,
Init cost on Infiltrators arrow reduced greatly even if it means getting rid of the blind

If p/p had a reliable way to access stealth(like as the op suggested black powder also having a stealth) id use it over p/d. and as far as traps ambush trap works great with a venom share thief.

Teerwik.1650:

more dependable condition damage options like burning on a weapon ability,
1200 range on SB or Pistol talent,

1) Agree, would love access to burning… off the top of my head, I don’t think we have access to burning. Some might say that it’s not very ‘thiefy’ to set things on fire… but personally, I think arson is exatly that… sneaking up and lighting things on fire!

2) We have 1200 range on SB with Cluster Bomb…. but I would love to see 1200 range on Choking Gas! (speaking of 1200 range… I would love to see Thief get a rifle ala Sniper… but I think that would be a far more massive update.)

They could merge venoms into traps, and make needle trap work similarly to caltrops. Currently, caltrops are the best trap, and they’re not even a trap. I use ambush trap often, and I’ve used all of the traps in combination effectively, but it’s very difficult to warrant putting two traps at a time on utility bar currently. I’d love to be able to use a transmutation window to build my own skill with the venoms and traps, at least until something is done with those two categories.

p/p does not have any movement. Any kind of movement. Intead of 2 for example.
unload is fine damage wise but is hard to land whole one. how about an awesome reward for being able to land it whole?
Head Shot is epic as it is.
Body shot… 5% damage will never make up for 4 ini. Better to rework to either movement ability or movement impairing attack (for example, as reward for being in melee range)
D/P – 3 – rooting off please
S/P – 3 – please make it viable more than evade for ini / spam with quickness
S/D – 3 – needs redesign or serious fix
The way venoms are applied, used up and shared (aoe thing)
needle/tripwire traps
Trait lines need complete rework. Or at least fixed bugged ones and change in positions of those with senseless antisynergies.

I’d be for traps to have a set and arm function – particularly for shadow trap and needle trap, that way you have more control when you need them.

I still hold that CnD should be a riposte type skill, with a block and stealth, or give back initative.

I think Blinding Powder should actually make a smoke field.

I feel like Devourer Venom is the true elite, so move it there, get rid of basalisk venom. Then throw in a new venom in, perhaps one that deals blindness, confusion, or bleeding.

Of things that need improvements, pistols and traps definitely top the list. I also think our downed state needs to be looked at, it manages to be a bit too good in PvP while being wretched in PvE.

The problem is that it has no damage. You can escape people effectively in PvP which is all you really need there, but in PvE what you want is the ability to down an enemy so you can rally, and Thieves have no damage in the downed state. I think the best option would be to replace the cripple on the main attack with bleeding.
That would tone down their ability to escape in PvP a little which is a real complaint, and it would give you the ability to actually down something to rally.
Another option would be to make it single target, and give it a combination of a short duration cripple and bleed. I might prefer that, but I’m not sure of how balanced it may be.

CassieGold.7460:

In general, I kind of envy Rangers thier traps… not that I think thief traps should clone ranger traps, but I would love a trap that did a stationary version of Dancing Daggers…. maybe that’s too engineer turret like, but I think it would be a cool mechanic.

A bouncing Betty type trap IMHO would be worthwhile! Trigger trap and a spring loaded (jumping) frag type grenade goes off for aeo/condition goodness!

i would like to see:
1. poison effect added on more skills
2. cloack and dagger effect changed to 10 stacks of vulnerability +blind + poison
3. an defensive buff (stability / protection /aegis /regeneration /steal health )
4 and most of all -an buff on vennom’s : passive effect (vennom trigger once at 20 seconds)

i just ran around a bit and came to thinking – what about making body shot give a second of stealth if shot in melee range, poison at mid range and cripple at high range? This will allow synergy will both 1st slot by giving needed high-risk stealth, while being also more useful for 3slot by providing catcher against running away, and just plain poison when you tried either 1st or 3rd option but failed.
And unload again, anything that will add more damage will make it too strong in some conditions like when limiting opponent’s dodge by immobile or lack of endurance. Instead, for using a skill at that right time something like a utility boon of a duration based on number of hits. Like vigor of careful duration for the endurance-hungry p/p

edit: bit another section, poster above reminded: could cooldowns of the effects of things like “when using elite”, some of the “when using healing skill” be a bit more friendlier to variety of cooldowns on those skills? 6 piece set bonus should not be “oh and by the way you can get this at some times”. I an not suggesting a rework to make those effects more powerful, but it would be really nice to know if this particular basilisk venom that just finished his 36 sec cooldown will give me and my party an aegis i need or do i need to wait 10 more seconds

Some abilities are really lackluster.

1. Body Shot above all, seems to be very underwhelming and not interesting in the slightest.

2. I really, really despise the 900 Range limit we currently have. I can barely shoot up a wall at times. Please bump up our ranged weapons to at least 1000, maybe more.

3. Traps are situational and rarely a really good choice. If you want them to be viable, make them more powerful.

4. Some 3rd slot abilities like Flanking Strike really aren’t all that exciting.

5. Personally I’d like to see a few more abilities that allow us to Stealth. Currently C&D seems to be the only ability that does that.

CassieGold.7460:

Teerwik.1650:

more dependable condition damage options like burning on a weapon ability,
1200 range on SB or Pistol talent,

1) Agree, would love access to burning… off the top of my head, I don’t think we have access to burning. Some might say that it’s not very ‘thiefy’ to set things on fire… but personally, I think arson is exatly that… sneaking up and lighting things on fire!

2) We have 1200 range on SB with Cluster Bomb…. but I would love to see 1200 range on Choking Gas! (speaking of 1200 range… I would love to see Thief get a rifle ala Sniper… but I think that would be a far more massive update.)

how about backstab front no longer does direct damage, it does a 10 stacks of bleeding at long duration, and poison at long duration. Mug no longer does damage but knocks the target down for 2 seconds

Right off the top of my head, the thing I would most like to see is a bit of a buff to almost every single underwater skill except spear #3 and #5, combined with a nerf to those two. I also feel like our utility skills (particularly the elite) are severely limited for underwater, particularly if your on-land build favours condition damage and stealth (since virtually everything you use on land isn’t available under water so all of your traiting is wrong the second you put a toe in the water). I have to completely retrait any time I think I might have to spend any sustained time under water.

In a nutshell, underwater combat shouldn’t be “equip spear, circle/dodge, mash the #3 and #5 keys, rinse & repeat until someone dies”.

Less stabby stabby more pew pew pls

It would be fun and add something new if a land-weapon had a block/riposte move like Spear has. Maybe this move could even use endurance instead of initiative, which would be interesting from a resource-management POV.

Other than that, the group support capabilities are still a bit lacking or centered too much around Steal and chain blinding IMO, so how about the Thief could, being the swift Ninja he is, give his allies a short distortion buff, either by doing a flurry with his weapons and creating the distortion around himself (similar to the projectile-blocking move the Mesmer Focus Phantasm has) OR by quickly warping to the next target that is being hit after the skill activates, absorbing the hit with distortion and warping back.

S/D has an interesting Dual skill in theory, but the practical use of this skill is problematic, because of pathing problems and the fact that you are very vulnerable once the move ends. I would like to see a short rooting effect added at the end of the skill so you will end up being able to do sth again while your target is forced to face away from you for another 1/2 second. This would greatly improve the usability of this skill in PvE while the root should not be long enough to make it too strong in PvP.

I think the thing that most needs buffed is pistol offhand damage. Before people say “but those skills give so much utility!” So do dagger offhand skills. Dagger offhand skills also do good damage, pistol offhand skills do not.

another thing I think needs reworked is initiative itself.

Your initiative regen should go down every time you use the same skill within 5 seconds. It could go down to 0 initiative (not counting traits). If you go down to 0 initiative regen (using the same skill 5 times in a row) you should get a debuff called “predictable” that lasts 10 seconds. In predictable, all outgoing damage is reduced by 50% and base initiative regen is 0. The debuff is refreshed every time the same skill is used.

So you’d still be able to spam if you needed to, but it’d exhaust you and put you in a situation where you couldn’t do much, you’d have to probably flee the scene and wait it out.

To balance that out, base initiative regen would need to go up, so that a thief that is mixing up their skill usage is able to get the same actions per minute as other classes, allowing for our autoattack damage to go down so we don’t rely on autoattack so much in longer fights. Damage would need to be balanced across the skill bar so again, people don’t feel they have to spam 1 skill in order to do decent damage. That is, every skill needs to do more damage than autoattack. Autoattack needs to be something you do when conserving initiative, not the backbone of your damage.

You know, I was just thinking back to my fencing days in college and how much a bunch of us loved the Sword / Dagger off hand for disarm. I know there is a great deal of frustration with the mechanic of Flanking Strike, and I love the dagger as a parrying weapon which we really don’t see in most of the offhand dagger builds.

My notion would be to use the #3 slot on S/D for a stun /daze ability. Call it ‘Disarm’, but packing Daze on a melee set would give incentive for a nominally squishy thief to get into melee range of high end PvE bosses. Right now, I tend to alternate between D/D and SB on bosses because I have mobility on D/D when things get tense and I never want to hang out for long in melee range of a boss…. but giving us access to Daze on a pure melee set would be pretty decent. (Okay, I know S/D isn’t 100% Melee, but…)

Also in line with fighting styles using S/D, the same mechanic an above poster mentioned of having a Bloc / Attack move…. it’s a Risk / Reward tactic at most times, especially if you have to root for it, but if the cycle time was quick enough, it could be a very interesting mechanic…. and maybe give some more survive ability to a class that gets forced into frequent Glass Cannon roles.

I had a similiar idea to Cassie for S/D – Flanking Strike is actually good for me, but the style strikes me as more of a swordplay style than a finesse style. A channeled block/daze + damage on successful block type of mechanic would be nice. The animation could be something along the lines of holding the dagger forwards, and a slight step sideways dragging the dagger down to simulate a parry, followed by a quick sword flourish that does a good chuck of damage while the enemy is dazed.

My suggestions for Pistol/Pistol

1.) Vital Shot – Increase the damage. Make it apply vulnerability instead of a bleed.

2.) Body Shot – two ideas here:
a.)change it into a cripple to help address the kits mobility issues
b.)change it into a small scale AoE (maybe a shotgun blast type cone AoE)

3.)Unload – Once again, two suggestions:
a.)reduce the initiative cost to 4, and perhaps speed the animation up slightly (10%ish)
b.)Increase the damage (10-15% would probably cover it)

4.) Head Shot – two suggestions:
a.)reduce the initiative cost
b.) increase the damage substantially (300-400%)

5) Black Powder – This ability is fine. It’s only lackluster because Vital Shot is so weak for P/P. Buffing Vital Shot would in turn make Black Powder a more appealing ability.

Side note: Consider buffing the pistol ricochet trait. 5% is too low, 15%- 20 is more reasonable and would at least give P/P a small scale AoE

Blacksarevok.8104:

4.) Head Shot – two suggestions:
a.)reduce the initiative cost
b.) increase the damage substantially (300-400%)

Head Shot doesn’t really have problems, it is great at what it does (on-demand interrupts). I think the idea to give it 100 % crit chance would be cool though. The problem is that since P/P lacks a good burst direct damage option people want to change abilities like Head Shot that already hold a solid role to fill that gap.

Some ideas and reworks:

• Black Powder: Add Confusion ticks for enemies that remain inside the field
• Smoke Screen: Changed to a PBAoE like blinding powder, add confusion ticks for enemies inside the field.
• Fix Flanking Strikes Pathing
• Body Shot: Change animation to two attacks, one with the right hand one with the left, each shot grants 5 vulnerability. Or one shot applies vulnerability while the other removes a boon.
• Vital Shot: Change animation to use both pistols if the offhand pistol is present.
• Trait that improves damage or crit chance against blind enemies
• Trait that improves damage or crit chance against dazed enemies
• Remove blind from infiltrator shot and improve the range
• Change traps from line to circle and let make them persist for a couple of seconds like caltrops.

Auesis.7301:

I had a similiar idea to Cassie for S/D – Flanking Strike is actually good for me, but the style strikes me as more of a swordplay style than a finesse style. A channeled block/daze + damage on successful block type of mechanic would be nice. The animation could be something along the lines of holding the dagger forwards, and a slight step sideways dragging the dagger down to simulate a parry, followed by a quick sword flourish that does a good chuck of damage while the enemy is dazed.

I really like this idea. It continues the whole control aspect of S/D. Roughly the same damage as Flanking Strike (maybe a slight increase), but instead of an evade it’s a channeled block that dazes opponents when they hit you.
On a somewhat related note;
I would really like to see unpopular weapon sets (like S/D, P/D, etc). to be buffed or changed to make them more competitive. I’m sick of seeing 95% of Thieves wielding dual daggers…

I’ve played pistol/pistol thief for probably a hundred+ hours now across PvE (including dungeons)/PvP/WvWvW and I don’t think it needs a buff that much. Unload is an incredibly useful skill; with the right traits and gear, you’re looking at 4.5-6k damage per use of it, and if you use Haste and have Preparedness, you can get 3 uses of it out of one Haste. It’s one of the (best/only) ranged burst damage skills thieves have, and if you’re using a venom build you can apply all your stacks of venoms in one skill.

There are some good suggestions in this thread, but I don’t think removing bleed from Vital Shot is that great an idea; being able to constantly apply bleed and continually whittle away at an enemy’s health while waiting for initiative recharge or utility cooldown is pretty handy, though vulnerability could be an interesting replacement.

I use Body Shot very rarely; the time it takes to actually shoot and the initiative cost usually mean it’s not worth it to use compared to other skills. I do sometimes use it on Veteran Supervisors when they need to have vulnerability stacked on them. I think it could use a reworking of some sort, perhaps adding a cripple also.

Unload is, as I said above, pretty great and my bread-and-butter. You can move while you use it, cancel it easily, and it does quite a good bit of damage. With the best Venom traits and using 3 utility Venoms and Basilisk Venom, you quickly apply a ton of conditions at once and can follow it up with 1-2 more Unload uses. It’s also got 900 range, which is pretty great for such a high-damage skill. No changes needed here, I don’t think.

Head Shot is situationally useful, but much like Body Shot, I usually go for another skill. There are perks to the skill, and in WvWvW it’s very handy for stopping Veteran Guards from using their healing skill (it’s also good for hitting a fleeing player), but it needs to have an extra effect to make it worth the time to shoot/initiative cost.

Black Powder is actually pretty darn useful in PvE; you can use it to take on enemies that aren’t necessarily TOO tough for you, but that might do too much damage at once to be easily manageable, since if you get in close and hit it, you get the initial blinding and then each subsequent Vital Shot adds to it. I don’t think adding stealth to this skill would be balanced, but since pistol has zero mobility skills, perhaps adding 2 or so seconds of swiftness for you and allies that pass through the field could be a neat tweak.

Great thread overall though.

Pistol #2 needs to do damage. Pistol/Dagger is marginal because it’s utterly dependent on CnD/Sneak Attack to be worthwhile and as such is totally worthless at range (which makes all the kiting skills on 3/4 bad); Pistol/Pistol is weak because its damage is relatively poor and it has no escapes.

An attack skill that does decent damage and is also a blast finisher solves both of these problems and is what that weapon needs to have a good play pattern – giving it solid ranged damage allows P/D to play at range, and making it a blast finisher gives P/P a lot more flexibility from allowing it to trigger its own combo fields.

You’ll probably want to tweak Vital Shot and Unload as well (nerfed into the ground during betas); they’re both weak skills in their respective roles.

It would be nice if Cluster Bomb did what it said it did (apply 3 stacks of bleeding), but that’s just a quality of life thing to make the weapon easier to use and not so dependent on detonating right before impact.

While it’s not a priority, the spear’s stealth attack (Stab) is comically bad; I’d almost rather get a normal hit off than this thing just to get the chain started faster.

I won’t comment on sword combinations as I do not enjoy its play pattern.

On utilities:

I really, really, really want to be able to aim Withdraw and Roll for Initiative. Having to pull some camera shenanigans to get these skills to aim properly is just bad gameplay and not fun.

Signet of Agility is not working properly, or its definition of nearby is comically small; it pulls one condition every time in my experience, which makes it a rather weak skill.

The traps in general need some help – I’d particularly like to see the damage traps hit a pretty big AoE when triggered instead of being the single target affairs they are now. Really though traps are just kind of awkward to use and I don’t see a good way to give them the utility they’d need to break into the very limited selections you can already make. That is, they aren’t poor due to power concerns, but simply are not strong designs.

Besides Devourer the Venoms are all pretty bad; they’re more or less balanced around the silly things that can happen from Venom sharing. Even with that, though, most of these are still really bad – you’d have to make the poison from spider venom last something like 5 minutes to get me to touch it. I think all the Venoms need to cast instantly if they’re ever going to have a chance of doing anything.

Auesis.7301:

I had a similiar idea to Cassie for S/D – Flanking Strike is actually good for me, but the style strikes me as more of a swordplay style than a finesse style. A channeled block/daze + damage on successful block type of mechanic would be nice. The animation could be something along the lines of holding the dagger forwards, and a slight step sideways dragging the dagger down to simulate a parry, followed by a quick sword flourish that does a good chuck of damage while the enemy is dazed.

I’ve gotta disagree on that one. Those “sit and wait until you block an attack” abilities aren’t fun. Our underwater spear has a skill like that, and it makes our underwater play extremely dull. I’d rather see something where you do a pomel bash to daze the target then shadowstep behind them to deliver a venomous shiv to the kidney. Could then chain into an ability where you pull out the shiv to cause bleeding and extra damage (as an added feature, and also to prevent the daze from being spammed too quickly)

Regarding Flanking Strike, I think the ability functions itself are fine. It’s just the animation pathing that needs fixing, if turning it into a shadowstep is the only way to accomplish this then that is all we need IMO.

First Strike (base dmg)-remove boon-shadowstep-second strike (high dmg)

A lot of what has been said already.

Pistol Whip feels like just a 5 init cost 1 sec stun now. There’s no point in using it for the damage.

Flanking Strike feels worthless for anything other than a 1 on 1 pve tank n spank fight.

Pistol/Pistol is just lacking something.

Body Shot really needs a boost. Seems to me that the vast majority of “applies vulnerability” effects are grossly overvalued. As if they were tuned with the scenario of 25 people attacking this single huge hp target in mind, when that situation accounts for maybe 2% of the game.

My five cent:

Weapon skills

Sword:

Flanking strike: parry and incoming attack and shadowstep behind the foe to strike them in the back inflicting bleeding.

Dagger off-hand

Dancing dagger: well maybe lower the dmg output a bit:) I myself abuse it but I agree that it can be a bit too strong against rangers or two ppl staying too close to each other:)

Pistol main hand:

Piercing shot to the knee: shot two bullets at the foes knee cripple him and strike foes behind him in a straight line, this can be performed while not facing the foe (just for an awesome animation like the shortbow:D) if equipped with pistol off hand you shot one bullet from each pistol:D

Pistol off hand:

Head shot: daze the enemy and cause vulnability (or maybe give a group buff for 2 sec fury) the one which is less OP and still makes sense.

Infiltraitors bullet: create a smoke screen at your position and shadowstep X ft backwards.

Again the last one is not as strong as infiltraitors arrow since you cannot decide where you go, the upside is that it is faster to use and create smokescreen for blind if you shot through it or stealth if you leap through it.. So I decided for X as range.. Cause I wanted it to be 900 so we got an alternative instead of being forced to use shortbow if we want to escape, but then again 600 or 400 would match the leaps we got which would be great for retreat and stealth tactics. And how great wouldn’t it be to see a thief spamming this xD leaping backwards leaving small patches of smoke xD

Tl:dr make pistol off-hand a mobile option so we both got shortbow and pistol off-hand to flee with. Not OP since they share CD (red. Initiative).

Range issue. I would make steal, shortbow and maybe pistol 1200 range. Not sure about pistol, like the 900. Steal can be achieved through trait which should be removed. Real range profession would still have longer range if traited.

Traits:

“Ricochet” should be replaced with “explosive shells” making all of you bullets exploed for a small 1 sec burn and aoe. Maybe remove the burn since unload would be too awesome:D idk since some think unload is low on dmg it could be creat but don’t want to force trait just because ppl like the gunslinger type.
Move this trait to the critical strike so there is more synergy between the traits.. Don’t want to spread em out too much, just make em interesting enough so ppl want to spread it out.

Remove “haste” and improve “critical hast” til 20-25% with 45 CD. I know less skillbased and more RGN based, but then it is harder to do the “hast” + every multiple hit combo unless u are very aware on when it prox.. Maybe make an animation for the prox or sound.

Remove “ankle shot” and replaced withn"explosive shells"

Move “mug” down and let it replace the old “long reach”. I think the trickery trait line should give you the choice of making steal a support option or more selfish sololike:)

Remove “improvisation” down to trickery and make it refresh what is on CD or the one with longest CD, not just random between traps, venoms, signets etc.

Last replace “Hasten replenishment” with “Hidden crew”, remove “Hidden thief” from Shadow Art. “Hidden crew” create a 2sec shadow refuge at the spot you shadowstep to.

“Hidden thief” replaced with “master of shadows” reduce the debuff after stealth “revealed” by 1sec. Hope it is not to OP.

Profession mechanism

Steal: shadowstep to a target and steal an ability. Range 1200, CD 35-40 ( untraited ) just feel like we should be able to use it some more like other professions. I know it is powerfull, but so are others. But at least not as bad as adrenalin xD

Steal with no target (get a message that you got no target). Steal with target out of range.. Hmm either u shadowstep towards him as gap-closer (then not totally waste) or just go on 2-3 sec CD.

That’s it for now. Please come with feedback, might be biased a bit and some abilities are a bit too op.

If there wont be a big revamp of the init system, then:
Give the weaponswap sigils and the weaponswap trait in the acrobatic like a internal cooldown, then remove the CD for swapping weapons for thiefs, or lower it to 1-2 seconds.
Init limits thiefs already with their abilities, dont see a reason why a swap cooldown is necessary there.

Or:
Give every weaponset their own initbar. Problem is that that it makes certain moves too spamable if you equipt 2 times the same weaponset.

Pistol Mainhand:
Make the autoattack a chain of 2 attacks. First one does big direct dmg, second one big condition dmg. (or the other way around). That way P/P can utilize the autoattack better while conditionbuilds still have condition dmg on their autoattack.
or
Change bodyshot totally to somekind of stance buff. Press it once and you load bullets which do more direct dmg for the auto attack and if you press it in that stance, you load bullets which do more bleed damage and less direct. The stance could also apply for pistol offhand so you have a ranged way on applying bleeds on P/P with less survivability (unload) while P/D offers much more stealth for applying bleeds on melee-range.

P/D
Shadow Strike has no place in that skillset as the whole damage and survivability of that build comes from cloak and dagger.
Either change it that you regenerate some init when you sucessfully execute it, or turn it into a gapcloser which P/D lacks alot.
Or
Let Shadow strike stealth you for 1-2 seconds after you have hit your target. But as its pretty easy to hit with it, it would make it too easy compared to CnD.

We definitely need a 1200 range option. Cluster Bomb is not enough. While some melee based thieves have found a way to be effective during a WvWvW siege, it isn’t a playstyle for everyone.

One of the following would do:

• Add a master level trait that increases all Shortbow skills range by 300. (This is what I would prefer most, cause Shortbow and AoE is what WvWvW sieges are all about.)
• Add the rifle as a Thief weapon set. Have it offer a variety of Single Target / AoE skills between 1200 – 1500 range. SNIPER!
• Add a master level trait that increases all Pistol skills range by 300.

P/P is the weakest weapon set. There are already many good suggestions here in the thread. Please please please look into reworking this skill set (did I remember to say please?).

1. Vital Shot – Actually, I’m fine with this.
(1) Sneak Attack – I like this one too, but it’s difficult to take full advantage of this as P/P.
2. Body Shot – Cast time is too long, damage is too weak, and vulnerability isn’t as effective as other professions. Maybe this should be changed to Poison condition?
3. Unload – It does not do enough damage. It takes very long to channel. It doesn’t offer an utility or conditions. It’s animation is so visual, that it makes it obvious to opponents ‘Dodge out of this now!’.
4. Headshot – I agree with others, this should do significantly more damage.
5. Black Powder – Adding stealth field to this ability (perhaps limited to the caster) would make it amazing!

Thanks for reading! I hope to see some buffs soon to us Thieves that are not Backstabbers or Pistol Whippers!

I would like to see Cluster Bomb hit the target faster. Currently if you fire it at 1200 range, it soars up in the sky, pierces the asteroid belt orbiting saturn, falls back down through the atmosphere, THEN hits the ground. Its like a full rainbow!

Body Shot is also pretty horrible. Should do more damage, and either give 10% vulnerability or have the 5% last longer. I would like it to be more like Hunters Arrow, a way to boost the damage from our Unloads. I feel this would help get P/P to where it needs to be.

Also, the trait ricochet could use some improvement. No one in their right mind would take this if they wanted AE damage from pistols. 5% chance is nothing! 50% chance is more realistic. However a more reliable alternative for the trait would be “your pistol attacks bounce to nearby enemies dealing half their normal damage”.

I agree with other posters that Black Powder should be a stealth field. P/P cant really use sneak attack outside of a 1minute cd utility skill.

Im sure it would have to be tweaked in some way, like instead of actually being a field, it would function more like blinding powder.

I spend most of my time these days testing different Thief Weaponsets in tournaments and honestly so many of them are very close to being great they just need a few skills tweaked for PvP. I’ll go though my opinions on them and what could possibly improve them.
D/D and S/P are very solid as is all of the abilities have a clear and defined use in PvP.

S/D – My personal favorite weaponset, the ONLY thing that this set needs is better tracking on Flanking Strike. The weaponset lacks an Initiative dump to allow it to do damage and this is largely because the target tracking on flanking strike is unreliable. Its amazing that it goes through block and removes a boon you’re just taking a huge risk spending initiative on it because the hits rarely land.

Ive actually used this skill on a trebuchet(Stationary target) and spun away from it completely only to miss both attacks.

Pistol/Pistol – Pistols desperately need a piercing trait to start, nothing is more frustrating then seeing half of your unload being blocked by a mesmer clone or ranger pet or a target you’re not intending to hit.

Body Shot the 2nd ability needs either a faster cast time, more damage or both. I like the vulnerability alot, I like the idea of priming a target for your team to focus, but the cast time and the lackluster damage make it hard to justify spending initiative on it when you could just be unloading.

Unload actually does respectable damage considering it can be dealt from safety though slightly less than other sets when they run glass cannon, the issue with unload is that it is COMPLETELY owned by retaliation and confusion. I recognize the awareness needed to adjust your playstyle to these boons/conditions but with the abundance of retal it’s very scary to actually use your initiative on unload with a guardian around. One thing to help this could be unload doing a slightly smaller amount of hits that hit harder so the damage is around the same.

I like the 4/5 on Pistols alot great for utility and interrupting heals or spells and stomping with the 5.

D/P – This is an interesting set and actually not half bad but the blind on Shadow shot seems a bit redundant with the 5 from pistol being accessible. I think something like a cripple/chill instead of the blind could possibly round this weaponset out to help you stick on targets after you teleport to them.

P/D – This is in my eyes the condition weaponset it works so well with a carrion amulet, but suffers again from body shot being a bit lackluster. Your rotation primarily is cloak & dagger into sneak attack with the occasional dancing dagger in select situations.

Shadow Strike is a cool ability but I feel like it may lack a little synergy with the weaponset, its hard to really say but as is with pistol dagger it just feels like a situational defensive ability to gain distance. A blind or a poison could go nicely towards making this ability more desirable to use, or possibly just a bit more damage on the dagger or pistol portion.

Overall the weaponsets are good but many of the sets that are unpopular are just missing a few things to tie it all together to compete with D/D and S/P. I didnt go over shortbow either because it’s amazing.

Our utilities are actually great too , I think 1/2 venoms could use a bit of reworking mainly skale since the vulnerability is very short and chances are if you’re running venoms you’re using spider venom and you have the minor trait that causes your poison to cause weakness so the weakness isn’t very valuable either.

The major concern is that most traps aren’t entirely useful. They all have cool concepts but the thin line to trigger them renders them a bit innefective in PvP. I’d like to see them be about the size of ranger traps if possible allowing them to land reliably or at the very least add in a trait that allows you to throw them(in the acrobatics tree preferably).

While we’re on the subject of traits Pistol,Dagger and Shortbow all have damage increasing traits but there currently are no traits affecting Swords whatsoever.

That’s my wishlist for Thief changes/improvements, hope this helps!

Okay so if Anet is planning to destroy our burst, here are some things that thiefs really need to make other sets way more interesting and appealing.

First of all: Pistol/pistol

I tried, i really tried, i even bought 2 Mystic revolvers to have the max dmg output and because i really like the p/p scheme but unload is just not viable. Specially not in WvW/pve.

Here are some “realistic” suggestions that p/p could use.

1. A damage boost is needed, the actual damage makes the set completly useless when out of initiative (3 unload)
2. Why would i even use that, 5 vuln stacks is not worth, when i could just use unload and do way more damage than what that 5% dmg would offer. Giving this a cripple would make the skill way more usefull and more synergetic with the Medium range pistol offer.
3. Needs a damage boost and an Animation speed boost, both by 10-15%. Right now its just too easy to avoid, 2 dodges and you are out of initiative finding yourslef spamming 1 with almost no outgoing dmg.
4. Works as intended, perhaps could use a damage boost. Maybe give the same dmg formula as Dancing dagger.
5.Hmm no synergy at all with the rest of pistol but still good utility to fight ganks and so. Perhaps give this the ability to burst the field giving stealth to yourself. That would be a good fix.

HatoraDe.9582:

P/D – This is in my eyes the condition weaponset it works so well with a carrion amulet, but suffers again from body shot being a bit lackluster. Your rotation primarily is cloak & dagger into sneak attack with the occasional dancing dagger in select situations.

This is where I wonder if Body Shot did poison instead of vulnerability it would add to the strength of P/D being a good condition build.

Rayya.2591:

i would like to see:
1. poison effect added on more skills
2. cloack and dagger effect changed to 10 stacks of vulnerability +blind + poison
3. an defensive buff (stability / protection /aegis /regeneration /steal health )
4 and most of all -an buff on vennom’s : passive effect (vennom trigger once at 20 seconds)

2/3/4 no, its all oriented into condition builds. Thief does not need stability as he has stealth he dont need aeagis too, Steal health coud be worth a shot but there are ways to heal up with damage too, might be too strong combined lifesteal/life gain builds/
Venoms dont need passive however some venoms need a buff. 1 second chill is next to useless. Venom share with passive effects, is too powerfull. CnD wouldnt be good that way as it would have too much synergy with p/d while losing any synergy to sword dagger since its only thiefs, only power regulated set, blind in it would be too similar to black powder but, melee range.

Also no acess to backstab/daze/ pistol stealth attack w/o stealth on CnD would make lots of builds useless

I would kill to be able to us S/D in PvE. I agree that a defensive ability (block/parry → counter attack) would be a fun and interesting addition to the thief. Currently our only move like that is our 3 slot on the spear, which I find to be very enjoyable.

Changes I would make for P/P builds.

- Body Shot changed to a cripple
- Combined Training buffed to 10% instead of 5%
- Ankle Shots changed from 60% chance to cripple for 3 seconds to 60% chance to immobilize for 3 seconds
- Unload reduced to 4 Initiative, animation sped up by 25%, damage buffed by 5%
- Black Powder gives 2 seconds Stealth on use

General changes:

- Flanking Strike now evades in place has a .25 second immobilize and the animation is 25% faster
- Sniper Rifle or Crossbow added for a single target 1200 range WvW weapon
- Power Shots changed to 10% more damage with Shortbow and Sniper Rifle/Crossbow and switches places with Quick Venoms.
- Self root removed from Shadow Shot
- Steal is no long able to interrupt other skills

Well, that is what I can think of for now. If I think of any more I will add them. Shadow Arts and Acrobatics could definitely use some fixes.

P/P definitely needs a buff

*Someone mentioned making black powder give stealth. I 100% agree, same stats as before but gives the Thief 3 seconds of stealth.

*Body Shot needs a total reworking, high cast time, low vulnerability stack and high initiative cost with minimal damage…it’s probably the worst weapon skill in the game.

I’d suggest lowering its cast time (significantly) and initiative cost to 3 or totally revamping the ability to allow for some mobility options.

*Unload should stack bleeds for each shot. It would be a significant buff to Thief condition builds but not entirely overpowered because players have loads of condition removals.

S/P to be honest feels like it was overnerfed.

*Pistol Whip needs a buff, auto-attacking does comparable damage unless I pop haste and a half-decent player wont stand still in the Pistol Whip.

As for general buffs, please buff traps. I never use them because they are highly situational and often ineffective. Give the Thief a reason to use them.

As for the general nerf to damage spikes, I feel Hidden Killer is part of the problem here, it’s clearly a trait for backstab builds. Give it a cooldown, fix the rendering issue

(yesterday in WvW an ally had this happen, a Glass Cannon thief was perma invis and wailed on my ally, killing him another was about to die while healing because he was invisible for well over 5 seconds so I had to shadow step in and pop Dagger Storm to make the perma invisible thief retreat.)

As a final note I’d love to see a Sniper Rifle weapon set added to the Thief.

1) Traps are pretty much junk. If they could trigger more consistently, have a larger AoE effect range, and actually do something substancial, then they’d be worth using. As it currently stands, I’d only ever use them in a specialized build (which isn’t even viable at this time.) Like everyone has been saying, the only “trap” worth using is Caltrops and it isn’t even a Trap power.

2) Even though I’m running a Venomous Aura (VA) build, I often have a hard time justifying my Venom powers. With all of the paranoia about VA builds in the sPvP environment, Venom powers remain in a quasi-gutted state. If you’re not running a VA spec, then you’d maybe use Spider or Devourer Venom in very specific builds and situations. But beyond that, I’d never use them. Then that doesn’t even begin to touch how I loathe Basilisk Venom. The only reason to even run that Elite as a PvE VA Thief is for grouping situations, but I still only use it them for triggering my Superior Runes of Lyssa (for the condition removal).

3) Right now, I feel like condition removal is a bit of a problem for Thief characters. You either need to take 10 pts in Shadow Arts for a Stealth build, use Hide in Shadows as your heal, or use Shadow Step (which most PvE people will probably refuse to do). Our own Signet power only removes x1 condition, which doesn’t make it the most attractive for condition removal. Beyond that, you’re reduced to Sword #2 spamming for x5 Initiative to remove just a single condition. Since ArenaNet seems to be against introducing more Stealth abilities due to the constant sPvP / WvW complaints about stealthing builds, we really need some other way to get condition removal (aka Burn, Bleed, Poison, Confusion) that doesn’t involve Stealth.

4) I completely agree that Main-Hand Pistol needs a serious buff. Once I unlocked those skills on my Thief and so how ineffective they were, I un-equiped my MH Pistol and never used it again.

*Unload should stack bleeds for each shot. It would be a significant buff to Thief condition builds but not entirely overpowered because players have loads of condition removals.

No thank you. This would completely destroy my burst damage Unload build which is already weaker than many other builds. Condition Thief is fine for the most part.