Guild Wars 2

“Removes stealth from enemies and reveals them for 30 seconds, preventing stealth.” AT a range of 1200 radius from the trap.

Any class OTHER than thief gets an entire trap dedicated to THEM in WvW? NONE, that’s right.

Great game design Anet, just delete us already and be done with it. Now thieves have NO REASON AT ALL to participate in zergs where they will be constantly destealthed for this time.

What are we without stealth? If you’re gonna kitten on stealth like this, give us 1.2-1.5x damage back, so we can desperately land a single backstab before we are stunlocked and kittened backwards.

can you actually land a backstab if you can’t stealth ???

You can’t backstab without stealth, you’re right.

So used to playing the class that I didn’t think twice about it…

This is a sad day indeed for thieves. This nerf is bad, but what’s worse is that they put it in. This only means we should continue to expect nerfs to our core mechanics until we really ARE just warriors.

sigh Any ideas for a class to reroll, guys? Or should I just wait for Elder Scrolls Online…

The nerf affects Mesmers more than Thieves. Do you think anyone is going to put down a trap just to catch one single Thief? Waste 15 badges for a chance to get 2 badges? Makes no sense.

Conversely, stealth already didn’t do anything in zergs. With all the spells being thrown around nobody cares if you are in stealth or not. Go ahead, press stealth in a large zerg fight. it doesn’t do anything (and you should be shooting from a distance anyway).

Stealth didn’t make any difference in zerg fights so the lack of stealth doesn’t make any difference now.

In 1 week everyone will realize that nothing has changed except veil/portal bombs are much harder to pull off. These traps are expensive enough that they will only be used on large numbers of people, and so it is much more of a nerf to the utility of Mesmers.

So yes, you should reroll a Mesmer. Then be like “ohh so that’s what the nerf was for”.

Edit:
And before the same old argument of “we have more stealth skills than mesmers” pops up, realize that is a completely pointless argument. But eventually, someone is gonna mention it and be like “see we suck”. So read this:

-Traps are expensive and not worth it to use on small numbers of people
-They can only be effectively used for a chokepoint (if anyone tries to circle a supply camp with them, be my guest. It will take more supply than the camp itself has)
-Nobody is going to use them on Thieves because it is a complete and utter waste of supply. It doesn’t matter how many badges or how much karma you have. Your server has a limited amount of supply.
-They are only good for
1) Stopping veil bombs
2) Stopping an invisible Mesmer from portaling the entire zerg in.

It doesn’t have anything to do with how many stealth skills this class has because nobody is going to use it on one Thief. Do people build arrow carts in fields to counter random roamers? Didn’t think so. Arrow carts (like these traps) are only used at strategic locations and not everywhere people feel like fighting.

Stop with all the complaints already – if anything, Mesmers should be left wondering why Anet keeps nerfing their utility.

TLDR:
-Nobody is going to use it on random roaming Thieves
-It will only be used in zerg fights and at choke points.
-Stealth doesn’t even do anything in large fights – before the patch did you see Thieves run straight into the enemy zerg while stealthed?
-Stop complaining about this already. Mesmers had a 50% confusion nerf and now this, and you don’t see them complaining as much.

And if they do use it on a random Thief, they just wasted 10 supply and 15 badges for one kill. So when you step on that trap, you’ve denied them 1/3 of an arrow cart.

Just like some of the previous posters have said: anti-stealth traps are not gonna be a problem for the roaming thief. Too expensive, requires 10 supplies and the cost is just way too high.

The anti-supply trap is another thing. Just look at this new VotF video showing a thief own the enemy teams in WvWvW and denying them supply over and over again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv4P-kTBzE0

Now imagine somebody providing that thief stability or thief providing stealth for his ally full bunker guardian. Enemy teams won’t have any supplies. Gg, and another epic fail from Arenanet.

So in other words: this latest patch gave more power to thieves since they have the best access to stealth. So just relax and you can continue to play Thief Wars 2.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Just like some of the previous posters have said: anti-stealth traps are not gonna be a problem for the roaming thief. Too expensive, requires 10 supplies and the cost is just way too high.

The anti-supply trap is another thing. Just look at this new VotF video showing a thief own the enemy teams in WvWvW and denying them supply over and over again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv4P-kTBzE0

Now imagine somebody providing that thief stability or thief providing stealth for his ally full bunker guardian. Enemy teams won’t have any supplies. Gg, and another epic fail from Arenanet.

So in other words: this latest patch gave more power to thieves since they have the best access to stealth. So just relax and you can continue to play Thief Wars 2.

Finally I see something good in these traps

me gusta !!! …. troll land, here i come ! XD

I have already seen it used on roaming thieves. But if I want to help a zerg take a keep I can’t because I will get kittened by a stealth trap, so it discourages me from group play now. People can do the jumping puzzle to get badges, and don’t mind wasting their badges from other kills to take out a class that they’re too lazy to counter intelligently.

And mesmer? What the kitten ever, man. Thief is built around stealth, how many skills/utilities and traits do we have dealing with stealth vs a mesmer? There’s your answer.

Not to mention, mesmer no stealth, is perfectly fine. Stealth taken away from thief (depending on which exact build): our main defense is gone, our main damage source is gone, our main team utility (stealth healing etc) is GONE.

What are we supposed to do? Start spamming heartseeker again now? It’s so nerfed full initiative will drop them by 1/3 health. Then they stun and kill you anyway.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Thief Wars 2.

lol…. Dude, this sounds so pathetic! Just because thieves are capable of doing few things here and there doesn’t mean the whole game is meant for them -_-. This is the role of thieves, they can scout, roam, and build traps… etc. The rest of the classes got their own uses in different situations….

what bothers me is not the zerg fight, when you cast random aoe, nor the 1vX fight in which you can actually see if someone puts the trap and (at least try to) avoid it, but the small skirmish – 3/4 vs 6/7 … anyone can put a trap anywhere and you won’t see it and someone else will trigger it and completely screw you.

Sunflowers.1729:

The nerf affects Mesmers more than Thieves. Do you think anyone is going to put down a trap just to catch one single Thief? Waste 15 badges for a chance to get 2 badges? Makes no sense.

Conversely, stealth already didn’t do anything in zergs. With all the spells being thrown around nobody cares if you are in stealth or not. Go ahead, press stealth in a large zerg fight. it doesn’t do anything (and you should be shooting from a distance anyway).

Stealth didn’t make any difference in zerg fights so the lack of stealth doesn’t make any difference now.

In 1 week everyone will realize that nothing has changed except veil/portal bombs are much harder to pull off. These traps are expensive enough that they will only be used on large numbers of people, and so it is much more of a nerf to the utility of Mesmers.

So yes, you should reroll a Mesmer. Then be like “ohh so that’s what the nerf was for”.

Edit:
And before the same old argument of “we have more stealth skills than mesmers” pops up, realize that is a completely pointless argument. But eventually, someone is gonna mention it and be like “see we suck”. So read this:

-Traps are expensive and not worth it to use on small numbers of people
-They can only be effectively used for a chokepoint (if anyone tries to circle a supply camp with them, be my guest. It will take more supply than the camp itself has)
-Nobody is going to use them on Thieves because it is a complete and utter waste of supply. It doesn’t matter how many badges or how much karma you have. Your server has a limited amount of supply.
-They are only good for
1) Stopping veil bombs
2) Stopping an invisible Mesmer from portaling the entire zerg in.

It doesn’t have anything to do with how many stealth skills this class has because nobody is going to use it on one Thief. Do people build arrow carts in fields to counter random roamers? Didn’t think so. Arrow carts (like these traps) are only used at strategic locations and not everywhere people feel like fighting.

Stop with all the complaints already – if anything, Mesmers should be left wondering why Anet keeps nerfing their utility.

TLDR:
-Nobody is going to use it on random roaming Thieves
-It will only be used in zerg fights and at choke points.
-Stealth doesn’t even do anything in large fights – before the patch did you see Thieves run straight into the enemy zerg while stealthed?
-Stop complaining about this already. Mesmers had a 50% confusion nerf and now this, and you don’t see them complaining as much.

And if they do use it on a random Thief, they just wasted 10 supply and 15 badges for one kill. So when you step on that trap, you’ve denied them 1/3 of an arrow cart.

If that were the case the trap could have simply pulsed a 3s reveal every second for 10s in the same radius. 30s reveal is pretty clearly targeted at thieves caught in the trap.

And again, it’s not about the actual cost/application effectiveness of the trap – I’m not a fan of Anet introducing any effect that effectively invalidates an entire traitline, some traits outside that line, multiple utilities, and more for any class.

Well I understand why they are introduced but it will affect the roaming thief as well, no worries I’m sure we’ll get those 30sec cannot block traps soon. I dunno this may be a silly idea – haven’t WVW for a while tho.

I haven’t had my roaming affected by any of these traps yet. If I ever see someone put one down in a small scale battle, I’ll trigger it intentionally to see if I really can’t just Shadowstep and IA away for 30s. I’m going to go ahead and guess that using this against a roamer is a waste of badges and supply, but I’ll see if they can catch me.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Just like some of the previous posters have said: anti-stealth traps are not gonna be a problem for the roaming thief. Too expensive, requires 10 supplies and the cost is just way too high.

The anti-supply trap is another thing. Just look at this new VotF video showing a thief own the enemy teams in WvWvW and denying them supply over and over again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv4P-kTBzE0

Now imagine somebody providing that thief stability or thief providing stealth for his ally full bunker guardian. Enemy teams won’t have any supplies. Gg, and another epic fail from Arenanet.

So in other words: this latest patch gave more power to thieves since they have the best access to stealth. So just relax and you can continue to play Thief Wars 2.

The zerg could’ve easily countered that with a stealth trap, it’s easy because these are the first days with the traps. Some people may not even know they exist, and others will just forget they even have them. You’ll see in a few weeks that trying to play that same trick he did won’t work when people realise this.

I had a group use a reveal trap on me while I was solo roaming.

Pretty sad indeed.

Sunflowers.1729:

A lot of stuff, go read it up there ^

Sunflowers, you make a good argument but your not thinking about how the trap can be used. Good for choke points, kinda but any good defense will have a massive amount of AoE in that area so you should be blocking out that one Mesmer. You can blink over the trap so that won’t make a difference considering a Mesmer will blink past the choke to minimize damage.

For veils bombs while your attacking a keep, like you said the 10 supply is more useful else where then the trap. Also you can see the enemy tags, if your grou kitten couting correctly you will know where the veil will come from. And as for open field, well who cares, open field is just fun how ever you look at it and veil makes things interesting.

As for “-Nobody is going to use them on Thieves because it is a complete and utter waste of supply.” That’s not true at all! So far I have only used them on thieves while scouting and roaming. They are quite effective to have placed and used to kite them in the area. Waste of supply because supply has a limited amount is also untrue. If you have a objective with full supply, thats a waste of supply (debatable depending on upgrades for keeps and towers) As for full camps taking 10 supply to lay a trap is not a waste considering the supply will refresh and you gain a tool to help you defend.

TL:DR
I disagree with everything you said based on personal experience.

Edit: I’d like to add about the wasting 15 badges for 2 comment. For some people 15 badges won’t even make a dent. I bought 50 of each trap last night and still have over 10 stacks of them. I know some people much less or much more than I do but for avid WvW’ers, were in no shortage of badges and karma. I see it as using 15 badges for some sneaky tactics and a good laugh.

Zikory.6871:

So far I have only used them on thieves while scouting and roaming. They are quite effective to have placed and used to kite them in the area. Waste of supply because supply has a limited amount is also untrue. If you have a objective with full supply, thats a waste of supply (debatable depending on upgrades for keeps and towers) As for full camps taking 10 supply to lay a trap is not a waste considering the supply will refresh and you gain a tool to help you defend.

Even if it is not a waste of supply, you are still using 15 badges for a chance to possibly get a badge or two from a Thief you may or may not kill. Unless people are really that stupid, in a few weeks the novelty will wear off and nobody will bother using these traps on Thieves

As for Mesmers blinking over the trap, why not just set up two traps, or set them before your wall/gate is destroyed so they don’t know where it is? You can argue that “isn’t this the same for Thieves?” but the fact remains that using this trap on one single person is a waste. When Thieves can set portals then I’ll agree that it is a pretty big nerf to us as well, but until then, no.

Well if you are really have so many badges, go ahead and spam them. You know what works better? Setting up a ballista. It counters everyone and can be used repeatedly.

Sunflowers.1729:

Zikory.6871:

So far I have only used them on thieves while scouting and roaming. They are quite effective to have placed and used to kite them in the area. Waste of supply because supply has a limited amount is also untrue. If you have a objective with full supply, thats a waste of supply (debatable depending on upgrades for keeps and towers) As for full camps taking 10 supply to lay a trap is not a waste considering the supply will refresh and you gain a tool to help you defend.

Even if it is not a waste of supply, you are still using 15 badges for a chance to possibly get a badge or two from a Thief you may or may not kill. Unless people are really that stupid, in a few weeks the novelty will wear off and nobody will bother using these traps on Thieves

And again again, it’s not about the actual cost/application effectiveness of the trap – I’m not a fan of Anet introducing any effect that effectively invalidates an entire traitline, some traits outside that line, multiple utilities, and more for any class. It sets a poor precedent

The trap could have simply pulsed a 3s reveal every second for 10s in the same radius. That would effectively counter cloaked mesmer portal runs and veil rushes without kittening up an SA thieves day. It’s either lazy design or was intended to specifically kitten over a thief.

I think you underestimate how much other people hate thieves in wvw.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sunflowers.1729:

Zikory.6871:

So far I have only used them on thieves while scouting and roaming. They are quite effective to have placed and used to kite them in the area. Waste of supply because supply has a limited amount is also untrue. If you have a objective with full supply, thats a waste of supply (debatable depending on upgrades for keeps and towers) As for full camps taking 10 supply to lay a trap is not a waste considering the supply will refresh and you gain a tool to help you defend.

Even if it is not a waste of supply, you are still using 15 badges for a chance to possibly get a badge or two from a Thief you may or may not kill. Unless people are really that stupid, in a few weeks the novelty will wear off and nobody will bother using these traps on Thieves

And again again, it’s not about the actual cost/application effectiveness of the trap – I’m not a fan of Anet introducing any effect that effectively invalidates an entire traitline, some traits outside that line, multiple utilities, and more for any class. It sets a poor precedent

The trap could have simply pulsed a 3s reveal every second for 10s in the same radius. That would effectively counter cloaked mesmer portal runs and veil rushes without kittening up an SA thieves day. It’s either lazy design or was intended to specifically kitten over a thief.

It is probably lazy design, and most likely will be changed (along with not allowing people to set traps in stealth).

In fact, the high cost suggests to me that it was specifically designed to not be spammable, which would screw Thieves over. If it cost 5 silver to buy a trap then I would agree with what you said, but with the high cost it is unlikely that these traps are aimed at us.

If I were to make an anti-Thief trap it wouldn’t even be a trap. It would be a flare gun that immediately revealed everything in a 1200 radius. That’s anti-Thief.

One word for you.

Mesmers.

Sunflowers.1729:

Zikory.6871:

So far I have only used them on thieves while scouting and roaming. They are quite effective to have placed and used to kite them in the area. Waste of supply because supply has a limited amount is also untrue. If you have a objective with full supply, thats a waste of supply (debatable depending on upgrades for keeps and towers) As for full camps taking 10 supply to lay a trap is not a waste considering the supply will refresh and you gain a tool to help you defend.

Even if it is not a waste of supply, you are still using 15 badges for a chance to possibly get a badge or two from a Thief you may or may not kill. Unless people are really that stupid, in a few weeks the novelty will wear off and nobody will bother using these traps on Thieves

As for Mesmers blinking over the trap, why not just set up two traps, or set them before your wall/gate is destroyed so they don’t know where it is? You can argue that “isn’t this the same for Thieves?” but the fact remains that using this trap on one single person is a waste. When Thieves can set portals then I’ll agree that it is a pretty big nerf to us as well, but until then, no.

Well if you are really have so many badges, go ahead and spam them. You know what works better? Setting up a ballista. It counters everyone and can be used repeatedly.

Your ballista argument is bad. So a ballista works better to take people out of stealth? or are you even able to hit some one in stealth with a ballista?

The cost is a non factor. If you don’t have a ton a badges thats unforchant. There is quite a lot of posts asking for more to do with badges as avid WvW’ers have stocked up quite a bit of them. Here is part of anets response.

You can only set 1 of each trap at a time. So you setting 2 traps won’t work. So its a waste to use the trap on 1 mesmer that is planing a portal bomb?

So your saying that the whole reason that its a nerf to Mesmers is because of portals? Something that has nothing to do with stealth?

I’m sorry that you can only look at this so negatively. Let me know when your done repeating your same argument and ready to listen to other points of view.

LOL. As many have pointed out, this effects Mesmer’s more than thieves as thieves are more of a roaming class and are unlikely to see another individual lay down a trap, nor would they have the time too if you’re any good.

Your portal bomb argument is moot. I can’t blink over it if I don’t know where it is and seeming I rely heavily on stealths to get in to position chances are I may trigger it. The reason why portal bombs are so successful is due to many not paying attention to their surroundings. No lookouts etc.

RandomPlayer: I hate thieves. They are soooo OP because they can stealth !!!!
Thief: Ok, but mesmers can stealth too.
RandomPlayer: Mesmers has just a couple of abilities to gain stealth, thieves disappear every other second
Thief: …
ANet: anti stealth trap…. ahah
RandomPlayer: this effects Mesmer’s more than thieves

….

thiefs are not op because of stealth they are op becuase of the things they gain in stealth

i think the trap is ok as it is right now, it will change the thief a little as they now need to gear for survival instead of pure damage but welcome to where all the othere classes are

I sprung (or got the effects) perhaps 6-7 traps yesterday. Four of them were in forts/settlements.

Perhaps its because of novelty but i was in the distance, making a straight line for a ranger. When he spotted me, he went into crouch position for 3-4 secs so i was like… yeah he put a trap. Fought him a little bit and out of curiosity near the end of the fight i stepped back on it and it was an anti-stealth trap.

Some people do use it for single target as of today. A thief without stealth kill many build survivability and burst potential. Its sad

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

My thoughts exactly. It’s funny how many said “roll a thief and learn how to beat them”. Yet these same people clearly have not played against them in WvW using a necromancer, ranger or engineer.

Now, they can follow their own advice when it comes to countering these traps…Stun/interrupt and anticipate. L2p.

evilapprentice.6379:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

The fact that these thieves needed a “Your spec is invalid for half the fight” is a pretty sad commentary on thieves. Let’s be quite honest here. When going stealth, the player loses the thief as a target. This invalidates half their skills right there. Not having a clue where the thief could be pretty much invalidates the rest.

Deamhan.9538:

evilapprentice.6379:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

The fact that these thieves needed a “Your spec is invalid for half the fight” is a pretty sad commentary on thieves. Let’s be quite honest here. When going stealth, the player loses the thief as a target. This invalidates half their skills right there. Not having a clue where the thief could be pretty much invalidates the rest.

Your inability or unwillingness to learn to counterplay a thief is not the same as invalidation. Your skills still work, you just don’t know how to use them properly.

The fact that thieves still appear to be some mythical menace in WvW, yet in TPvP people have no issue with them is an example of the skill and experience gap between the 2 game types.

Don’t bring everyone down to your level, aspire to rise to theirs.

evilapprentice.6379:

Deamhan.9538:

evilapprentice.6379:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

The fact that these thieves needed a “Your spec is invalid for half the fight” is a pretty sad commentary on thieves. Let’s be quite honest here. When going stealth, the player loses the thief as a target. This invalidates half their skills right there. Not having a clue where the thief could be pretty much invalidates the rest.

Your inability or unwillingness to learn to counterplay a thief is not the same as invalidation. Your skills still work, you just don’t know how to use them properly.

The fact that thieves still appear to be some mythical menace in WvW, yet in TPvP people have no issue with them is an example of the skill and experience gap between the 2 game types.

Don’t bring everyone down to your level, aspire to rise to theirs.

This is probably the 10th time that I’ve said this – do not compare WvW to sPvP (or tPvP).

-Crit damage is capped
-Damage (in general) is less
-Stealth stops point capping. This is enormous
-Running away serves no purpose in sPvP. In WvW it stops a very long walk back and you can go do other things like kill dolyaks. In PvP if you run away then you just lose the point.

It doesn’t have anything to do with the relative ‘skill levels’. If you want to talk about ‘skill levels’ didn’t the recent SOAC tournament conclude with the 5-Thief team winning?

Seriously, stop bringing up this argument. It’s completely un-related. (And by this point I’ve all but given up hope that this forum knows what ‘balance’ is. Seems like Anet does though, somewhat).

Sunflowers.1729:

evilapprentice.6379:

Deamhan.9538:

evilapprentice.6379:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

The fact that these thieves needed a “Your spec is invalid for half the fight” is a pretty sad commentary on thieves. Let’s be quite honest here. When going stealth, the player loses the thief as a target. This invalidates half their skills right there. Not having a clue where the thief could be pretty much invalidates the rest.

Your inability or unwillingness to learn to counterplay a thief is not the same as invalidation. Your skills still work, you just don’t know how to use them properly.

The fact that thieves still appear to be some mythical menace in WvW, yet in TPvP people have no issue with them is an example of the skill and experience gap between the 2 game types.

Don’t bring everyone down to your level, aspire to rise to theirs.

This is probably the 10th time that I’ve said this – do not compare WvW to sPvP (or tPvP).

-Crit damage is capped
-Damage (in general) is less
-Stealth stops point capping. This is enormous

And none of those things have anything to do with knowing how to counterplay thief in a fight.

“Oh noes, the thief went stealth. Whatever shall I Do? I Cannot possibly have any idea where he might be going!”

Well genius, he has a limited amount of time in stealth. Seeing as he has to get behind you for S/X or D/X to gain anything out of stealth, that’s probably where he’s trying to go. If he happened to be running a pistol it’s a little more difficult, but luckily Pistol MH is crap.

In WvW you can have more crit and damage….and more toughness and vitality – the stats you focus on are your choice.

-Running away serves no purpose in sPvP. In WvW it stops a very long walk back and you can go do other things like kill dolyaks. In PvP if you run away then you just lose the point.

Running away might be more advantageous in WvW, but “Serves no purpose in TPvP” is either an outright lie or an indication of your inexperience. Not waiting for respawn and Not giving the opposing team 5 points are important. Let’s also not ignore how non-trivial “Losing the point” is.

You’re right though, we shouldn’t be comparing WvW and TPvP – One is a PvP mode where gear is normalized and fight outcomes are based mostly on experience. The other is a PvE mode that needs I-win buttons to overcome the lack of player experience.

Sunflowers.1729:

evilapprentice.6379:

Deamhan.9538:

evilapprentice.6379:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

The fact that these thieves needed a “Your spec is invalid for half the fight” is a pretty sad commentary on thieves. Let’s be quite honest here. When going stealth, the player loses the thief as a target. This invalidates half their skills right there. Not having a clue where the thief could be pretty much invalidates the rest.

Your inability or unwillingness to learn to counterplay a thief is not the same as invalidation. Your skills still work, you just don’t know how to use them properly.

The fact that thieves still appear to be some mythical menace in WvW, yet in TPvP people have no issue with them is an example of the skill and experience gap between the 2 game types.

Don’t bring everyone down to your level, aspire to rise to theirs.

This is probably the 10th time that I’ve said this – do not compare WvW to sPvP (or tPvP).

-Crit damage is capped
-Damage (in general) is less
-Stealth stops point capping. This is enormous
-Running away serves no purpose in sPvP. In WvW it stops a very long walk back and you can go do other things like kill dolyaks. In PvP if you run away then you just lose the point.

It doesn’t have anything to do with the relative ‘skill levels’. If you want to talk about ‘skill levels’ didn’t the recent SOAC tournament conclude with the 5-Thief team winning?

Seriously, stop bringing up this argument. It’s completely un-related. (And by this point I’ve all but given up hope that this forum knows what ‘balance’ is. Seems like Anet does though, somewhat).

Stealth also stops point capping in www. Which is also enormous btw. In the end WWW is same as Spvp – capping points, just in bigger map with more points to cap and more ppl.

Sunflowers.1729:

The nerf affects Mesmers more than Thieves. Do you think anyone is going to put down a trap just to catch one single Thief? Waste 15 badges for a chance to get 2 badges? Makes no sense.

Conversely, stealth already didn’t do anything in zergs. With all the spells being thrown around nobody cares if you are in stealth or not. Go ahead, press stealth in a large zerg fight. it doesn’t do anything (and you should be shooting from a distance anyway).

Stealth didn’t make any difference in zerg fights so the lack of stealth doesn’t make any difference now.

In 1 week everyone will realize that nothing has changed except veil/portal bombs are much harder to pull off. These traps are expensive enough that they will only be used on large numbers of people, and so it is much more of a nerf to the utility of Mesmers.

So yes, you should reroll a Mesmer. Then be like “ohh so that’s what the nerf was for”.

Edit:
And before the same old argument of “we have more stealth skills than mesmers” pops up, realize that is a completely pointless argument. But eventually, someone is gonna mention it and be like “see we suck”. So read this:

-Traps are expensive and not worth it to use on small numbers of people
-They can only be effectively used for a chokepoint (if anyone tries to circle a supply camp with them, be my guest. It will take more supply than the camp itself has)
-Nobody is going to use them on Thieves because it is a complete and utter waste of supply. It doesn’t matter how many badges or how much karma you have. Your server has a limited amount of supply.
-They are only good for
1) Stopping veil bombs
2) Stopping an invisible Mesmer from portaling the entire zerg in.

It doesn’t have anything to do with how many stealth skills this class has because nobody is going to use it on one Thief. Do people build arrow carts in fields to counter random roamers? Didn’t think so. Arrow carts (like these traps) are only used at strategic locations and not everywhere people feel like fighting.

Stop with all the complaints already – if anything, Mesmers should be left wondering why Anet keeps nerfing their utility.

TLDR:
-Nobody is going to use it on random roaming Thieves
-It will only be used in zerg fights and at choke points.
-Stealth doesn’t even do anything in large fights – before the patch did you see Thieves run straight into the enemy zerg while stealthed?
-Stop complaining about this already. Mesmers had a 50% confusion nerf and now this, and you don’t see them complaining as much.

And if they do use it on a random Thief, they just wasted 10 supply and 15 badges for one kill. So when you step on that trap, you’ve denied them 1/3 of an arrow cart.

Lets look at your points:
1) Stealth did nothing in zergs… and yet it was because of stealth in zergs that most people complained about perma-stealth… which, btw was due to culling not the actual skill.
2) So according to you, because the traps are expensive, no one will use them on a single target… and yet in the same breath, they will use them on mesmers to stop them from veil portaling zergs in… The difference here is, the traps would not be used on a single person, even if a thief… you see, if an ally sets them off, the thief loses stealth for 30 seconds. this means no Back Stab, no Cloak and Dagger, no Refuge, no hide in shadows, loss of init regen due to traits, loss of healing in stealth due to traits, loss of crits due to traits in stealth, in short… a loss of NUMEROUS trait and weapon skills which set the class down below its performance ability… not the loss of a SINGLE ability.

Both trap types are everywhere, the supply trap being the reason WvW is currently dead…

Stealth traps where a bad idea. It displays a lack of creativity on the producer’s part and laziness. But this is not the point. The point is stealth traps should be removed and thieves should be fixed in more targeted ways so less builds are destroyed.

Indeed they should nerf the perma stealth abuse instead then trying to put a trap for a 2 classes. Getting tired of most thief’s thinking they so tough but run away when only 20% of their health is dropped, frigging cowards.

i agree with jeroen’s comment…. i also find stealth spamming to be the problem … Instead of “reveal” debuff they should implement WVW tracking ability, so only the player who is tracking can see invisible units for a period of time (this would allow thief to keep thier backstab mechanics and 50% speed trait etc… while targeting stealth spammers)

A lot said the ranger should have an option too see stealth with a skill since they do need some love. But overall a thief should not be able to chain stealth, just now fighting a thief who is 75% in stealth in a 3-5 min fight. This is not being out played because a frigging 8 year old can chain stealth abilities.

Most thief players come with there poor excuse of “stealth is our only survival” well guess what that’s block and immunity for other classes but hey we can’t spam them where we can use them 75% in a fight. I hope one day Anet would just listen better and don’t come with silly solutions like a trap mostly specific used just for one class, that’s just poor game design and I know Anet can do better.

JeroenXP.5364:

A lot said the ranger should have an option too see stealth with a skill since they do need some love. But overall a thief should not be able to chain stealth, just now fighting a thief who is 75% in stealth in a 3-5 min fight. This is not being out played because a frigging 8 year old can chain stealth abilities.

Most thief players come with there poor excuse of “stealth is our only survival” well guess what that’s block and immunity for other classes but hey we can’t spam them where we can use them 75% in a fight. I hope one day Anet would just listen better and don’t come with silly solutions like a trap mostly specific used just for one class, that’s just poor game design and I know Anet can do better.

Hey guess what, Immunity is just that – absolute immunity from all attacks for a set amount of time. Block is the same (though there are a handful of abilities that hit through block, they are a very small % of overall attacks). Stealth on the other hand offer 0% damage mitigation. 0% damage mitigation. You cannot compare the 2 as if they were the same because they don’t do the same things.

evilapprentice.6379:

JeroenXP.5364:

A lot said the ranger should have an option too see stealth with a skill since they do need some love. But overall a thief should not be able to chain stealth, just now fighting a thief who is 75% in stealth in a 3-5 min fight. This is not being out played because a frigging 8 year old can chain stealth abilities.

Most thief players come with there poor excuse of “stealth is our only survival” well guess what that’s block and immunity for other classes but hey we can’t spam them where we can use them 75% in a fight. I hope one day Anet would just listen better and don’t come with silly solutions like a trap mostly specific used just for one class, that’s just poor game design and I know Anet can do better.

Hey guess what, Immunity is just that – absolute immunity from all attacks for a set amount of time. Block is the same (though there are a handful of abilities that hit through block, they are a very small % of overall attacks). Stealth on the other hand offer 0% damage mitigation. 0% damage mitigation. You cannot compare the 2 as if they were the same because they don’t do the same things.

Maybe he is a sb/lb ranger? He then can’t kill what he can’t target (unless the thief is dumb enough to stand in the big red circle 4-5x without healing). Stealth is just as effective damage mitigation as block. Stealth also allows me to reposition for an advantage. Now I am not against stealth because I play every class at max lvl but you can’t deny that stealth is the most effective defensive tool in the game right now. As long as the thief or mesmer isn’t dumb enough to stand in aoe.

This is all based on wvw since spvp/tpvp make stealth a lot less useful and a lot easier to counter.

YourOwnFear.2743:

evilapprentice.6379:

JeroenXP.5364:

A lot said the ranger should have an option too see stealth with a skill since they do need some love. But overall a thief should not be able to chain stealth, just now fighting a thief who is 75% in stealth in a 3-5 min fight. This is not being out played because a frigging 8 year old can chain stealth abilities.

Most thief players come with there poor excuse of “stealth is our only survival” well guess what that’s block and immunity for other classes but hey we can’t spam them where we can use them 75% in a fight. I hope one day Anet would just listen better and don’t come with silly solutions like a trap mostly specific used just for one class, that’s just poor game design and I know Anet can do better.

Hey guess what, Immunity is just that – absolute immunity from all attacks for a set amount of time. Block is the same (though there are a handful of abilities that hit through block, they are a very small % of overall attacks). Stealth on the other hand offer 0% damage mitigation. 0% damage mitigation. You cannot compare the 2 as if they were the same because they don’t do the same things.

Maybe he is a sb/lb ranger? He then can’t kill what he can’t target (unless the thief is dumb enough to stand in the big red circle 4-5x without healing). Stealth is just as effective damage mitigation as block. Stealth also allows me to reposition for an advantage. Now I am not against stealth because I play every class at max lvl but you can’t deny that stealth is the most effective defensive tool in the game right now. As long as the thief or mesmer isn’t dumb enough to stand in aoe.

This is all based on wvw since spvp/tpvp make stealth a lot less useful and a lot easier to counter.

Well than that’s the fault of his choices, isn’t it? No one forced him to go Lb/Sb. That would be like be complaining if a backstab thief 3 shot me because I run around with base toughness and 14k HP. I chose to be that glassy fully knowing that a D/D GC thief might 3 shot me.

If you haven’t learned to roughly guess where a thief might be based on his MH weapon, you aren’t trying. Hint, if he has a dagger or sword in his MH and stealths, he’s probably trying to get behind you. You can use that information to severely neuter how effective stealth is as an offensive tool, AND if you happen to not be running Lb/Sb, you can reduce the defensive abilities of stealth with this knowledge as well.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sunflowers.1729:

evilapprentice.6379:

Deamhan.9538:

evilapprentice.6379:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Look at all this whining. I guess all the glass cannon power thieves and permainvis thieves are going to finally be afraid of something, just like other players have been afraid of them since launch day.

The fact that those players need a “Your spec is invalid for 30s” button to win is a pretty sad commentary on WvW.

The fact that these thieves needed a “Your spec is invalid for half the fight” is a pretty sad commentary on thieves. Let’s be quite honest here. When going stealth, the player loses the thief as a target. This invalidates half their skills right there. Not having a clue where the thief could be pretty much invalidates the rest.

Your inability or unwillingness to learn to counterplay a thief is not the same as invalidation. Your skills still work, you just don’t know how to use them properly.

The fact that thieves still appear to be some mythical menace in WvW, yet in TPvP people have no issue with them is an example of the skill and experience gap between the 2 game types.

Don’t bring everyone down to your level, aspire to rise to theirs.

This is probably the 10th time that I’ve said this – do not compare WvW to sPvP (or tPvP).

-Crit damage is capped
-Damage (in general) is less
-Stealth stops point capping. This is enormous

And none of those things have anything to do with knowing how to counterplay thief in a fight.

“Oh noes, the thief went stealth. Whatever shall I Do? I Cannot possibly have any idea where he might be going!”

Well genius, he has a limited amount of time in stealth. Seeing as he has to get behind you for S/X or D/X to gain anything out of stealth, that’s probably where he’s trying to go. If he happened to be running a pistol it’s a little more difficult, but luckily Pistol MH is crap.

In WvW you can have more crit and damage….and more toughness and vitality – the stats you focus on are your choice.

-Running away serves no purpose in sPvP. In WvW it stops a very long walk back and you can go do other things like kill dolyaks. In PvP if you run away then you just lose the point.

Running away might be more advantageous in WvW, but “Serves no purpose in TPvP” is either an outright lie or an indication of your inexperience. Not waiting for respawn and Not giving the opposing team 5 points are important. Let’s also not ignore how non-trivial “Losing the point” is.

You’re right though, we shouldn’t be comparing WvW and TPvP – One is a PvP mode where gear is normalized and fight outcomes are based mostly on experience. The other is a PvE mode that needs I-win buttons to overcome the lack of player experience.

Thief goes invisible, any target dependant skills (and associated traits) become useless (sounds kinda familiar). D/p #5/#2 combo? Well, they don’t have to use HS to leap back into BP AoE. They get the stealth leap finisher by leaping out of the AoE (something that ANet should change, requiring the player to land their leap finisher within the combo field to get the combo). Anyway, placing AoE on the BP AoE is a waste. That just leaves SR. Unless you are a condition necro with a staff and spec’ed for increased mark size, or there are a couple of you vs that one thief (which is a problem within itself), you will not lay down enough AoE in the 4 seconds SR lasts. Those you do place, will not do enough damage between the regen and removal. Too few professions have AoE fear or Aoe knockback.

They are going to my back? Sure but again, there is nothing I can place on the ground that will do enough in the short time they are there before they vanish again. Don’t just stand there? Yeah, they have too many gap closers that don’t cause reveal, plus they have the fastest movement speed @ 50% while in stealth.

All the “counters” that have been given are nothing more than strawman arguments.

Also

There are some rather significant differences between spvp/tpvp and WvW.

evilapprentice.6379:

YourOwnFear.2743:

evilapprentice.6379:

JeroenXP.5364:

A lot said the ranger should have an option too see stealth with a skill since they do need some love. But overall a thief should not be able to chain stealth, just now fighting a thief who is 75% in stealth in a 3-5 min fight. This is not being out played because a frigging 8 year old can chain stealth abilities.

Most thief players come with there poor excuse of “stealth is our only survival” well guess what that’s block and immunity for other classes but hey we can’t spam them where we can use them 75% in a fight. I hope one day Anet would just listen better and don’t come with silly solutions like a trap mostly specific used just for one class, that’s just poor game design and I know Anet can do better.

Hey guess what, Immunity is just that – absolute immunity from all attacks for a set amount of time. Block is the same (though there are a handful of abilities that hit through block, they are a very small % of overall attacks). Stealth on the other hand offer 0% damage mitigation. 0% damage mitigation. You cannot compare the 2 as if they were the same because they don’t do the same things.

Maybe he is a sb/lb ranger? He then can’t kill what he can’t target (unless the thief is dumb enough to stand in the big red circle 4-5x without healing). Stealth is just as effective damage mitigation as block. Stealth also allows me to reposition for an advantage. Now I am not against stealth because I play every class at max lvl but you can’t deny that stealth is the most effective defensive tool in the game right now. As long as the thief or mesmer isn’t dumb enough to stand in aoe.

This is all based on wvw since spvp/tpvp make stealth a lot less useful and a lot easier to counter.

Well than that’s the fault of his choices, isn’t it? No one forced him to go Lb/Sb. That would be like be complaining if a backstab thief 3 shot me because I run around with base toughness and 14k HP. I chose to be that glassy fully knowing that a D/D GC thief might 3 shot me.

If you haven’t learned to roughly guess where a thief might be based on his MH weapon, you aren’t trying. Hint, if he has a dagger or sword in his MH and stealths, he’s probably trying to get behind you. You can use that information to severely neuter how effective stealth is as an offensive tool, AND if you happen to not be running Lb/Sb, you can reduce the defensive abilities of stealth with this knowledge as well.

That was all a preface to my point. Which is stealth is the strongest defensive ability in wvw. If you are only using it to attack then you won’t get what I am saying. That guy’s point was that stealth can be used constantly where immunities and blocks can’t. Does stealth stop damage? No it doesn’t but it does allow a smart player to stop almost all damage to him indefinitely with the right spec and smart play. I myself run S/P and D/P. With that setup I don’t die unless someone bursts me down instantly. I can stealth and stay in the area, chipping away at my target, coming out to burst him down when I get my advantage back. While in stealth he only knows generally where I am when I drop my smoke field. Even if he lays down some aoe I barely take damage if any because I am not dumb enough to stay in it. If he is wildly turning around to swing I move to another area and dodge roll in to attack when I want. Its the easiest thing in the world to do and the hardest to counter (if the thief isn’t brain dead). To top it all off, at anytime I want I can leave and there is nothing you can do about it because you can’t see me.

I am not saying this is op or super powerful offensively. I am simply agreeing with him by saying that stealth is the best defensive ability in wvw/pve for anyone who can use it to its full potential.

On topic I don’t agree with adding a stealth trap since there aren’t traps that counter everyone elses defensive abilities. I don’t think its as game changing as everyone makes it out to be though because for the average player its not cheap. I just don’t like the idea that something was put in to specifically target 2 classes utility.

Two things I want to touch on really quick.

As a WvW roamer, regardless of what class I play, I will always (YES ALWAYS) have a giant stack of these in my bag and I will use one EVERY time I come across a thief that is not leveld-up. Every time. Period. The cost is negated by the fact that I have an excess of the currencies required and nothing to spend them on.

The 2nd thing I wanted to touch on is a question I had about these traps. So, as a thief, I trigger one and my class mechanic is taken away for 30 seconds. Oh boy. That sounds painful!

-So, when a Ranger triggers one, his pet goes away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when a Mesmer triggers one, his ability to summon clones and phantasms goes away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when a Warrior triggers one, his burst skills go away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when an Elementalist triggers one, his attunement swapping goes away for 30 seconds, right?

You get the drift…..

ski.4927:

Two things I want to touch on really quick.

As a WvW roamer, regardless of what class I play, I will always (YES ALWAYS) have a giant stack of these in my bag and I will use one EVERY time I come across a thief that is not leveld-up. Every time. Period. The cost is negated by the fact that I have an excess of the currencies required and nothing to spend them on.

The 2nd thing I wanted to touch on is a question I had about these traps. So, as a thief, I trigger one and my class mechanic is taken away for 30 seconds. Oh boy. That sounds painful!

-So, when a Ranger triggers one, his pet goes away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when a Mesmer triggers one, his ability to summon clones and phantasms goes away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when a Warrior triggers one, his burst skills go away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when an Elementalist triggers one, his attunement swapping goes away for 30 seconds, right?

You get the drift…..

i think they wanted to kill the wvw thieves with these traps, maybe they succeeded ?

DanH.5879:

ski.4927:

Two things I want to touch on really quick.

As a WvW roamer, regardless of what class I play, I will always (YES ALWAYS) have a giant stack of these in my bag and I will use one EVERY time I come across a thief that is not leveld-up. Every time. Period. The cost is negated by the fact that I have an excess of the currencies required and nothing to spend them on.

The 2nd thing I wanted to touch on is a question I had about these traps. So, as a thief, I trigger one and my class mechanic is taken away for 30 seconds. Oh boy. That sounds painful!

-So, when a Ranger triggers one, his pet goes away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when a Mesmer triggers one, his ability to summon clones and phantasms goes away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when a Warrior triggers one, his burst skills go away for 30 seconds, right?
-So, when an Elementalist triggers one, his attunement swapping goes away for 30 seconds, right?

You get the drift…..

i think they wanted to kill the wvw thieves with these traps, maybe they succeeded ?

Yes, Yes they did…

All thieves talking like d/p in WvWvW are not a problems,…are completely out of touch with reality, most of you have really found a safe heaven in this game with the worst implementation of the stealth mechanic , ever seen in a videogame so far.

A d/p thief use the same tactic over and over again to go stealth-backstab-stealth-backstab…..with no way for you to counter it , you can just aoe randomly hoping to hit the thief.

The ‘best’ answer given from thieves players so far: ’ just spam aoe in the last spot they were’….-_-, yeah the stealth mechanic in this game is completely broken and hopefully this new trap will give a fighting chance against the so many thieves out there who think to possess real skill..time to learn to dodge my dear thieves!

Arheundel.6451:

The ‘best’ answer given from thieves players so far: ’ just spam aoe in the last spot they were’….-_-, yeah the stealth mechanic in this game is completely broken and hopefully this new trap will give a fighting chance against the so many thieves out there who think to possess real skill..time to learn to dodge my dear thieves!

Well no kitten, Stealth is a defensive mechanic too did you know that? Stealth is supposed to help the thief prevent damage, and their easy access to it is met with a comparatively low health pool.

To be honest, spam aoe is the wrong answer unless you are sure you will hit him. Spam autoattack is the right answer. Don’t blow cooldowns on something you might not hit.

Also, l2notgethitinthebackwithbackstab

Teamkiller.4315:

Arheundel.6451:

The ‘best’ answer given from thieves players so far: ’ just spam aoe in the last spot they were’….-_-, yeah the stealth mechanic in this game is completely broken and hopefully this new trap will give a fighting chance against the so many thieves out there who think to possess real skill..time to learn to dodge my dear thieves!

Well no kitten, Stealth is a defensive mechanic too did you know that? Stealth is supposed to help the thief prevent damage, and their easy access to it is met with a comparatively low health pool.

To be honest, spam aoe is the wrong answer unless you are sure you will hit him. Spam autoattack is the right answer. Don’t blow cooldowns on something you might not hit.

Also, l2notgethitinthebackwithbackstab

Preventing dmg shouldn’t be an unlimited use tool!
If you make a mistake you should pay for it, no go stealth , rinse and repeat like d/p do…plus..spamming autoattacks?..At what should I spam auto-attack if I need a target to hit are you kidding me?

Then l2notgethitetctetctetc? really?I can dodge only twice and then I need to wait 10s while the d/p thief can spam black powder and HS all day long