Guild Wars 2

YojimboJones.6243:

I would like to see something implemented like the “resilience” stat on pvp gear in world of warcraft.

and that’s where you screwed up. this game isn’t WoW. PvP specific stats are a horrible idea, and whoever came up with them should be slapped in the face. they factor skill out of the equation, and make it all about who stacks the highest PvP stat.

if you want WoW-like PvP stats, go play WoW. or go play SWTOR (WoW in SPAAAAAAAAACE).

I myself won’t mind a spike damage nerf of the Thieves, but it has to be done in the right way. I’m not big on wanting to nerf a class I love, but last night I felt first hand how it feels to be semi-helpless against a high burst Thief. The problem I had wasn’t Backstab, it’s was Heartseeker. After this Thief decided to jump me when I was already at 50% life from fighting another Thief, what hit me the hardest was Heartseeker. I looked in my combat log after I pretty much just fell over in less than a second, and one of her Heartseekers did almost 10k to me (9,121). That is a just a BIT extreme for something that is 3 Initiative and spammable. For me, the ONLY hit a Thief should have that does that much damage is Backstab. I’d take getting hit for 12,000 damage from a Backstab because it has requirements (be behind them and in stealth with the signet boost’s extra 15% damage and full glass cannon build).

But Heartseeker should never hit for more than a backstab, ever, no matter how glitched to hell the skills are. Max hit for a normal, low cost, spammable move should be in the 3k range at MAX critical hit damage. If they drop Heartseeker to a move that does good damage but not OMFG damage once you hit half health, and move that damage to Backstab, I think that would help in a big way to balancing things out for the Thief without nerfing any of the other Thief builds.

Setima.8741:

I myself won’t mind a spike damage nerf of the Thieves, but it has to be done in the right way. I’m not big on wanting to nerf a class I love, but last night I felt first hand how it feels to be semi-helpless against a high burst Thief. The problem I had wasn’t Backstab, it’s was Heartseeker. After this Thief decided to jump me when I was already at 50% life from fighting another Thief, what hit me the hardest was Heartseeker. I looked in my combat log after I pretty much just fell over in less than a second, and one of her Heartseekers did almost 10k to me (9,121). That is a just a BIT extreme for something that is 3 Initiative and spammable. For me, the ONLY hit a Thief should have that does that much damage is Backstab. I’d take getting hit for 12,000 damage from a Backstab because it has requirements (be behind them and in stealth with the signet boost’s extra 15% damage and full glass cannon build).

But Heartseeker should never hit for more than a backstab, ever, no matter how glitched to hell the skills are. Max hit for a normal, low cost, spammable move should be in the 3k range at MAX critical hit damage. If they drop Heartseeker to a move that does good damage but not OMFG damage once you hit half health, and move that damage to Backstab, I think that would help in a big way to balancing things out for the Thief without nerfing any of the other Thief builds.

That BIG Heartseeker was surely after you reached the 25% HP, and I think that is the situation for which the Thief is built intentionally (he´s closest to an assasin/murderer after all), to bring the low HP target dow quickly…

I don’t really care if I was at 100% or 5%, as I said, a spammable, low cost, gap closing hit should never hit that hard ever, for any reason. Backstab should hit very hard, and nothing else. Your goal with Heartseeker is to hit with a decent hit, something about double auto attack. I mean what else hits that hard with D/D? LDB does crap damage but bleeds, Dancing Dagger is low damage but cripples, CnD can hit pretty hard, usually 4~6k depending on the critical hit.

But Heartseeker, if it’s going to have all the movement speed it does, the low cost it does, the gap closing usage it does, it should not be hitting harder at any point than a skill such as Backstab which has a stealth requirement, a position requirement AND a Signet requirement to hit somebody for big damage.

That is part of the big problem. It’d be like having a Warrior’s Whirlwind hit you for more damage than 100B when 100B takes a lot more to set up (usually Bull’s Charge+Frenzy+Signet of Rage to maximize it’s damage.

Setima.8741:

I don’t really care if I was at 100% or 5%, as I said, a spammable, low cost, gap closing hit should never hit that hard ever, for any reason. Backstab should hit very hard, and nothing else. Your goal with Heartseeker is to hit with a decent hit, something about double auto attack. I mean what else hits that hard with D/D? LDB does crap damage but bleeds, Dancing Dagger is low damage but cripples, CnD can hit pretty hard, usually 4~6k depending on the critical hit.

But Heartseeker, if it’s going to have all the movement speed it does, the low cost it does, the gap closing usage it does, it should not be hitting harder at any point than a skill such as Backstab which has a stealth requirement, a position requirement AND a Signet requirement to hit somebody for big damage.

That is part of the big problem. It’d be like having a Warrior’s Whirlwind hit you for more damage than 100B when 100B takes a lot more to set up (usually Bull’s Charge+Frenzy+Signet of Rage to maximize it’s damage.

Actually warrior GS whirlwind moves you just as far if not farther AND does more damage, and you get to choose any direction of movement without needing a target/facing.

So when the update come?

Maybe if weakness reduced crit chance… hmm

Setima.8741:

I don’t really care if I was at 100% or 5%, as I said, a spammable, low cost, gap closing hit should never hit that hard ever, for any reason. Backstab should hit very hard, and nothing else. Your goal with Heartseeker is to hit with a decent hit, something about double auto attack. I mean what else hits that hard with D/D? LDB does crap damage but bleeds, Dancing Dagger is low damage but cripples, CnD can hit pretty hard, usually 4~6k depending on the critical hit.

But Heartseeker, if it’s going to have all the movement speed it does, the low cost it does, the gap closing usage it does, it should not be hitting harder at any point than a skill such as Backstab which has a stealth requirement, a position requirement AND a Signet requirement to hit somebody for big damage.

That is part of the big problem. It’d be like having a Warrior’s Whirlwind hit you for more damage than 100B when 100B takes a lot more to set up (usually Bull’s Charge+Frenzy+Signet of Rage to maximize it’s damage.

It never does. Heartseeker will never hit harder than Backstab. It doesn’t even come close.

Seriously, this whole post is a joke. Backstab should be our only source of damage, are you kidding me?

THIS is why people can’t take complaints seriously. You want a thief to be completely nerfed – everything – just so you can be lazy and not have to worry about being killed by the assassin class.

At least learn about the class before you complain about it.

John: I wasn’t comparing how far Whirlwind moves anybody or the damage a Whirlwind versus Heartseeker does. The point was as if Whirlwind would be doing more damage than 100B as a comparison to how screwed up the damage on Heartseeker versus Backstab was. I’ve never had Whirlwind come close to hitting 15k so that’s based on me using my own Warrior.

Krathalos: Last night as I posted, I got hit by a Heartseeker for 9100 damage. The same Thief’s backstab previous to that hit was 6512. If I was more on the ball I would have screenshotted it, but I wasn’t really coming here to argue with people on a forum.

I play a Thief, I love my Thief, it’s the only reason I play the kitten game. But Heartseeker can and will hit you harder than a Backstab which is completely stupid. Halve the damage on Heartseeker and give that half to Backstab so that 1 button spamming morons don’t get to kill me, but players who know how to set up a good Backstab can. It’s the same situation as I said as a Warrior having to work to set up a perfect frenzy+100B. If I get caught in it because he mind gamed me into falling for it, then I die, he wins. Spike damage I’m fine with, but not spike damage on easy to abuse mechanics. Tracer Missle?! Yup.

Fritz.5026:

the things that pass for logic on this forum are always amazing.

do you honestly think the thief class would be so popular if it wasn’t so powerful?

personally i hope the patch moves the class towards a more balanced position. low risk + high reward is obviously broken which is why the class is so popular.

edit – also comparisons to warriors are always so genuine because warriors can turn invisible to avoid retaliation and teleport across the map when things are not going their way.

Any class that plays on the inadequacy of other players will always be very popular. Fact of the matter is if a skilled thief runs into an equally skilled guardian or warrior, the thief will lose almost every time.

If you don’t believe that, head over to either of those forums and ask how often skilled players get rocked by thieves in sPvP. You will get a lot of people saying it happens often and you will see a few of the skilled players saying it never happens and explaining why.

Just because people who think they are good at this game get owned by a class that is made to exploit surprise and lack of game theory/knowledge doesn’t mean the class is actually as good as it looks. Once you know what a thief is doing and how a thief plays, you start to understand how to deal with them. Not that it’s easy for most classes, I hope it’s never easy for most classes, but I’ve had guardians handle me as if I were a newborn kitten attacking their leg.

If a thief runs into a power-PvPer guardian, it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that he will die.

ps – I’m serious. If you really don’t believe me, go ask them. They will teach you all you need to know if you only just ask.

Setima.8741:

John: I wasn’t comparing how far Whirlwind moves anybody or the damage a Whirlwind versus Heartseeker does. The point was as if Whirlwind would be doing more damage than 100B as a comparison to how screwed up the damage on Heartseeker versus Backstab was. I’ve never had Whirlwind come close to hitting 15k so that’s based on me using my own Warrior.

Krathalos: Last night as I posted, I got hit by a Heartseeker for 9100 damage. The same Thief’s backstab previous to that hit was 6512. If I was more on the ball I would have screenshotted it, but I wasn’t really coming here to argue with people on a forum.

I play a Thief, I love my Thief, it’s the only reason I play the kitten game. But Heartseeker can and will hit you harder than a Backstab which is completely stupid. Halve the damage on Heartseeker and give that half to Backstab so that 1 button spamming morons don’t get to kill me, but players who know how to set up a good Backstab can. It’s the same situation as I said as a Warrior having to work to set up a perfect frenzy+100B. If I get caught in it because he mind gamed me into falling for it, then I die, he wins. Spike damage I’m fine with, but not spike damage on easy to abuse mechanics. Tracer Missle?! Yup.

Then that Backstab was from the front. At 25% HP, Heartseeker has 100 less BASE damage. On my glass cannon build thief, Heartseeker has roughly 500 less damage (1600 vs. 2100 Backstab).

You will NEVER get hit harder by Heartseeker than you would by a correctly positioned Backstab, assuming both crit.

Also, 9100 damage from Heartseeker would put you at like, super glass cannon.

Unless the game decided to lump 2-3 HS together and combined the damage (as has happened before). Or John didn’t notice how many times he was hit by HS. I have NEVER seen a 9k HS. I have seen quite a few 6-7k HS at the lowest health threshold though.

Here’s my predictions, now maybe some of these won’t make it and amounts might not be exact but the general idea seems like it’s in the works whether it’s this patch or the next:

Dagger offhand ability damage reduced significantly due to their considerable utility value and above intended thief burst damage. This brings them in line with their off hand pistol counterparts.
Backstab damage reduced by 20%, damage capped at 8000 damage.
Mug major trait no longer applies direct damage, it now applies 3 stacks of bleeding (9s duration) to the target.
Cluster Bomb damage reduced significantly to account for versatile utility of skill as blast finisher.
Unload damage reduced by 15%. Instead Unload now applies 3 stacks of vulnerability per use.

Thief: We autoattack now

Rayya.2591:

So when the update come?

Wasn’t it supposed to be applied today?

No I’m not a super glass cannon at all. I’m Wild Bill speced and have almost 23k health which is why I made it a point to look and see just how I went from having 15k health to dead in two hits, something that Backstab Thieves generally never come close to doing to me. It’s possible it rolled the damage into one, but what I saw and what happened is what it is. The numbers don’t lie to me. I’ve done the Backstab Thief thing and it’s easy as balls to play and a bit cheesy for me. I still don’t see why Heartseeker needs to have a damage range or be spammable to begin with. Maybe raise the cost to 5 so at most you’ll get hit with two if you’re locked down or they guessed wrong when hitting you with it and didn’t get all that yummy damage.

I mean though, nothing comes close to hitting that hard for so little cost. It has a lot of positives: range, gap closer, tons of damage, fast, low cost. I only wish my Body Shot could hit for 5~7k when somebody was low health. Cluster Bomb too. Shadow Strike? Even combining both hits of the move doesn’t come close to Heartseeker. Seems out of whack to me. I’d rather Heartseeker be a gap closer, snare breaker, low damage move than something you spam for 5k+ hits over and over. It’s not like you can sit there and eat more than two of them either. If we all had 50k health, then sure, I can see it being a decent sized hit, but since 25% is usually about 4 or 5k left at most, that’s a 1 shot and a good Thief has 5 or 6 ready to spam you with. You’re going to get hit and die. Feels wrong to me. /shrug

they already said what they were going to do….thieves will have less burst…but will have higher sustained damage to compensate

Fritz.5026:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Fritz.5026:

the things that pass for logic on this forum are always amazing.

do you honestly think the thief class would be so popular if it wasn’t so powerful?

personally i hope the patch moves the class towards a more balanced position. low risk + high reward is obviously broken which is why the class is so popular.

edit – also comparisons to warriors are always so genuine because warriors can turn invisible to avoid retaliation and teleport across the map when things are not going their way.

In TF2, you’ll see a large number of spies, and snipers on a 12 man team when you go into random pubs. Usually 3 or more of each.

In reality, a well put together team of 12 players would have one sniper in most situations, and have one spy who goes on and off.

People rarely care about what’s really effective. They play what they feel is “cool”, or “leet”.

in competitive games people always gravitate towards the most powerful classes available.

its really just simple logic. people want to win. the powerful class increases their odds.

this is not rocket science.

Riddle me this: Why do you see no or almost no backstab burst thieves in tPvP?

bwillb.2165:

Fritz.5026:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Fritz.5026:

the things that pass for logic on this forum are always amazing.

do you honestly think the thief class would be so popular if it wasn’t so powerful?

personally i hope the patch moves the class towards a more balanced position. low risk + high reward is obviously broken which is why the class is so popular.

edit – also comparisons to warriors are always so genuine because warriors can turn invisible to avoid retaliation and teleport across the map when things are not going their way.

In TF2, you’ll see a large number of spies, and snipers on a 12 man team when you go into random pubs. Usually 3 or more of each.

In reality, a well put together team of 12 players would have one sniper in most situations, and have one spy who goes on and off.

People rarely care about what’s really effective. They play what they feel is “cool”, or “leet”.

in competitive games people always gravitate towards the most powerful classes available.

its really just simple logic. people want to win. the powerful class increases their odds.

this is not rocket science.

Riddle me this: Why do you see no or almost no backstab burst thieves in tPvP?

That one is easy, because they are all playing mesmers, but in all seriousness… the amount of Mesmers in the final battle kyhlo is too kitten high, its not uncommon for me to see teams utilizing 3 mesmers on that map

bwillb.2165:

Fritz.5026:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Fritz.5026:

the things that pass for logic on this forum are always amazing.

do you honestly think the thief class would be so popular if it wasn’t so powerful?

personally i hope the patch moves the class towards a more balanced position. low risk + high reward is obviously broken which is why the class is so popular.

edit – also comparisons to warriors are always so genuine because warriors can turn invisible to avoid retaliation and teleport across the map when things are not going their way.

In TF2, you’ll see a large number of spies, and snipers on a 12 man team when you go into random pubs. Usually 3 or more of each.

In reality, a well put together team of 12 players would have one sniper in most situations, and have one spy who goes on and off.

People rarely care about what’s really effective. They play what they feel is “cool”, or “leet”.

in competitive games people always gravitate towards the most powerful classes available.

its really just simple logic. people want to win. the powerful class increases their odds.

this is not rocket science.

Riddle me this: Why do you see no or almost no backstab burst thieves in tPvP?

Because bunker builds are far better at accomplishing the goals of the conquest gamemode, holding capture points. A bunker is supposed to, hopefully, survive until assistance can kill the enemies. Even if a bunker dies they still keep enemies from capping for far longer than other builds.

A thief restricted to sitting on a point will die because they are a class that depends on mobility. Staying stealthed on a capture point also doesn’t keep it from capping. So the best role a thief can do in SPvP is roaming. Then there is group synergy, the thief has very little in a bs build. So most will run other classes with more group synergy.

Katsumoto.9452:

Lordryux.9785:

is C&D really do that much damage ? ive never seen it do damage enough to nerf its current damage at all. and its not just backstab players now are QQing about our stealths those should be nerfed and P/D builds should be nerfed too apparently if thats the case just remove thief from the game.

Heard QQ about DD condition, DD backstab, SP pistol whip (still), P/D condition…. about the only thing I don’t hear complaints about is sword/dagger. It’s utterly ridiculous, and it’s because people don’t understand the fundamental mechanics of a thief. I read earlier somewhat saying shortbow 5 (the shadowstep shot) is ‘spammable’. No… it really isn’t.

You took the words right out of my mouth. A good portion of the crying on these forums are so ridiculous to those of us that actually play this class that it’s funny now to read them. I’ll say what I’ve been saying, Anet can’t cure stupid.

That said, my prediction is a 20% damage reduction to the backstab, removal of the trait that extends our stealth by 1 second, and whatever things they change that are not posted in the notes, which is usually the worst of it.

Haha, I called the dancing dagger and cloak and dagger nerfs, along with the cluster bomb nerf.

We’re literally at a point where autoattack is our main source of damage in most of our weapon sets now.

Sword/Dagger = Autoattack
Sword/Pistol = Autoattack
Dagger/Dagger or Dagger/Pistol= Waiting on backstab nerf, but i’ll soon be autoattack unless you’re condition build, or until you get under 25% and heartseeker is good.
Pistol/Dagger = Autoattack/Stealth attack
Shortbow = Autoattack

What’s left? well pistol/pistol still has more damage on unload than autoattack.

We’re being nerfed into autoattacking.