Time to change Shadow Refuge?

Time to change Shadow Refuge?

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Posted by: Gilburt.9146

Gilburt.9146

[Please note: this is from the perspective of a WvW Roamer who usually plays either Guardian or Thief. Also, for the purpose of saving time here, I’m just going to assume Dagger-mainhand for the hypothetical thief I refer to.]

TL;DR Version: Shadow Refuge should be based around giving thieves more sustainability in a fight instead of being a means to simply reset a fight. (Skip to the boldface text below.)

In it’s current state, Shadow Refuge is an extremely boring skill to play against. There is not much counter-play for it (except for a select few skills that can knock an enemy out of it). When traited, Thieves only need to stand in it for 4 seconds, and then they are free to do whatever they want with 16 seconds of stealth. That is a huge amount of stealth for very little “cost” (i.e. using only 1 skill with a 60s cooldown and standing in a relatively large area for only 4 seconds). And even if you damage them a lot while they’re in the Refuge, so what? They still have 16s of stealth and there’s nothing you can do about it as long as they don’t get downed. This essentially gives Thieves the ability to reset any fight without even having to make much of an effort to run away.

As a Guardian who doesn’t particularly like using Shield and a Thief who doesn’t particularly like using Shadow Refuge (in its current state), whenever I see an enemy Refuge go down, I know that the only thing I can really do is run away to prevent them from opening with an unpredictable Backstab. This is how Shadow Refuge is against most classes. When you see it go down you usually just have to accept that the Thief is going to escape or reset.

Shadow Refuge should be changed to help give Thieves more sustainability in a fight rather than simply resetting the fight altogether. Right now it’s all to often just a skill that terribad Thieves use so they can easily escape once they realize you’re not an easy kill (no, I’m not saying everyone who uses Shadow Refuge is bad ).

As someone who plays Thief often (I usually prefer roaming on Thief instead of Guardian for obvious reasons), I would like Shadow Refuge a lot more if it lasted 5 seconds rather than 4, only gave 7 seconds of stealth total (8 when traited for Meld with Shadows), but healed for 4000+ (or something to that effect). The healing should only be active while stealth (so you can’t put down the Refuge and continue fighting if you want the healing). On a side note: I also do not believe Shadow Refuge should affect downed players, because it often makes it impossible to stomp/kill a downed player before they are revived (especially in outnumbered fights).

Why do I think this would make Shadow Refuge a more interesting skill to play with/against?
1. Thieves interested in staying in a prolonged battle can view this as a huge buff.
2. This version is based around the idea of the Thief staying and fighting, rather than just running away and resetting with 16 seconds of stealth. It gives them more health back, which allows them to return to the fight quickly and have a little more sustainability. Because it would give 2-3 extra seconds of stealth (after its 5 second duration), the Thief would still have a chance to reopen on their opponent with a Backstab.
3. It allows for more counter-play besides just knocking the Thief out with a select few skills. Thieves will have to focus more on evading their opponents damage while remaining in the Refuge so they can benefit from the healing and then reopen. In other words, it requires more skill from the Thief than Shadow Refuge currently does to be beneficial.
4. The Thief is a little more predictable. It will be clear that the thief is probably nearby even after the Refuge ends. Additionally, any Backstab coming from the Refuge’s stealth will be possible for a skilled player to avoid because the Thief will only have a short (and, may I add, reasonable) time-frame in which to pull it off. The Thief can, of course, chain stealth from another source to make this Backstab less predictable.
5. Thieves won’t be able to self revive with 16 seconds of stealth anymore! This means that when I see a Refuge go down I won’t have to spend the next 20 seconds running around looking like an idiot stupidly spamming skill 1 in a vain attempt to prevent a Thief who probably is not even downed from self-reviving! Yay!
6. It’s actually a… “Refuge.” Currently Shadow Refuge just makes you stand in one spot for 4 seconds and then you can do whatever the kitten you want for 16 seconds. Not much of a “Refuge.” More like an extended vacation from the fight. :P

Anyway, that’s my opinion. What does everyone else think of Shadow Refuge as it is now? All constructive criticism is welcome.

Brother Gilburt – Guard / Agent Gilburt – Thief

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Posted by: roamzero.9486

roamzero.9486

Your suggestion would ruin it for PVE thieves, one of the few reasons to bring a thief to a dungeon is SR and the utility it brings. Maybe it could work as strictly a sPvP change. I think if there is an answer it should be carefully tuned reveal counters given to classes that need it, like the sick-em buff Ranger’s got.

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Posted by: Azraelle.1683

Azraelle.1683

tl;dr. Learn to write shorter posts.

Thief/Guardian. Desolation [EU]

Time to change Shadow Refuge?

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Posted by: Gilburt.9146

Gilburt.9146

Your suggestion would ruin it for PVE thieves, one of the few reasons to bring a thief to a dungeon is SR and the utility it brings. Maybe it could work as strictly a sPvP change. I think if there is an answer it should be carefully tuned reveal counters given to classes that need it, like the sick-em buff Ranger’s got.

I can’t disagree with you here. I would be fine with it as a WvW/sPvP-only change, however it would be even better if thieves could be useful for more in PvE than just Shadow Refuge. Also, even with reveal counters being added, I still find it hard to justify the 20 seconds of stealth that Refuge currently gives. :P

Brother Gilburt – Guard / Agent Gilburt – Thief

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Posted by: Gilburt.9146

Gilburt.9146

tl;dr. Learn to write shorter posts.

You didn’t even read the one sentence tl;dr-summary and the boldface text it said you should skip to? :o I had people like you when I wrote this absurdly long post.

Brother Gilburt – Guard / Agent Gilburt – Thief

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Posted by: Maesk.8753

Maesk.8753

I agree with the stealth duration change, and the healing change. Im sick of bad thieves reseting over and over to try get the jump on me.

I also agree that it would be a hard hit to pve thieves :c

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Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

Sorry op refuge its fine as is you get 4 secs to get the thief out, fyi gs 5 skill on guard can also pull the thief out of refuge. There is a cast time on refuge so it can be interrupted and a house icon which indicates the location of the thief. The skill is a double edges swords and half time it can save you or get you killed.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir

Time to change Shadow Refuge?

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Posted by: Gilburt.9146

Gilburt.9146

Sorry op refuge its fine as is you get 4 secs to get the thief out, fyi gs 5 skill on guard can also pull the thief out of refuge. There is a cast time on refuge so it can be interrupted and a house icon which indicates the location of the thief. The skill is a double edges swords and half time it can save you or get you killed.

Well, as far as I know Binding Blade will only hit a visible Thief (correct me if I’m wrong), but it could possibly work sometimes if you precast it in anticipation of the Refuge. Also, interrupting Refuge doesn’t seem particularly viable as its cast time is only 1/4s. Perhaps you have better reflexes than me. :P And the House icon only indicates the location of the Refuge, not the location of the Thief, which isn’t particularly helpful.

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

Brother Gilburt – Guard / Agent Gilburt – Thief

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Posted by: Excalibur.9748

Excalibur.9748

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.

All is vain.

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Posted by: Doomdesire.9365

Doomdesire.9365

TBH, if you’re using SR to escape, you’re doing it wrong. It’s best when used in combat. After all, you just need 4s of stealth to create a large enough gap to leave. It’s effective because it’s great to save downed allied, and gives you time to regain initiative.

I wouldn’t made the change you are proposing except it should heal more than 4K.

Let’s assume a thief has 30 into SA. That means 16s stealth from SR, and ~300 healing base in stealth(SA line gives healing power, but I left that out as I was too lazy to do the math) SR heals for a total of 1420.

16 X 300 = 4800 + 1420 = 6220

The new figures would be

300 X 8 = 2400 + 4000 = 6400

The numbers are pretty even. Maybe that was your intent, but IMO, if you reduce the length of stealth given from SR, you should give it more total healing as a buff. Logic would dictate that since you lose 50% stealth time, you should gain 50% more healing, so somewhere in the region of 9000 total healing @ base. This would increase the usefulness of SR in combat, while nerfing the long stealth duration, which would mean 6600 from SR itself, not including shadow’s reguvenation.

With that said, if you don’t have 30 into SA, SR would do alot more for you with your suggestion at 4000 healing total.

tl;dr
OP’s suggested change bad for SA traitline users, good for non SA traitline users.

(edited by Doomdesire.9365)

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.

1. sacrifice HiS and Blind Powder
2. Drop SR away from location
3. watch zerg take dump in SR while you SS away safely
4. ???
5.Profit

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: Excalibur.9748

Excalibur.9748

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.

1. sacrifice HiS and Blind Powder
2. Drop SR away from location
3. watch zerg take dump in SR while you SS away safely
4. ???
5.Profit

lol go ahead and sacrifice 3 skills just to escape…

All is vain.

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.

1. sacrifice HiS and Blind Powder
2. Drop SR away from location
3. watch zerg take dump in SR while you SS away safely
4. ???
5.Profit

lol go ahead and sacrifice 3 skills just to troll…

fixed*

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: Kaizer.7135

Kaizer.7135

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.

1. sacrifice HiS and Blind Powder
2. Drop SR away from location
3. watch zerg take dump in SR while you SS away safely
4. ???
5.Profit

lol go ahead and sacrifice 3 skills just to escape…

Well when you don’t plan on engaging again, it doesn’t matter.

Time to change Shadow Refuge?

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Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

Sorry op refuge its fine as is you get 4 secs to get the thief out, fyi gs 5 skill on guard can also pull the thief out of refuge. There is a cast time on refuge so it can be interrupted and a house icon which indicates the location of the thief. The skill is a double edges swords and half time it can save you or get you killed.

Well, as far as I know Binding Blade will only hit a visible Thief (correct me if I’m wrong), but it could possibly work sometimes if you precast it in anticipation of the Refuge. Also, interrupting Refuge doesn’t seem particularly viable as its cast time is only 1/4s. Perhaps you have better reflexes than me. :P And the House icon only indicates the location of the Refuge, not the location of the Thief, which isn’t particularly helpful.

I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.

In a 1v1 yes SR is very good at saving a thief in groups fights competent players will know the bomb the area. As you stated already you can just leave a get ooc and heal up aswell no loss on you part. Also Blinding Blade hits invisible enemies and after casting it you have 10secs to use the pull so no need to use it immediately. Most thiefs wont stay out of stealth for more than 5sec so you will have plenty of opportunity to interrupt a stealth attempt, pull them out of SR or if they are really low and stealth pull and whirling Wrath ftw.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir