Guild Wars 2

This all from a PvP perspective, just to be clear.

Currently, thieves seem to be the only class that are nigh forced into taking traits that affect their weapon CD’s (Initiative regen traits).

The base regeneration is abysmal – I don’t think there’s an effective thief spec out there that doesn’t dedicate at least a few minor/major traits into regenerating more initiative. This appears to me to be for 2 reason –
A) As a stated above, base initiative regen is a joke – you’re going to be nigh worthless unless you can regenerate initiative steadily or recover alot of initiative in a short period of time to burst with.
B) No matter how you spend your trait points, there is going to be at least one initaitve regen trait that is mathmatically better than taking any other trait choice occupying the same position (or you’re automatically taking it because it’s a minor in the trait line you’ve specced into)

There are 6 major and 3 minor traits that affect initiative regen (or base init pool) in some way – only one of these has an additional effect other than regenerating more initiative (Signet use). In addition 2 utilities regenerate initiative in some way.

Every other class in the game has the option to take traits that lower the CD on a specific weapon, and also offer a secondary benefit.

What I’d like to see is a departure from this – boost base initiative regen, so thieves can actually be effective without relying on initiative regeneration traits. Then tweak the init regen traits to balance things out (“tweak” in this case means “reduce” – I’m not asking for faster initiative regen, just less of an extreme between the speed of traited and untraited init regen), and add secondary effects like every other class has. The secondary effects can be tied to specific weapons (just like every other class) to help limit them and define play styles.

This would make thief a much more interesting class with better options then going some variation of the few cookie cutter builds that are available, IMO.

I got a better idea… how ’bout the devs main a thief for once?

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Do you even play a thief?

The only initiative trait I seem to “need” with D/P is the one where you gain 2 initiative when you stealth, mainly because of the black powder + heartseeker combo you use to stealth up. Otherwise by the time you stack stealth you have no initiative to do anything other than 1, 1, 1, 1, 1… I used to need just about any initiative regen trait there was until I learned how to rely mostly on stealth, backstab, 1, 1, 1, and only use 2-4 strategically. I do however think you are right that most are taking at least 1 trait that in some way helps with initiative gain. I also happen to be using infiltrators signet but for the active effect over the initiative regen.

I do think it would be nice to add a trait or 2 that gives a small boost to initiative regen AND some other effect. I think though too that it is possible to pace yourself better so that you don’t need as much initiative regen as you think you need. One thing that’s easy to forget is thief has no skill cooldowns on 1-5. If you buff the initiative regen TOO much then thief will be firing off 2-5 way faster than any other class can. Sure it will be nice for us but not so nice when a more “pro” thief is on our behind.. :P

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

There are times where I still overachieve and I drop a black powder to follow with HS, but am left sitting in the middle of my powder field with 0-1 initiative left, and have to sit there like a vulnerable fool without any means of escape lol… It doesn’t happen often, mostly only in sustained fights or if I am being focused hard and have already put my heal and blinding powder on cooldown. I am still learning, but my point is I think if you try it for a while, be OK with screwing up a few times and dying and you’ll probably realize you can adapt pretty well.

evilapprentice.6379:

What I’d like to see is a departure from this – boost base initiative regen, so thieves can actually be effective without relying on initiative regeneration traits. Then tweak the init regen traits to balance things out (“tweak” in this case means “reduce” – I’m not asking for faster initiative regen, just less of an extreme between the speed of traited and untraited init regen), and add secondary effects like every other class has. The secondary effects can be tied to specific weapons (just like every other class) to help limit them and define play styles.

The initiative system as it is is fine IMO — but what I rather see is more Init-discount and Init-refunds. I believe that adding more discount/refund is better than changing values in the init regen since it would be easier to balance and tweak skills/traits in the future.

The main issue here is Anet needs to sit down and really study the Thief profession so that they can really evaluate it and give it the changes it needs. So far, we hardly even get a sincere glimpse instead it’s often an angry glare.

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

Forz.1725:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Do you even play a thief?

No, is too hard for me, i cannot manage my initiative pool

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Overall I did agree with the rest of your post, though. If I am playing D/P, I feel it is absolutely necessary to take the +2 initiative on stealth.

To the OP: I think that our initiative regeneration is fine. All of our trait trees have relatively easy to get initiative regeneration, except deadly arts, and we really only have 2 heavy initiative spending weapon sets – S/D and D/P (I guess P/P but that needs a massive rework in my opinion.) I don’t think that we should be able to constantly spam skills and turn this class into a truly brain dead class, that people so often think that we are.

In our current stage, I like that we have to manage our initiative. Sure we need some minor tweaks, but I don’t think initiative regeneration is one of them.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

What I’d like to see is a departure from this – boost base initiative regen, so thieves can actually be effective without relying on initiative regeneration traits. Then tweak the init regen traits to balance things out (“tweak” in this case means “reduce” – I’m not asking for faster initiative regen, just less of an extreme between the speed of traited and untraited init regen), and add secondary effects like every other class has. The secondary effects can be tied to specific weapons (just like every other class) to help limit them and define play styles.

The initiative system as it is is fine IMO — but what I rather see is more Init-discount and Init-refunds. I believe that adding more discount/refund is better than changing values in the init regen since it would be easier to balance and tweak skills/traits in the future.

The main issue here is Anet needs to sit down and really study the Thief profession so that they can really evaluate it and give it the changes it needs. So far, we hardly even get a sincere glimpse instead it’s often an angry glare.

That mechanic sounds fine to me as well – Better in some cases, because it can be set up to reward skillful play. I’d like to see traits being more spec-defining, rather than “you can hit more skills now before you need to take a break”.

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

Forz.1725:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Overall I did agree with the rest of your post, though. If I am playing D/P, I feel it is absolutely necessary to take the +2 initiative on stealth.

To the OP: I think that our initiative regeneration is fine. All of our trait trees have relatively easy to get initiative regeneration, except deadly arts, and we really only have 2 heavy initiative spending weapon sets – S/D and D/P (I guess P/P but that needs a massive rework in my opinion.) I don’t think that we should be able to constantly spam skills and turn this class into a truly brain dead class, that people so often think that we are.

In our current stage, I like that we have to manage our initiative. Sure we need some minor tweaks, but I don’t think initiative regeneration is one of them.

But that’s not my point. My point isn’t “Initiative regen traits are so hard to get”, it’s that they’re necessary, and they shouldn’t be. In my post, I specifically mentioned I’m not asking for faster initiative regen overall, just a smaller gap between untraited Init regen and heavily traited regen.

I would prefer traits that allowed me to define my build a bit more, rather than just a blanket init regen thing.

@evil – I can agree with that and I also like Sir Vincent’s idea about more initiative refunding/discounting traits.

But what I was refering to in my post was that initiative traits only feel necessary on certain weaponsets, such as S/D and D/P. I am very comfortable using D/D, P/D, or SB without taking any initiative regeneration traits at all.

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Mesmers are forced to trait weapons for lower cooldown, we are not alone.

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

You really taking him/her seriously even after posting this?

I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage

That’s a dead give away.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

You really taking him/her seriously even after posting this?

I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage

That’s a dead give away.

I’ve been overly dismissive in the past, and at times it hasn’t worked out for me. I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it seems obvious that I probably shouldn’t.

Best case scenario, I’ve got more proof for my point and maybe I’ve helped him refine his spec/playstyle some. Worst case scenario, at least I wasn’t a kitten about it.

Forz.1725:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Yeah sorry… I am at work while I am typing this (was on the phone).. I had a feeling I got that wrong lol. I swapped that trait out for something, but since you pointed that out I couldn’t remember what for lol. (at the same time I went from 0/30/15/25/0 to 0/30/30/10/0 so I was confused). Now that I am looking at the wiki – My correct statement is I swapped Patience for Shadow’s Embrace.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Forz.1725:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Yeah sorry… I am at work while I am typing this (was on the phone).. I had a feeling I got that wrong lol. I swapped that trait out for something, but since you pointed that out I couldn’t remember what for lol. (at the same time I went from 0/30/15/25/0 to 0/30/30/10/0 so I was confused). Now that I am looking at the wiki – My correct statement is I swapped Patience for Shadow’s Embrace.

I wasn’t aware anyone used Patience.

That’s not me being a prick, but isn’t it sort of useless? I can’t recall if it was bugged, or the boosted regen was so minor that 2 init on stealth was considered almost always better.

There’s a reason everyone runs Infusion of Shadow over Patience, I just can’t remember the specific reason why.

evilapprentice.6379:

I wasn’t aware anyone used Patience.

That’s not me being a prick, but isn’t it sort of useless? I can’t recall if it was bugged, or the boosted regen was so minor that 2 init on stealth was considered almost always better.

Probably… I got rid of it because it DID feel like it was useless lol. (goes back to when I just started thief and I felt I needed every possible init regen)

Condition removal in stealth makes a much bigger (positive) impact.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Forz.1725:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Recently I swapped the “regain initiative faster while in stealth” for the “gain 2 stacks of might when using a skill that stealths you” trait and after about half an hour I wasn’t having problems with the lack of initiative gain.

The trait that gives might stacks is a minor trait after specing 25 points into the SA tree, you can’t swap it, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Yea sorry… I am at work while I am typing this (was on the phone).. I had a feeling I got that wrong lol. I swapped that trait out for something, but since you pointed that out I couldn’t remember what for lol. (at the same time I went from 0/30/15/25/0 to 0/30/30/10/0 so I was confused). Now that I am looking at the wiki – My correct statement is I swapped Patience for Shadow’s Embrace.

I wasn’t aware anyone used Patience.

That’s not me being a prick, but isn’t it sort of useless? I can’t recall if it was bugged, or the boosted regen was so minor that 2 init on stealth was considered almost always better.

There’s a reason everyone runs Infusion of Shadow over Patience, I just can’t remember the specific reason why.

From what I remember, you’re exactly right, the regeneration of Patience is mathematically worse in every way.

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYFlUmaPHfS6cCZ7xOVh8E3DnCpaquCYFA-TsAg0CtIqRVjrGTNyas1MIY9x0CA
Here you go :
- 4 stealth “utility” – steal / HiS / SR / BP
-2 blink “utility” – steal / shadowstep
-3 “panic” buttons -BP / Steal / Shadowstep
-good condition removal
some evades on weapon skills.
after few CnD’s or Shadow Refuge , you can mentain 10-12 might stacks, multiple stealth utility’s will allow you to ( initiative free backstabs ) .
Shortbow can go both ways , offensive and defensive , disable shot +autoattacks can keep you in combat when your utility’s are on cooldown (don’t need to run or die)
DB (D/D ) is good to dodge an mesmer’s shatter or BF /warrior’s chain when you are imobilized and utility’s are on cooldown
autoattack chain (D/D) is good against light armor users ( who use autoatack ? -try it against GC light amor users betwen an HS and CnD)
I will not call it L2P , but if you trade 1 or 2 major traits for init regen, and 1 utility, then you run on combo chain, wich can be kittened easy countered.

But what do i know , imo you should listen to xxxsirvincentxxx cause that’s a dead give
away

nvm

Use this more http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Protector

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYFlUmaPHfS6cCZ7xOVh8E3DnCpaquCYFA-TsAg0CtIqRVjrGTNyas1MIY9x0CA
Here you go :
- 4 stealth “utility” – steal / HiS / SR / BP
-2 blink “utility” – steal / shadowstep
-3 “panic” buttons -BP / Steal / Shadowstep
-good condition removal
some evades on weapon skills.
after few CnD’s or Shadow Refuge , you can mentain 10-12 might stacks, multiple stealth utility’s will allow you to ( initiative free backstabs ) .
Shortbow can go both ways , offensive and defensive , disable shot +autoattacks can keep you in combat when your utility’s are on cooldown (don’t need to run or die)
DB (D/D ) is good to dodge an mesmer’s shatter or BF /warrior’s chain when you are imobilized and utility’s are on cooldown
autoattack chain (D/D) is good against light armor users ( who use autoatack ? -try it against GC light amor users betwen an HS and CnD)
I will not call it L2P , but if you trade 1 or 2 major traits for init regen, and 1 utility, then you run on combo chain, wich can be kittened easy countered.

But what do i know , imo you should listen to xxxsirvincentxxx cause that’s a dead give
away

A) You’ve got opportunist in your build. I know you’re thinking “But I can’t not take it, I want 30CS”, but that’s part of my point – if init regen was tweaked in some way, maybe we could get more interesting minor traits then “Gain more Init when X”
B) Replace Hidden Thief with Infusion of shadow and your spec just got demonstrably better. If we ignore the fact that Hidden thief is buggy (You’ll steal into a revealed if you’ve shot a bow shot, were autoattacking and your timing is off, or if the server is just feeling kitten y), 1 free 2 second stealth every 35s doesn’t compare to 2 init back on stealth – Infusion will grant 2 of your utilities initiative regen in addition to the effects you’re already gaining from those utilities, your heal will regenerate 2 init, and it’ll cut the cost of successful CnD’s by 33%. You’re not running a Max power/crit GC spec, so stealth on steal offers you almost nothing in comparison to how much more flexible your spec would be with Infusion of shadow. If you ran infusion of shadow, you could afford to be much more aggressive in the way you spend Init.

And there’s the rub – Infusion of shadow is just a provably better trait for your spec in the vast majority of cases. I’m sure you’ll say “But I do great with my current spec, I like it!”, but that doesn’t change the fact that the init regen trait is clearly superior to what you have slotted now, and that’s a problem IMO.

@evilapprentice
i saw your point, and yes on first sight it looks great
however oportunist is conditioned – on critical – so thief vs thief, this trait might not help you very much.
regarding : hidden thief vs infused with shadows .
Infused – might be better on your playstyle, however i use a lot autochain, and rely on bursts in middle of fight.
I cannot count , how many times i’ve won an 1 vs 1 cause BP or steal to turn the advantage of the fight (i was 15% hp , enemy 40% – 60% chasing me, steal -backstab auto or HS).
you mention 2 sec stealth every 35 seconds, but you should consider that is no pre-cast time for this skill, it cure an condition and the most important (is nearly untraceable , compared with rest of stealth (CnD / Bp+HS , shadow refuge /blinding powder they all got animations) With 2 enemy’s arround you can do blind steal ( no target) target enemy 1 or target enemy 2. i consider hidden thief 1 of the best traits ingame,

Rayya.2591:

@evilapprentice
i saw your point, and yes on first sight it looks great
however oportunist is conditioned – on critical – so thief vs thief, this trait might not help you very much.
regarding : hidden thief vs infused with shadows .
Infused – might be better on your playstyle, however i use a lot autochain, and rely on bursts in middle of fight.
I cannot count , how many times i’ve won an 1 vs 1 cause BP or steal to turn the advantage of the fight (i was 15% hp , enemy 40% – 60% chasing me, steal -backstab auto or HS).
you mention 2 sec stealth every 35 seconds, but you should consider that is no pre-cast time for this skill, it cure an condition and the most important (is nearly untraceable , compared with rest of stealth (CnD / Bp+HS , shadow refuge /blinding powder they all got animations) With 2 enemy’s arround you can do blind steal ( no target) target enemy 1 or target enemy 2. i consider hidden thief 1 of the best traits ingame,

The effectiveness of Oppurtunist isn’t in question – I’m asking why it even needs to be there. The point is to tweak init regen so thieves don’t need so many traits (minor and major) to get what they need.

You can list all the times Hidden thief did you right, and it doesn’t matter. All I have to say is that the fight would have been even easier with Infusion, and while that’s not true in every single scenario, it’s true generally, and in the majority of times. All those times hidden thief turned the fight around? You probably would have just been outright winning them if you could spend your initiative more aggressively thanks to Infusion.

I’m glad you like hidden thief, but its still demonstrably less effective than infusion is in the vast majority of situations you’re going to encounter in PvP.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

You really taking him/her seriously even after posting this?

I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage

That’s a dead give away.

I’ve been overly dismissive in the past, and at times it hasn’t worked out for me. I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it seems obvious that I probably shouldn’t.

Best case scenario, I’ve got more proof for my point and maybe I’ve helped him refine his spec/playstyle some. Worst case scenario, at least I wasn’t a kitten about it.

Well, suit yourself, but the post is a good indication that this will lead nowhere. The build is so 2012 still trying to pull off a burst that the build no longer have. Nevertheless good luck.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

evilapprentice.6379:

Rayya.2591:

personaly i don’t have any problems with initiative, and i do not use any utility’ or traits that boost initiative. You might need those traits on popular P/D build if you spam black powder.

Mind sharing your setup?
Also, I believe you meant D/P.

yes D/P is heavy initiative user, i’ve misspelled.
I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage
on shortbow 3x clusters +2 disable shot are also enough betwen autoattacks

What you just described isn’t going to kill 95% of players, assuming that every single ability you used hit. What If they dodge/block/immune/blind you?

What do you do after that? Run away? I mean, what else could you do, you’re out of Init!

This isn’t mean to be offensive, but I’m getting the impression you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

well now i have 2 choices :
1. yes sir, i don’t have any choices , i die against everybody , when my initiative pool is empty = i am dead.
2. i could start to explain , how to play thief, when to use autoattack , when to burst , and when to use shadow refuge or other defensive utility’s , how to adapt against enemy (diferent play style against more classes and more builds)
because version 2 is too long, and might bring another question like “and then ?” i will pick version 1. No initiative = i run or i die

Like I said, share your setup. Go to gw2skills.net/editor/en , if you wouldn’t mind, and post your spec. I just can’t think of a spec with 0 traits or utilities that affect init regen that wouldn’t suffer heavily from 1 or 2 well times dodges, and I’m eager to see how you’ve overcome this issue.

You really taking him/her seriously even after posting this?

I use D/D // Shortbow . 3 x DB or 2 x cnd +BS + HS are enough for 1 initiative pool, since thief is ment to do burst damage, not constant damage

That’s a dead give away.

I’ve been overly dismissive in the past, and at times it hasn’t worked out for me. I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt, even when it seems obvious that I probably shouldn’t.

Best case scenario, I’ve got more proof for my point and maybe I’ve helped him refine his spec/playstyle some. Worst case scenario, at least I wasn’t a kitten about it.

Well, suit yourself, but the post is a good indication that this will lead nowhere. The build is so 2012 still trying to pull off a burst that the build no longer have. Nevertheless good luck.

Ah, How I wish that was the case – He’s running a hybrid-ish spec with ~2900power…

I run D/P and I don’t use infusion of shadows (or any points in shadow arts) … Guess I’m weird
But on topic: Yeah I do use initiative regen, just not infusion of shadows since I don’t stealth that incredibly much. Sure things go wrong when I have to run due to my lack of stealth, but more than not a short stealth (3s-5s) with a fake move can trick your opponent enough.
I use quick recovery (and used to run infiltrator’s signet but I took that one out now)

I think it’s ok to have to spend some points into initiative regeneration. Initiative is such a powerful mechanic (when it’s managed right) that I think it’s fair. We’re able to spam abilities that’s really strong, and for those of us that want to do that we need more initiative and then have to spend some points in it.

Other professions have traits that affect cool downs on certain weapons. We’re lucky enough to have traits that affect all our weapon sets instead of one weapon type

Geiir.7603:

I think it’s ok to have to spend some points into initiative regeneration. Initiative is such a powerful mechanic (when it’s managed right) that I think it’s fair. We’re able to spam abilities that’s really strong, and for those of us that want to do that we need more initiative and then have to spend some points in it.

Other professions have traits that affect cool downs on certain weapons. We’re lucky enough to have traits that affect all our weapon sets instead of one weapon type

All of those traits come with an added benefit attached to the weapon. Aside from Signet Use, none of our initiative based traits do anything other than affect initiative. In addition, I don’t think any other class has as much pressure for their reduced CD traits to be required for specs to function as well as they should.

Again, my suggestion isn’t to make initiative regen faster overall – assuming my suggestions were adopted, init regen for similiar specs would be exactly the same. I’m just saying, close the gap between Untraited init regen and heavily traited init regen a little bit, so thieves have more class defining traits other than “I can hit more buttons faster”