Guild Wars 2

I think it’s pretty easy to say that Feline Grace, objectively, is a pretty powerful minor trait overall. It reduces the cost of dodging to 70% of its original amount automatically, and that 30% allows us to dodge, in general, 3 times in a row while in combat.

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time. As it currently stands, Feline Grace is the trait that allows the line between good S/D (or, perhaps more generally, Acro) thieves and bad S/D thieves to become much murkier, as it allows for a huge number of dodges. On the other hand, after the most recent nerf, Sword’s mobility has been at least halved by the absolutely ridiculous difficulty of using IR effectively, and we’ve become largely more vulnerable to conditions.

Thoughts?

Arganthium.5638:

I think it’s pretty easy to say that Feline Grace, objectively, is a pretty powerful minor trait overall. It reduces the cost of dodging to 70% of its original amount automatically, and that 30% allows us to dodge, in general, 3 times in a row while in combat.

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time. As it currently stands, Feline Grace is the trait that allows the line between good S/D (or, perhaps more generally, Acro) thieves and bad S/D thieves to become much murkier, as it allows for a huge number of dodges. On the other hand, after the most recent nerf, Sword’s mobility has been at least halved by the absolutely ridiculous difficulty of using IR effectively, and we’ve become largely more vulnerable to conditions.

Thoughts?

It doesn’t reduce the cost of dodge to 35%, it returns 15%. At 35% you still can’t dodge, but aside from that with sword you are almost required to go down some acrobatics. The dagger aa restores 10% endurance on the 2nd hit, and the chain is rather quick allowing quick dodges for aggressive play. Sword applies conditions and hits hard but no where in it does it restore endurance. That feline grace is what backs up your #3 evasion for s/x incase it is out of your initiative cost for the moment or you need to evade out vs in.

NO.
HELL NO.

You just straight up murdered every single PvE thief. Comparing a dodge mechanism to a teleport mechanism as a tradeoff is nonsense on it’s own, making it very clear that you are a heavy PvP / WvW focusing player.

There was nothing wrong with Infiltrator after the range and stunbreak nerf.
There is nothing wrong with evasion regen. That’s the main and the only pillar of all thief’s survivability, now even in pvp situations as stealth got brutally nerfed by revealed, permastealth, recharge in stealth nerfed.

Enough with the god kitten nerfs already. This class is barely even playable in PvE nowadays, there is literally no reason to play it compared to any other classes when it comes to questions about balance.

But yeah, 40k crit warriors are fine.

I think I recall a nerf to Infiltrator’s Return in which a cast time was introduced, making it impossible to use the skill defensively like a dodge.

I really don’t think you play thief, Arg. Nobody in their right mind would nerf this trait in the state thieves are currently in. Sure, it might be annoying to other classes, but you don’t see dodge thieves simply owning everyone and everything like warriors, mesmers, necros, and guardians do currently. The extra dodge is necessary for thief survival, and if Feline Grace was moved to a 25 point trait, sure. That might be fine. But the fact is that there is already a trade off for any thief who wants to be offensive: Shadow Arts or Acrobatics? Those are our two defensive trait lines, and simply nerfing Feline Grace would be detrimental to the non-stealth thief, further forcing each and every one of us into stealth, and decimating build diversity.

The people asking for nerfs to key traits are so out of touch with the world of PvP it’s like they don’t even play the class, let alone this game. Even with sword 2 reverted, I feel that it would dumb the sword playstyle down. I actually like it right now. It requires a lot of skill to use, and I’m not spamming it every time I have a few conditions or get CC’d as it was prior to the nerf.

Sorry Arg, I just don’t agree with this. “People asking for nerfs” is directed at everyone suggesting them, not just you. At least you consider compensation in other places. Judging by ANet’s decisions with class balance, however, it’s highly unlikely that they provide compensation for any nerfs.

Arganthium.5638:

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time.

No, it’s not only S/x that uses dodges.

Arganthium.5638:

Thoughts?

Hell no. Unintended consequences all over the place from nerfing several non-Sword builds in order to buff one set. If we ever get the cast time removed on IR, it won’t be at the expense of some innocent bystander.

And on another note, keep the editorializing out of balance suggestions.

Look at it this way. There’s only 2 builds that uses Infiltrator’s Strike compare to the number of builds uses Feline Grace. IMO, Feline Grace is a staple trait that most, if not all, builds must have.

so is removing condi per stealth for 10 trait points.

however that said….. most builds run 1 or both of these bc thief has really no defense without them. removing conditions and avoiding dmg. thats all a thief can do. its paramount to survival.

leave them as is.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Viking Jorun.5413:

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Meh.. according to Anet’s philosophy, “if it ain’t broke, break it.”

Arganthium.5638:

I think it’s pretty easy to say that Feline Grace, objectively, is a pretty powerful minor trait overall. It reduces the cost of dodging to 70% of its original amount automatically, and that 30% allows us to dodge, in general, 3 times in a row while in combat.

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time. As it currently stands, Feline Grace is the trait that allows the line between good S/D (or, perhaps more generally, Acro) thieves and bad S/D thieves to become much murkier, as it allows for a huge number of dodges. On the other hand, after the most recent nerf, Sword’s mobility has been at least halved by the absolutely ridiculous difficulty of using IR effectively, and we’ve become largely more vulnerable to conditions.

Thoughts?

I don’t think its necessary. Sizer and Vrael continue to prove that IR is still very usable.

NOOO,
if you want nerf dodge on s/d , then do a Change to flanking strikes , but leave Feline Grace alone because not every thief playing with stealth and dodging is the ONLY OPTION for us to avoid dmg!

Yeah bad idea, this would make the last vigor change even more unbearable for us evade thieves. I know it would be nice to have the insta-cast back but I wouldn’ t swap it for less endurance regen, which is essential to our survbability – besides stealth.

How about if you think there is an issue you solve it by buffing whatever you want to solve rather than nerfing something that is actually useful.

It’s not like Thief is in a state where it needs more nerfs

frans.8092:

Arganthium.5638:

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time.

No, it’s not only S/x that uses dodges.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

Thoughts?

Hell no. Unintended consequences all over the place from nerfing several non-Sword builds in order to buff one set. If we ever get the cast time removed on IR, it won’t be at the expense of some innocent bystander.

And on another note, keep the editorializing out of balance suggestions.

Thief builds are built on one of two (and a half-ish) types of defensive mechanisms. The vastly more popular one is stealth, and the other one and a half-ish mechanisms are the combination of evasion and mobility. Virtually every top thief in the game, over time, has based his/her builds off of one of these two mechanisms (if either of them at all). Caed’s defense (as little of it as there was) came from stealth. Cruuk’s defense came from stealth. Jumper’s defense came from evasion and mobility. So on. Yet, I’d be hard-pressed to find a single thief that had to rely upon both of these mechanisms in order to function.

Apparently, however, you two believe that builds should be created that rely upon both of these mechanisms significantly. I say this because every non-S/X weaponset (excluding the godawful and already useless P/P, and SB, which is a utility weapon anyways) has significant access to stealth and/or the offensive strategy of these weaponsets fits very nicely with stealth, but not so much with evasion. D/D, D/P, and P/D are the three serious weapon sets (and I’m seriously straining myself by calling P/D a “serious” weapon set ) that fit into one or both of these two categories, and, coincidentally, these three with S/P and S/D make the five different weapon sets that thief builds can revolve around.

I’m not arguing that all hybrid stealth and evasion builds are bad (but most of them are), but nerfing Feline Grace is going to have little to no overall effect on those other weaponsets because of the fact that they have stealth anyways. I think it’s safe to say that it’s quite thoroughly been proven that 95% of all builds that don’t stick to one pillar of defense or the other are bad all the time anyways.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Look at it this way. There’s only 2 builds that uses Infiltrator’s Strike compare to the number of builds uses Feline Grace. IMO, Feline Grace is a staple trait that most, if not all, builds must have.

No, no it’s not. That’s really all I have to say to you.

Viking Jorun.5413:

I think I recall a nerf to Infiltrator’s Return in which a cast time was introduced, making it impossible to use the skill defensively like a dodge.

I really don’t think you play thief, Arg. Nobody in their right mind would nerf this trait in the state thieves are currently in. Sure, it might be annoying to other classes, but you don’t see dodge thieves simply owning everyone and everything like warriors, mesmers, necros, and guardians do currently. The extra dodge is necessary for thief survival, and if Feline Grace was moved to a 25 point trait, sure. That might be fine. But the fact is that there is already a trade off for any thief who wants to be offensive: Shadow Arts or Acrobatics? Those are our two defensive trait lines, and simply nerfing Feline Grace would be detrimental to the non-stealth thief, further forcing each and every one of us into stealth, and decimating build diversity.

The people asking for nerfs to key traits are so out of touch with the world of PvP it’s like they don’t even play the class, let alone this game. Even with sword 2 reverted, I feel that it would dumb the sword playstyle down. I actually like it right now. It requires a lot of skill to use, and I’m not spamming it every time I have a few conditions or get CC’d as it was prior to the nerf.

Sorry Arg, I just don’t agree with this. “People asking for nerfs” is directed at everyone suggesting them, not just you. At least you consider compensation in other places. Judging by ANet’s decisions with class balance, however, it’s highly unlikely that they provide compensation for any nerfs.

I almost decided to grace your terribly ignorant and unfounded post with a picture showing how much I play thief, but I decided that that’d be giving you too much credit for who you are anyways. All I’ll say is that Jumper agrees with me about a FG nerf and, if I remember correctly, a IR cast time reversion, and I think you’re the only one that thinks having more mobility and fewer evades would “dumb the sword playstyle down.” Also, it’s not like people have to have make some huge decision whether to take SA or Acro in a S/X build…

If anything they should increase the cast time of Inf return to root out the bad sword thieves.

Arg, I have nothing against you, but you continue to impress me with just how terribly elitist you are, discrediting me and ‘puffing your chest’ as you’d call it, flexing that build sticky you’ve got. I could care less what Jumper thinks. You yourself said once that if I wanted a cult of people who agree with me, to start a YouTube channel and post videos. I haven’t had the best experience with players in the public spotlight – one of the last Profession tournaments, Defektive and KPop couldn’t get their stuff together and ended up throwing the tournament due to half of the entries not knowing how to play their builds. I don’t think of Jumper or Caed in any higher regards, so bringing them up to defend a point does nothing. They have their opinions, but their opinions aren’t something that becomes this all-governing law of truth and whatnot. That being said, if IR were to be un-nerfed, it would automatically become a pseudo-stun-break, which dumbs down any build (this includes staff mesmers, LF Cantrip eles, etc) as far as I’m concerned. I simply don’t believe that having Feline Grace or running sword should be mutually exclusive, and it certainly shouldn’t be nerfed to the ground to accommodate for a single gimmicky build (yep- pointing to Jumper’s dual s/d here).

Arganthium.5638:

Thief builds are built on one of two (and a half-ish) types of defensive mechanisms.

No, builds for thieves come in all shapes and sizes. First of all, stealth does not negate damage and more often then not you have to dodge to avoid something, even in stealth. Stealth is not such a good defensive mechanism, S/P and Shortbow thieves show this. Stealth is also an offensive mechanism and non-sword build with little or no investment in stealth as defence need evasion as much as anyone.

Feline Grace is good as it is now, it provides much needed defence and nerfing it does so for all builds.

Virtually every top thief in the game, over time, has …

There are many, so anyone making claims on behalf of them would best start collecting and categorizing the hundreds of builds and playstyles before claiming anything about ‘virtually every’. For the moment it seems that the active thieves in this thread, including the good ones, are disagreeing with your reasoning.

Caed’s …. Jumper’s

You can not balance around a handful of excellent (sPvP) players. I am curious what Caed and Jumper would think of your suggestion.

Yet, I’d be hard-pressed to find a single thief that had to rely upon both of these mechanisms in order to function.

Anyone can find what they’re looking for and not find what they don’t want to see.

Arganthium.5638:

I’ll simply say that the vast majority of you are probably terrible players anyways,

These kind of remarks discredit their poster.

Going to speak from WvW perspective here but I run Feline Grace in every Thief build of mine (p/d or d/d), for D/D I even dropped Shadow Rejunevation for it and use Withdraw to even have “more dodges”. I feel dodges is the only thing that keeps you alive in 1vX since we have no easy access to protection, healing or stability for that matter it’s essential for me that I can dodge incomming stuns or heavy damage. It’s not even OP, we can dodge 3x in a row and someone else dodges 2×.. but its a huge tradeoff I make in the traitline, making me really vulnerable. It’s not like you’re spamming your dodges, you’re timing them and that one extra dodge just prolongs your time being able to 1vX, which is essentially what I like to do in WvW lol.

I don’t see how thief would benefit from this “nerf-fix” situation other than certain s/d buids.. vigor hit me hard enough when they cut it in half. I would be way more interested to see us buffed OUT OF STEALTH. Hell, make Stealth like frenzy, make us take twice as much damage and give us a significant buff out of stealth lol.

You see, I run -other than Blinding Powder- no stealth utilities at all, not even the Heal.
Buff CnD, make it cost less ini so me missing twice in a row due to Aegis or Blind doesn’t have to be lethal, it’s lame how a trait that autopops every so many seconds can kill you. It doesn’t even require a push of a button. I guess Thief knows well enough how lethal traits can be -cough sa 5 cough-.

Sad thing is WvW is balanced around PvE and Thief in sPvP has been absolutely destroyed unless you run many evades or some super cheesy one trick pony build.

Sorry about going a bit off topic, got carried away. :P

frans.8092:

You can not balance around a handful of excellent (sPvP) players. I am curious what Caed and Jumper would think of your suggestion.

I disagree completely. A competitive game needs to be balanced at, or very near the skill-cap of each class. Not the skill floor.

If you balance for the skill floor, classes will become wildly unbalanced as you move up the skill-ladder. On the other hand, if you balance for the skill-cap, classes will be inherently balanced, and players will simply need to get good enough to play these classes at their full potential, which is what competition is all about.

Reikou.7068:

frans.8092:

You can not balance around a handful of excellent (sPvP) players. I am curious what Caed and Jumper would think of your suggestion.

I disagree completely. A competitive game needs to be balanced at, or very near the skill-cap of each class. Not the skill floor.

No, even a competitive game must include – and be balanced for- both ends of the player skill spectrum or the competitive arenas will be empty in months. And we have yet to discuss whether (a) Guildwars should even try to be an exclusively competitive game and (b) if Guildwars, or any MMORPG can ever truly be ‘competitive’, as any class flavouring will always lead to unbalance.

Then there is the issue of different game modes, sPvP forms a tiny fraction of the player base and if you balance exclusively around the even smaller fraction of high-end, competitive PvP while disregarding balance in other game modes and experience levels, you will loose a large part of those players, and eventually the high-end as well.

On the other hand, if you balance for the skill-cap, classes will be inherently balanced, and players will simply need to get good enough to play these classes at their full potential, which is what competition is all about.

One can not become good by flipping a switch. Experience comes with practice and this starts at the low end of the skill spectrum. A class, or game, that does not provide satisfying playing experience for inexperienced players will eventually bleed dry.

frans.8092:

Reikou.7068:

frans.8092:

You can not balance around a handful of excellent (sPvP) players. I am curious what Caed and Jumper would think of your suggestion.

I disagree completely. A competitive game needs to be balanced at, or very near the skill-cap of each class. Not the skill floor.

No, even a competitive game must include – and be balanced for- both ends of the player skill spectrum or the competitive arenas will be empty in months. And we have yet to discuss whether (a) Guildwars should even try to be an exclusively competitive game and (b) if Guildwars, or any MMORPG can ever truly be ‘competitive’, as any class flavouring will always lead to unbalance.

Then there is the issue of different game modes, sPvP forms a tiny fraction of the player base and if you balance exclusively around the even smaller fraction of high-end, competitive PvP while disregarding balance in other game modes and experience levels, you will loose a large part of those players, and eventually the high-end as well.

On the other hand, if you balance for the skill-cap, classes will be inherently balanced, and players will simply need to get good enough to play these classes at their full potential, which is what competition is all about.

One can not become good by flipping a switch. Experience comes with practice and this starts at the low end of the skill spectrum. A class, or game, that does not provide satisfying playing experience for inexperienced players will eventually bleed dry.

While I agree it would be nice for the game to be balanced at lower skill levels, it shouldn’t be priority, and the reason is plainly stated above. If balance prioritizes lower skill levels, the higher and higher you go on the skill ladder the more out of whack things become.

Reikou.7068:

Arganthium.5638:

I think it’s pretty easy to say that Feline Grace, objectively, is a pretty powerful minor trait overall. It reduces the cost of dodging to 70% of its original amount automatically, and that 30% allows us to dodge, in general, 3 times in a row while in combat.

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time. As it currently stands, Feline Grace is the trait that allows the line between good S/D (or, perhaps more generally, Acro) thieves and bad S/D thieves to become much murkier, as it allows for a huge number of dodges. On the other hand, after the most recent nerf, Sword’s mobility has been at least halved by the absolutely ridiculous difficulty of using IR effectively, and we’ve become largely more vulnerable to conditions.

Thoughts?

I don’t think its necessary. Sizer and Vrael continue to prove that IR is still very usable.

2 decent players. wouldnt call them aamazing.

and also when u using infil return its to remove a condition. its never to create gap. well 95% of the time now. it USED TO be to create gap as u were stunned/KD/dazed etc but not its just a waste of initiative unless ur looking to drop a condi. it channelslongerthan .25s too thats for sure and gives oppoenent a freehit on your way out.

frans.8092:

Arganthium.5638:

Thief builds are built on one of two (and a half-ish) types of defensive mechanisms.

No, builds for thieves come in all shapes and sizes. First of all, stealth does not negate damage and more often then not you have to dodge to avoid something, even in stealth. Stealth is not such a good defensive mechanism, S/P and Shortbow thieves show this. Stealth is also an offensive mechanism and non-sword build with little or no investment in stealth as defence need evasion as much as anyone.

Feline Grace is good as it is now, it provides much needed defence and nerfing it does so for all builds.

As I said in my post, stealth is also an offensive mechanism… This and the fact that it at least provides some degree of defense makes it a possible defensive mechanism. Also, please tell me a single non-sword build with “little or no investment in stealth as defense” that’s viable because of evasion via Feline Grace.

Virtually every top thief in the game, over time, has …

There are many, so anyone making claims on behalf of them would best start collecting and categorizing the hundreds of builds and playstyles before claiming anything about ‘virtually every’. For the moment it seems that the active thieves in this thread, including the good ones, are disagreeing with your reasoning.

Only one or two of the other thieves in this thread are any good. The others I’ve hardly ever heard of, or have nothing to show that’s they’re any good anyways.

Caed’s …. Jumper’s

You can not balance around a handful of excellent (sPvP) players. I am curious what Caed and Jumper would think of your suggestion.

Yes, yes you do. And this is what Jumper said…

Jumper.9482:

Infiltrator’s Return – Increased initiative cost from 2 to 3. Cast time reduced to 0.10 seconds from 0.25 seconds. This ability now ignores aftercasts and cancels skills in queue.

Jumper.9482:

Feline Grace – Reduced effectiveness of this trait by 20%.

Not to mention that he mentions in the same thread that he wrote this after consulting with Caed. Also, he mentioned removing the skill queuing from IR, something I forgot to state, but is nonetheless important.

20% reduction would bring back 12 rather than 15 endurance per dodge, and would create an approximate ~.3 second delay for the third dodge as compared to what a thief already is used to as far as anyone with 15 in Acro. This, along with a reverted IR, would be fantastic. Had you said that in your OP rather than “1/2 or 2/3 of its effectiveness” I would have actually agreed that the trade off would actually be balanced, and obviously ignoring after casts and skill queues would be necessary to use IR as a defensive skill once again.

Arganthium.5638:

I think it’s pretty easy to say that Feline Grace, objectively, is a pretty powerful minor trait overall. It reduces the cost of dodging to 70% of its original amount automatically, and that 30% allows us to dodge, in general, 3 times in a row while in combat.

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time. As it currently stands, Feline Grace is the trait that allows the line between good S/D (or, perhaps more generally, Acro) thieves and bad S/D thieves to become much murkier, as it allows for a huge number of dodges. On the other hand, after the most recent nerf, Sword’s mobility has been at least halved by the absolutely ridiculous difficulty of using IR effectively, and we’ve become largely more vulnerable to conditions.

Thoughts?

even as a lowbie thief, i can tell you right away that this would make me give up any hope of ever reaching level 80 without zerg surfing in WvW for weeks on end.

Travlane.5948:

2 decent players. wouldnt call them aamazing.

and also when u using infil return its to remove a condition. its never to create gap. well 95% of the time now. it USED TO be to create gap as u were stunned/KD/dazed etc but not its just a waste of initiative unless ur looking to drop a condi. it channelslongerthan .25s too thats for sure and gives oppoenent a freehit on your way out.

I’ve said nothing about them being “amazing,” or whatever, simply that they continue to prove that IR is fine as it is.

That said, I’d love to see you even be anywhere near the top of the PvP leaderboards like these guys are in their respective regions before you start claiming that players at the top are “decent players. wouldnt call them aamazing.”

Straight up, bad idea.
Feline Grace is used widely, not just for S/D… Even if the change you suggested would go through… it will be a giant nerf for a lot of builds, and it will effect every mode (WvW/PvE/sPvP) in a rather negative way too… (but, hey, for S/D it might be considered a trade off… for everything else a giant nerf bat)

Though, this has been already been brought up a few times that thieves are too evasive… so I wouldn’t be surprised if they do get nerfed again…

I sure hope that Anet maintain their stance of stopping the pigeon holing of Thieves.

The argument in this thread will pigeon hole Thieves into using stealth more for defense because all other endurance based defense trait has all been hit by the nerf bat.

The last patch proves that Anet don’t listen to people even if your name is Jumper — now I see that was a good thing.