(edited by iSinner.4285)
Trait comparison
Cmon fellow thieves, dont you think this is unfair? share what you think, or we will get stuck with this unfairness for ever.
We have weapon sets to deal with first. Sad, but true. As for traits – they all will have to be reworked sooner or later.
The tratis for the thief are really, really bad (mostly). There’s a few well done ones but most are as you’ve pointed out sub-par especially since they’re nerfed versions of other class traits.
You forgot ones that classes get for their 1200 range weapons allowing them to have 100% piercing. Yet we have a 5% chance to bounce on a 900 range weapon? Just by changing that single trait to 100% chance to bounce twice makes the Pistol weapons set leaps more viable
I agree in general, but i talk about traits that have some procs on crit, and there are similar traits, even with higher chance, with exact same effect, and they do not have cooldowns. Why, what is going on here?
The cooldowns are on the thief abilities because thieves can easily and often do specc into precision giving them 60%+ crit chance. The cooldowns exist because thieves SYNERGIZE better with on crit effects.
What most likely happened is during testing none of them had cool-downs then theives were nerfed while warriors and elementalists didn’t need it.
Thieves have no advantage for specing into crit chance above others, the precision stat is equally accessible by all professions. Warrior can spec a lot more into crit chance because of all the traits giving +% crit chance for signets and adrenaline, yet they have similar traits with NO cooldown.
The only thing i can think of, is that devs just forgot to remove cooldowns at some point.
Daggers have a higher attack rate than Sword. Cooldowns on the crit procs seem like an attempt to balance the two weapons.
Also this has an effect on Pistol Whip and Unload.
Daggers have a higher attack rate than Sword. Cooldowns on the crit procs seem like an attempt to balance the two weapons.
Also this has an effect on Pistol Whip and Unload.
Exactly
Also remember that every Thief enjoys some degree of freedom from cool-downs for weapon skills with the initiative system.
Also this has an effect on Pistol Whip and Unload.
Unload is single target, though Pistol Whip is AOE, but hey, hundred blades?
Dagger attack is not that high, and it is still single target, while eles and warriors can aoe, and a lot. Warrior can hit 5 targets with just 1 swing, so justifying the cooldown like you did, does not make a lot of sense.
Why is the warrior with 20-25 stacks of might from 100b is not a problem(and probably 10-15 stacks of vulnerability on the hundredbladed poor guy), while the thief’s ONLY vulnerability is? i dont get it.
Also remember that every Thief enjoys some degree of freedom from cool-downs for weapon skills with the initiative system.
Warrior enjoys some degree of a*skicking from his eviscerate, but hey, why does he has no cooldowns? my point is, everyone has unique mechanics, this does not justify the fact that the exact same kind of trait(or even better one, like elementalists 60%) has a cooldown on one profession, or has not on other. Or remove the cooldowns that thief has, or add some to others. It will be AT LEAST fair.
The cooldowns are on the thief abilities because thieves can easily and often do specc into precision giving them 60%+ crit chance. The cooldowns exist because thieves SYNERGIZE better with on crit effects.
First of, thats just not true. How do you get to the conclusion that other classes have a harder time getting crit chance?
Every class can trait for precision and get Berserker Gear. I really don’t get your point how Thieves have easier access.
And as we see, with the Thief having so few crit traits, and the few ones even having cooldowns, Thief is probably the class with the least synergy with crits.
Besides that, since when is synergy in a Profession a bad thing?
Daggers have a higher attack rate than Sword. Cooldowns on the crit procs seem like an attempt to balance the two weapons.
Also this has an effect on Pistol Whip and Unload.
This makes totally sense.. when we compare Pistol Whip and Unload with Hundred Blades then.. wait wut!?
And now don’t tell me it’s because of the Initative system.
Spamming abilities on a Thief is already extremely uneffective since it’s so easy to avoid.
One dodge and a spamming Thief has blown his whole Initative into the air, and all his abilities go on global Cool Down.
No offense, no defense, no escape.
There’s no need to “balance” that further by crippling the whole profession with cool downs everywhere.
Whats the point then of the Initative system? Just give the Thief Cool Downs directly then, seriously.
Make him just another “roll your head over the numbers one to five” class, no thinking needed, no complains given.
I’m sick of the Thief being crippled by every feature he has.
First the features make him actually harder to play or involving more thinking, and then other things are also tuned down to “prevent a exploitation” of the feature by spamming certain abilities (even tho the exploitation is less effective than playing right), which also effects people playing the Thief how he is supposed to be played – doing the right (most effective) thing, in the right moment.
And then, after all that, the idiots still cry that Thieves are to strong, just because stealthy glass cannons are pubstompers – provoking further nerfs.
Just give us Cool Downs, and buff our Traits to be on par with other Professions.
Further,
Remove “Pistol Whip” from the game, and reintroduce it as “Fifty Blades”.
Rename “Backstab” to “Surprise Tickle”, which gives the Enemy the Fury boon.
And last but not least, add an 3 second self Daze after casting “Leaping Death Blossom”, in which it plays a animation of the Thief puking all over the place.
//Edit:
I’m not exactly with the OP here.
You can’t compare stuff directly between classes, and it’s not about “fairness”, it’s about balance – and that is a greater picture.
But fact is, over all, the Thief is so incredible lackluster in playstyles and roles, it’s not even funny.
We have (had) 2 viable, even a little bit to strong specs, thats it.
One was already killed, not balanced, killed.
Now only the gimmick backstabber is left (and maybe the LDB spammer, but come on, that con Thieves are a joke against people who can press dodge).
Thieves don’t all play backstabber because it’s OP, they play it because it’s the only thing on par with other professions, but they love the Theme and core playstyle of the profession to much to change it, or got already to invested in their character.
//To clarify, not backstab is to strong, but all the amplyfiers for it combined are. Don’t again cripple all the Thieves playing normally by nerfing or changing the fine core skill (this time backstab, last time pistol whip), just because some people exploit it by sacrificing everything to get every single amplifier for it (in the latest case for one stupid hit every 45 – 60 seconds)//
Thieves are subpar, get it finally, and watch the whole picture, without all the bias of getting gibbed by one of these builds, just because it’s used by everybody since it’s everything they have.
And here i have to agree with the OP. Some of these cases are compareable, and they are ridiculous, even more so, with the whole balance picture in mind.
I’m sick of every profession having access to tons of buffs and debuffs (mostly thru on crit), while Thieves get access to nothing while being the archetype of crit synergy, which is probably the reason Scootabuser.4915, among many others, thought Thieves would have a easier time getting crit related stats, and having synergy with it.
Truth is, Thieves have to sacrifice everything to get these crit stats, just like any other profession too. Just that Thieves don’t really have another choice (but gimmicky con builds). That compared with 11k base health and medium armor leaves a weak class.
With, or without stealth.
(edited by Asum.4960)
And as we see, with the Thief having so few crit traits, and the few ones even having cooldowns, Thief is probably the class with the least synergy with crits.
Have you forgotten about Opportunist?
This makes totally sense.. when we compare Pistol Whip and Unload with Hundred Blades then.. wait wut!?
And thieves have fewer hit points than warriors. Classes aren’t designed around making each trait, skill, and stat individually equivalent. Look at the whole class, not individual little tidbits like this.
Would a better vulnerability-spreading trait break thieves? I don’t think so. But it’s really pointless to play “Warrior gets this, thieves get that” to prove it, instead of talking about how the classes behave as a whole.
It is not about the warrior, it is about all other classes that dont have cooldowns on similar traits, while thieves have.
It is not about the warrior, it is about all other classes that dont have cooldowns on similar traits, while thieves have.
Your comparing the classes too literally, classes aren’t equal, deal with it.
Would a better vulnerability-spreading trait break thieves? I don’t think so. But it’s really pointless to play “Warrior gets this, thieves get that” to prove it, instead of talking about how the classes behave as a whole.
Thats exactly what i just typed into my edit as you were typing this.
As said above, i think many cases are compareable, or, how you also said, there isn’t a reason to not buff that on Thieves, since it wouldn’t make them to strong, but just get them on par.
All in the sense of the big balance picture.
I wrote this exactly not out of the “my class has nothing, and everybody is OP” QQ view, but out of the view of someone knowing a thing about balancing.
I asked Anet for statistics and numbers already, since i need a ton of data to proof my theory about the Thief actually being to weak while also suffering from a serious lack of build diversity (leading to annoying gimick builds, since there is nothing else).
But i guess that won’t happen any time soon
(edited by Asum.4960)
It is not about the warrior, it is about all other classes that dont have cooldowns on similar traits, while thieves have.
Your comparing the classes too literally, classes aren’t equal, deal with it.
Why? I’m dealing with it 2 months already, and i dont understand why i, and all others, have to deal with it. There is no reason for that, at all.
PS You’re, not “your”.
Critical hits have a 20% chance to restore one initiative (1-second cooldown).
I’m with you on the vulnerability thing, that is a proc that takes effect on your target. This, however is a personal buff, and is already incredibly powerful with a 1/sec cooldown. Removing the cooldown would literally make things like PW permaspammable without any other initiative regen traits/skills.
Tulisin, i think too that cooldown on initiative regen is justified. But since you mentioned the “personal buff” from crit proc, how do you feel about warrior stacking a ton of might, like 20ish, just from crit procs? would be interesting to hear some thoughts.
Depends on the length of the might, TBH. I can self-stack 20ish Might too as a thief. It all depends on the effort/investment required to do it.
It is not about the warrior, it is about all other classes that dont have cooldowns on similar traits, while thieves have.
Your comparing the classes too literally, classes aren’t equal, deal with it.
Why? I’m dealing with it 2 months already, and i dont understand why i, and all others, have to deal with it. There is no reason for that, at all.
PS You’re, not “your”.
Let me give you a example, a very simple learning one.
In this example, there are 2 classes, with 1 attack, a set attack speed, and one Trait/Passive (T/P).
Class A does 100 damage per attack, attacking once per second, and has a T/P that speeds up attack speed by 50 %.
Class B does 25 damage per attack, attacking twice per second, and has a T/P that speeds up attack speed by 300 %.
Now you can’t go ahead and say “Class B’s Passive is ridiculous, it’s 6 times as strong as A’s and therefore OP (and B is ALREADY attacking faster than A)”, since it’s actually what makes them “equal”.
Of course balance is SO much more complex.
Just think about all the variables with other passives taken, passives not taken, synergies, items, different skills…
Also you don’t want to create perfectly equal classes, but each one with different strengths and weaknesses, and them being in relation to each other balanced.
Most people don’t get all the factors playing a role, and how a even bigger picture is needed to compare different classes/characters.
You can’t just say class A has this passive, and B has this, and B’s is stronger or as well as A’s attack is stronger, or B’s attack speed is OP.
One example for judgement without differentiation even within one class is the QQ about backstab, and the change/nerf suggestions for that particular skill, while backstab is perfectly fine, but other numbers over the top (when all added up).
Let’s take A, and give him a passive that increases Attack Damage by 300 %.
That passive would outperform both other passives of A and B.
But that doesn’t mean A’s attack dmg has to be tuned down, because somebody got hit for 400 dmg.
But that’s what the QQ’ers will say.
“Nerf A’s attack damage, i got hit for 400 dmg”.
And once that is done, A’s attack speed trait is useless, or more to the point, his actual Attack Damage is UP, as well as all amplifiers thru a third source.
And in a similar situation is the Thief right now.
He has this “one” Trait which is over the top (the sum of all amplifiers), while everything else is actually to weak (since he is balanced around that sum – while that sum is still to strong).
Now ANet can’t go ahead and just nerf the Attack (Backstab), instead of nerfing that one to strong trait (the sum, or one/all things leading to the sum) and buffing all to weak traits to compensate, or the class would vanish due to having nothing left.
Thief is not OP, it’s actually quite the opposite.
There are just some factors, variables, or as i call them, ampliefiers over the top. Or more to the point, every amplifier is fine for it’s own, but the possible sum, amplifying a specific attack, results in a to powerful instrument.
Let’s hope Anet knows how to do that job right.