Guild Wars 2

I’m pretty new to thief and the game itself, but I did play enough to notice this class is pretty shabby when it comes under condi pressure. The silly condi removal Signet of Agility, Infiltrator’s Return from sword (5 initiative to remove 1 condition) and Shadowstep aren’t too much of a life-saver for this class (especially with the low hp pool and the lack of stability/invicibility utilities that all other classes have).

Second thing is, thieves can’t spam their skills (again, like all the other classes can), so that means the “First Strikes” trait is even more encouraging an auto-attack approach (true, true, it means added kick on backstab).

Lastly, the traits which help remove conditions have either long cd’s and requirements to be met or they kinda “enforce” stealth usage.

With all these in mind I was thinking that, with the class revamp inc maybe that particular train in Crits could be redesigned to actually help remove conditions on crit. Say, 60% chance to cure one condition on crit. That won’t mean way too much in the current, condi heavy, world. And since thieves are a precision focused class, it would be nice to have something attached to it like this (I mean, ye, thieves “specialization” is stealth, but mesmers can also make really good use of it too, with quite a lot of delicious things attached to their stealths, so that still leaves the high chance to crit as the class’ defining mechanic).

Condi removal seems a pretty common problem for thieves. The only reliable source of condi removal is heal skill in my opinion (if you know what condi you will get).

But in the specialization trait change, thieves will get “trickster”.
“20% cooldown reduction on trick, trick will remove 1 condition” and withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks. So I guess if you take withdraw with trickster trait, you will get 12s condi removal (+ also cure movement impairment condi). I think it will help a lot, at least in PvE context

gin.7158:

Condi removal seems a pretty common problem for thieves. The only reliable source of condi removal is heal skill in my opinion (if you know what condi you will get).

But in the specialization trait change, thieves will get “trickster”.
“20% cooldown reduction on trick, trick will remove 1 condition” and withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks. So I guess if you take withdraw with trickster trait, you will get 12s condi removal (+ also cure movement impairment condi). I think it will help a lot, at least in PvE context

The problem with trickster is that you have to give up bountiful theft for it. You lose a lot of good utility with that. It’s part of the reason trickery is so good.
You lose out on a lot just for condi removal.

alchemyst.2165:

gin.7158:

Condi removal seems a pretty common problem for thieves. The only reliable source of condi removal is heal skill in my opinion (if you know what condi you will get).

But in the specialization trait change, thieves will get “trickster”.
“20% cooldown reduction on trick, trick will remove 1 condition” and withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks. So I guess if you take withdraw with trickster trait, you will get 12s condi removal (+ also cure movement impairment condi). I think it will help a lot, at least in PvE context

The problem with trickster is that you have to give up bountiful theft for it. You lose a lot of good utility with that. It’s part of the reason trickery is so good.
You lose out on a lot just for condi removal.

I don’t see much of a problem with giving up bountiful theft to run trickster. As it is now, there must be a reason why every top tier team has a thief. If they really succumbed THAT easily to condo pressure and were rendered useless by it, then we wouldn’t see as much of it. For people who want stronger condo removel, it’s only right that you exchange an equally strong trait out for it. The condi clear we have right now doesn’t seem like much, but that’s something we have to trade for our superior damage, both burst and sustained. Besides, bountiful theft can be replaced with two uses of flanking strike, especially if you know how to use it. I see many s/d thieves spam it, here’s a trick, use either the first or second part with steal. Works well.

I run 06053, no bountiful theft. I love it, because I do pretty sweet damage, and I don’t need to worry about steal being blocked or dodged or interrupted.

If you want something with high damage and plenty of condo clear, you could always play a meditation guardian. They hit like trucks, and they have a lot of condo clear and healing. However, very low mobility. Proper way to fight a guardian IMO is to constantly be disengaging and reengaging , And dodging to make sure they miss their big damage skills.

Tl;dr condi cleanse is fine IMO, any more and you need to remove an equally powerful aspect of thief

alchemyst.2165:

gin.7158:

Condi removal seems a pretty common problem for thieves. The only reliable source of condi removal is heal skill in my opinion (if you know what condi you will get).

But in the specialization trait change, thieves will get “trickster”.
“20% cooldown reduction on trick, trick will remove 1 condition” and withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks. So I guess if you take withdraw with trickster trait, you will get 12s condi removal (+ also cure movement impairment condi). I think it will help a lot, at least in PvE context

The problem with trickster is that you have to give up bountiful theft for it. You lose a lot of good utility with that. It’s part of the reason trickery is so good.
You lose out on a lot just for condi removal.

Oh I think withdraw on a 12 second cooldown using trickster wherein a thief traits virtually all tricks in the utility bar (withdraw/RFI/Scorpion rite/Caltrops/daggerstrom are all nice skills) is going to be very effective,

In fact I really think an ALL trick build would be very good especially when you couple Withdraw with a runeset that provides a bonus on a heal. As example Runes of the adventurer giving back half endurance every 12 seconds.

Your on heal trait out of acrobatics is then 5 secs vigor base on a 12 second cooldown and you can leverage that on heal even more to get 4 ini back off hastened replenishment which would work great in high INI use builds like p/p.

In acrobatics you can take Guarderd Ini . If guarded ini can be maintained long enough you might have all the condi removal you need from those tricks. Yes just like bountiful theft that new hard to catch is hard to ignore but that a GOOD thing as either choice will work and IMHO work well which will provide for very different builds.

With 5 seconds base on both the Vigor on heal trait and Guarded Ini a 20 percent boon duration increase will get one full second more off each which i feel will go a long ways towards keeping close to full vigor uptime WITHOUT bountiful theft meaning the vigor off bountiful theft becomes moot.

babazhook.6805:

alchemyst.2165:

gin.7158:

Condi removal seems a pretty common problem for thieves. The only reliable source of condi removal is heal skill in my opinion (if you know what condi you will get).

But in the specialization trait change, thieves will get “trickster”.
“20% cooldown reduction on trick, trick will remove 1 condition” and withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks. So I guess if you take withdraw with trickster trait, you will get 12s condi removal (+ also cure movement impairment condi). I think it will help a lot, at least in PvE context

The problem with trickster is that you have to give up bountiful theft for it. You lose a lot of good utility with that. It’s part of the reason trickery is so good.
You lose out on a lot just for condi removal.

Oh I think withdraw on a 12 second cooldown using trickster wherein a thief traits virtually all tricks in the utility bar (withdraw/RFI/Scorpion rite/Caltrops/daggerstrom are all nice skills) is going to be very effective,

In fact I really think an ALL trick build would be very good especially when you couple Withdraw with a runeset that provides a bonus on a heal. As example Runes of the adventurer giving back half endurance every 12 seconds.

Your on heal trait out of acrobatics is then 5 secs vigor base on a 12 second cooldown and you can leverage that on heal even more to get 4 ini back off hastened replenishment which would work great in high INI use builds like p/p.

In acrobatics you can take Guarderd Ini . If guarded ini can be maintained long enough you might have all the condi removal you need from those tricks. Yes just like bountiful theft that new hard to catch is hard to ignore but that a GOOD thing as either choice will work and IMHO work well which will provide for very different builds.

With 5 seconds base on both the Vigor on heal trait and Guarded Ini a 20 percent boon duration increase will get one full second more off each which i feel will go a long ways towards keeping close to full vigor uptime WITHOUT bountiful theft meaning the vigor off bountiful theft becomes moot.

What are your thoughts on replacing the utility of shadow step and shadow refuge In exchange for the tricks? Shadow refuge already instantly removes three conditions, and SR is almost vital for the party support it provides, as well as the helpful long stealth duration. Since I plan on running Da/Acro/trickery with trickster and guarded initiation, I figured I could drop shadow refuge and take RfI, scorpion wire, and shadow step. This maintains plenty of condi clear, and scorpion wire is good for party support in the sense that it helps prevent foes from stomps and interrupts them. And if not, daze on steal would work. I personally love SR. and SS but other utilities may become more viable and fun with trickster traited. And withdraw is gonna be fantastic.

The universal answer is putting 2 points in Shadow Arts for passive cleansing while stealthed.

It’s awful, because you’re forced into Last Refuge, which is honestly what I think to be the worst trait in the game because it reveals you on activation if you’re in stealth already, and it’s really boring and passive.

That said, the SA line generally speaking is overpowered in terms of fighting potential. This trait line being OP has largely been the justification for various nerfs over the years, without making changes of course to the culprits themselves.

I have mixed feelings on Guarded Initiation. Seeing as it comes in the form of a boon, and it only lasts 5 seconds, I feel like this may leave us quite vulnerable still to boon rip effects from engis, mesmers, other thieves, and necros while not giving back much in return.

Maybe we can look towards the specialization to giving us better options, but I’m not holding my breath.

Klowde.9876:

babazhook.6805:

alchemyst.2165:

gin.7158:

Condi removal seems a pretty common problem for thieves. The only reliable source of condi removal is heal skill in my opinion (if you know what condi you will get).

But in the specialization trait change, thieves will get “trickster”.
“20% cooldown reduction on trick, trick will remove 1 condition” and withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks. So I guess if you take withdraw with trickster trait, you will get 12s condi removal (+ also cure movement impairment condi). I think it will help a lot, at least in PvE context

The problem with trickster is that you have to give up bountiful theft for it. You lose a lot of good utility with that. It’s part of the reason trickery is so good.
You lose out on a lot just for condi removal.

Oh I think withdraw on a 12 second cooldown using trickster wherein a thief traits virtually all tricks in the utility bar (withdraw/RFI/Scorpion rite/Caltrops/daggerstrom are all nice skills) is going to be very effective,

In fact I really think an ALL trick build would be very good especially when you couple Withdraw with a runeset that provides a bonus on a heal. As example Runes of the adventurer giving back half endurance every 12 seconds.

Your on heal trait out of acrobatics is then 5 secs vigor base on a 12 second cooldown and you can leverage that on heal even more to get 4 ini back off hastened replenishment which would work great in high INI use builds like p/p.

In acrobatics you can take Guarderd Ini . If guarded ini can be maintained long enough you might have all the condi removal you need from those tricks. Yes just like bountiful theft that new hard to catch is hard to ignore but that a GOOD thing as either choice will work and IMHO work well which will provide for very different builds.

With 5 seconds base on both the Vigor on heal trait and Guarded Ini a 20 percent boon duration increase will get one full second more off each which i feel will go a long ways towards keeping close to full vigor uptime WITHOUT bountiful theft meaning the vigor off bountiful theft becomes moot.

What are your thoughts on replacing the utility of shadow step and shadow refuge In exchange for the tricks? Shadow refuge already instantly removes three conditions, and SR is almost vital for the party support it provides, as well as the helpful long stealth duration. Since I plan on running Da/Acro/trickery with trickster and guarded initiation, I figured I could drop shadow refuge and take RfI, scorpion wire, and shadow step. This maintains plenty of condi clear, and scorpion wire is good for party support in the sense that it helps prevent foes from stomps and interrupts them. And if not, daze on steal would work. I personally love SR. and SS but other utilities may become more viable and fun with trickster traited. And withdraw is gonna be fantastic.

These were my thoughts exactly. Looking in the traits we see a lot more in the way of stun breaks that can be traited rather then using a utility for that. The nice part of shadowstep is that port but I am thinking a PULL can be as good if not better then a port in very many situations. It will have a nice low cooldown of 16 seconds.

SR might become a lot harder to use with the various skills being added that can target an area and I would like to as much as possible avoid stealth in certain builds. It all remains to be seen

The high burst isn’t something only thieves can do – roughly all classes having this. The mobility isn’t, again, a thieves-only perk, but the low survivability and vulnerability to conditions are.

A D/P thief would spend 8 ini to gain stealth from combo, a S/- needs 5 for the infiltrator’s chain and so on. With a pretty low ini regain (even with the Crit Strikes trait), First Strikes really favors the auto-attack/Backstab spamming.

Now, in PvE you kinda know what conditions you might get: all. Among the most annoying being torment and confusion, which no trait or heal can remove (leaving you with stealth option or the weak skills). And while /D might be an option to gain stealth and clear some condi pressure, I find myself “forced” out of any weapon combo like that (simply because P/P or bow and the S/P both offer a much better dps output).

Now if we look at all classes, they’re quite proficient in removing conditions. And they don’t lack mobility (shadowsteps, weapon skills, speed buffs, etc). Nor damage – be it from condi builds (which thieves also lack) or sheer damage (with lots of weapon skills for happy-spamming).

With all these in mind I’m not so sure that there’s a fair trade-off for thieves (glass-cannon type profession is fair, but not when all other classes can achieve a more sturdy cannon setup). Hence, upgrading a minor trait that we’re quite sure to use at all times could add some more versatility in the builds setup while slightly improving the odds of survival for the class. So a First Strikes trait with “60% chance to clear 1 condition on critical hit” with some 3 seconds cd isn’t going to be a game-breaker, but will certainly help a lot.

On a side note, shouts heal, meditations heal, survival skills clear condi – they’re all traits that improve QoL for those classes (I’m pretty sure necros don’t lack condi removal and neither do engis – both having plenty survival options and high damage output).

Thief condi removal over time is actually decent when traited for shadow embrace.

The problem is dealing with condi bombs, as we have low HP to soak those up and very limited burst condi removal skills. Shadowstep is nice but often to get that 3 condi removal, you’d have to go back to the danger area and if you get confusion stacks on you, the 2 steps to remove the condis hurt a lot.

Condi bomb + reveal from engi/ranger or anyone in wvw = gg

Omocha.4931:

The high burst isn’t something only thieves can do – roughly all classes having this. The mobility isn’t, again, a thieves-only perk, but the low survivability and vulnerability to conditions are.

A D/P thief would spend 8 ini to gain stealth from combo, a S/- needs 5 for the infiltrator’s chain and so on. With a pretty low ini regain (even with the Crit Strikes trait), First Strikes really favors the auto-attack/Backstab spamming.

Now, in PvE you kinda know what conditions you might get: all. Among the most annoying being torment and confusion, which no trait or heal can remove (leaving you with stealth option or the weak skills). And while /D might be an option to gain stealth and clear some condi pressure, I find myself “forced” out of any weapon combo like that (simply because P/P or bow and the S/P both offer a much better dps output).

Now if we look at all classes, they’re quite proficient in removing conditions. And they don’t lack mobility (shadowsteps, weapon skills, speed buffs, etc). Nor damage – be it from condi builds (which thieves also lack) or sheer damage (with lots of weapon skills for happy-spamming).

With all these in mind I’m not so sure that there’s a fair trade-off for thieves (glass-cannon type profession is fair, but not when all other classes can achieve a more sturdy cannon setup). Hence, upgrading a minor trait that we’re quite sure to use at all times could add some more versatility in the builds setup while slightly improving the odds of survival for the class. So a First Strikes trait with “60% chance to clear 1 condition on critical hit” with some 3 seconds cd isn’t going to be a game-breaker, but will certainly help a lot.

On a side note, shouts heal, meditations heal, survival skills clear condi – they’re all traits that improve QoL for those classes (I’m pretty sure necros don’t lack condi removal and neither do engis – both having plenty survival options and high damage output).

The thing about balance is this: if it’s going to help a lot, it’s going to be a game breaker, unless equal compensation is given. Now, if we’re talking about PvE, most condition pressure is heavily telegraphed: burning in CoF, bleeds and poison in AC. Thief rewards high skill levels. There are many ways for one to Evade condi placement in the first place. If it’s not there, no need to clear it. Additionally, in optimal dungeon situations, you have a guardian or an ele bringing the condi clear. I have yet to find an encounter where conditions are constantly a problem, except for conditions that cannot be removed, like the claws blue ice. Also, d/d is the strongest single target thief weapon set for PvE. No need to clear damage, your job is to avoid it and dps.

In pvp, stealths and evades are very powerful for our defense. Most condition pressure I’ve experienced in pvp is from condi necro and engi. Just the other day, I remember a beautiful fight between me and a condi necro; I stayed out of his wells or condi cleared really well with sword 2, and used shortbow. I kept moving and dodging through the wells so my sword could hit him. In this case, he had no choice but spread out his wells everywhere because I was abusing my mobility against him. In the end, he hardly touched me and I stomped him.

Sure all classes have burst, but not all classes have THIS much burst. Today I was playing a guardian in pvp. I happily walked over to a point and saw a thief taking down my teams warrior, so I go to help. In an instant, my hp went from 15k to downed state. I was so confused, and then I realized what happened. I saw two thieves, and my thoughts were confirmed. Both stealthed through pistol. Either both back stabbed or one back stabbed and the other heartseekered. Either way, literally in the blink of an eye I was down. No time to react at all. No class can deal this burst in this time frame. I have never seen anything like this. To take me down to half with one attack, that’s the crazy stuff that defines a thief.

Tl;dr I think thieves are fine. High risk, high reward, if you want more condo cleanse, you need to sacrifice something else.

P.s new specialization a will have s trickery trait for thief, which clears one condition on a trick usage. Withdraw and dagger storm will be tricks, along with our current tricks. Plenty of condi cleanse.

Caught off-guard, you can get downed not only by thieves (especially if 2), but also by a necro, a ranger, a guardian or an ele (mesmer would need some seconds to prep everything and I’m guessing warrior would need some adrenaline).

Rangers can pack ~5-6k damage on auto-attacks if they sigil’ed air/fire. Necros can down you under lich form, eles have so many skills to spam so fast that it’s just irrelevant what they do (for me – watched an ele fighting in pvp and, while I believe he wasn’t really mindlessly mashing the keyboard, with 20 damage skills to roll through – who cares?! ^x^) as for the guard, we all know the punch they have when launching their attack chain under aegis. And in pvp you have enough time during rotations to recharge all your skills (most of the time, at least).
However, those classes have a lot of damage/pressure mitigation and relatively high to really high hp pools. I’m not complaining about the damage on thief, nor about their hp pool (which is probably the lowest in the whole class spectrum). Stealth and the extra evade do help, yes, but so do 3 clones and stealth on a mesmer with higher hp pool, blocks and both mobility and condi removal for example.

I agree that thieves require more focus that most other classes, which is why I love to play it (and hopefully get to master it one day), but it doesn’t really feel like “high risk, high reward”, more like “high risk, extra focus, normal results”. Can’t spam skills, can’t clear conditions, no high hp pool, no summons, no extra hp bar, no invulnerability or stability and just slighly higher than average damage output. While I prefer this everyday over the Rapid Fire happy class, I still think there’s just too much trade away (needless to add the “No Valid Path” hidden enemy in the thief’s mobility section).

I did read about the trickery trait for thief and about the changes of those two skills (after making the thread), but between that and the let’s call it “suggestion” of adding condi removal among the Crit’s minor traits I think the latter would be better and not really ruining the experience for any of our foes (not that I care all that much about the cheating npcs kittenet their hps or turn invulnerable when they get a “No valid path”).

As for instances and such, the normal zerk trend (kill before you die) doesn’t raise a problem, unless not going in a full group (and I’m not) which would lead to a “attrition war”. A good example would be the Colossus instance in FotM, where you get literally spammed with conditions from so many sources and so often that it’s nigh impossible to dodge them all out or stealth-clear them. I know, FotM aren’t designed to be duo’ed (wishing they were though), but still – if I can survive on ele and guardian alone there and I push up daisies in no time on thief, then maybe not all classes have the same fighting chance.

Anyway, hope dies last (still hoping for bug-free Ogre Wars, targets never too close and more valid paths) ^x^

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Thief condi removal over time is actually decent when traited for shadow embrace.

The problem is dealing with condi bombs, as we have low HP to soak those up and very limited burst condi removal skills. Shadowstep is nice but often to get that 3 condi removal, you’d have to go back to the danger area and if you get confusion stacks on you, the 2 steps to remove the condis hurt a lot.

Condi bomb + reveal from engi/ranger or anyone in wvw = gg

Yes its the bombs that get you which why my human thief better at survival than is my Norn thief just because when dealing with bombs I will sometimes have Kormir in there.

My hope is that the “guarded resistance” trait will run 20 percent of the time which in my opinion will help with those bombs. My fear is that unless I trait stealth for rejuv and reset of health it going to be very hard to get that health back to 100 percent once the battle starts. That said if I do get it up at the beginning of the battle and it lasts long enough to ward off one condi bomb that might be all the advantage I need.

That first few moments in a battle on a thief is telling. The other day I was standing in an open field looking at a map in WvW to see where I should go next and warning others in Chat that our hills under attack. In that very short period of time I was attacked by another thief and my health plummetted to around 10 percent. There was no ability to recover.

You know there’s a problem when your class deficiencies are so invasive you depend on racial abilities designed to be outright weak.

DeceiverX.8361:

You know there’s a problem when your class deficiencies are so invasive you depend on racial abilities designed to be outright weak.

Well obviously this in part a choice made on my part as I did not want to trait 2 in SA for Shadows embrace because I really wanted that 2 points in DA to get that poison on steal. I felt giving up a utility and taking Kormirs was something more easily done.

With condition removal on use of a trick this will change and I get the feeling it will be enough.

Don’t get me wrong, I also run 0 in SA.

That said, when Kormir is our best burst condition cleansing ability, there’s an issue with thief’s condi burst cleansing.