Guild Wars 2

Hey Buddies!

The mood in the thief forum seems to be pretty bad lately.
Yes the build diversity is pretty non existant and the other classes got a lot of nice new shiny toys.

But cheer up! I am sure the sky isn´t falling. The developers will try their best to get some fresh air into our class. They are just super busy.

So lets stay constructive and provide feedback and ideas of how the thief class could be advanced, brought in line etc.

I took the time and went over our current traitlines. Reworked some traits with the idea of build diversity and fitting the theme of the traitline in mind.

Before you start to read through the attachments. Open Youtube and get into the right mood for the different traitlines.

As an example:

Deadly Arts: Poison – Alice Cooper

Critical Strikes: Rock you like a hurricane – Scorpions

Shadow Arts: Shadows – Lindsey Stirling

Acrobatics: Kungfu fighting – Carl Douglas

Trickery: Its Tricky- RUN DMC

I hope you find some of my ideas interesting and can already find some possible builds.

Stay positive! Discuss! Believe in Karl!

Best regards,

Shino

hahaha that’s well thought out. I appreciate the efforts to make it presentable. We are all excited to Daredevil reveal, but i am sure you will get a lot of feedback

- DA: good.
- CS: not bad.

-SA: Venous Aura is well thought out. 1 poison every 10 seconds is reasonable and mitigates the drawbacks of stupid CDs

-Acro: Guarded Initiated has improved but I still don’t like it. anything with a health threshold of 80%+ is useless.

- Trickery: Pressuring Strike , me gusta
Trickster, I would be so happy if withdraw removed extra conditions
Good incentive to use scorpion wire
Same thing for Daggerstorm it could be a little OP, btu we do need more torment.

Not bad at al to be honest. I wouldn’t change SA or DA, the suggestions were still good.

Oh yeah bad timing with posting this.
Now everyone is focused on the new spec and not so much at our lacking core traits. ^^

Thank you for your Feedback!
Best regards!

Reading the trait changes right now! Nice post to see here, much needed.

I’ll maybe post here an Acrobatics rework, if I manage to do it as clear as your pics. :P

Edit: my thoughts!

DA:
- I think Revealed Training would hurt the PvE side of the game for Thieves but it could be really good for PvP, making it somewhat impactful.
- The one I liked the most was Blood Poisoning, adding sustain via the insane amounts of Poison the Thief can get, really nice one.

CS:
- On Practiced Tolerance, I don’t think they will ever add Vitality again on that trait. Instead, CS being more damage focused, I’d put something like 10% for Ferocity and 5-7% for Power, enhacing the offensive side of Thief.
- The change you proposed for Sundering Strikes is really nice and could see some play if enemies have high numbers of boons. Maybe it should need an ICD of 2 or 3 seconds.
- Hidden Killer would need an ICD too, sounds quite OP. :P

SA:
- Lots of changes to the “on-stealth” traits. Making them work only while revealed would kill at some extent the trait line theme. If there were more tools to cause “Revealed” status on players, it’d be fine.
- Good try on the Venomshare trait. However, I think that the venom skills themselves need a rework of some kind.

Acro:
- I want that Vigorous Recovery. Please. cries
- Feline Grace. That’s how it should have been changed from the start, no more random dodges. You need the condition of dodging something.
- In my opinion, Guarded Initiation needs some kind of rework, more than that. On the other hand, I think Hard to Catch is fine as it is… not going to deny a buff to it either!
- Upper Hand… Were you trying to make a useful Grandmaster trait for Acrobatics? That can’t be! We always had useless Grandmaster traits for this trait line!

Trickery: omg so many OP things here
- If they would release Trickster as you listed there, I think it’d be OP, but lot of fun! I like the fact that it enhaces a utility type, giving them other fitting features (such as the Caltrops or the Scorpion Wire additions: more conditions, more disruption).
- That Quick Pockets should compete with Sleight of Hand. We just need a Fire Field and we can be Warriors 2.0 and Celestial!

Good changes listed so far. Some of them were meh, didn’t change anything (on my experience) but overall those are just imaginative and good changes!

Yeah would be interested on your approach on acrobatics.
Always keep the other trait lines in mind.
Some stuff may synergize too well.
;)

Best regards!

Here’s one of the problems with our core spec. For poison for example, it forces us to spec DA and SA…they need to keep the poison in one trait line. So any proposed fixes should address this problem.

DA should never have condition damage in it. It should be pure power-based trait line.

Each major trait in each line should offer an option for offense, hybrid, and defense/support. So the choices is not between which offensive trait I should take but instead if I want to risk it all, be balance, or less risk.

For example – DA;
Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.
Minor Master – Lotus Strike – Weaken vulnerable targets.
Minor GM – Exposed Weakness – (no change)

This way, each of these traits actually compliments each other without relying on poison and condition damage.

Examples continue;
Major Adept:
- Dagger Training (offensive) – Dagger attacks while dual-wielding daggers has a chance to strike with both weapons. Off-hand dagger deals 25% less damage.
- Mug (hybrid) – (no change)
- Siphon Speed (defensive) – Cripple your target when you use a healing skill. Gain Swiftness.

Major Master:
- Revealed Training (offensive) – (no change)
- Panic Strike (hybrid) – (no change)
- Deadly Trapper (defensive) – Trap’s damage scales from Power instead of Condition Damage. Trap recharges are reduced.

Major GM:
- Executioner (offensive) – (no change)
- Improvisation (hybrid) – (no change)
- Pain Response (defensive) – Gain regeneration and remove conditions when struck while your health is below the threshold. (15s cooldown)

I believe that this approach will allow a lot of build diversity.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.

This is not ideal, as it does not reduce target healing.
Poison on Steal is useful for many builds for that alone, since many builds do not actually have the Poison condition. My build would not, without Serpent’s Touch.

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.

This is not ideal, as it does not reduce target healing.
Poison on Steal is useful for many builds for that alone, since many builds do not actually have the Poison condition. My build would not, without Serpent’s Touch.

I understand, but the poison on steal should be in SA, not DA, where it belongs.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.

This is not ideal, as it does not reduce target healing.
Poison on Steal is useful for many builds for that alone, since many builds do not actually have the Poison condition. My build would not, without Serpent’s Touch.

I understand, but the poison on steal should be in SA, not DA, where it belongs.

Being even more fair, I’d put it into the Trickery Specialization because it’s the one that “improves” the Steal skill and has some condition thingies on it.

am I the only one who thinks Venomous aura should be in DA, not SA?

I was under the impression that VA was a condition skill – and DA is the condition tree, right?

Poliator.7021:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.

This is not ideal, as it does not reduce target healing.
Poison on Steal is useful for many builds for that alone, since many builds do not actually have the Poison condition. My build would not, without Serpent’s Touch.

I understand, but the poison on steal should be in SA, not DA, where it belongs.

Being even more fair, I’d put it into the Trickery Specialization because it’s the one that “improves” the Steal skill and has some condition thingies on it.

The difficulty of that is that it would quickly lead to “Pick one, and only one Steal enhancement”
Which is, essentially, a de facto nerf.
Let’s not ask for more nerfs. We suffer enough as it is.

Poliator.7021:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.

This is not ideal, as it does not reduce target healing.
Poison on Steal is useful for many builds for that alone, since many builds do not actually have the Poison condition. My build would not, without Serpent’s Touch.

I understand, but the poison on steal should be in SA, not DA, where it belongs.

Being even more fair, I’d put it into the Trickery Specialization because it’s the one that “improves” the Steal skill and has some condition thingies on it.

That could work too because before the Trait changes, Trickery improves condition damage. Also it has access to Confusion on Steal.

Slowmelt.8547:

Poliator.7021:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Minor Adept – Serpent’s touch – Stealing causes vulnerability.

This is not ideal, as it does not reduce target healing.
Poison on Steal is useful for many builds for that alone, since many builds do not actually have the Poison condition. My build would not, without Serpent’s Touch.

I understand, but the poison on steal should be in SA, not DA, where it belongs.

Being even more fair, I’d put it into the Trickery Specialization because it’s the one that “improves” the Steal skill and has some condition thingies on it.

The difficulty of that is that it would quickly lead to “Pick one, and only one Steal enhancement”
Which is, essentially, a de facto nerf.
Let’s not ask for more nerfs. We suffer enough as it is.

Actually, it opens up a possiblity to have a steal enhancement from each trait line.

sry mate too late.. quitted → rolled mesmer → rekin faces → not even bothering.

#Thiefisdead (pity tho.. was and IS my fav class) but oh well. its better to rek faces then to be rekt. kthnxbai

As i see it, the deadly arts traitline is about traps, poison
and enhancing your non critical damage.

Critical Strikes about signets and enhancing your critical damage.

Shadow Arts is all about stealth and venoms.

Acrobatics about mobility and well timed evades.

And last but not least Trickery … Dirty Fighting, Tricks and Initiative.

I think the developers have a vision for every traitline and we should try to improve them within those given borders.

Turning everything upside down is most likely not something they will do.

Very nice to have a discussion going on. Keep the ideas and concerns coming.

Best regards!

Shinobi.3240:

As i see it, the deadly arts traitline is about traps, poison
and enhancing your non critical damage.

It shouldn’t really be about poison though. Weakness and vulnerability make sense, but not poison. DA should shred or overcome the target’s defenses, poison does neither.

I think poison fits really well into the deadly arts line.

• Your opponent feels vulnerable and weak because you poisened him/her.

• Poison reduces healing … which you could look at as “more effective damage you deal”.

• Vulnerability increases your damage aswell.

• And weakness also reduces the endurance regeneration of your opponent … so you will hit him more often = you deal more damage.

In fact they did a really good job on the deadly arts traitline when you look at it that way.

Best regards!

On the subject of Acro, what if the focus was more strongly on healing, initiative management, and movement skills as opposed to dodging, to keep it differentiated from the new line? So things like:

Fleet Shadow- When you Shadowstep or enter Stealth, you gain Super Speed (2S).

Assassin’s Equilibirum (replaces Swindler’s Equilibrium)- Hitting a foe with a movement skill grants 3 stability for 3 seconds (15S CD)

Assassin’s Reward- When you empty your initiative bar, heal yourself (ex- 3K + 0.5*healing power) and gain Blur for 2 seconds (15S CD)

Guarded Initiation- Hitting a foe with your third weapon skill removes 2 conditions from you (5S CD).

So the new spec line is all about the dodge and evade. How could we keep acro still on theme, make it viable without the spec, and keep it from being filled with redundant traits?

Range modifiers and as urug said, move speed.

I propose building acro around increasing range modifiers for melee abilities and utilities. For example, a trait that adds +distance to all leaps, a trait that allows steal to be used without a target as a shadowstep, a trait that adds +attack range to all melee weapons, a trait that adds more speed the less init you have, a trait that allows you to treat side strikes as rear strikes, a trait that increases the cone angle of melee weapons, a trait that increases the maximum number of targets for melee attacks, etc.

Alternately, what about ICD traits that interact with jump? Like blind when jumping over a target, additional jump height, granting the ability to jump over aoes, protection or stability when jumping, allowing attacks while jumping, additional damage while at higher elevation than the target, ICD evade on jump, etc. You could have gms be a choice between attacking while jumping, icd stability while jumping, or ICD jumping granting AoE immunity, maybe a minor with delayed heal for any fall damage taken (so you could effectively ignore any fall damage that wasn’t fatal) maybe a trait that deals damage or a condition when an attack against you is obstructed, and… IDK… other stuff focused around jumping and environmental interactions?

Maybe combine the two ideas to redesign the line around incorporating jump and extra range as a legit defensive mechanism?

Acrobatics – Movement performed with remarkable agility and ease.

So in my oppinion stuff like:

Regeneration, Freedom of movement, Stability, Inititative and Endurance Regeneration

would fit the traitline.

What else comes to your mind when you think about acrobatic?

Best regards!

I’ve been thinking about what defines—or should define—the Acrobatics traitline, especially now that Daredevil seems to be Acrobatics 2.0.

I’d start by adding a minor that gives 25% movespeed like Chronomancer has. This combined with some new dodge and swiftness traits would reinforce Acrobatics as our mobility line. Do some work on Shadow Arts and maybe one other as durability lines and we could start having some actual playstyle choices!

They could further reinforce this by toning down some of our base mobility, like Shortbow #5 in particular. I say this because I think Shortbow #5 is one of the two things genuinely handicapping our profession from a design standpoint (Initiative is the other, but that’s too integral to Thief to change).

This is what I personally think what should OBVIOUSLY DEFINE the Trait Lines by logic:

Deadly Arts = Should set the Focus on Conditions and Venoms
Critical Strikes = Should set the Focus on Critical Hits and Initiative
Shadow Arts = Should set the Focus on Stealth and Survival
Acrobatics = Should set Focus on Mobility and Combat
Trickery = Should set Focus on Steal and Signets
“Skirmisher” = Should set Focus on Self Defense and Control

Currently Acrobatics is a weak Traitline, that should have many of the things that currently the Elite Specialization should get.
The Thief Elite Specialization should provide its own new Gameplay Changer and not be like a simple Upgrade only of Acrobatics, making the Acrobatics like in itself obsolete, like an inferior version that is for itself aslone total crap and just only a complementary Traitline to make make with it the Elite Spec traitline first superb, because whyever ANet might have thought, givign all of these thigns with Acrobatics wpould be overpowered, so we basically split up Acrobatics into two Traitliones and have to nerf for that first Acrobatics, so that theres something left over, for why peopel would consider to take the Elite Spec later.

Perma Evade is bad for the Game, thats the reason why the Thief got nerfed practically for the last 3 years with every single god darn patch, until ANet found the next spots to nerf that were after Perma Dodge then Perma Stealth, then Attack Power and then Critical Damage and Hit Rate to Boon Duration lately and now we are at Dodges and get our nerfed Dodge Ability resold as a retort of an reinvented fixed wheel, that was first broken up by Anet into two parts, instead of just improving Acrobatics to the point, where it should be.
Giving actually the Elite Specializations its own unique new different gameplay mechanic, that changes out Steal with something new, like for example in my own thread mentioned “Risk Sense” woudl have been the right decision and basing the Traits that you get through the Elite Specialization Traitline onto that new feature, onto the new weapon and mainly onto the new Utility Skill Type and the DIFFERENT FOCUS that the Traitline should have, than to copy Acrobatics in a much superior kind of way… but I guess, the Dev responsible was just uninspired or clueless in how to exchange Steal with something different…

Dodging is a thief thing…Anet wants our Elite Spec too look like martial artistic Brawlers?
Then I say that the Gameplay and Traitline should be also proof for that.
A Brawler isn’t about agile dodging, a brawler is about waiting for the right opportunity to land the blow, that surpasses the defense of the enemy – like boxing, blocking, waiting for the right moment and counterattacking, thats how the whole Elite Spec should be – just with wielding the Staff.
Not that we practically have already a Weapon for dodging like crazy – the Shortbow with its on demand dodge.
The Staff Gameplay has to feel different, it shouldnt be just a felt copycat of any other Weapon Set with only some little different tweaks here n there.
The Staff should provide the Class things, that no other Weapon gives us yet and that thing would be Block-Counterattacks and Initial Moves to start Combo Chains with the help of the Gameplay Mechanic, that would replace Steal.

Oh just watched the POI of Daredevil ….
As it looks like we will not be bound to shortbow for good mobility anymore.
Everything looks really promising so far.
Great job.
Hope they will take a look at the core trait lines again when they have a bit less stress going on.

Best regards

Shinobi.3240:

Oh just watched the POI of Daredevil ….
As it looks like we will not be bound to shortbow for good mobility anymore.
Everything looks really promising so far.
Great job.
Hope they will take a look at the core trait lines again when they have a bit less stress going on.

Best regards

Still a bummer for me since I never really used the shortbow for mobility and rather for the evade but mostly for the blast finisher. I’d really like another blast finisher, even from pistol if needs be. Even with the new utilities along with the staff I’m still going to be bound to the short bow.

The evade on shortbow is a bit lackluster since they changed it.
Just curious —→
What did you use for mobility instead of shortbow?

Best regards