Guild Wars 2

Hey, I’m a nec since this match in wvw, I saw a thief with trap always stealthy, no ways to kill hims with staff or scepter area….
And of course, can’t be focus by any sigil or corrup skills, I have tried to escape with no result….

I have seen two guards/Ranger/Ele be killed like sh.. in some sec or mins. (And this is chars who can clean them easily..)

I understand stealthy is really important for Thief like mesmer but use and abuse the stealthy from trap + usefull like heal who give stealthy + combo D/P for perma stealthy…. is really unfair for other char in wvw.

I don’t know how to nerf to be not unfair with thief….. So I post this message to discuss on this, and maybe to be listen by developers….

I post too the build I think he or she use (not complete because I’m not a Genius and I don’t know the totally) :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQRAoa6IlsMh2mYzTgeOOkJK/W4D55QLcD69cKCAA-TVA7AAw+DAA-w

In YouTube I have seen this video and I’m pretty sure, it is like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELKKJ5PjQA

Here’s the build he was most likely using

Funny thing is, Necro is really good at killing the Ghost Thief – Staff especially. Look for the black powder, whilst walking up to it use Staff 3 and 5. Chilled to prolong cooldowns, feared so they can’t stack stealth anymore. They will get revealed very soon.

There has been, I joke not, about 20 posts within the past two weeks all over the forums discussing this – one is still going over at the WvW Subsection.

Okay didn’t see, I have post without seeing in other subject, my bad.

I have put many time the 4 of the staff on him and transfer some condi on him.

It is right when I have used the chill on him and he appears one time and one sec and after he disapears.

Maybe need some training but I see there is many post who think like me, it’s an unfair build when well played…

The two key ways for fighting Ghost Thief is reveal/stealth disruptor
Standing in the red black powder circle to make them reveal themselves and cc them.

These are the only ways to fight them effectively, now a way to get rid of this abusive play is for Anet to stop being lazy and redesign/balance out the Thief instead of nerf in everything into the ground and the results become these abusive troll builds.

Ways to eliminate these builds by changing thieves.

1. Have traps cause direct damage, enough to make traps be relevant and viable compared to other utilities.

2. Rebalance/Buff other trait lines to be more viable.

3. Spread out Survivability traits among other traitlines, which ties into number 2.

4. Redesign stealth completely.

*Or last but not least what every other class wants. Nerf everything Thief does and delete the class.

I have enought survivability with other class, why I have to add some for only one kind of one class. And which one?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vREQNBmWDbkjGasxObw4G4vxBuQBbzAYBopRbEtxteC+AA-TVyCABA8AAwR9FkvIAEqEMFdDXqCxy7PklyvpPCABAQAEGNzcmHdmH9olCAmpRA-w
I’m pretty sure, you will not seeing all condi ( from traps, steal and other) on you and say “Oh I Have a probleme, I have to put more survivability skill now because there is a ghost thief” (Of course this is too late).

Reveal, It would be great but on necro, I don’t see any skill with that. And I play sometimes with some class which didn’t have any skills with reveal

Red black powder circle =? (yeah english isn’t my first language and I didn’t understand this)

Add some damages on traps would be good but maybe it will be a too much punishement….

The second number of points I made were changes directly to thief not for other classes, sorry If that wasn’t clear enough.

The main way Ghost Thieves stay stealthed is using Black Powder which is one of the Pistol Skills and spamming Heart Seeker in it to stack stealth duration from the combo field, it leaves a red Aoe circle to enemies and has smoke in the middle of it, if you stand in it or put a minion in it, then he would hit you or the minion, causing him to reveal himself.

You can get Stealth Disruptor traps which need supply to be cause reveal in a large area. This was Anet wat of giving everyone reveal.

Okay, thanks for explain !!!

I think I will train myself because I’m sure there will be more ghost thief before anet does something……….

GrandPat.7916:

Okay, thanks for explain !!!

I think I will train myself because I’m sure there will be more ghost thief before anet does something……….

From any thief point of view this is tricky not saying the build is OP but the runes were made because a thief would never think of picking traps it honestly should have a trait, they removed the damage from traps for better synergy so nerfing the runes kills traps. On the other d/p is kind of the only competing set thief but anything works in WvW but nerfing that is out of the way.

So their choice seems to bring more reveal but they did forget about the rest of the weapon and combinations in the process. In short I doubt anything will directly happen to “ghost thief”.

The thing is though, the thief doesn’t even need the runes to do the Ghost Thief build it just adds alot of synergy, you could use more condi damage to take it a different route, would just need to be more mindful of stealth

If an Enginner uses stealth Gyro along with turrets when HOT released what will happen if a turret fires and he is stealthed?

When My Mesmer uses mass invisibilty and stealthed for 7.5 seconds what happens when one of my clones or phantasms inflicts damage?

Traps work the same way. the thief is not doing the damge. The TRAP Is. Just as the mesmer is not doing the damge the CLONE/phantasm is and just as the Turret will be doing damage and not the engineer.

Phantasms don’t break stealth except when you shatter them iirc.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Phantasms don’t break stealth except when you shatter them iirc.

Well yes, but the point is all of this talk of adding damage to traps so they break stealth because “no one should be able to do damage while stealthed” always seems to apply to thieves only.

The number of thieves I see in WvW drops because so many find it just too hard to stay alive and when someone does find a way , the qq to nerf starts up again. It gets old.

Traps were not used previously because they break stealth. Going back to that means they will not be used and no contrary what some here claim a trapper thief can not “permastealth”. he needs utilities like SR and in particular the d/p weaponset to do so which is not really a weaponset for a condition build meaning all he has is those traps. It very one dimensional gameplay and I see it as a fad

Condition wise a trap thief can only lay on three stacks of bleed and one stack of poison from their traps. tripwire does not add conditions and neither does any other. If people can not handle this amount of bleeds coming in , even if multiple needle traps used, they should rethink their build.

Several more sources of reveal come in HOT. There will be plenty of ways to deal with this ghost thief build. No further changes to traps are needed.

babazhook.6805:

If an Enginner uses stealth Gyro along with turrets when HOT released what will happen if a turret fires and he is stealthed?

When My Mesmer uses mass invisibilty and stealthed for 7.5 seconds what happens when one of my clones or phantasms inflicts damage?

Traps work the same way. the thief is not doing the damge. The TRAP Is. Just as the mesmer is not doing the damge the CLONE/phantasm is and just as the Turret will be doing damage and not the engineer.

Turret like phantasms can be killed before they deal too much damage and users appear after some sec

The ghost thief just doesn’t appear and trap can’t be killed by anything, this is the difference and what the great difference. I just try this char for one hour without opti stuff. And WTF, I killed all guy i have seeing…. It’s looking better than Pu pre-Patch…..

babazhook.6805

Condition wise a trap thief can only lay on three stacks of bleed and one stack of poison from their traps. tripwire does not add conditions and neither does any other. If people can not handle this amount of bleeds coming in , even if multiple needle traps used, they should rethink their build.

The majority of bleedstacks comes usually from caltrops. The most dangerous thing from the needle traps is actually the immob. If you stand in the caltrops and can’t clear the immob, you are pretty much dead.
Steal applies some condis too (confusion + poison).

GrandPat.7916:

Hey, I’m a nec since this match in wvw, I saw a thief with trap always stealthy, no ways to kill hims with staff or scepter area….
And of course, can’t be focus by any sigil or corrup skills, I have tried to escape with no result….

I have seen two guards/Ranger/Ele be killed like sh.. in some sec or mins. (And this is chars who can clean them easily..)

I understand stealthy is really important for Thief like mesmer but use and abuse the stealthy from trap + usefull like heal who give stealthy + combo D/P for perma stealthy…. is really unfair for other char in wvw.

I don’t know how to nerf to be not unfair with thief….. So I post this message to discuss on this, and maybe to be listen by developers….

I post too the build I think he or she use (not complete because I’m not a Genius and I don’t know the totally) :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQRAoa6IlsMh2mYzTgeOOkJK/W4D55QLcD69cKCAA-TVA7AAw+DAA-w

In YouTube I have seen this video and I’m pretty sure, it is like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELKKJ5PjQA

nerf the runes problem solved?

tbh with you, if people play like this they are just terrible players..
what is more fun then killing something that cant even fight back? i mean no offense but if 50 people would line them self up in WvW waiting to be killed without fighting back you have same effect..
you might aswell go do some PvE for people using this tactic because mobs are just as easy as playing in this style…

but ye nerf the rune it self problem solved..

Tried stealth trapper thief. I still don’t understand the hype. It’s a guaranteed win if you catch someone by surprise who isn’t running anti condi but it’s basically impossible to kill them the second time around when they’re running condi clear. The CDs are too long to apply enough pressure and eventually you just get stealth trapped if your enemy decides to try and kill you instead of running. Either you kill them with the initial condi burst or they clear it and walk away. If you’re going condi, standard P/D is infinitely better IMO, but I can see how trapper is cheesy.

reddie.5861:

GrandPat.7916:

Hey, I’m a nec since this match in wvw, I saw a thief with trap always stealthy, no ways to kill hims with staff or scepter area….
And of course, can’t be focus by any sigil or corrup skills, I have tried to escape with no result….

I have seen two guards/Ranger/Ele be killed like sh.. in some sec or mins. (And this is chars who can clean them easily..)

I understand stealthy is really important for Thief like mesmer but use and abuse the stealthy from trap + usefull like heal who give stealthy + combo D/P for perma stealthy…. is really unfair for other char in wvw.

I don’t know how to nerf to be not unfair with thief….. So I post this message to discuss on this, and maybe to be listen by developers….

I post too the build I think he or she use (not complete because I’m not a Genius and I don’t know the totally) :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQRAoa6IlsMh2mYzTgeOOkJK/W4D55QLcD69cKCAA-TVA7AAw+DAA-w

In YouTube I have seen this video and I’m pretty sure, it is like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELKKJ5PjQA

nerf the runes problem solved?

tbh with you, if people play like this they are just terrible players..
what is more fun then killing something that cant even fight back? i mean no offense but if 50 people would line them self up in WvW waiting to be killed without fighting back you have same effect..
you might aswell go do some PvE for people using this tactic because mobs are just as easy as playing in this style…

but ye nerf the rune it self problem solved..

Of course, it would be too ez to kill someone who stand up and no reply. But I said, I tried to counter that…. I fight vs him like 3/4min before it’s kill me. Other guys, just be killed in some secs…. And I have killed one, just some sec back…. ( I think you can see the difference ). I’m not the basic noob who be kill in some sec. I have many time did 1vs3 and farm sfr or piken, désolation…. (with other char, like mesmer or thief, you can do easily some 1vs4/5 now)

I’m just shock of this abused build

With right duel in fight against thief (condi or other builds….), I have always a chance to kill them, they appear enought to know where they are etc….

yeah was offensed of your message, I’m not the best player but I have ever done enought roaming in WvW to know some tips vs some guys….

Nerf the Rune would be not really a great idea, cause it will touch to ranger, guard too, they can’t stack enought of stealthy for perma…. And it would be a punishement for them cause of ghost thief….

Maybe put some damage on Tripwire + ambush would be fine. Or why not put less bleeding on Needle trap. Or nerf trapper respite….. Thief isn’t alone in the game

Grand Prat what you suggest are just Nerfs, nerfs are what put Thieves in this state, I hope Anet realizes the State of thieves because of these Gimmicky builds, which have lots of built in counter to them if players weren’t lazy,or used them, all classes have varying access to forced reveal, all classes can stand in the black powder aoe, all classes have access to condi cleanse, if the players use the mechanics Anet gave them instead of choosing the “better” option for utility, if you are dying to this build apparently it’s not the better option, yes I find this build pointless but Anet knew exactly how this spec would interact in game since you know it’s the reason they took direct damage from traps.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Grand Prat what you suggest are just Nerfs, nerfs are what put Thieves in this state, I hope Anet realizes the State of thieves because of these Gimmicky builds, which have lots of built in counter to them if players weren’t lazy,or used them, all classes have varying access to forced reveal, all classes can stand in the black powder aoe, all classes have access to condi cleanse, if the players use the mechanics Anet gave them instead of choosing the “better” option for utility, if you are dying to this build apparently it’s not the better option, yes I find this build pointless but Anet knew exactly how this spec would interact in game since you know it’s the reason they took direct damage from traps.

think saying one should stand in blackpowder is quite easy to say but harder to do..

first of all u dont know where thief is thus u might be looking wrong way and react to late not all classes have ports etc.
second of all thief is quite mobile (which is good) so he could gain distance far quicker then you can prolly so like i said getting into blackpowder sounds easy but its alot harder when u dont know where to look.. yes on the ground lil red circle i know i know but when im in hide you have no clue where im running too u dont know where to look u have to scan a whole lot of land to find my lil circle..

as for the guy who answered me i didnt say how to kill these thiefs, i just said people who run this build are in my eyes just terrible players who are not looking for a good fight but want to win at all cost, which means im pointing at the THIEF :P not the players who die from the thief..

No nerfing the rune does not solve the problem because that nerfs 2 other classes that are not the issue.

thief traps deserve the nerf and that’s the end of it.

reddie.5861:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Grand Prat what you suggest are just Nerfs, nerfs are what put Thieves in this state, I hope Anet realizes the State of thieves because of these Gimmicky builds, which have lots of built in counter to them if players weren’t lazy,or used them, all classes have varying access to forced reveal, all classes can stand in the black powder aoe, all classes have access to condi cleanse, if the players use the mechanics Anet gave them instead of choosing the “better” option for utility, if you are dying to this build apparently it’s not the better option, yes I find this build pointless but Anet knew exactly how this spec would interact in game since you know it’s the reason they took direct damage from traps.

think saying one should stand in blackpowder is quite easy to say but harder to do..

first of all u dont know where thief is thus u might be looking wrong way and react to late not all classes have ports etc.
second of all thief is quite mobile (which is good) so he could gain distance far quicker then you can prolly so like i said getting into blackpowder sounds easy but its alot harder when u dont know where to look.. yes on the ground lil red circle i know i know but when im in hide you have no clue where im running too u dont know where to look u have to scan a whole lot of land to find my lil circle..

as for the guy who answered me i didnt say how to kill these thiefs, i just said people who run this build are in my eyes just terrible players who are not looking for a good fight but want to win at all cost, which means im pointing at the THIEF :P not the players who die from the thief..

I WvW on 3 classes my Guard, Mes and thief even on my Medi Guard I have no issues with countering the Ghost Thief by standing in his BS aoe, and Guardian is the most Mobility deficient classes Gw2 has to offer, yes it can get annoying and takes attention to detail to fight Ghost Thieves but it’s possible, yeah thief mobility is good. But it’s not all that hard and most classes have ways to aoe cc/knock back/ fear which also work well to get the Thief out of the BS aoe which can cause h to reveal if he was running low on stealth.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

babazhook.6805

Condition wise a trap thief can only lay on three stacks of bleed and one stack of poison from their traps. tripwire does not add conditions and neither does any other. If people can not handle this amount of bleeds coming in , even if multiple needle traps used, they should rethink their build.

The majority of bleedstacks comes usually from caltrops. The most dangerous thing from the needle traps is actually the immob. If you stand in the caltrops and can’t clear the immob, you are pretty much dead.
Steal applies some condis too (confusion + poison).

Stealth and Immob have nothing to do with one another.

If I am immobed in a necros wells and have no way of breaking that Immob I am dead.
If I am immobed in a rangers traps and can not break out of it I am dead. If i am immobbed in AOE cast by an Ele I am dead if I have no way of breaking it. None of these involve stealth.

Throwing in other sources of conditions does not make the argument that trappers runes need to be nerfed, traps need to be nerfed or that stealth needs more nerfing.

Caltrops have always been usable from stealth.

All I need to do as a thief is stack two of these traps atop one another.

You step in them you are imobbed. I steal to you using HIDDEN thief loading on poison and confusion and remaining stealthed. I drop on one more or two more of these traps and drop caltrops. Panic strik kicks in or perhaps I have devourers. A thief has loads of access to Immobs. If you have access to only one Immob breaker in your build and fight a thief who has 5+ you are in trouble whether he stealths or not.

The same outcome is accomplished whether after I drop those traps I am revealed or not. You are standing in my caltrops Immobbed.

I can do this wothout trappers runes. I can do this without "traps revealing on being triggered’. What is happening here is people are asking for a further nerf to the thief which will not address their issue so when they will keep dying it then becomes.

More nerfs to stealth.

I have encountered a few of these theives in WvW. There are not as many as people claim. TI have yet to die to one on any of my classes. The problem is being overstated just as always has been the case with thieves and stealth.

vespers.1759:

No nerfing the rune does not solve the problem because that nerfs 2 other classes that are not the issue.

thief traps deserve the nerf and that’s the end of it.

If it has damage on trigger added to it the entire problem is solved.

bettadenu.5483:

vespers.1759:

No nerfing the rune does not solve the problem because that nerfs 2 other classes that are not the issue.

thief traps deserve the nerf and that’s the end of it.

If it has damage on trigger added to it the entire problem is solved.

Yep, this is what I’ve been saying all along. It’s the solution that makes the most sense no matter how much thieves claim they need stealth for defense and that adding diret damage will make traps useless.

@ Vesper

The best fix is to redesign stealth and the Thief class, what you are proposing won’t fix the issue in the least, it will provide a bandaid. Most thieves don’t even like the state of stealth but since 80% of their survivability is in stealth they defend it against cries for nerfs to thieve skills and traits, if you want a fix Anet needs to get rid of their crap stealth mechanic put in a better stealth mechanic and re design/ balance out thief Survivability.

The suggestion to put damage when a trap triggers to force a Reveal sickens me because it pulls some very legitimate builds down in flames just to get at one gimmicky troll build that isn’t even very good.

Yes, I agree that it should not be possible to kill without ever leaving stealth. That’s pretty cheesy. But your “solution” is worse than the problem.

Please stop suggesting that ArenaNet nerf easily counterable gimmick builds that aren’t even usable in SPvP. They are clumsy at best with their balance changes, so any potential nerf would probably further mess up legitimate Thief builds.

vespers.1759:

bettadenu.5483:

vespers.1759:

No nerfing the rune does not solve the problem because that nerfs 2 other classes that are not the issue.

thief traps deserve the nerf and that’s the end of it.

If it has damage on trigger added to it the entire problem is solved.

Yep, this is what I’ve been saying all along. It’s the solution that makes the most sense no matter how much thieves claim they need stealth for defense and that adding diret damage will make traps useless.

Just making all thief traps apply damage alone would fix the ghost thief problem. However, it would also leave thief traps quite weak without some buffs in compensation, which isn’t good either.

Needle Trap is the main condition applying thief trap currently. It’s also really good for forcing someone to stand in caltrops for even more bleed stacks and cripple. Tripwire is also good for making someone stand in caltrops, but it doesn’t directly apply any damaging conditions itself, except possibly when taken with the Pressure Striking trait. These are the only two thief traps that need some direct damage added to them to prevent thieves from applying lots of conditions without having to exit stealth. But they also need a few buffs to compensate. Here are my suggestions below:

• Needle Trap should have some direct damage added to it when it’s triggered. The number of poison stacks inflicted should be increased from 1 to 3 to compensate.

• Tripwire should have some direct damage added as well (probably a decently strong hit instead of a weak hit like Needle Trap). Tripwire should additionally apply 10 stacks of vulnerability for 5-10 seconds when it’s triggered to help make it a bit stronger, for both power and condition builds.

• Shadow Trap and Ambush are fine having no direct damage. They don’t apply any conditions or hint at any kind of pain being inflicted by the traps themselves. You don’t have to worry about a thief killing you from stealth without ever exiting it with these.

vespers.1759:

No nerfing the rune does not solve the problem because that nerfs 2 other classes that are not the issue.

thief traps deserve the nerf and that’s the end of it.

I never thought I would see the day where traps are asked to be nerfed.The runes were designed as band-aid specifically for thief’s traps the performance of the other classes traps doesn’t completely rely on the runes.

The Nerf Wish List would never run out fuel eh Zero?

Oddly the traps and runes are fine. When used with Caltrops on dodge and D/P things get a bit out of control.

And then the traps getting damage removed was a bandaid for thieves not using the runes or traps, it’s a vicious cycle of lazy balancing.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And then the traps getting damage removed was a bandaid for thieves not using the runes or traps, it’s a vicious cycle of lazy balancing.

With trapper runes coming to PvP I doubt they will nerf either d/p is more likely if they are planning a nerf that is so we can wait for staff.

I’m still waiting for CiS to go back to master tier.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@ Vesper

The best fix is to redesign stealth and the Thief class, what you are proposing won’t fix the issue in the least, it will provide a bandaid. Most thieves don’t even like the state of stealth but since 80% of their survivability is in stealth they defend it against cries for nerfs to thieve skills and traits, if you want a fix Anet needs to get rid of their crap stealth mechanic put in a better stealth mechanic and re design/ balance out thief Survivability.

Obviously I want a redesign too but this is GW2. There will be no redesign so there’s no point in even bothering to discuss it. We have to deal with the way things are, not what they should be.

vespers.1759:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@ Vesper

The best fix is to redesign stealth and the Thief class, what you are proposing won’t fix the issue in the least, it will provide a bandaid. Most thieves don’t even like the state of stealth but since 80% of their survivability is in stealth they defend it against cries for nerfs to thieve skills and traits, if you want a fix Anet needs to get rid of their crap stealth mechanic put in a better stealth mechanic and re design/ balance out thief Survivability.

Obviously I want a redesign too but this is GW2. There will be no redesign so there’s no point in even bothering to discuss it. We have to deal with the way things are, not what they should be.

Sadly I find myself agreeing with you on this, no matter how many times the whole community has asked for a redesign they will never do it. And it’s putting off alot of players.