Guild Wars 2

This post is from a PvP perspective yes but it’s still relative to PvE.

Now let me start this post off by saying by no means are we weak, we are a strong profession in our area which is dealing damage and escaping. That doesn’t mean we don’t have broken or nearly useless feats which every profession does, I’d just like to shed some light on them.

Deadly Arts -
I. Back Fighting (50% damage while downed) -
Lets face it the thief has the weakest downed state in the game as far as damage or surviving goes, due to the complaints during beta about how often thieves managed to escape. We already have a low chance of killing someone in a downed vs downed state so this feat really doesn’t help and pales in comparison with the other traits like mugging.

II. Corrosive Traps (5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds when hit by a trap utility) - Now this is almost where it needs to be as a feat, the problem is traps are the route less traveled because they function on a long term basis and need to be preloaded. There’s a possibility that you won’t actually be around the person caught in the trap in PvP. Traps also do not compliment the play style of the thief in which you kill a target quick and escape. If this feat made the vulnerability lasts for 15 seconds AND caused poison for 15 seconds it may make traps a little more appealing for combat.

V. Potent Poison (Increases Poison duration by 33%) -
Poison will almost never reach its max duration even without this feat due to removal and is weak to begin with, damage wise. Change this feat to either increase all VENOM skills by 33% or increase Condition Duration by 20% so it may also apply to bleeds and other random effects.

VII. Improvisation (Stealing recharges all skills of one type, randmoly) - “Random is never good, and rarely fun, especially when there’s a chance that you’ll get no effect. Should Imo be replaced entirely or refresh two different utility types that way there’s never a chance to miss entirely.”
Can’t believe I forgot to mention this one, this is something that belongs on a Mesmer. The thief community made it clear that random wasn’t appreciated when steal was in its early stages. This needs to be completely scraped and replaced, if you want traps to be viable this would be a good spot to put something to help trap builds.

Critical Strikes -
I. Furious Retaliation (Gain Fury for 10 seconds when your target reaches 50%, 45 second cooldown) -
The main and only issue with this is the 45 second cooldown. That is way to long for fury and consideirng most people with a crit build are already around 45%~ crit chance it’s laughable to choose this feat amongst anything else in the critical tree. The simple fix is lowering the cooldown to 15 seconds or removing the cooldown, but that could leave someone with perma fury with the right target planning. Perhaps when you deal 50% damage of your targets max HP to your target, you gain fury. No cooldown and this would require that you actually damage the person you have targeted.

IX. Combo Critical Chance (Dual Skills have a +5% chance to crit) -
Now the only weapon this actually compliments is dual pistols skill Unload. It’s meant to do phyiscal damage and giving yourself a bit more chance to crit can help a little but not by much. You’d be better off taking the quickness buff with any spec. The problem it has with the s/d and d/d is that these abilities aren’t meant for physical damage, d/d is meant for bleed applying and s/d is meant for boon removal. You aren’t really aiming to have them hit harder just do their respective secondary effects better. It would be nice if this feat got a little more complex and gave each dual skill an additional effect, perhaps applying a extra 2 bleeds with Death Blossom and removing 2 boons instead of 1 on Flanking Strike.

XII. Hidden Killer (100% crit chance in stealth) -
Now I know beta players were grateful for the boost from a flat 50% crit chance to 100% crit chance change, but let’s face it, you are only going to land ONE hit from stealth and with a crit build a vast majority of the time it’s a critical hit WITHOUT this feat. I know this would be highly debated as to whether or not this actually underpowered but if you can only land one hit from stealth and you’re probably already sitting on 50% crit chance you are much better off with Executioners consistent damage boost. One thing that could make this more appealing is a critical damage boost while in stealth so that the first attack you do which breaks stealth and reveals you hits harder than normal. A 25% critical damage boost on top of 100% crit chance while in stealth seems good and keep in mind it’s only going to work on a single attack.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Underpowered-Traits-and-Skills/88747

Looks like you’re talking about a pure pvp perspective.
I’m going to have to say that in PvE back fighting is pretty helpful. The extra damage can help you get out of a rough spot when downed.

I agree with Corrosive Traps. I haven’t used it nor do I see any real use for it.

I think Furious Retaliation is pretty good. Obviously in a fast paced pvp environment 45 seconds is a long time. But it’s a solid 20% crit for 10 seconds. Combine that with things like executioner (20% more dmg when target below 50% hp) and it looks a lot more appealing, don’t you think?

Thieves have the most hilarious harrassment downed state in the game for PvP. I regularly see foes attempt to finish me three times before they finally get a chance to actually do it between teleporting and stealthing while downed.

Most classes are just totally useless “dohh you got me” stuff.

Though, yes, the trait isn’t very good for PvP.

Ragnel.5218:

I think Furious Retaliation is pretty good. Obviously in a fast paced pvp environment 45 seconds is a long time. But it’s a solid 20% crit for 10 seconds. Combine that with things like executioner (20% more dmg when target below 50% hp) and it looks a lot more appealing, don’t you think?

I cleared up the perspective a little, I play both PvE and PvP and have done dungeons and completed my story quests a while ago. I think of it mostly from a PvP perspective though so you were right about that.

In comparison to everything else along the first tier of Critical Strikes I heavily disagree, if I wanted crit I’d be much better off with Side Strike (flanking crit chance 7%) in PvE and PvP. Smoke screen while downed is great. If you are running the signet one shot build then Signets of power is also good.

lethlora.1320:

Thieves have the most hilarious harrassment downed state in the game for PvP. I regularly see foes attempt to finish me three times before they finally get a chance to actually do it between teleporting and stealthing while downed.

Most classes are just totally useless “dohh you got me” stuff.

Though, yes, the trait isn’t very good for PvP.

Yea we can stall for a long time but it depends on your goal, I rather not sit there and teleport away and stealth if death is invertible. I’m not actually going to escape or win the downed fight unless a teammate is nearby and it only takes a hour of playing to realize that when the thief stealths they are in the same spot and you should AoE it. Our 3 is worse than any other classes, save for engineer, if you ask me.

Flanking strike is pretty terrible compared to our other options. I don’t know why someone would use S/D. And having any weapon setup be bad isn’t so great when we already have such an incredibly limited weapon selection.

Vargs.6234:

Flanking strike is pretty terrible compared to our other options. I don’t know why someone would use S/D. And having any weapon setup be bad isn’t so great when we already have such an incredibly limited weapon selection.

It’s actually not that bad, my hard counter to heart seeker spam infact. It’s ability to land on a moving target is a little iffy though, it seems to evade me away from the enemy rather than behind them.

Here’s my list of under performing traits with suggestions on how to fix them:

Improvisation- Random is never good, and rarely fun, especially when there’s a chance that you’ll get no effect. Should Imo be replaced entirely or refresh two different utility types that way there’s never a chance to miss entirely.

Potent Poison- Just seems weak. Would be much better if it made bleeds last longer, as poison is already incredibly easy to stack, and since it stacks in duration more is rarely needed. Change to 25% longer bleed duration

Corrosive Traps- As you said its very underwhelming. I believe the idea is to KD or immobilize someone with a trap, then spike them down. But this is highly unrealistic and 5 stacks isn’t enough to make a huge difference. I suggest you combine this trait with Master trapper.

Back Fighting- Horrible trait, In PvE your gonna die as a thief if you fall into the downed state anyway, since they automatically follow you when u tele away or continue to attack you while stealthed (which is incredibly annoying) and in PvP you’ll be stomped before you can make any use of it. Replace entirely or combine with Concealed defeat.

Hidden Killer- I actually love this trait quite a bit, but i personally feel it would be better off in Shadow arts tree. This way you could run a 4% crit chance build but still be able to crit from stealth. Rather then having 50%+ crit base then using an entire grandmaster trait for a 50-30% upgrade every ~3 seconds. It also doesn’t fit well with Sidestrike.

Concealed Defeat- see back fighting

Shadow’s Embrace- I’d like to see this changed to losing a condition when u ENTER stealth. While waiting 3 seconds to remove that crucial 15 bleed stack, you can very often die. Also in a PvP setting, stealthing for 3 seconds while guarding a point is enough time for them to neutralize the point..

Master of Deception- Average trait should have a secondary effect tho. Maybe gain one initiative every time you use a deception, or gain a ~3 second fury buff each time you use a deception. (as most of them are stealth types this would give you higher “backstab potential”

Fleet of Foot- Think it should be Cripple and Chilled, Thieves are known to be extremely mobile and it would make since if you could remove both of the “slowing” effects, especially since its the accrobatics tree.

Sleight of Hand- For a grandmaster trait it seems a bit weak, i understand its for an interrupt, but often KD’s and stuns last longer then one second, so should this. 2 sec KD, or a 2 1/2 second daze.

Trickster- Needs a secondary effect. reducing the CD by X seconds per trick would be kinda cool.

SwickHobo.5096:

Here’s my list of under performing traits with suggestions on how to fix them:

Improvisation- Random is never good, and rarely fun, especially when there’s a chance that you’ll get no effect. Should Imo be replaced entirely or refresh two different utility types that way there’s never a chance to miss entirely.

Potent Poison- Just seems weak. Would be much better if it made bleeds last longer, as poison is already incredibly easy to stack, and since it stacks in duration more is rarely needed. Change to 25% longer bleed duration

Corrosive Traps- As you said its very underwhelming. I believe the idea is to KD or immobilize someone with a trap, then spike them down. But this is highly unrealistic and 5 stacks isn’t enough to make a huge difference. I suggest you combine this trait with Master trapper.

Back Fighting- Horrible trait, In PvE your gonna die as a thief if you fall into the downed state anyway, since they automatically follow you when u tele away or continue to attack you while stealthed (which is incredibly annoying) and in PvP you’ll be stomped before you can make any use of it. Replace entirely or combine with Concealed defeat.

Hidden Killer- I actually love this trait quite a bit, but i personally feel it would be better off in Shadow arts tree. This way you could run a 4% crit chance build but still be able to crit from stealth. Rather then having 50%+ crit base then using an entire grandmaster trait for a 50-30% upgrade every ~3 seconds. It also doesn’t fit well with Sidestrike.

Concealed Defeat- see back fighting

Shadow’s Embrace- I’d like to see this changed to losing a condition when u ENTER stealth. While waiting 3 seconds to remove that crucial 15 bleed stack, you can very often die. Also in a PvP setting, stealthing for 3 seconds while guarding a point is enough time for them to neutralize the point..

Master of Deception- Average trait should have a secondary effect tho. Maybe gain one initiative every time you use a deception, or gain a ~3 second fury buff each time you use a deception. (as most of them are stealth types this would give you higher “backstab potential”

Fleet of Foot- Think it should be Cripple and Chilled, Thieves are known to be extremely mobile and it would make since if you could remove both of the “slowing” effects, especially since its the accrobatics tree.

Sleight of Hand- For a grandmaster trait it seems a bit weak, i understand its for an interrupt, but often KD’s and stuns last longer then one second, so should this. 2 sec KD, or a 2 1/2 second daze.

Trickster- Needs a secondary effect. reducing the CD by X seconds per trick would be kinda cool.

Going to add some of these really good points to my post, but Shadows Embrace does do that last I checked. It should remove 2 conditions one at the start and one at the very end if you have 3 second stealth.

i’m gonna have to vote for Assassin’s Reward (gain health for each point of initiative spent) here actually. you’d think it would be incredibly useful because we’re constantly spending initiative, but the amount of health gained is absolutely tiny. much less than even having a Regeneration boon active.

maybe this trait scales well with +healing on your gear, i’ve never tried that, so its possible i just haven’t unlocked the full potential here. but as is i have no desire to use this. i find that gaining Regeneration (from Shadow Protector trait, for example) to be much more useful. it also scales with +healing gear but just seems more effective in general.

Never imagined that I’d run out of space lol woopsie, should’ve reserved. Oh well. Yea Assassins reward is a little lack luster along with any of our regeneration feats as thieves tend to not have much healing power. Stealthing allies and giving regeneration is weak, gaining regeneration to counter bleed is a good idea but only if the cooldown on the ability is lowered to around 10 seconds.

i actually don’t find Shadow Protector weak at all. its downright good, even without alot of +healing stats. Regen is just a powerful boon even at the baseline. Gaining regen to counter bleeding is fine as well. I think the cooldown on that is 45 seconds. more than adequate. the trait is not intended to make you regen permanently (which it would do with a 10 second cooldown on a 10 second length regen). its supposed to help you survive bursts of bleed stacks. it does that job already.

Shadows embrace is so much better than the bleed + regen even if you only have 1 stealth skill. No one is limited to not being able to stack bleed in a 45 second period, you’re barely buying time with the feat as it is. Maybe if it remove the 5 stacks on top of giving regen it would be more appealing and regen really isn’t that strong at all. One of the weaker boons imo, wouldn’t waste a trait point to give 5 seconds of regeneration. It can work well with shadow refuge since it repeatedly stacks you with instances of stealth but that’s it. Blinding powder is pretty much your only other possible team stealth unless you manage to get a entire team to stand inside of a smoke screen and cluster bomb it.

I don’t want to comment on most of this, as I largely don’t care about ‘nerfs and buffs’. But this point drives me bonkers:

Random isn’t fun

This is flat wrong. Random is very, very fun. It’s why slot machines exist, and in fact dominate most casinos. It’s why Roulette and Craps exist, despite eating money from the players.

Random is quite fun. Please don’t go on a witch-hunt to get fun taken out of the game because you don’t find it useful. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of other choices in that exact slot that you’d rather take, so please take them and let scrubs like me to take our “bad” but fun choices.

icbat.3019:

I don’t want to comment on most of this, as I largely don’t care about ‘nerfs and buffs’. But this point drives me bonkers:

Random isn’t fun

This is flat wrong. Random is very, very fun. It’s why slot machines exist, and in fact dominate most casinos. It’s why Roulette and Craps exist, despite eating money from the players.

Random is quite fun. Please don’t go on a witch-hunt to get fun taken out of the game because you don’t find it useful. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of other choices in that exact slot that you’d rather take, so please take them and let scrubs like me to take our “bad” but fun choices.

He said it’s “Never good, and rarely fun”. Not really much to touch here since you got his quote wrong to an extent that the reply isn’t really relevant but you are the “rarely” as you seem to recognize so there’s nothing for you to defend. lol

Also as I mentioned the thief community made it clear that “random is not appreciated”. Hence why when you steal from someone now you get the same thing in PvP.

@ hidden killer

Play norn thief outside of sPvP.

Snow leopard has an abuseable skill that gives them stealth on short cool down.

You won’t need precision… just damage. watch stuff die

Tigger.8035:

@ hidden killer

Play norn thief outside of sPvP.

Snow leopard has an abuseable skill that gives them stealth on short cool down.

You won’t need precision… just damage. watch stuff die

I don’t get what you’re saying, do you mean team with a Ranger that is using the snow leopard in the open world? Even with a short cooldown it’s going to be a minimum of 3 seconds before you stealth again thanks to revealed. Could be useful but doesn’t sound like a trick I’d do personally. My crit chance is solid already.

Uh Become the snow leopard is a racial elite skill for norn.

It changes them into a snowl eopard and swaps out their weapon skills

Combo Critical Chance is probably better for PVE than flanking critical chance trait, at least if you’re solo where mobs are almost always facing you, but there are better traits overall in the line such as quickness and executioner (it also benefits sword/pistol as the main attack you use in sword pistol is your dual attack anyway).

Also random is very fun. It’s one of the more fun aspects of the thief class. That’s what makes steal fun, you don’t know exactly what you’re going to get when you step in, and sometimes it can be something amazing like an axe or ectoplasm. When your quickness trait procs, that’s random, and when it happens right before an unload or pistol whip or death blossom that’s pretty exciting.

Devildoc.6721:

Combo Critical Chance is probably better for PVE than flanking critical chance trait, at least if you’re solo where mobs are almost always facing you, but there are better traits overall in the line such as quickness and executioner (it also benefits sword/pistol as the main attack you use in sword pistol is your dual attack anyway).

Also random is very fun. It’s one of the more fun aspects of the thief class. That’s what makes steal fun, you don’t know exactly what you’re going to get when you step in, and sometimes it can be something amazing like an axe or ectoplasm. When your quickness trait procs, that’s random, and when it happens right before an unload or pistol whip or death blossom that’s pretty exciting.

The first part could be true but with immobilize and CnD I usually end up behind the mobs, even then im not going to spam flanking strike on them or use DB for the chance to crit.

In PvP you know exactly what you’re going to get, ectoplasm seems like the worst to me. Having variation makes it fun and the fact that it teleports, at least for me. I could live without the random chance in PvE but even then it’s a couple of set things based on the mob you steal from.

Mange.8324:

Devildoc.6721:

Combo Critical Chance is probably better for PVE than flanking critical chance trait, at least if you’re solo where mobs are almost always facing you, but there are better traits overall in the line such as quickness and executioner (it also benefits sword/pistol as the main attack you use in sword pistol is your dual attack anyway).

Also random is very fun. It’s one of the more fun aspects of the thief class. That’s what makes steal fun, you don’t know exactly what you’re going to get when you step in, and sometimes it can be something amazing like an axe or ectoplasm. When your quickness trait procs, that’s random, and when it happens right before an unload or pistol whip or death blossom that’s pretty exciting.

The first part could be true but with immobilize and CnD I usually end up behind the mobs, even then im not going to spam flanking strike on them or use DB for the chance to crit.

In PvP you know exactly what you’re going to get, ectoplasm seems like the worst to me. Having variation makes it fun and the fact that it teleports, at least for me. I could live without the random chance in PvE but even then it’s a couple of set things based on the mob you steal from.

Getting all the boons at once is the worst?

for me the worst stolen skill is shoot rifle (due to self knockback/stun), and use staff

Most of the rest are useful for stealth, condition causing, boons/heals, or cc, or damage in the case of axes.

icbat.3019:

I don’t want to comment on most of this, as I largely don’t care about ‘nerfs and buffs’. But this point drives me bonkers:

Random isn’t fun

This is flat wrong. Random is very, very fun. It’s why slot machines exist, and in fact dominate most casinos. It’s why Roulette and Craps exist, despite eating money from the players.

Random is quite fun. Please don’t go on a witch-hunt to get fun taken out of the game because you don’t find it useful. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of other choices in that exact slot that you’d rather take, so please take them and let scrubs like me to take our “bad” but fun choices.

Its fun when random adds excitement or addiction. In many cases with this game, its frustrating.

For example, im in a fight with some destroyers, I am low on health, my heal is on cooldown and my dodges have been used up. There is only one destroyer left at this point. I cant steal from the destroyer because 9/10 times i just get a volcanic rock, which has no effect on them.

However, there is a nearby….. ettin (first thing that popped in my head).
They are slow, easily avoidable until my stuff is off cooldown, and they usually have those stun clubs when you steal from them. IF i manage to get a club from it, I can knock down the destroyer and finish it off before it sets me on fire (thus killing me).

So I steal from the ettin hoping for a club to delay the destroyer…. what do i get???? A Tooth.

Result:

I go down. And to top it all off, these mobs are commonly found in caves.
Guess what, downed camera SUCKS in confined spaces, and there is little room to use a downed teleport + stealth combo to get out of combat and heal up.

Random sucks. It works well for casinos because its part of the thrill. In a game, I like to know that one of the main highlights of my class is a useful, consistent tool.

Imagine what would happen if guardian F1 F2 or F3 abilities had a chance for alternate effects (for example, what if the guardian heal had a chance to give a damage buff instead of a heal?)

Xaxxus.6719:

icbat.3019:

I don’t want to comment on most of this, as I largely don’t care about ‘nerfs and buffs’. But this point drives me bonkers:

Random isn’t fun

This is flat wrong. Random is very, very fun. It’s why slot machines exist, and in fact dominate most casinos. It’s why Roulette and Craps exist, despite eating money from the players.

Random is quite fun. Please don’t go on a witch-hunt to get fun taken out of the game because you don’t find it useful. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of other choices in that exact slot that you’d rather take, so please take them and let scrubs like me to take our “bad” but fun choices.

Its fun when random adds excitement or addiction. In many cases with this game, its frustrating.

For example, im in a fight with some destroyers, I am low on health, my heal is on cooldown and my dodges have been used up. There is only one destroyer left at this point. I cant steal from the destroyer because 9/10 times i just get a volcanic rock, which has no effect on them.

However, there is a nearby….. ettin (first thing that popped in my head).
They are slow, easily avoidable until my stuff is off cooldown, and they usually have those stun clubs when you steal from them. IF i manage to get a club from it, I can knock down the destroyer and finish it off before it sets me on fire (thus killing me).

So I steal from the ettin hoping for a club to delay the destroyer…. what do i get???? A Tooth.

Result:

I go down. And to top it all off, these mobs are commonly found in caves.
Guess what, downed camera SUCKS in confined spaces, and there is little room to use a downed teleport + stealth combo to get out of combat and heal up.

Random sucks. It works well for casinos because its part of the thrill. In a game, I like to know that one of the main highlights of my class is a useful, consistent tool.

Imagine what would happen if guardian F1 F2 or F3 abilities had a chance for alternate effects (for example, what if the guardian heal had a chance to give a damage buff instead of a heal?)

Let’s flip this around then.

I’m doing my story quest, so, I’m alone, with terrible NPC’s to help me, and I’m surrounded by risen in a closed in area,. I use my dagger storm, I dodge the incoming acid spits and get anked to a Risen that has a pull skill and another immobilizes me. I think I’m dead. I steal to get out of the immobilize at least and manage to steal a skull.

The skull gives me an aoe fear, just long enough for me to burn down the most dangerous mob (thanks to my random quickness on crit proccing) and let the NPC’s harass the others.

Now I’m excited because that random steal that could have given me a glob of gunk that would do very little to help me in that situation, got me something that bailed me out of a tight spot and helped me win. That’s pretty fun.

Devildoc.6721:

Mange.8324:

Devildoc.6721:

Combo Critical Chance is probably better for PVE than flanking critical chance trait, at least if you’re solo where mobs are almost always facing you, but there are better traits overall in the line such as quickness and executioner (it also benefits sword/pistol as the main attack you use in sword pistol is your dual attack anyway).

Also random is very fun. It’s one of the more fun aspects of the thief class. That’s what makes steal fun, you don’t know exactly what you’re going to get when you step in, and sometimes it can be something amazing like an axe or ectoplasm. When your quickness trait procs, that’s random, and when it happens right before an unload or pistol whip or death blossom that’s pretty exciting.

The first part could be true but with immobilize and CnD I usually end up behind the mobs, even then im not going to spam flanking strike on them or use DB for the chance to crit.

In PvP you know exactly what you’re going to get, ectoplasm seems like the worst to me. Having variation makes it fun and the fact that it teleports, at least for me. I could live without the random chance in PvE but even then it’s a couple of set things based on the mob you steal from.

Getting all the boons at once is the worst?

for me the worst stolen skill is shoot rifle (due to self knockback/stun), and use staff

Most of the rest are useful for stealth, condition causing, boons/heals, or cc, or damage in the case of axes.

Woops I meant that acid goo you throw on the floor, ectoplasm is great. It even gives aegis lol

I didn’t reserve like I should’ve or else the post would have been longer but I can’t let it die without saying how awful the Shadow Arts change to Leeching Venoms was in beta. If you are running a venom build and you have 4 venoms up, you hit someone with any attack and all 4 will proc yet you’ll only get healed once.
The heal really isn’t good enough for it to go off one time and I’m not going to spread my venoms out over a 4-16 second period(depending on if you want to use all the charges on the first one before activating another) when they can all be used at once.

This post deserves attention from the dev team.

icbat.3019:

I don’t want to comment on most of this, as I largely don’t care about ‘nerfs and buffs’. But this point drives me bonkers:

Random isn’t fun

This is flat wrong. Random is very, very fun. It’s why slot machines exist, and in fact dominate most casinos. It’s why Roulette and Craps exist, despite eating money from the players.

Random is quite fun. Please don’t go on a witch-hunt to get fun taken out of the game because you don’t find it useful. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of other choices in that exact slot that you’d rather take, so please take them and let scrubs like me to take our “bad” but fun choices.

Sorry but I thought we were talking about a video game, not real life.

Random is not fun nor should it be anywhere near a thieves skillset.

One last bump for mod attention. I’d prefer not to have 10 traits go unused, even if it’s not the ones I have listed we all know there are more.

Shadow Arts

VII. Power Shots (Shortbow & Harpoon damage increased by 5%) -
Not enough to be appealing, add reducing initiative costs OR increasing condition duration on the abilities of these two weapons would help help a ton since they both have a good amount of conditions. Not many people will go down SA cause they want to increase their damage unless they plan on using shadow refuge with the might buff.

VIII. Hidden Thief (Stealing grants you 2 seconds of stealth) -
Well this feat is simply not worth using a trait for IMO, this is much better off as a innate ability in shadow arts perhaps tied in with the 25 point feat that gives might. However I am sure there are those who use this feat and defend it’s usefulness because it’s one of the more reliable sources of stealth so this one is iffy.

Trickery

X. Ricochet (Pistol attacks have a 5% chance to bounce) -
Needs a drastic increase, I would say more along 50% chance if you actually want this to be used. 5% is much to random and we already covered that it’s not something thieves want, if you want random I highly suggest you play a Mesmer. It has stealth and melee weapons also.

XII. Sleight of Hand (Stealing dazes your target for 1 second) -
Obvious to anyone that this is not good, for one dazing is simply a silence and silencing someone for 1 second is negated by a single dodge roll from them. This daze either needs to be increased to 2.5 – 3 seconds, or leave it at one second but add a 2.5 second immobilize to the 1 second daze. This way you manage to get at least one good hit in. If all of this sounds too overpowered then simply move this feat out of our third tier, it hardly qualified as a first tier trait.

Side Note: Looks like the instances of shadow refuge don’t stack as quickly as they used to also. Takes about 9 seconds to reach 10 might now with the 25 point feat in SA.

Bump and added the continuation of the original post as a link.

Final Bump just to make sure the mods don’t overlook this,

Shameless bump, would like more opinions on the listed feats. Explain to me why it’s a good choice.

I don’t disagree these Traits need work, although I may not agree with some of the solutions.

The only one that got dogged on that I disagree with entirely was quickly corrected – Shadow’s Embrace is useful and effective and on demand.

I agree with Trickster and the Shortbow/Harpoon skills needing a little more shine. I can’t really argue than any of these traits are a good choice in PvE or PvP outside of flavor.

Mange.8324:

Trickery

X. Ricochet (Pistol attacks have a 5% chance to bounce) -
Needs a drastic increase, I would say more along 50% chance if you actually want this to be used. 5% is much to random and we already covered that it’s not something thieves want, if you want random I highly suggest you play a Mesmer. It has stealth and melee weapons also.

Agreed. A 5% chance seems woefully low and really doesn’t entice me to use this trait. 50% sounds a lot more useful (and reasonable).

thief traits in general are sloppy :S

want to share your venom’s and boon’s? oh well that’s a mandatory 30 points into the shadow arts tree, which offers us the two WORST scaling stats in the game “toughness and healing power” also the range at which even your party members gain said venom’s via it is INSANELY small and buggy, often that necro’s pet will get a nice boon. shame it’s a friggin mindless pet.

want vitality? that’s acrobatics my friend, and you’re trading off an extra second of stealth and our aggro dropping mechanics or faster recharge of that “oh it might give me something good steal skill”

traps are garbage except ambush for the potential dps sponge pet thief, which die in one hit in a exp dungeon any way’s lol.

all in all the only build I can stomach at this point is 25/30/0/10/5 we can’t tank because that evade on s/p can be interrupted and condition dmg burns us up in no time but from a non exp mode perspective I understand how easy it might seem to think we could really evade tank like a bawss lol…

also D/D is the only way outside of sigils to get bleed dmg from a melee and offers us access to CnD, D/P leaves us sans blind (something I usually feel balanced around) and P/D being superior because we can self combo into stealth via our smoke field but S/D is woefully bad, due to flanking being broken and buggy

fixing our traits is hopefully on the cards soon, cos all I see are nerfs with nothing back to us in areas where we are horribly lacking if not, well may as well reroll

I just visited thief forum to see what people don’t like about the thief. Seems like quite a lot of complaints. I watched a thief take down me and two of my buddies. When I say “watched” I mean I would have watched if he wasn’t stealthed 75% of the time. It was pathetic. It seems to me thieves are pretty unbeatable. Is it really easy to basically be perma stealthed or does it take a lot pf practice?

Mange.8324:

Lets face it the thief has the weakest downed state in the game

I stopped reading there because it simply isn’t true. Elementalists have the absolute weakest downed state. There’s no way to interrupt finishers and the 3rd downed skill is simply a worse version of thieves’ 2nd downed skill.

Player One.4932:

I just visited thief forum to see what people don’t like about the thief. Seems like quite a lot of complaints. I watched a thief take down me and two of my buddies. When I say “watched” I mean I would have watched if he wasn’t stealthed 75% of the time. It was pathetic. It seems to me thieves are pretty unbeatable. Is it really easy to basically be perma stealthed or does it take a lot pf practice?

It’s mostly a L2P issue, thieves can be cheap but they are usually cheap versus 1 target, not 2. If it was WvW you may have been out geared horribly.
As far as perma stealth he’s actually appearing out of stealth, you just need tab target as soon as you hear a noise or take damage and you’ll be able to hit him for 3 seconds after he appears. The rendering is really bad, even as a Thief it annoys me when this happens since im so squishy. You can get downed without seeing them if you weren’t already aware of their presence. A combination of practice and this knowledge should help, now BACK ON TOPIC!

Chipster.6713:

Mange.8324:

Lets face it the thief has the weakest downed state in the game

I stopped reading there because it simply isn’t true. Elementalists have the absolute weakest downed state. There’s no way to interrupt finishers and the 3rd downed skill is simply a worse version of thieves’ 2nd downed skill.

Elementalists may not have a good finisher dodge since you need to root, but all those do is save a couple of seconds anyways. Their mist form is much better than our immobile stealth because they can actually heal up from it. I’ve seen a lot of downed Elementalists escape death using this to get back to their zerg.
They may both have bad downed states but I can’t agree that eles is any worse.

XII. Hidden Killer (100% crit chance in stealth) -
Now I know beta players were grateful for the boost from a flat 50% crit chance to 100% crit chance change, but let’s face it, you are only going to land ONE hit from stealth and with a crit build a vast majority of the time it’s a critical hit WITHOUT this feat. I know this would be highly debated as to whether or not this actually underpowered but if you can only land one hit from stealth and you’re probably already sitting on 50% crit chance you are much better off with Executioners consistent damage boost. One thing that could make this more appealing is a critical damage boost while in stealth so that the first attack you do which breaks stealth and reveals you hits harder than normal. A 25% critical damage boost on top of 100% crit chance while in stealth seems good and keep in mind it’s only going to work on a single attack.

are you kidding me? only one hit? only one time stealth?
you are one of those guys who only know to spam hearseaker aren’t you?
its the best thing for backstap build and dont need any change

Player One,

stealth only lasts for 3 seconds at a time (4 seconds if you’ve got a trait to extend it) and there is a game enforced 1 second of “revealed” after coming out of stealth before you can enter stealth again. it is possible to build your Thief to include several abilities that enter stealth, so thats not that unrealistic, but its not permanent stealth. the Thief will be forced to blink into visbility for at least a second every 3 or 4 seconds.

i think you may be having learning curve issues here. Thieves take full damage in stealth, and you can bet that when a Thief Stealths near you they are probably trying to creep in for a Backstab. the behavior is predictable so it is easily countered. here are my suggestions:

1) drop AoE circles over yourself. the Thief is going to be nearby and will almost certainly get hit by these AoE circles. if you have an AoE that inflicts a status like Blind or Daze then you’ll just fully counter his attempt to Backstab you. if nothing else though you can whack the Thief for alot of damage just because you can predict where he is actually standing.

2) Drop an AoE movement controlling condition (like chill or cripple) and then just dodge roll out of the way. The Thief won’t be able to connect. He’ll drop out of stealth in another 2 or 3 seconds and be standing around crippled and vulnerable.

are you kidding me? only one hit? only one time stealth?
you are one of those guys who only know to spam hearseaker aren’t you?
its the best thing for backstap build and dont need any change

- werewolf

Are you kidding me? Why would you make such a ignorant reply and it’s almost like you didn’t read past the first sentence. Yes, news flash when you hit with a physical attack it breaks stealth and you are revealed for 3 seconds. ONE hit from stealth before you use it again, you don’t get to unleash a fury of attacks with your 100% crit chance and fact is if you’re specced crit you’re most likely at a 50% chance to crit already.
If you are getting this feat rather than the 20% damage boost then you are doing it wrong.

I’m one of those thieves that actually knows how to play the game, im sure you are busy pistol whipping since the heartseeker nerf so you need to cut it out.

Mange.8324:

are you kidding me? only one hit? only one time stealth?
you are one of those guys who only know to spam hearseaker aren’t you?
its the best thing for backstap build and dont need any change

- werewolf

Are you kidding me? Why would you make such a ignorant reply and it’s almost like you didn’t read past the first sentence. Yes, news flash when you hit with a physical attack it breaks stealth and you are revealed for 3 seconds. ONE hit from stealth before you use it again, you don’t get to unleash a fury of attacks with your 100% crit chance and fact is if you’re specced crit you’re most likely at a 50% chance to crit already.
If you are getting this feat rather than the 20% damage boost then you are doing it wrong.

I’m one of those thieves that actually knows how to play the game, im sure you are busy pistol whipping since the heartseeker nerf so you need to cut it out.

Mange is right, sorry werewolf. Hidden Killer sucks because you will be at 50% Critical chance by the time you have 30 points into Critical Strikes. It is a waste of a trait to choose Hidden Killer over Executioner when your Backstab already has 50/50 chance to critical. If it does critical, then your opponent probably be below 50% health which is where Executioner kicks in for your 20% damage boost.

Hidden Killer needs to grant Frenzy as well IMO.

Ruufio.1496:

Mange.8324:

are you kidding me? only one hit? only one time stealth?
you are one of those guys who only know to spam hearseaker aren’t you?
its the best thing for backstap build and dont need any change

- werewolf

Are you kidding me? Why would you make such a ignorant reply and it’s almost like you didn’t read past the first sentence. Yes, news flash when you hit with a physical attack it breaks stealth and you are revealed for 3 seconds. ONE hit from stealth before you use it again, you don’t get to unleash a fury of attacks with your 100% crit chance and fact is if you’re specced crit you’re most likely at a 50% chance to crit already.
If you are getting this feat rather than the 20% damage boost then you are doing it wrong.

I’m one of those thieves that actually knows how to play the game, im sure you are busy pistol whipping since the heartseeker nerf so you need to cut it out.

Mange is right, sorry werewolf. Hidden Killer sucks because you will be at 50% Critical chance by the time you have 30 points into Critical Strikes. It is a waste of a trait to choose Hidden Killer over Executioner when your Backstab already has 50/50 chance to critical. If it does critical, then your opponent probably be below 50% health which is where Executioner kicks in for your 20% damage boost.

Hidden Killer needs to grant Frenzy as well IMO.

I think that the problem with Hidden Killer isn’t so much the trait itself, but the fact that it has to compete for a slot with Executioner. Executioner just has a much bigger impact over the course of a fight that it’s practically a requirement that you take it if you’re going that far into the Critical Strikes tree, and it’s synergy with Furious Retaliation also shouldn’t be ignored.

I think that making Hidden Killer more accessible earlier in the tree would be one way to address this (although I feel like some hybrid build would come along and abuse it), or making it one of the top traits in the Shadow Arts tree. I’ve never understood why Venomous Aura was a top tier trait in a tree that revolves around stealth, and I think that making Hidden Killer available there will also allow a bit more flexibility in stealth builds.

Metaphorm,

After a few days of cooling off, I started to actually think about what I was doing vs a thief and I have been doing a lot of what you’ve said. Fighting a thief takes a LOT of patience and timing.

I fought a thief last night for a full 2 minutes and I would have won it if two of his realm mates hadn’t shown up. I also think that thief wasn’t very good or I just timed everything right.

I will however, not be convinced that being visible only 20% of the time is not OP.
in a 2v2 or 3v3 situation, the team with a thief has a significant advantage.

I am a necro btw so I may be better off than an Ele.

Bump as a reminder while there may be things that are OP and need nerfing, there are also things that are UP and need buffing. There’s no need to focus on one side of the equation.

ANET we need buffs to the blatantly underused traits and abilities if you are going to keep nerfing us, weakening every single thing until it’s as subpar as our alternative builds is a poor approach.

2 months later and everything mentioned in this post is still relevant and almost spot on save for one or two traits being used more often than predicted.