Guild Wars 2

Fix retaliation, needs a cooldown per tick.

My unload does 8 hits and retaliation does average 320 per hit, thats 2560 damage on 1 unload, so in 3 unloads it becomes 7680 damage done from retaliation on myself by an enemy not doing anything.

Makes me sad… very sad.

retaliation is fine, now you can see when you get ret damage, if you spam 3 unloads it’s only your fault, and for the first one: hit esc key to stop the channeling.

You’re not allowed to complain about retal unless you’ve played grenade engie.

Grenade barrage on a group with retal= 40 ticks of retal

Bountiful Theft.

WHY retaliation has no CD ?!?

Guys, you dont seem to realise that some classes have 100% uptime on retaliation, and even if i would steal once every 36 seconds and maybe take that retaliation, they will get it up again in a few seconds.

Canceling one attack wont help much.

that 100% uptime is based on boon duration chained with other skills the majority of the time. If you pay attention to their skills you Strip after a reset. Bountiful is a fairly strong trait and well trickery scales better with P/P then it does S/P

You have two weapon sets.
If you see someone with retaliation on and you have no way to strip it with your build, just switch to the other set with no channeling skills. Retaliation’s damage is worth nothing when against someone which deals high damage with a low number of hits.

That’s the point of retaliation, punishing people who don’t pay enough attention.

Bountiful is not the answer to this lol, its a 2 boon steal once every 36 seconds, and its not 100% chance to even get the retaliation from the person on the steal, you can get a regen and swiftness instead!

Retaliation is broken against some skills, that does alot of hits in a short time, like Unload.

And yes, we have 2 weapon sets, but the point im trying to make is that P/P shouldnt be useless suicide weapon vs a person with retaliation.

The problem is Unload, not retaliation
Everytime I´m using P/P against the final boss in cliffside or at the first time you fight the grawl in vulcanic I die because of their reflection, unload deals about 11k dmg my thief has about 10.8k hp → I kill myself just because I´m using the worst weapon set.
Any solutions? Don’t use P/P

Im a perma retal Engie , retaliation is perfectly fine ty.

Come on guys, don’t act like a victim.
Every profession has a skill which triggers retaliation a lot of times in a short period of time and Unload isn’t even the worse in this aspect.

But, guess what, only in the Thief forum people complains about it.

Unload + Signet of Malice = Gleeful Thief

ensoriki.5789:

that 100% uptime is based on boon duration chained with other skills the majority of the time. If you pay attention to their skills you Strip after a reset. Bountiful is a fairly strong trait and well trickery scales better with P/P then it does S/P

Trickery scales better with P/P? Now that is new to me.

Siva Mira.3546:

ensoriki.5789:

that 100% uptime is based on boon duration chained with other skills the majority of the time. If you pay attention to their skills you Strip after a reset. Bountiful is a fairly strong trait and well trickery scales better with P/P then it does S/P

Trickery scales better with P/P? Now that is new to me.

P/P gets all of the benefit of Trickery so it gets more out of investing in trickery. S/P is just a better set but doesn’t change im losing ~300 condi dmg since i don’t deal any.

ummm bountiful theft in the condition traitline for p/p user? fail lol. maybe sneak attack but other than that never use trickery line with p/p

ensoriki.5789:

Siva Mira.3546:

ensoriki.5789:

that 100% uptime is based on boon duration chained with other skills the majority of the time. If you pay attention to their skills you Strip after a reset. Bountiful is a fairly strong trait and well trickery scales better with P/P then it does S/P

Trickery scales better with P/P? Now that is new to me.

P/P gets all of the benefit of Trickery so it gets more out of investing in trickery. S/P is just a better set but doesn’t change im losing ~300 condi dmg since i don’t deal any.

Like allow you to spam more UNLOAD?

Grenade and Flamethrower Engineers say Hi

The solution really is: don’t use attacks that deal damage with multiple quick hits against people with lots of retaliation.

Like someone else said, you have more than one weapon set. It sounds like you’re basically angry because you can’t use the same exact tactic against every enemy.

L2P!

There, now I can say it to a thief!

Seriously though, from my perspective Retaliation as listed is fine, but only if it actually worked as it is listed.

Reflect incoming damage back to its source; stacks duration.

At present time it does not reflect incoming damage at all. Instead it basically counterattacks with damage disproportionate and regardless to the damage that was being dealt:
198.45 + (0.075 * Power)

As such, I feel that this formula should be removed and Retaliation changed to something more akin to Retribution from the original Guild Wars.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Retribution

This would change Retaliation to simply deal a portion of the actual incoming damage back to its source.

EXAMPLE:
Retaliation – Reflect 25% of incoming damage back to its source; stacks duration

• 10 little hits of 200 damage each (2000 total) would deal 25% (10×50=500) damage back to its source.
• 1 big hit of 2000 damage would deal 25% (1×500=500) damage back to its source.

With such a change the effects of reflected damage are equal across the board and do not punish players that have attacks with multiple small hits compared to players that have attacks with single big hits.

Are you serious?

yeah the retal as is right now is kinda broken. it takes builds like p/d or p/p and just gives them 0 chance to win.

Retal is pretty broken when you run a clerics/ptv w/ soldier runes shout guardian.

Engis, thieves got totally wrecked by my guardian when they run pistols/grenades ._.

Instead of crying about retaliation in the forum, you could instead learn how to counter it. I rarely die against a retaliation build, and that’s because I’ve learnt how to counter it. If I start a channeling attack and I see retaliation pop up I’ll interrupt it immideately and try to break los or keep distance until I have a chance of fighting back or just run away – which is pretty easy as a thief.

Retaliation is fine as it is. it’s bad enough it got nerfed already because of bads who don’t know how to play. You see the boon on someone, strip it from them. or use a different weapon. Don’t just attack blindly like a crazed monkey then cry OP because you couldn’t kill them in your squishy full zerker setup. You got punished for playing badly. Working as intended.

DanH.5879:

WHY retaliation has no CD ?!?

WHY does whining have no CD?

Rhogall.4179:

WHY does whining have no CD?

I lol’d. Literally.

This is not something you should consider as a L2P issue, because the OP does make a valid point. Regardless of your class, you can be using skills that cause a lot of smaller attacks and that will result in a lot of damage on yourself (possibly killing yourself). You can easily see when someone has Retaliation in a small skirmish, but when you’re dropping attacks into a full retaliation energy zerg in WvW you’re bound to kill yourself instantly (and yes, everyone on my server zergs runs retaliation sharing builds either through combination or just as Guardian).

Aveneo.2068 makes a good point; it makes much more sense to get damage proportional to the damage inflicted, which makes retaliation effective against the cookie-cutter D/D and D/P as well. That’s what everyone wants, right, counters against thief? Then don’t kitten about someone playing a terrible P/P set and complaining about how silly a mechanism is.

99% of the Thief population is not affected as it is; just Backstab and laugh.

The only problem with retaliation is that it rewards too high for not having to do anything. I think it’d be perfect as is IF the guard had to land 1 melee attack at least every 5 seconds or else retal would end. How are you counter attacking (retaliating) when you’re 900 range away using scepter? That or make it only be allowed to proc once every .5s

If a tank guardian has protection and retal up (not a stretch to get) and a zerker thief is unloading on the guard, the thief is going to die first. Too high a reward when the player isn’t doing anything but using shouts.

Rhogall.4179:

DanH.5879:

WHY retaliation has no CD ?!?

WHY does whining have no CD?

Whining is fine man, this is just a l2p issue …

:D

Rissou.7213:

Fix retaliation, needs a cooldown per tick.

My unload does 8 hits and retaliation does average 320 per hit, thats 2560 damage on 1 unload, so in 3 unloads it becomes 7680 damage done from retaliation on myself by an enemy not doing anything.

Makes me sad… very sad.

We shall see where retaliation sits. I’ve only just recently started noticing it used a lot, of often in conjunction with confusion so that is two sources of damage punishing you for putting out loads of damage.

This has been on my engineer though, and it aligned perfectly with me messing around with my Flamethrower build so as you can imagine, my x10 1 attack was dealing lots of damage to me.

With that said, that was my primary source of damage, so it wasn’t like I could just interrupt an unload and switch to auto attacking but it never managed to kill me.

We can always rely on ANet to overnerf something though, so if the numbers get too crazy, I’m sure retaliation will be useless is no time.

Right now though, it really is fine. It isn’t even an issue of ‘learning to play’ as people like to toss out as if they are actually good at the game, it’s just been showing up a lot more lately. You’ll get used to it.

Anubarak.3012:

The problem is Unload, not retaliation
Everytime I´m using P/P against the final boss in cliffside or at the first time you fight the grawl in vulcanic I die because of their reflection, unload deals about 11k dmg my thief has about 10.8k hp -> I kill myself just because I´m using the worst weapon set.
Any solutions? Don’t use P/P

That’s your problem, right there.

Fenrir.6183:

Anubarak.3012:

The problem is Unload, not retaliation
Everytime I´m using P/P against the final boss in cliffside or at the first time you fight the grawl in vulcanic I die because of their reflection, unload deals about 11k dmg my thief has about 10.8k hp -> I kill myself just because I´m using the worst weapon set.
Any solutions? Don’t use P/P

That’s your problem, right there.

Most thieves are running full zerker.. I you get hit you will die anyway. But it’s a little bit strange when you can survive much better with D/D (melee) then P/P (range)

P/P is just terrible. If you use P/P on a perma retal guardian who knows what they are doing, you either run away or die.

P/P needs work. I more so think Body Shot is one of the most useless Initiative drains I have ever seen.

DanH.5879:

WHY retaliation has no CD ?!?

Dunno? Why Stealth Attacks have no CD?

I more so think Body Shot is one of the most useless Initiative drains I have ever seen.

I’m pretty sure that’s the worst skill of the game. I mean, other professions have
useless skills too, but that one is actually harmful to the thief as it wastes initiative.

If you really used 3 times Unload back to back before realizing there was retal, those 7k+ of dmg are totally deserved.

This is just silly, retaliation is fine as is. Thieves have plenty of ways to deal with it, even if your specific p/p build doesn’t. I think one could make a good argument for why p/p is weak, and maybe this could be part of it. But honestly, you target an enemy, you can see the boons they have, and you can avoid attacking the one with retaliation up.

I do think it’s funny that you aren’t complaining about reflection…which I also don’t think is OP’d

You dont get perma retaliation on guardian unless you specifically trait and spec for it. It requires all your runes, 2 utilities, 30 points in the boon duration line, as well as the +25% retal duration trait, requires 10 in honor to make shouts recharge faster, requires you to use a great sword or hammer and use skills specifically to reapply it instead of using those things to do damage, and requires you to spam F1 instead of holding it back which does more damage.

You know how common this guardian build is? I’d guess 1 in 30 guardians actually use it, if that. This is a L2P issue with you, as this build is a pretty easy thing to counter on thief, just switch to S/D and use the #3 skill, as it relies almost entirely on boons to stay alive, and youll be taking all those boons and can facetank the guardian. If youre not fighting a guardian like this, just watch for retal to end and then spam unload, its not like kiting guardians is hard… Theyre one of the least mobile classes in the game.

retaliation should NOT reflect both ranged damage&melee
it’s OP

retal is obviously OP, guardians are just defending this mechanic because they can’t L2P without it.

makes me sad to see that players like the OP make this profession look bad…
Retaliation has its own dmg color on your screen, after using the first unload and seen that retaliation is up, WHY would you unload 2 more times on a row!?

Makes me sad… very sad.

The whole point is that he can make you interrupt yourself without having to use an interrupt skill.

I am not hating Reta and I like it when I play my Guardian. Reta has its pros and con but its pros and con are pretty bad in the game. The pros is that it can harrass these bad build like P/P and S/P. And the con is that it is hardly effective against any good builds in this game.

Volrath.1473:

makes me sad to see that players like the OP make this profession look bad…
Retaliation has its own dmg color on your screen, after using the first unload and seen that retaliation is up, WHY would you unload 2 more times on a row!?

Makes me sad… very sad.

ENOUGH!.. okay, enough with all your moaning and complaining about it is a l2p issue!

I cant believe I need to defend myself on this issue.

No, it doesnt take 3 unloads for me to see if there is a retaliation, i notice it on the first attack, because it has a big retaliation icon in your face when you attack them.

This has nothing to do with if i should switch weapons, run away, change target.. This is an issue with retaliation punishing on Pistol/pistol!

I want Pistol/pistol to have a chance to win against someone with retaliation, if anyone of you ever fought a thief with pistol/pistol, you wouldnt make these stupid comments, because a fact is you dont lose to a thief with pistol/pistol, its a broken weapon set.

Rissou.7213:

Volrath.1473:

makes me sad to see that players like the OP make this profession look bad…
Retaliation has its own dmg color on your screen, after using the first unload and seen that retaliation is up, WHY would you unload 2 more times on a row!?

Makes me sad… very sad.

ENOUGH!.. okay, enough with all your moaning and complaining about it is a l2p issue!

I cant believe I need to defend myself on this issue.

No, it doesnt take 3 unloads for me to see if there is a retaliation, i notice it on the first attack, because it has a big retaliation icon in your face when you attack them.

This has nothing to do with if i should switch weapons, run away, change target.. This is an issue with retaliation punishing on Pistol/pistol!

I want Pistol/pistol to have a chance to win against someone with retaliation, if anyone of you ever fought a thief with pistol/pistol, you wouldnt make these stupid comments, because a fact is you dont lose to a thief with pistol/pistol, its a broken weapon set.

Well guess what …
You found the rock to your scissor
The paper to your rock
The lizard to your spock
…

Basically, just because YOUR build is ineffective against ONE build ( or an aspect of it ) doesn’t mean said aspect needs to be changed. This isn’t you vs everything where YOU have to be able to kill everyone else and the rest should only be allowed to lay down and die at the press of your I WIN button.

Retaliation is fine. I will accept, however, that P/P is not in a good place right now. It needs “teh buffz”.

^
If only that was the case like Rock-Paper-Scissor but the true is you are killing yourself by attacking someone standing still. It took almost no effort nor skilled to kill someone with your Reta as long as you have the right build and play it with one hand while the other hand is holding Pizza.

Siva Mira.3546:

^
If only that was the case like Rock-Paper-Scissor but the true is you are killing yourself by attacking someone standing still. It took almost no effort nor skilled to kill someone with your Reta as long as you have the right build and play it with one hand while the other hand is holding Pizza.

actually you need to press 1 button, and you WIN !
ok, ok….maybe sometime you need to actually use the heal skill….

Rissou.7213:

Fix retaliation, needs a cooldown per tick.

My unload does 8 hits and retaliation does average 320 per hit, thats 2560 damage on 1 unload, so in 3 unloads it becomes 7680 damage done from retaliation on myself by an enemy not doing anything.

Makes me sad… very sad.

So.. you want an ability nerfed because you don’t know how to look for a boon to avoid spamming an ability on?

While were at it, nerf daze too, because thieves do not have situational awareness, therefore nerf other classes.

Allelya.6830:

So.. you want an ability nerfed because you don’t know how to look for a boon to avoid spamming an ability on?

While were at it, nerf daze too, because thieves do not have situational awareness, therefore nerf other classes.

Wait, do I need to mention that looking for retaliation is so old school, they implemented a new graphics on your screen that shows when you attack someone with retaliation, so STFU!

No, retaliation is fine against almost everything except skills that do rapid hits in a short time, like Unload, like what this whole thread is about.

If they gave retaliation a cooldown per tick on a target for like 0.5 seconds. Would mean that one unload that lasts for almost 2 seconds would only recieve 3-4 ticks of retaliation instead of 8 ticks.

Rissou.7213:

because a fact is you dont lose to a thief with pistol/pistol, its a broken weapon set.

Then restrict the whining to asking for a p/p buff/redesign, rather than whining about how it is hard to fight something when it is designed to hard counter you’re particular strategy.

The thing that a lot of people are hearing from this thread is “rock is imba, nerf rock and buff paper!”.

Surbrus.6942:

Rissou.7213:

because a fact is you dont lose to a thief with pistol/pistol, its a broken weapon set.

Then restrict the whining to asking for a p/p buff/redesign, rather than whining about how it is hard to fight something when it is designed to hard counter you’re particular strategy.

The thing that a lot of people are hearing from this thread is “rock is imba, nerf rock and buff paper!”.

Any skill that does fast hits in a short time suffers, for me as a thief its sneak attack on pistol/dagger and pistolwhip in sword/pistol and tbh, its a problem with retaliation, if it had a 0.5 second cooldown there would be no difference against all other people, but a huge difference for fast hitting skills.