Guild Wars 2

Based on how things are going with HS nerf, PW nerf, Basalisk venom nerf, Descent of Shadows nerf, etc… we can expect the following nerfs:

- Quickness. This is going to get nerfed, but unsure how. Perhaps removed completely, or make it so although attack speed is increased, overall damage is decreased while active. Maybe increased cooldown time too.

- Backstab. Due to player complaints, this is next on the list. Even though this build sacrifices virtually everything for single target DPS, requires a good opener, requires all cooldowns to be up, and only is possible once every minute or so, the damage output is high, resulting in complaints.

- Unload. This may or may not be nerfed depending on how quickness is handled. Even though pressing the dodge key once completely mitigates all damage, players who sit absolutely stationary will complain it does too much damage.

- Dagger storm. To balance the fact all other thief elites are pretty useless, this will be nerfed to bring it down to the same level. Perhaps remove how it reflects projectiles. Even though there’s a giant spinning animation and sound, people who blindly shoot arrows at it will complain about it reflecting back.

Any other ideas on what will be next?

Quickness is the only thing that needs a nerf, so take that off the list.

1 thing i know for sure, Warriors are not getting any nerfs.

If they ever fix the issue with thieves not appearing immediately after attacking from stealth then most of these other issues people have with thieves go away.

Maybe making it so stealth abilities don’t stack?

If they nerf quickness they better either still allow it to stomp/revive at double speed or preferably just remove downed state from PvP. All it does is punish people for trying to fight outnumbered.

spif.7580:

Maybe making it so stealth abilities don’t stack?

I hope not, that would kill shadow refuge.

Volrath.1473:

1 thing i know for sure, Warriors are not getting any nerfs.

Well if you nerf quickness you effectively kill all the 100b warriors as well..that would be amusing

If they nerf quickness they better either still allow it to stomp/revive at double speed or preferably just remove downed state from PvP. All it does is punish people for trying to fight outnumbered.

Removing downed state from PvP sounds like the right move to me. It favors zergs, downed state skills are in a horrible state of balance, and the downed state camera is downright frustrating to the point where I’d rather just die and respawn.

Yeah, I don’t like to see a game lose ‘unique’ mechanics or ‘flavor’ as I call it, but I wouldn’t miss downed state 1 bit if it were removed, for all of the reasons you mentioned. It’s especially frustrating to go in against 5+ players and manage to down 1 or 2, and end up having to run.

I am pretty sure backstab damage will receive a nerf. my thief hits glass cannons for up to 13k crits, targets with 2k toughness up to 8k. this is not WvW against undergeared guys, I talk about spvp, I talk about tournaments where everyone has the same gear where I can instagib someone and take him out of the fight which is a huge advantage.

But how much goes into that 13k hit? At least two abilities, probably more to buff up the damage, plus a stealth requirement, plus positioning… With all that required for one ability that does nothing but damage, it should hit like a truck.

since when is “you use your abilities” an argument? you would use all your tricks you have to offer to win the fight anyway. the advantage of this build is, you remove one target INSTANTLY from a fight and your team gets ahead.

Since when is Dagger Storm the only useful Elite? The Venom sucks, but I thought Thieves Guild was quite useful I prefer it to Dagger Storm any how.

Haha, I love the “but how much goes into that hit?!?!?!?” nonsense.

You use your abilities and hit for 13k, something is wrong. End of story. The game is specifically supposed to be skill based, meaning that is not supposed to be any part of the system.

Needs a nerf, as do several other skills with silly damage output (Eviserate, for instance).

I’m not necessarily saying that it is good design, just that it is balanced within the current design. Thief damage is all loaded into one attack, but they’re doing similar total damage to other classes per total time and per number of abilities used. And that loading it all into one attack is a two-sided coin. On the one hand, it is insane burst. But on the other hand, a single missed attack means pretty much no damage done, while on other classes a single missed attack is just a small part of the damage missing.

It may need a rework and have the damage spread out a bit, but not a flat nerf.

I’ve been hit for 13K instantly by:

Theif (backstab)
War (Full Adrenalin gunshot or Charge/KD+quickness+100blades)
Mesmer (BF+Clone Pops)
Eng (Idk wtf this was)

I’m sure the other classes can sepc in a way to do it too. Theifs/War(gun) are 1 hit, Eng and Mesmer are mutli things all at once but it still adds up to 13K+ in <1 second.

I can see backstab getting nerfed, without a doubt.

Either way, if they fixed the rendering issues, I feel that 90% of the complaints about thieves would go away. There would still be QQ obviously, but you can trait so QQ refills your initiative, so its all good.

:)

The only things the nerfs the OP lised will do is cause thieves to re-adjust their builds away from all out 100% offense builds. They’ll actually need to think beyond a simple strategy of “pop all CDs, explode enemy, stealth, lol!”.

I don’t necessarily think this is a bad thing. Many of the good thief videos you see already involve the players thinking outside of the burst builds. They’re taking people down with superior tactics and awareness, and outplaying their opponents instead of insta-gibbing them.

The burst builds are FUN, don’t get me wrong. But they aren’t very balanced when you get right down to it. Also, nerfs in one area might allow for adjustments upwards in other areas. Anet might see fit to give thieves a more reliable long range option other than the shortbow with cluster bomb spam.

We’ll see. In the mean time, all you burst backstab thieves should maybe take this opportunity to try out a more survivable condition build, such as the P/D, or the D/D bleed builds. Broaden your skillset. That way nerfs to one ability don’t wreck your entire effectiveness.

You can’t balance a game around the noobs crying on these forums.

Quickness is the only possible nerf that can be justified. Anything else and you may as well delete the class.

Eliteseraph.4970:

The only things the nerfs the OP lised will do is cause thieves to re-adjust their builds away from all out 100% offense builds. They’ll actually need to think beyond a simple strategy of “pop all CDs, explode enemy, stealth, lol!”.

I don’t necessarily think this is a bad thing. Many of the good thief videos you see already involve the players thinking outside of the burst builds. They’re taking people down with superior tactics and awareness, and outplaying their opponents instead of insta-gibbing them.

The burst builds are FUN, don’t get me wrong. But they aren’t very balanced when you get right down to it. Also, nerfs in one area might allow for adjustments upwards in other areas. Anet might see fit to give thieves a more reliable long range option other than the shortbow with cluster bomb spam.

We’ll see. In the mean time, all you burst backstab thieves should maybe take this opportunity to try out a more survivable condition build, such as the P/D, or the D/D bleed builds. Broaden your skillset. That way nerfs to one ability don’t wreck your entire effectiveness.

Doesn’t help one lick in PVE, condition damage is awful in PVE because only the person with the highest condition damage will get credit.

The whole class, starting wtih the initiative mechanic and stealth skills, is designed around burst dps. We already pay for it with lower actions per minute and lower sustained DPS than other classes. Now we’re losing our burst.

So we’ll have less sustained dps and less burst dps, in PVP sure you can go kite/bleed specs.

But in PVE? People won’t invite you to dungeons, they’d just assume get someone who has better support options and better damage. Remember, blindness spam does JACK against champions, and we can’t stun a champion once on an entire initiative bar because of defiant. Agaisnt dungeon bosses.. you’re plinking away with a shortbow or pistol, doing moderate damage and putting up poison/weakness and have a few limited support utilities.

I think the only way to fix the backtsab complaints would be adjust the 150% damage signet, that button right there is adding 4k to 5k damage on those crits.

If they just lower the damage of backstab it will only hurt the players that arent using it with signet and 100% crit chance builds. (like me) that arent the ones causing crazy damage complaints to begin with.

And yes you have to factor in the ability needs you to be stealthed and behind the target. that right there causes much less backstab attemps and successful back damage. also look at what the ability damage dwelves for compared to heartseeker’s full damage dwelve, its not very much more.

Backstab probably the next one on the list, the question is how much and will it affect other builds

Imagine if they nerf the stealth? Because ppl are complaining about it.

People complained about HS, got nerfed.
People complained about PW, got nerfed.
People complained about Basilik, got nerfed.
People are complaining about stealth, backstab, quick, guess what?

Backstab, stealth and dagger storm are currently the most complained about Thief abilities. I am expecting backstab and dagger storm to be hit next.

I’ve never succeeded in pulling off a backstab higher than 9k against an 80 with the signet unless the target is below 50% health. This is in WvW with a mix of berserker and valkyrie gear and berserker weapons. These 14k backstabs are boosted by might as well as the signet and are quite difficult to time and land.

I wish Thieves didn’t have to be cheesy but we adapt to the hand we’ve been dealt. Even with Pistol whip being nerfed, expect to see more Dagger/Pistol builds showing up to nuke targets and fall back on blinding powder and stealth.

Volrath.1473:

1 thing i know for sure, Warriors are not getting any nerfs.

Yeah im am not understand that at all…They get more armor and HP then we do and yet we are the ones that get a kick to the face? Typical MMO logic.

@ Bazeleel

I think he’s saying that warriors are Anet’s love child. Even though they are pretty mediocre for most everything.

- Quickness. Agreed! But this applies to more than just Thieves.

- Backstab. Disagree! Backstab in itself is not the problem. It’s the added Might stacks from Venoms + Singets that really push things over the top. Replace those traits with something more interesting and less bursty and you have a win/win.

- Unload. Considering how few people actually use Dual Pistols, I haven’t heard a single complaint about its damage output.

- Dagger storm. No, Daggerstorm is great AoE but doesn’t really hurt a single player that much unless he continues to shoot. This is something players will learn to counter over time.

Thieves get too many nerfs as is… Honestly I won’t be suprised when the day comes that thieves are no longer played. If you don’t know how to survive well on other professions, you won’t play thief well, but thief damage is the only thing that lures people in (and looking bamf; fyi we need more hoods please ^^)
Honestly, if they nerf cloak and Dagger (backstab) Im done with thief. (my entire build is based on stealth and backstabs minus the op signet traits since im hitting around 5k)

NinjaEd.3946:

Thieves get too many nerfs as is…

Am I just missing something here or have we done pretty well in regards to nerfs.

Pretty much just heartseeker (was needed), a stealth on falling trait and this pistolwhip/BV.

Is there others that are making people feel like they have a target on their back?

What annoys me more than non-thieves QQing about thieves are Thieves using alternate builds that use stealth/rendering builds and call it more skillful than sword/pistol builds. Make the other weapon sets worth changing to so we have a variety of options, I don’t want to play a stealthy backstab thief or a condition build thief, I want to play an in your face sword thief that uses headshot, Black powder and pistol whip to control and kill without hiding like a kitten. I would have played a sword/dagger thief but flanking strike is too unreliable.

Ye really if Anet is just gonna nerf anything about a class then might as well not of made the class in the first place… go recall the design team and replace the thief class with a monk or something >.>

Devildoc.6721:

Doesn’t help one lick in PVE, condition damage is awful in PVE because only the person with the highest condition damage will get credit.

To clarify, that’s a problem with multiple people using the same types of condition damage, not necessarily condition damage on it’s own. In which case that’s not something that’s specific to thieves.

Unless you’re talking about tagging trash mobs during events? Then I’d agree that condition damage is somewhat lacking since the enemies die so quickly, and tagging them with direct burst damage is important.

But the thief class using burst damage is far from castrated by this change. Even Pistol Whip itself is still rather good. The base damage of the ability was nerfed by 15%, which doesn’t take into account all the other ways to improve it. This is what people don’t seem to understand. Total damage output isn’t dropping by 15%, even if all you use is Pistol Whip(which you shouldn’t be unless you’re terrible, in which case it doesn’t matter anyway).

You still have all your other damage modifiers coming into play: Gear, Traits, Runes. To claim that it’s the end of the world for Thieves, and that no one will ever invite a thief to a dungeon run is just being overly pessimistic and defeatist. The sky is not falling, and there is more to being a part of a successful dungeon run that raw burst damage output.

I have a feeling most people in this thread did not get the irony in the OP… Especially the ones who seem happy to insist that those nerfs should come, and argue about which one should come first.

I haven’t really played a PW build unless in Orr when it came in handy with multiple mobs. PvP wise I found a P/D venom share build to be a bit more effective than PW burst or even backstab. That being said the PW nerf doesn’t bother me too much.

As for the skills in the OP most of the people complaining don’t understand that they’re very situational.

- Haste has a long enough cooldown and as of now it’s mostly viable with unload. Other uses as well but in my opinion the cooldown makes up for it.

- Backstab I disagree with the “it’s possible once every minute”. If you’re willing to go D/P you can get invisible if you’re willing to spend some initiative. But it still makes it very costly. Yes it hits like a truck but if you see a thief going invisible and you’ll just park there waiting, you had it coming.

- Unload, dodge is the simplest answer to that. While a lot of classes have reflect projectiles this can backfire ugly if it’s not used right. Instead of complaining rather learn how to use your own skills. Also 900 range while most classes have at least one 1200 range spell. Enough said.

- Dagger storm – 1vs1 not really worth having as an elite anyway. The main use for this spell is PvE or maybe WvWvW. Bind + get out of range. God knows there are worse elites to worry about in this game.

- Basilisk venom – What surprises me about this spell is that people keep saying it’s an awesome setup for backstab and it’s overpowered. Let’s see…insanely long setup time, 1.5sec stun, and as of yesterday stun breakers work on it apparently. If a thief is good enough to go invisible and backstab you in 1.5 sec, while you can’t interrupt the preparation of Basilisk venom or break stun then I don’t see the spell as being overpowered.

All and all after playing a thief and warrior since launch I’m not seeing the thief as an overpowered class. Looking at my warrior, I have twice the HP, almost twice the toughness, and a lot more hitting power. As a thief I have to work a lot harder in order to get a kill (and no I’m not complaining)

As a thief that plays backstab build in WvW(And sPvp a little). I don’t run assassins signet because I prefer the stun breaker of shadow step to much. If they nerf backstab they are really taking away any burst we have. I play a thief because I love stealthy classes and the burst that comes with them. But as of right now, a warrior has the highest burst and way more hp and toughness. Let alone our survivability does not come from being tanky but stealthing and get away.
PW was not really that powerful, unless you are just dumb and do not run a stun breaker. Most bad thieves ran haste along with it and guess what, after they poped that and most likely another skill. They had nothing left.
Why are thieves getting the nerf bat and warriors left untouched?

honestly I don’t care if they keep nerfing the thief. I will still play it. The funnest profession in the game IMO.

Stiv.1820:

I’ve been hit for 13K instantly by:
Theif (backstab)
War (Full Adrenalin gunshot or Charge/KD+quickness+100blades)
Mesmer (BF+Clone Pops)
Eng (Idk wtf this was)

I’m sure the other classes can sepc in a way to do it too. Theifs/War(gun) are 1 hit, Eng and Mesmer are mutli things all at once but it still adds up to 13K+ in <1 second.

ofcourse other classes can do huge burst too, the difference is, all the other classes need time to setup the damage. thief can do 13k backstab crits in much shorter timeframe, just by precasting some abilities, use steal and then backstab.

Ghonta.3958:

Imagine if they nerf the stealth? Because ppl are complaining about it.

People complained about HS, got nerfed.
People complained about PW, got nerfed.
People complained about Basilik, got nerfed.
People are complaining about stealth, backstab, quick, guess what?

People cry about a lot of things. The most crying, however, comes from thief players saying “L2P” instead of realizing that things need to be changed.

HS was nerfed because it did too much damage for a skill that leaps
PW was nerfed because it did too much damage for a skill that has a daze
BV was nerfed because it was essentially a stun with no counter
BV was also buffed in duration, and I’ve never seen thieves use it…so…qq less plz.

Stealth is stealth, the only thing they need to do is fix it so people can SEE thieves when they’re supposed to be seen…

Backstab isn’t the problem, the problem is sin sig. Nerf sin sig and backstab (BS) problems will go away.

Quickness is available to multiple classes. I would advocate that quickness be remove entirely from the game…but that’s just me. I’m not sure what they have in store for it but I wouldn’t expect it to stick around in its current form for long.

Side note: Thief crying is like a siren’s song to me…I can’t resist…I HAVE to listen…lol

@Eliteseraph: I’m really getting sick of explaining this very, basic, GED stupid concept.

Pistol whip was the only skill on the bar that did damage, otherwise you just autoattack. The other skills are 100% utility with near nothing for damage.

It is actually MORE than a 15% damage nerf, due to the effect of crit damage, which, a lot of pistol whip thieves ran around in berserkers with high crit damage.

You go from 10k pistol whips pre patch to 6k pistol whips post patch

Then you turn around and crit all 3 hits on your autoattack chain for 7.5k and just want to delete your character and stop playing the game.

That’s not a 15% damage nerf, it’s worse.

Basic concept.

Look at the Sword/Pistol bar and tell me where all these other skills I’m supposed to use to make up the damage lost from pistol whip…

Hint: It’s not there.

Do I need to repeat yet again?

All I can say is, with every nerf, this “kill or be killed” class is slowly but surely moving to “poke or be killed” class.

They may as well offer thieves some clown costumes because that is what’s left for thieves to do.

The problem with this thread and pretty much every post in it is the need to start the post of your opinions with the perspective its coming from SPvP or WvW

backstab nerf is not a big deal to WvW players but to structured its a massive topic of conversation.

Same again with dagger storm which is lethal in WvW but in SPvP it functions with a nice damage to cool down ratio and the additional utility of being unstoppable.

My only concern with the thief nerfs is haste and also quickness in the game in general. longer fights are better fights. Whilst glass cannon specs have their place quickness and potent quickness skills like haste do contribute to the dumbing down of combat to a certain degree.

As for backstab crits, you can do a lot to get these really high numbers but you sacrifice so much for it. I don’t play enough SPvP to comment indepth about it but their is a sacrifice from the thief to be able to do this and speaking from my WvW experience the backstab build is fairly easy to counter.

Remember every Nerf thread are pure QQ nothing more nothing less. and Anet just follows through w/o any careful deliberation.

Ok first off, basilisk venom got a buff, it was a 1 second stun now its 1.5 secs, the stun breaks affecting it isnt gamebreaking, its bug fixing, and thats why I root them with basilisk venom up just incase they stun break they are still my btich for 5 secs.

Idc if quickness gets nerfed, I dont use it, I like my dodge bar too much.

Anet doesnt nerf based on player complaint, backstab most likely wont be touched, other skills might like assassins signet, but I doubt by much.

No idea about unload, dont use pistols.

Dagger storm is great, I love it but its not an I win button, thieves guild is much better for that, saying thief elites suck is stupid, thief elites are amazing. I love basiliks venom most, but dagger storm is my second favorite and then thieves guild since its almost always an I win button.

Stop being stupid guys. The only thing that need to be remove is quickness. Why?

Backstab. You need to position yourself, it require the perfect timing in order for it to land succesfully. If you don’t, you’ll get stomped really bad due to thieves is really, I mean REALLY squishy. It require skill=no noobs can do this easily. Thieves have to give up ALOT of survivability for that damage and should be rewarded. You can argue they come out of stealth for it but stealth isn’t permanent, you can see thieves coming and prepare for it.

Other build(HS, PW, Unload). Add in quickness and any noob that play the class for the first time can stomp any level of players, no matter how good or bad they are. Doesn’t really matter if you fail, because you won’t. With the quickness all you need to do is be in the range mash the same button and your target will be dead in a 1v1 situation. This is the real issue here, quickness. Not the weapon skill.

Regarding Unload: it really doesn’t do as much dmg as other stuff Thief has, except on low-armor targets. Try fighting the Thief sparring NPC in the Mists with a cloth wearing profession and see what Unload does (or any other multihit burst skill of Ranger, Warrior, Guardian etc). The prob is mitigation scaling IMO, not the skill itself

Arsenic.8259:

Why are thieves getting the nerf bat and warriors left untouched?

Maybe for the same reason why Eles are getting their nerfs, even if it´s maybe the weakest class of all? I didn´t really see any attempt for balance since BWE 3 patch.
(I´m playing both Thief and Ele FYI – because those classes fits me and requires some brain.)

1 Fix Culling after stealth
2 ????
3 Balance

Although I’m probably wasting my time trying to explain this to noobs, I’m going to write this hear in the hopes Anet will read. Lets use warrior as a good example.

A dual axe warrior with the basic high crit glass cannon build, can just press 5 (whirling axe) and gets an insane amount of adrenline, get’s 3 bars in like 2 seconds, then can proceed to use eviscerate to hit about the same as backstab. It’s like this;

Warrior: Whirling Axe – Eviscerate
Thief: Ballistik venom – Immobilize venom – steal – cloak & dagger – move behind – assassins signet – backstab.

Warrior with glass cannon build still get’s hit hard, but still maintains a lot of survivabilty. Thief on the other hand, one cc and were dead. If the other guy keeps dodging while were trying to backstab or cloak & shadows, we waste all are initiative and have to get out, where a warrior evicerate is just a lock on – 10k+ crit.

So how is it Thief is OP? And the Pistol Whip nerf was beyond kitten it never done ‘too much’ damage, the stun on it was almost non existent and kept you there for about 2-3 hits. Quickness however is stupid, and should be removed from the game.

All you idiot’s need to l2p.

You forgot the most important nerf, damage must break stealth. A class can not remain invisible 95% of the time and be pretty much safe from everything while dealing high damage.

zerospin.8604:

You forgot the most important nerf, damage must break stealth. A class can not remain invisible 95% of the time and be pretty much safe from everything while dealing high damage.

Hope this is a joke. It would break the class. Stealth is 3-4 seconds. I can loose 50% of my health while in stealth as is. If escapes are down it’s easy to get 100-0 while in stealth.

edit: Judging from you post history you aren’t joking. You are just pretty bad. I’ve taken on 6 bads before and killed a couple an won or got away too but if there is a decent engineer (which you must not be) I’m perma immobilized and pounded into the ground by the group.

The problem is if you nerf backstab base dmg you are, in fact, FORCING players to play glass cannons. Instead of creating diversity you are stagnating it.

“Wait, what? That’s weetahded!”

Allow me to explain.

I currently play a D/D 30 crit, 20 shadow, 20 acro, signet, Power/Tough/Vitality build. My primary source of damage is backstab dancing & I’ve gotten good at it. I can go toe to toe with bunker builds and help tremendously with defending positions.

If you kill BS you kill this build. I’m not doing anywhere near 13k crits. More like 5-6 at best. I’m an “outside the box” player but if you nerf BS you are FORCING me to go Glass Cannon to stay competitive. Put a cap on BS dmg, I’m for that. Or diminishing returns on crit dmg stacking. But don’t nerf base dmg.

You have to look at the bigger picture here. The recent GS nerf for Guardians is a prime example of ripple effects that take place when drastic ability nerfs take place. You hurt builds that weren’t intended to be hurt.

I see quickness being removed completely. It’s just not good for the game, and will either be useless or mandatory, and keeps the classes that use them too simple (Shortbow Ranger). By that I mean, if they remove quickness, they can then adjust the classes that used it to achieve burst some other means, hopefully in a less faceroll way.

Backstab I don’t think will be nerfed. If it does they would probably just remove the positional requirement and tack on some other effect to make it not boring. I think they should just change the 150% dmg Signet since backstab is really the only thing to use it for anyway.