Lady Minuit
(edited by Lady Minuit.3186)
Upcoming changes to Thief - Cloaked in Shadow
What needs to happen is it needs to trade places with Resilience of Shadows. RoS is way too OP as a minor trait and blind on stealth is useless as GM.
Thief
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If they merged hidden thief into it, I would be even less likely to take it. It should be made a minor trait or merged with shadow protector. In fact swapping it with last refuge would solve a lot of problems.
I understand that they put it there based on blinding ashes for ele, but D/P is handing out blinds like candy already, and D/D will have have to hit a crucial CnD for it to do anything. If you’re using the utility stealths (BP, SR, HiS) you’re not going to proc it often anyway.
It should be made more accessible for /D.
If they merged hidden thief into it, I would be even less likely to take it. It should be made a minor trait or merged with shadow protector. In fact swapping it with last refuge would solve a lot of problems.
I understand that they put it there based on blinding ashes for ele, but D/P is handing out blinds like candy already, and D/D will have have to hit a crucial CnD for it to do anything. If you’re using the utility stealths (BP, SR, HiS) you’re not going to proc it often anyway.
It should be made more accessible for /D.
Yea I also just noticed that Hidden Thief is already kinda there under Descent of Shadows:
“Release a blinding powder when you steal or take falling damage. You take less damage from falling.”
So if we added Hidden Thief to Cloaked in Shadow we would be having 2 traits that are very similar and not super useful.
Merging Cloaked in Shadow with Last Refuge or Shadow Protector wouldn’t be a bad idea like you said.
I think I like where Resilience of Shadows is though, because as it currently is, no one ever picks RoS over Shadow’s Rejuvenation and Thief is kinda squishy so it’s nice to give them that.
But then, without Cloaked in Shadow we are down 1 GM trait.
Maybe add Hidden Assassin as a GM trait instead of Cloaked in Shadow. I think this is a strong trait that could add a nice option to the GM traits.
References:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Assassin
Lady Minuit
(edited by Lady Minuit.3186)
What needs to happen is it needs to trade places with Resilience of Shadows. RoS is way too OP as a minor trait and blind on stealth is useless as GM.
Agree 300%. This is the most sensible change.
Second Child
What needs to happen is it needs to trade places with Resilience of Shadows. RoS is way too OP as a minor trait and blind on stealth is useless as GM.
Agree 300%
Then if we take that route, let’s say we move Resilience in Shadows as GM trait and merge Cloaked in Shadow with Shadow Protector or with Last Refuge, then put back Hidden Assassin as a GM minor trait instead of RoS.
I guess that could work too, although I personally liked to have RoS as a minor GM trait.
Lady Minuit
Perhaps it can add stability on stealth in addition to the blind . 1 stack 2 seconds. A psuedo merge with what once was AE
Yea I also just noticed that Hidden Thief is already kinda there under Descent of Shadows:
“Release a blinding powder when you steal or take falling damage. You take less damage from falling.”So if we added Hidden Thief to Cloaked in Shadow we would be having 2 traits that are very similar and not super useful.
Merging Cloaked in Shadow with Last Refuge or Shadow Protector wouldn’t be a bad idea like you said.
I think I like where Resilience of Shadows is though, because as it currently is, no one ever picks RoS over Shadow’s Rejuvenation and Thief is kinda squishy so it’s nice to give them that.
But then, without Cloaked in Shadow we are down 1 GM trait.
Maybe add Hidden Assassin as a GM trait instead of Cloaked in Shadow. I think this is a strong trait that could add a nice option to the GM traits.
References:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Assassin
I like these two points of your comment. First off, while I know that everyone thinks that having Resilience of Shadows as a minor trait is incredibly OP (that and people love to hate SA players, with some even going as far as to say the line shouldn’t exist), I personally disagree. While it would definitely be way too OP under the previous system, do keep in mind that the trait lines have now been decoupled from stats, meaning that we will no longer be getting the meager base defenses that traiting into those lines would normally give. Couple that with the fact that thieves already had the natural defenses of wet tissue and that we are still at our core a burst DPS class (meaning Berzerker’s and Assassin’s probably aren’t going anywhere) and I have a feeling that we’re likely to get even glassier than before. Resilience of Shadows in it’s current state helps to mitigate that and putting it back in the GM spot would just repeat exactly what happened before, i.e. everyone picked Rejuvination over it (I have a feeling that’s probably part of the reason they chose to move it).
I also like the idea of merging Cloaked in Shadow with either Shadow Protector or Last Refuge (some tweaking would have to occur with the latter) and moving Hidden Assassin to the GM slot left vacant. For starters, it will alleviate the current crisis D/D players are currently facing. Secondly, moving Hidden Assassin fits perfectly with the theme Anet seems to be leaning toward with these changes (Moving and consolidating traits so that there is an offensive, defensive, and utility oriented trait for each tier). HA would give players an option for might stacking. This could potentially allow for even greater burst and snowballing, BUT at the cost of the much needed sustain from Rejuvenation of Shadows. Thus, players would be forced to choose between becoming the ultimate glass cannon or sacrificing some power in order to be more well rounded. Meaningful choice, potential for build diversity, and no lower tier weapons sets are being left to hang as a result. Everyone wins in my eyes.
It also important to remember that resilience of shadow is pure defense. There no attack going on when you are hid. It akin to a person having protection up with difference being you can keep attacking with protection. Why is 50 percent less damage taken as one can NOT attack OP and 33 percent less as one does attack not?
The might on stealth trait is GONE and that used to be a pretty decent trait for might generation on its own. ROS is not that OP a replacement.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
What needs to happen is it needs to trade places with Resilience of Shadows. RoS is way too OP as a minor trait and blind on stealth is useless as GM.
Agree 300%
Then if we take that route, let’s say we move Resilience in Shadows as GM trait and merge Cloaked in Shadow with Shadow Protector or with Last Refuge, then put back Hidden Assassin as a GM minor trait instead of RoS.
No, I mean I love Cloaked in SHadow but it should actually be in the master line in my opinion, not in a minor slot, unless it takes place of blinding powder. Thieves are squishy and giving them Resilience of Shadows at minor grandmaster makes sense and gives thieves that extra sustain. I think everyone will come to realise we need it when the expansion comes out, although I would like access to cloaked in shadow somewhere. I would never take it over Shadow’s Rejuvenation or Shadow’s Embrace though
I guess that could work too, although I personally liked to have RoS as a minor GM trait.
Make it the minor. Swap it with the 3rd minor that reduces damage while in stealth by 50%.
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Cloaked in shadow is a worthy GM trait if you play zerk DD, try playing without it, you really cant. I feel that most of this whine is coming from thieves who do not play zerk DD and haven’t realised how important it actually is.
Cloaked in shadow is a worthy GM trait if you play zerk DD, try playing without it, you really cant. I feel that most of this whine is coming from thieves who do not play zerk DD and haven’t realised how important it actually is.
Oh we realize how important it is… So much so that we also realize that forcing us to choose between it and another even more essential trait for D/D builds isn’t fair, since the weapon set was already struggling to stand out.
D/D has been completely forced out of the viable PvP meta and while it is seen in WvW, it is generally viewed as simply an acceptable roaming build, not the optimal one (D/P still reigns supreme in both game modes). The reason we could still use D/D was because of our SA loadout. Adept was Embrace of Shadows, a staple on almost all thief builds. The Grand Master was Shadow’s Rejuvenation. For those that went that deep into the line, the trait was again essential for the sustain it provided. And then for D/D, we had Cloaked in Shadow for the Master slot. For most builds, it was a completely unnecessary trait. But for D/D users, it was a god send that helped to mitigate the fact that unlike D/P, we had to land a melee range attack on a enemy to enter stealth. These three traits combined gave D/D a place in the game. It was a niche place, but it was there. Taking CiS and putting it in the Grand Master slot is akin to saying “Hey, remember that weapon set that you love playing, but whose viability hinged on the perfect load out of the Shadow Arts line for its sustain? Yeah, well we’ve moved one of those essential traits into the same tier as another, so now you have to choose between two traits that you absolutely need to use the set for any purpose beyond novelty”.
What’s more, note that D/D is the ONLY weapon set that is being so adversely affected by this. D/P never needed CiS. It has blinds galore already. S/D might’ve had more use for it, but it is more focused on evasion. S/D players usually went into the Acrobatics line, not SA, and if they grabbed anything from the line, it was EoS for the condi cleanse. P/D normally builds Dire, which gives them more defense than thieves usually have anyway. CiS wasn’t as important to that set and while it was used, it was also switched in a number of cases with Infusion of Shadow for the initiative boost. P/P… Well… yeah. And SB is pretty unanimously seen as a utility weapon. D/D is the only set that NEEDED this trait. And now that we have to choose between it and Rejuvenation, no matter what we choose, the set will be significantly weaker because of it.
And let’s be real… You’re saying it’s totally fine where it is? Seriously sit down and ask yourself if the D/D build you use would be even remotely as effective as it currently is without the sustain from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, especially when compared to other sets that DO have SR because they (unlike D/D) don’t need CiS.
TL;DR: It’s not worthy of the spot it’s in, especially since only one set holds it as essential. What’s more, the set in question doesn’t deserve the massive nerf moving CiS to the GM spot would create.
If we swap blind on stealth with half damage in stealth, people will continue to kitten about it like they’ve always had. I don’t see what good that’ll do. “Muh bild hinged on itz existance”
At least now stealth can be used more defensively meaning that thieves have a shot at being able to tank which has been an impossibility up until now. Blind lasts for 1 attack vs Semi-passive superprotection infinitely has more defensive uptime than blind on stealth. You’ll die half as fast. Is math really that unimportant that people overlook this fact?
Secondly, I think players need to get off of d/x a little more. Thieves actually have alot of uses but the only thing holding them back is the lack of viability of some of the traits and skills. It is possible to become the interrupt king of this game with s/p. In fact I see it as the bane of defiance in HoT. But rarely do you see it used in PvP because only advanced thieves are able to play it effectively. It may not have the spike damage of d/x but holy hell can it shut kitten down (you have 4 interrupts on the weaponset alone). And then there is ninja nurse which is probably going to turn into the thief version of the immortal guard.
Now that arenanet has made half damage in Stealth baseline for SA, thieves can start thinking about tanky builds which means more diversity, something the thief community has been screaming at anet to add for a long while. It’d would simply be nice if players got off the backstab meta explored other builds. Because after the specializations update, dpsing everything down as fast as possible is not the only option thieves will have anymore.
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“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta
(edited by yolo swaggins.2570)
Cloaked in shadow is a worthy GM trait if you play zerk DD, try playing without it, you really cant. I feel that most of this whine is coming from thieves who do not play zerk DD and haven’t realised how important it actually is.
Oh we realize how important it is… So much so that we also realize that forcing us to choose between it and another even more essential trait for D/D builds isn’t fair, since the weapon set was already struggling to stand out.
And let’s be real… You’re saying it’s totally fine where it is? Seriously sit down and ask yourself if the D/D build you use would be even remotely as effective as it currently is without the sustain from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, especially when compared to other sets that DO have SR because they (unlike D/D) don’t need CiS.
Ive played zerk DD since release, and have never needed to go 6 into SA for shadow rejuv, it is a crutch, most people know that, so nothing to ask myself, I can play without it very easily, blinding a 9k evi is far more important than sitting in stealth letting your hp regen, fact is if you spending to much time in stealth as a DD you are doing it wrong anyway…
If we swap blind on stealth with half damage in stealth, people will continue to kitten about it like they’ve always had. I don’t see what good that’ll do. “Muh bild hinged on itz existance”
At least now stealth can be used more defensively meaning that thieves have a shot at being able to tank which has been an impossibility up until now. Blind lasts for 1 attack vs Semi-passive superprotection infinitely has more defensive uptime than blind on stealth. You’ll die half as fast. Is math really that unimportant that people overlook this fact?
Secondly, I think players need to get off of d/x a little more. Thieves actually have alot of uses but the only thing holding them back is the lack of viability of some of the traits and skills. It is possible to become the interrupt king of this game with s/p. In fact I see it as the bane of defiance in HoT. But rarely do you see it used in PvP because only advanced thieves are able to play it effectively. It may not have the spike damage of d/x but holy hell can it shut kitten down (you have 4 interrupts on the weaponset alone). And then there is ninja nurse which is probably going to turn into the thief version of the immortal guard.
Now that arenanet has made half damage in Stealth baseline for SA, thieves can start thinking about tanky builds which means more diversity, something the thief community has been screaming at anet to add for a long while. It’d would simply be nice if players got off the backstab meta explored other builds. Because after the specializations update, dpsing everything down as fast as possible is not the only option thieves will have anymore.
Good post. I agree with everything said. I am getting rather stoked about these changes. There a whole pile of diversity I am starting to see here.
Cloaked in shadow is a worthy GM trait if you play zerk DD, try playing without it, you really cant. I feel that most of this whine is coming from thieves who do not play zerk DD and haven’t realised how important it actually is.
Oh we realize how important it is… So much so that we also realize that forcing us to choose between it and another even more essential trait for D/D builds isn’t fair, since the weapon set was already struggling to stand out.
And let’s be real… You’re saying it’s totally fine where it is? Seriously sit down and ask yourself if the D/D build you use would be even remotely as effective as it currently is without the sustain from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, especially when compared to other sets that DO have SR because they (unlike D/D) don’t need CiS.
Ive played zerk DD since release, and have never needed to go 6 into SA for shadow rejuv, it is a crutch, most people know that, so nothing to ask myself, I can play without it very easily, blinding a 9k evi is far more important than sitting in stealth letting your hp regen, fact is if you spending to much time in stealth as a DD you are doing it wrong anyway…
Can you really say that without having shadow refuge on your bar as a crutch?
Cloaked in shadow is a worthy GM trait if you play zerk DD, try playing without it, you really cant. I feel that most of this whine is coming from thieves who do not play zerk DD and haven’t realised how important it actually is.
Oh we realize how important it is… So much so that we also realize that forcing us to choose between it and another even more essential trait for D/D builds isn’t fair, since the weapon set was already struggling to stand out.
And let’s be real… You’re saying it’s totally fine where it is? Seriously sit down and ask yourself if the D/D build you use would be even remotely as effective as it currently is without the sustain from Shadow’s Rejuvenation, especially when compared to other sets that DO have SR because they (unlike D/D) don’t need CiS.
Ive played zerk DD since release, and have never needed to go 6 into SA for shadow rejuv, it is a crutch, most people know that, so nothing to ask myself, I can play without it very easily, blinding a 9k evi is far more important than sitting in stealth letting your hp regen, fact is if you spending to much time in stealth as a DD you are doing it wrong anyway…
Can you really say that without having shadow refuge on your bar as a crutch?
Well, I play mainly D/D acro without any stealth on my bar. They’re nerfing acro though, so we’ll see how that goes. It’s sort of the same principle though, having that one extra doge to not get hit by the 9k eviscerate which would take ~18 seconds in stealth to recover.
You know i keep seeing people argue that something is grandmaster and it should be minor blah blah.
To me the only problem that can occur is that traits you want may be in the same tier of the line and thus its an either or scenario.
GM, Major, and so on no longer have meaning anymore as its all or nothing now.
So skill strength in categories mean nothing anymore.
You cant just take a couple of points in one trait line to get a skill, you either run that traitline and its full traits in some combination or you dont run it at all.
For example the Vigorous Recovery and Pain Response being in the same category is well interesting as they know the S/D build relies on both.
But they put Panic Strike and Executioner in separate categories within DA and both can be taken.
Both of those are very strong, whether they are GM or not doesnt matter, it has no emphasis what so ever on skill strength anymore but on how much you can combine.
They could have just labeled the categories of traits I, II, III and it wouldnt have mattered.
It also important to remember that resilience of shadow is pure defense. There no attack going on when you are hid. It akin to a person having protection up with difference being you can keep attacking with protection. Why is 50 percent less damage taken as one can NOT attack OP and 33 percent less as one does attack not?
The might on stealth trait is GONE and that used to be a pretty decent trait for might generation on its own. ROS is not that OP a replacement.
I agree with you, and that is why I would prefer to keep RoS as a GM minor trait too, but of course we have to look at all possibilities.
I think I like my previous iteration of the trait line:
- Merge Cloaked in Shadow with Shadow Protector
- Bring back Hidden Assassin as major GM trait.
Et voilà, x/D is saved.
Lady Minuit
(edited by Lady Minuit.3186)
There’s no need to re-swap things around — all they need to do is make CiS to have the same value as Shadow’s Rej. As it is now, it’s way too weak.
If CiS applies 5 charges of Blind (which will make the next 5 attacks miss), then we’re talking about a really good GM trait to rival SR.
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Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.