Guild Wars 2

Setima.8741:

If they change most of the normal skills for all the weapons to be really useful, then even I could deal with losing a good bit of spike damage. How about:
Dagger/Dagger:
~auto attack is faster and the poison lasts longer
~Heartseeker evades attacks during the leap
~Leaping Death Blossom stacks more bleeds and they do more damage
~Dancing Dagger stays about the same but if it hits only one target you can hit the button again within 5 seconds to knock them down for 1 second and remove the cripple effect
~CnD has a cast time of 2 seconds can hit up to two targets within 150 range and gives 5 seconds of stealth

Shortbow:
~Trick Shot fires faster and hits mokittengets
~Cluster Bomb flies faster and the explosion always puts at least 7 bleeds on any target hit or 5 bleeds on anybody hit if you detonate it midair
~Disabling Shot costs 1 less initiative, the cripple lasts 1 second longer and the distance you evade backwards is based on how close they are to you when you shoot. At point blank you’d evade twice as far backwards as you do currently.
~Choking Gas fires faster, the poison lasts 10 seconds, the field lasts 5 seconds and does 25% more damage to players standing in the field.
Infiltrator’s Arrow fires faster, costs 1 less initiative and has a larger radius of effect

Pistol/Pistol
~Vital Shot’s bleed lasts 1 second longer per shot and does about 10% more damage
~Body Shot fires faster, gives them 10 stacks of vulnerability and does 10% more damage
~Unload has a 1200 ranger and fires 10 shots, the final shot applies 5 stacks of bleeding for 3 seconds
~Head Shot’s Daze lasts 1/2s, causes Confusion for 1 second and does 10% more damage
~Black Powder’s radius is larger and the field lasts for 5 seconds. I think this skill should become a ground target attack but that might make it way too good in large group PvP.

And that’s my initial suggestions for the weapons that I enjoy using. I’ll leave out Sword/Pistol, Pistol/Dagger and Dagger/Pistol for now only because I have much less experience with those types.

anything involving buffing the autoattack as a rebalance for nerfing skills I’m vehemently against. Autoattacking is excessively boring.

what appealed to me initially about thieves is that they have the mechanic to choose skills based on what they need at the instant rather than just cycling cooldowns.

Now the class is quickly becoming autoattack central.

Takehome message for Arenanet:

Autoattack for thieves should be what you do when you’re conserving initiative, but it should NEVER be the highest dps skill in your repetoire.

and even if the target survives the combo the Thief is far from beaten; with 9-13 Initiative, up to 2 utility skills and the healing skill left it is hardly an easy target.

I don’t think you understand how the build works… Like, at all… The build that gets the very high damage numbers everyone whines about puts EVERYTHING into backstab. that means taking signets to pop for might, venom to keep the target from moving, and forgoing initiative traits in favor of raw damage bonuses. After the thief performs a buffed up backstab, all they can really afford to do is try to cnd then run away, since they’d die in 2 hits.

People claiming how thief/rogue nerfs in other games destroyed said classes are in denial. Yes, in most MMO there were plenty of nerfs for those classes. There is a reason for this and that is stealth+high burst damage is OP. Simple as that. Rogues in early vanilla WoW were OP as hell and yes they were nerfed. Did this made them a bad class? In no way! Rogues were and are very competetive and effective class in all formats of WoW PvP. Just not anymore at “lol I own you” broken level. In GW2 Thief after nerfs will be a good and viable class as well and hopefully not OP anymore.

Rogues were and are very competetive and effective class in all formats of WoW PvP

And became a laughing stock in PvE that no one wanted to carry thanks to all of the PvP-centric nerfs.

bwillb.2165:

Rogues were and are very competetive and effective class in all formats of WoW PvP

And became a laughing stock in PvE that no one wanted to carry thanks to all of the PvP-centric nerfs.

I am sorry? WHAT? When? Perhaps at some short time spans between some badly tuned patches (pretty much every class had those moments). Rogues were highest DPS class for the majority of Vanilla WoW, they started to be outshined by warriors in AQ40 and Naxxramas due to the fact that warriors scaled better with gear. Later in TBC+ rogues joined the usual Blizzard rollercoaster with DPS balance where every patch some class was better from others due to skills changes and gear scaling – in other words, they were in line with all other classes in term of PvE.

When? How about half of TBC and all of WotLK? I never even bothered to level my rogue past like 72 once I got my druid into the high end content and saw how poorly rogues were doing. I can’t speak to how they’re doing now, though, because I’ve left that game completely behind in response to their nonsensical sad excuse for “balance”, much like the situation brewing here in GW2.

80% of the thiefs I know are warriors now , soon the rest of the 20% ! GG devs ! I got to say warrior 100B = 20k+ dmg ftw ! Farm easy for legendary , no 2-5 shooted by mobs in events ! Thief = useless class in the game !
I agree with most of you guys that posted here ! Other classes that Q.q about thief should L2P !

Rogues were good in vanilla WoW because Vanilla WoW Rogues were basically like a Thief was here until the Signet nerf. But Vanilla WoW PvP was based on the counter class system. Rogues could kill cloth classes like Priests and Warlocks, did okay against leather wearing classes like Druids and Rogues, had a higher chance to lose against Mail classes like Shaman and Hunters and got completely crushed by plate wearing classes such as Paladins and Warriors, especially Warriors since half their attacks were designed around fighting classes such as Rogues with high evasion. It only took a good Warrior 2 Overpowers to kill me back then with my “amazing” 2500 health.

In Burning Crusade Rogues ate nerf after nerf, especially during the “Mace Spec” craze, and the only way Rogues became decent was after a ton of them ran Black Temple and got the Warglaives. In Cata, Blizzard actually stated that the sorry state of Rogues was the main reason they gave them easy to get Legendary Daggers to make up for their crap dps. And now in Pandaland, they’re the weakest class in PvE and PvP as noted by Blizzard upping half their skill’s damage, some by up to 150%.

Anyway, that’s the state of Rogues, and if Anet isn’t careful, it’ll be the state of Thieves within the next few months. Yes no matter the amount of nerfs, the Thief will always have the Hero that sticks with them and makes them look good just to piss people off, but in the end, a broken class will still be broken.

bwillb.2165:

When? How about half of TBC and all of WotLK? I never even bothered to level my rogue past like 72 once I got my druid into the high end content and saw how poorly rogues were doing. I can’t speak to how they’re doing now, though, because I’ve left that game completely behind in response to their nonsensical sad excuse for “balance”, much like the situation brewing here in GW2.

Yup fury warriors outdamaged rogues and got preference on loot over rogues. As it was because of PVP centric nerfs, rogues ended up doing most of their damage as white damage (autoattacking)

It’s not fun to play when your character just stands there and autoattacks.

Ixa.6523:

Of all the classes, Thief’s get the absolute most out of completely dedicating themselves to one aspect.
The class is just simply designed that way. I’m not saying there is no “inbetween” builds. Just that if we build entirely for 1 hit, then we really have nothing to follow that hit up with. It’s easily 45 seconds before we can do it again

You’re right in your assertion that the initiative mechanic heavily rewards synergizing with one ability due to the thief’s unique ability to spam one weapon skill, but I’m very hesitant whenever someone decides to deal in absolutes as it concerns how a thief is “meant to be played”. The fact of the matter is that hybridized builds can be very effective, especially if you utilize things like Triforge Amulet, Divinity Runes, and Might. These kind of stat sources allow you to continue to build towards your primary specializaton (say, a power-based offense) without completely abandoning other beneficial aspects (like condition damage, or defensive stats).

Too much stock is put in min/maxing towards a particular aspect at the expense of leaving some synergies completely un-utilized. Thieves that run >5 stacks of might constantly, for instance, but won’t use Caltrops because “they aren’t a condition build”.

Setima.8741:

~Dancing Dagger stays about the same but if it hits only one target you can hit the button again within 5 seconds to knock them down for 1 second and remove the cripple effect

I really like this idea, not necessarily in the specifics but in the general idea of making Dancing Dagger a more viable tool against single targets. In multi-target situations it is absolutely one of the thief’s most powerful abilities, it’d be nice to see a single-target option.

This is fine if they nerf Backstab, but if they do and only if they do nerf us.
They will need to completely overhaul the Thief profession, because the golden rule for Thieves is: Kill it before it kills you!

If we are no longer able to quickly kill something then there is no reason to roll any build for Thief, because we do not have the support other classes have. If you look at your skill arsenal everything screams DPS DPS DPS DPS IT DOWN.

If they nerf it, i’m very curious on what they will balance in other things to even it out. Starting with higher base health and toughness.

bwillb.2165:

I don’t think you understand how the build works… Like, at all… The build that gets the very high damage numbers everyone whines about puts EVERYTHING into backstab. that means taking signets to pop for might, venom to keep the target from moving, and forgoing initiative traits in favor of raw damage bonuses. After the thief performs a buffed up backstab, all they can really afford to do is try to cnd then run away, since they’d die in 2 hits.

Unless I’m no longer up-to-date the typical Backstab build is 25-30/30/0/0/10-15. For that build you need either Basilisk Venom or Devourer Venom for the Stun/Immobilize and Assassin’s Signet for the damage boost. A Backstab combo with only those skills already take a huge chunk of health away from your opponent; sure, you can put in more practically useless Signets or Venoms for a few more stacks of Might, but you’re better of putting some utility/defensive skills in there to have a good fighting chance in case your opponent survives the combo.
And the high burst damage from 900 range is only one part of the massive complains about Backstab Thieves, the other is that it’s too survivable for a glass cannon.

i’m much more interested i the “other abilities will be adjusted to compensate” part then i am concerned about the “spike damage reduced” part.

the backstab spikes really are unmanageable in certain PvP situations. its not a great design of the class right now. it would be wrong to lower overall thief damage output though. basically the damage spikes need to be flattened out a little bit and the sustained damage and overall utility of the thief class should be improved to compensate. i think it can be done effectively.

bettadenu.5483:

They will need to completely overhaul the Thief profession, because the golden rule for Thieves is: Kill it before it kills you!

I think you’ll find that’s the golden rule for everyone.

bettadenu.5483:

If we are no longer able to quickly kill something then there is no reason to roll any build for Thief, because we do not have the support other classes have. If you look at your skill arsenal everything screams DPS DPS DPS DPS IT DOWN.

Apart from the utilities that scream blind, stealth and mobility you mean? You know the ones that let us choose when to engage and direct the flow of combat (much like for instance CC does for other classes; I’m not saying others don’t have their own mechanics to do the same, but that’s only fair).

Thieves, like rogues in most games, don’t offer that much support for others besides dps, no. Mostly because stealth is a fairly selfish mechanic.
It’s also one of the most useful mechanics to have access to in pvp (rivaled only by clones imo).

@azuzephyr

“Then there’s caltrops on dodge. Oh-My-God, I don’t know how this one ever made it live, here you can stack bleeds up to max stealthing away from damage weaving death blossom in between to stack endurance buff. I………….snip………. I can still never match the bleed application of this spec, caltrops apply stacks all the while you are stood in them, you can reach 10 stacks withing a second, it’s a permeating field lasting 10 seconds, endurance refills within three seconds with boon uptime, all the while death blossom attacks evade damage, dodging to apply cantrops evades damage and massive access to stealth.”

The fatal flaw in this whole argument is that you assume the “Uncatchable” trait is the same thing as the “Caltrops” ability. They are not, the caltrops on dodge from uncatchable do not last more than maybe 1-2 seconds (doesn’t say in tooltip exactly but the duration is crazy short) and has a very small radius. The actual utility skill “Caltrops” does have a 14 second duration but is on a 30 second cooldown. The situation you describe would be standing in that.

No thief EVER stacked 25 stacks of bleed with “Uncatchable”…..ever.

let’s be fair and admit that ppls complain on the folowing combo , not about DMG
The trait combo : hidden thief / hidden killer , when they take steal (4k dmg) backstab 7-8k then cloack and dager 4 k +1 more hit before they see you.
well i do admit that the combo is a bit OP , but is your fault to show your back to an thief. because if the 2 hits that dagger land will not be backstabs combo will hit maximum 10 k DMG. and is able to use the combo once at 40 seconds.
Thief will never TOE to TOE an heavy armor user , and will fail vs medium armor as well if they do not land at least 1 rambo critical.

All it takes is a dodge. Really, it’s that simple. Spvpers are laughing inside.

Personally, these arguments about being a 1 hit wonder are not an excuse. Every class has to wait on cool-downs, but can no where near output that kind of burst damage thieves can with little that can be done to dodge or avoid. And thieves can do plenty of sustained damage when they are fighting with a group.

They just don’t want the combo adjusted because as of now, most who use it never die and always kill their target. I’m abusing now on my thief till its fixed and its awesome.

All these, “its your fault you aren’t paying attention, you have no skills, l2p, have better awareness” comments are just as invalid for WvWvW, sorry I can’t pick out the thieves from the group of 10,20,30+ that jump right in and smoke players, you are right that is my fault for not knowing he’s about to teleport from 1200 range with basil and venom prepped, and not dodge roll the second he CND and steals. I must be getting old, my reaction time cant handle that .25 seconds anymore.

The thief is a stealth burst class, which means they die easy. The burst has already been brought down greatly. Aoe damage pretty much kills the thief unless they get out very fast. What is the point in playing a melee burst in low armor if you take the last of the burst away. Many good players know how to counter a thief and there is not much a thief can do. Any more nerfs will make the profession pointless.

SKuDDer.1860:

Personally, these arguments about being a 1 hit wonder are not an excuse. Every class has to wait on cool-downs, but can no where near output that kind of burst damage thieves can with little that can be done to dodge or avoid. And thieves can do plenty of sustained damage when they are fighting with a group.

They just don’t want the combo adjusted because as of now, most who use it never die and always kill their target. I’m abusing now on my thief till its fixed and its awesome.

All these, “its your fault you aren’t paying attention, you have no skills, l2p, have better awareness” comments are just as invalid for WvWvW, sorry I can’t pick out the thieves from the group of 10,20,30+ that jump right in and smoke players, you are right that is my fault for not knowing he’s about to teleport from 1200 range with basil and venom prepped, and not dodge roll the second he CND and steals. I must be getting old, my reaction time cant handle that .25 seconds anymore.

That’s because they don’t have anything else. The only thing a thief can do at all is one-hit wondering. Their condition damage sucks, their HP sucks, their armor sucks, their ranged attacks suck… They’re not good at anything else but attacking a single target.

SKuDDer.1860:

All these, “its your fault you aren’t paying attention, you have no skills, l2p, have better awareness” comments are just as invalid for WvWvW, sorry I can’t pick out the thieves from the group of 10,20,30+ that jump right in and smoke players, you are right that is my fault for not knowing he’s about to teleport from 1200 range with basil and venom prepped, and not dodge roll the second he CND and steals. I must be getting old, my reaction time cant handle that .25 seconds anymore.

I’m pretty sure this is why people are screaming in your thread that you can’t just QQ about WvW and demand nerfs, because people CAN’T AVOID EVERYTHING.

Guess what … I’ve been killed by 100b warriors that come out of seemingly nowhere in clumps of players much more than I’ve been killed by these mystical backstab thieves. Know why? Same reason. I can’t see them coming. Theres 5 people on my screen doing stuff, I can’t watch all of them. … oh, or worse, that whole “rendering” issue … guess what, I’ve been unable to see classes other than thieves too! Oh noes.

Personally, these arguments about being a 1 hit wonder are not an excuse. Every class has to wait on cool-downs, but can no where near output that kind of burst damage thieves can with little that can be done to dodge or avoid. And thieves can do plenty of sustained damage when they are fighting with a group.

Well, the “1 hit wonder” thing can be taken one of two ways:

- people who spec into the backstab burst build can do that ONE thing and that is it. (I feel this is pretty true.)

- thieves in general are really only good at “jump out, kill fast”. (I feel this is mostly true.)

Sure, you can spec for bleeds/conditions … but everyone can easily wipe those away. Sure you can spec for more gradual, sustained damage … but you’re still wicked easy to kill.

Turning thieves into lower-hp, lower defense, lower-damage warriors wouldn’t be good, and I’m afraid that is where we’re headed. (.. and warriors can still do that crazy burst).

I guess all these topics make me think … what do people think thieves should be? .. and secondly, how is that their niche and still a distinct and useful class?

Yea because the initial component of the burst has no CD. I got you.

I’ve kept my mouth shut about this but I just can’t anymore. The unified cries on the forum, although popular, doesn’t make it right. I wish ANet would take a stance for once, but I understand the majority pays the bills.

But it doesn’t make your argument correct. The infamous combo is quite easy to dodge, especially for those gamers who have seen it enough times (but it won’t be supported here and now). The only sure time you will not dodge it if the thief specs for two venoms, one which is an elite which is now breakable (thanks to recent patch).

Still, you won’t see thieves in wvwvw using any of those venoms because it’s not viable under the circumstances. Meaning his trump card can be dodged, and it gets easier everytime.

Enjoy the nerf.

Shooopa.5632:

SKuDDer.1860:

Personally, these arguments about being a 1 hit wonder are not an excuse. Every class has to wait on cool-downs, but can no where near output that kind of burst damage thieves can with little that can be done to dodge or avoid. And thieves can do plenty of sustained damage when they are fighting with a group.

They just don’t want the combo adjusted because as of now, most who use it never die and always kill their target. I’m abusing now on my thief till its fixed and its awesome.

All these, “its your fault you aren’t paying attention, you have no skills, l2p, have better awareness” comments are just as invalid for WvWvW, sorry I can’t pick out the thieves from the group of 10,20,30+ that jump right in and smoke players, you are right that is my fault for not knowing he’s about to teleport from 1200 range with basil and venom prepped, and not dodge roll the second he CND and steals. I must be getting old, my reaction time cant handle that .25 seconds anymore.

That’s because they don’t have anything else. The only thing a thief can do at all is one-hit wondering. Their condition damage sucks, their HP sucks, their armor sucks, their ranged attacks suck… They’re not good at anything else but attacking a single target.

I have to disagree with your opinion on thief condition damage. I do really well with my evasion focused condition build without the use of stealth or backstab.

@Dominae

I’m pretty sure this is why people are screaming in your thread that you can’t just QQ about WvW and demand nerfs, because people CAN’T AVOID EVERYTHING.

why? everyone who sPvP’s demanded nerfs to the guardian because of retaliation being op’d in sPvP and look what happen? They have gotten to the point now where they actually nerf guardians for sPvP only because of how different the mechanics are (we have different timers/descriptions for some abilities for WvWvW-PvE and sPvP), so why cant they do the same for other profession in WvWvW?

I don’t argue that in sPvP this combo might not work well for thieves(lets face it, this build in a sPvP or tourny match would hurt your team only being able to burst down 1 person every minute in a limited duration match is bad), but in WvWvW, its a totally different story.

Chronic Man.2896:

The thief is a stealth burst class, which means they die easy.

Only if you choose to play it that way. If that is the playstyle you enjoy, it’ll still be viable after changes to backstab.

Shooopa.5632:

That’s because they don’t have anything else. The only thing a thief can do at all is one-hit wondering. Their condition damage sucks, their HP sucks, their armor sucks, their ranged attacks suck… They’re not good at anything else but attacking a single target.

Absolutely true in the case of people that are extremely bad or extremely immalleable at playing a thief.

Adaneshade.2409:

The fatal flaw in this whole argument is that you assume the “Uncatchable” trait is the same thing as the “Caltrops” ability. They are not, the caltrops on dodge from uncatchable do not last more than maybe 1-2 seconds (doesn’t say in tooltip exactly but the duration is crazy short) and has a very small radius. The actual utility skill “Caltrops” does have a 14 second duration but is on a 30 second cooldown. The situation you describe would be standing in that.

No thief EVER stacked 25 stacks of bleed with “Uncatchable”…..ever.

The “Uncatchable” caltrops last 4 seconds and depending on skills and situation you can lay down 2-5 fields of them simultaneously. They’re actually a surprisingly effective tool, doubly so when properly synergized.

SKuDDer.1860:

why? everyone who sPvP’s demanded nerfs to the guardian because of retaliation being op’d in sPvP and look what happen? They have gotten to the point now where they actually nerf guardians for sPvP only because of how different the mechanics are (we have different timers/descriptions for some abilities for WvWvW-PvE and sPvP), so why cant they do the same for other profession in WvWvW?

I don’t argue that in sPvP this combo might not work well for thieves(lets face it, this build in a sPvP or tourny match would hurt your team only being able to burst down 1 person every minute in a limited duration match is bad), but in WvWvW, its a totally different story.

.. but sPvP is supposed to be balanced. It is an equal numbers, team-based thing. No one class should be absolutely necessary (and 1 skill even moreso) or your team fails. That, in and of itself is pretty much textbook class imbalance.

WvW? … chaotic, never fair, never balanced, you play with whatever overpowered gear you have, with rendering issues all over the place making things silly to even play at times. A game mode where it all comes down to who has the highest numbers almost exclusively.

How do you balance things around utter chaos? You can’t take the same approach to WvW PvP as sPvP, IMHO.

Tulisin.6945:

Shooopa.5632:

That’s because they don’t have anything else. The only thing a thief can do at all is one-hit wondering. Their condition damage sucks, their HP sucks, their armor sucks, their ranged attacks suck… They’re not good at anything else but attacking a single target.

Absolutely true in the case of people that are extremely bad or extremely immalleable at playing a thief.

What can they do? Their only status effects are poison and bleed without utility skills, and the skills which apply bleeding and cripple like death blossom and dancing dagger cost a good deal of initiative. Their short bow is laughably weak compared to the ranger’s long bow, and its area effect attacks are way too slow.

Just about everything the thief can do, someone else can do better. The necromancer does more condition damage and has many more effects available, the ranger is much more powerful at range, and warriors and guardians do much more damage toe-to-toe with much less risk.

The thief’s unique feature is the backstab. It’s little wonder why that’s the only thing most people are using – otherwise they’d be foolish not to pick another class.

Tulisin.6945:

Adaneshade.2409:

The fatal flaw in this whole argument is that you assume the “Uncatchable” trait is the same thing as the “Caltrops” ability. They are not, the caltrops on dodge from uncatchable do not last more than maybe 1-2 seconds (doesn’t say in tooltip exactly but the duration is crazy short) and has a very small radius. The actual utility skill “Caltrops” does have a 14 second duration but is on a 30 second cooldown. The situation you describe would be standing in that.

No thief EVER stacked 25 stacks of bleed with “Uncatchable”…..ever.

The “Uncatchable” caltrops last 4 seconds and depending on skills and situation you can lay down 2-5 fields of them simultaneously. They’re actually a surprisingly effective tool, doubly so when properly synergized.

No, they vanish much more quickly than that. I’m using them now and they only stay around for about 2 seconds at max.

Shooopa.5632:

Tulisin.6945:

Adaneshade.2409:

The fatal flaw in this whole argument is that you assume the “Uncatchable” trait is the same thing as the “Caltrops” ability. They are not, the caltrops on dodge from uncatchable do not last more than maybe 1-2 seconds (doesn’t say in tooltip exactly but the duration is crazy short) and has a very small radius. The actual utility skill “Caltrops” does have a 14 second duration but is on a 30 second cooldown. The situation you describe would be standing in that.

No thief EVER stacked 25 stacks of bleed with “Uncatchable”…..ever.

The “Uncatchable” caltrops last 4 seconds and depending on skills and situation you can lay down 2-5 fields of them simultaneously. They’re actually a surprisingly effective tool, doubly so when properly synergized.

No, they vanish much more quickly than that. I’m using them now and they only stay around for about 2 seconds at max.

That is odd, but I can definitely stack up to 4 bleeds on a single mob using only one dodge. Either the caltrops field is taking effect multiple times a second, or it lasts longer than two seconds.

Tulisin.6945:

Shooopa.5632:

Tulisin.6945:

Adaneshade.2409:

The fatal flaw in this whole argument is that you assume the “Uncatchable” trait is the same thing as the “Caltrops” ability. They are not, the caltrops on dodge from uncatchable do not last more than maybe 1-2 seconds (doesn’t say in tooltip exactly but the duration is crazy short) and has a very small radius. The actual utility skill “Caltrops” does have a 14 second duration but is on a 30 second cooldown. The situation you describe would be standing in that.

No thief EVER stacked 25 stacks of bleed with “Uncatchable”…..ever.

The “Uncatchable” caltrops last 4 seconds and depending on skills and situation you can lay down 2-5 fields of them simultaneously. They’re actually a surprisingly effective tool, doubly so when properly synergized.

No, they vanish much more quickly than that. I’m using them now and they only stay around for about 2 seconds at max.

That is odd, but I can definitely stack up to 4 bleeds on a single mob using only one dodge. Either the caltrops field is taking effect multiple times a second, or it lasts longer than two seconds.

I have no idea how you’re managing that because my dodge caltrops only give one stack of bleeding and they disappear very quickly after being dispersed. You’re sure that’s just from the caltrops and not building up from other attacks?

Shooopa.5632:

Tulisin.6945:

Shooopa.5632:

That’s because they don’t have anything else. The only thing a thief can do at all is one-hit wondering. Their condition damage sucks, their HP sucks, their armor sucks, their ranged attacks suck… They’re not good at anything else but attacking a single target.

Absolutely true in the case of people that are extremely bad or extremely immalleable at playing a thief.

What can they do? Their only status effects are poison and bleed without utility skills, and the skills which apply bleeding and cripple like death blossom and dancing dagger cost a good deal of initiative. Their short bow is laughably weak compared to the ranger’s long bow, and its area effect attacks are way too slow.

Just about everything the thief can do, someone else can do better. The necromancer does more condition damage and has many more effects available, the ranger is much more powerful at range, and warriors and guardians do much more damage toe-to-toe with much less risk.

The thief’s unique feature is the backstab. It’s little wonder why that’s the only thing most people are using – otherwise they’d be foolish not to pick another class.

This belies a closemindedness about the profession’s abilities. Thieves have a lot of things going for them between extremely high mobility, great control conditions (cripple and daze abound in some weapon setups), etc.

Shortbow is far from unfavorable in comparison to other professions’ ranged offerings, it has one of the mob powerful AEs in the game, a very solid multi-target auto attack, spammable blast finisher, evade/cripple, and a movement ability. If you were to ask the community at large to rank ranged weapons in terms of effectiveness you’d find thief shortbow very close to the top.

For conditions thieves lack an ability to apply burning, but weakness/cripple/poison/bleed/vulnerability/daze are all readily available, and it isn’t uncommon for me to be able to get them all on a target in a few seconds with S/D.

You’re being too narrow in your assessment of the available profession specializations. The fact that necromancers have some very powerful condition setups does nothing to diminish the thief’s completely separate and unique condition-based builds. Certain thief specs can go toe-to-toe at low risk just as much as any guardian or warrior.

It is fine for you to personally enjoy the backstab playstyle and build your thief accordingly, but your personal playstyle decisions do not (and should not) dictate the range of the entire profession’s abilities. I know some thieves that enjoy a combat medic role brought on via shared heals and stealthed revives, but the community would, rightly, scoff at them if they proclaimed that their playstyle was the only “real” way to play a thief and everyone else was simply deluded.

Shooopa.5632:

Tulisin.6945:

Shooopa.5632:

Tulisin.6945:

Adaneshade.2409:

The fatal flaw in this whole argument is that you assume the “Uncatchable” trait is the same thing as the “Caltrops” ability. They are not, the caltrops on dodge from uncatchable do not last more than maybe 1-2 seconds (doesn’t say in tooltip exactly but the duration is crazy short) and has a very small radius. The actual utility skill “Caltrops” does have a 14 second duration but is on a 30 second cooldown. The situation you describe would be standing in that.

No thief EVER stacked 25 stacks of bleed with “Uncatchable”…..ever.

The “Uncatchable” caltrops last 4 seconds and depending on skills and situation you can lay down 2-5 fields of them simultaneously. They’re actually a surprisingly effective tool, doubly so when properly synergized.

No, they vanish much more quickly than that. I’m using them now and they only stay around for about 2 seconds at max.

That is odd, but I can definitely stack up to 4 bleeds on a single mob using only one dodge. Either the caltrops field is taking effect multiple times a second, or it lasts longer than two seconds.

I have no idea how you’re managing that because my dodge caltrops only give one stack of bleeding and they disappear very quickly after being dispersed. You’re sure that’s just from the caltrops and not building up from other attacks?

Went and grabbed a crab in Bloodtide to test on real quick. This was the result after aggroing it and using one dodge on it.

rook

Still doesn’t justify the upcoming change. I know you enjoy running S/D and that’s cool. Other thieves run strictly SB and then some run condition. That’s great.

That is difficult to determine until we understand what “the upcoming change” is. A properly implemented change to the backstab opener would increase TTK to a more manageable 4-5 seconds while offering more synergy to open up new build possibilities. Exchanging 20 % of backstab’s raw damage for a 50 % endurance boost on BS, for instance.

the main thing that i think many thief players dont want to look at is their mobility and ease of escape.

i keep seeing thief players bringing up 100b, or necromancer condition damage, or what have you.

yet they never even slow down to think that none of these other classes can press a utility skill and vanish from target, or whip out a shortbow and teleport across the map.

anet said over in the necromancer forums that they want the thief to have the easiest way to escape from fights of all classes.

a class cannot have the easiest escape mechanisms and also the highest damage, either burst or condition. its just too powerful.

it becomes small risk for high reward instead of high risk, high reward.

i understand people want to stay powerful, but this is not rocket science. you should not be able to outdamage classes you can also run away from at any moment things do not go your way.

I say go ahead and nerf Backstab, but at least give us some other kittening weapon sets to use as we have the least amount of any class… Give us Sword/Sword, let us use maces. Do something… kitten

Backstab might deserve a slight nerf, but as I’ve said before, the fact that Mug + Cloak and Dagger deals 25% more damage than the Backstab looks like a much, much bigger problem to me.