Guild Wars 2

Valkyrie with hidden killer vs Berserker with Executioner.
I’m just curious on peoples opinions of the 2 armor sets.
Basically comes down to dmg vs ehp.

Anyone done the maths and found a good balance for ehp and dmg?

Valkyrie is total crap because your crit damage is worthless without precision. Full Zerker (weapons, armour, trinkets) with soldier helm, coat, and pants is the best mix.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Building-a-better-D-D-thief/page/3#post3077714

For PvE, the common wisdom is full zerk everywhere to max DPS. In WvW, you generally need to build in some survivability. Valkyrie is one of the few ways to do that without reducing your backstab burst. I have no opinion on PvP.

You can still build up an excellent critical chance, even without Fury.

I usually run PvE but i seem to be constantly taking aggro on bosses and although i can dodge their bigger atks, if i’m taking the grunt of their basic atks my hp withers quickly.

It comes down to roughly 15% Crit vs. 3000 HP, assuming Exotic gear.

If you account for Practiced Tolerance the difference is slightly smaller. Then again, once you account for Hidden Killer (which even most Beserker-builds use) the effective Crit chance is closer again.

In my opinion the benefits of 3000 HP outweigh the benefits of 15% additional crit-chance, especially if you WvW a lot.

Yes, Berserker is better in PvE, not only because of its damage but also because it syngeryses better with various weapon-sets, while Valkery gear is only really great with Backstab builds.

Anyway, if you do PvE content almost exclusively, then by all means stick with Berserker gear. But if you partake in WvW on a regular basis or even find yourself in need of more HP, then Valkery gear is a great choice.

TY Dee Jay, well constructed post. I might play around with my build though. Looks like I’m going to be heading to HoTM later. Thinking that maybe adding some points in acrobatics might have some better returns. That way i can use Assassins Retreat with scholar runes and get some extra dmg with signet.

edit: thinking of swapping from 10/30/30/0/0 to 0/30/10/30/0. Should be an over all DPS and ehp boost.

I find Hidden Killer to be one of the most fascinating traits in the game. Basically, the more you use it, the more powerful your non-precision stats become. However, if you use it significantly less often than you use other attacks, then the resulting drop in damage (due to investing so heavily into crit damage without getting any precision) is absolutely devastating.

Honestly, it’s difficult for me to say which one is better as far as overall damage goes. What I will say is that it depends on how much damage you do with your skills on average overall. If you do 70% of your damage with skills that aren’t BS and 30% of your damage with BS, then precision is going to be a much more valuable stat. However, flip those numbers around, and the effect will be reversed as well.

I have to partially agree with DJ here. If you’re doing PvE, then Zerker is absolutely the way to go (if only because you generally don’t need that extra defense anyways). However, if you’re playing WvW, then I’m going to have to say that it depends on the aforementioned factors.

The idea with Valkyrie is by taking Hidden Killer, it allows you to sacrifice some precision in favor of more HP because your backstab is guaranteed to crit. As others have pointed out, it also means your attacks outside of stealth are not going to be critting as often.

As a general rule of thumb I use, I shoot for at least 45% crit chance, then opt for more defensive stats. I play primarily through WvW, so my decision reflects on that. Depends on what you plan on doing.

From a WvW perspective, I used to stay around 40-45% critical chance with a Hidden Killer build, but honestly even that’s too high. I believe you can go as low as around 25-30% as long as you pick up Furious Retaliation (I) in the Critical Strikes trait line.

I have no Berserker pieces, just Valkyrie/Soldier/Berserker+Valkyrie ascended, and one Cavalier piece being the back item. With a 10/30/30/0/0 build I’m hitting at best around 10k Backstabs on glassy 80’s and up to 12k Backstabs on up-leveled characters all while having 17k health before Guard Stacks and 2700 armor. It’s definitely worth the drop in critical chance because you can easily make that up with traits.

Thinking of running a build like this.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY4YlcmiPHcy4E95Ey2jdqCJKuCOV3jsS+0KA-jUCBYfBE/LyEEQ5mFRjt4qIas6aYqSJV5SQ2bIpBBYO-w
Full serkers its about a 20% loss in DPS compared to meta, but i get alot more dodge, condition removal, ehp and healing. I’ll have to do some testing and see how it goes.

I need to do some tests on hidden killer though. I’ll probably get around to that later though.

edit: Ok so it seems that with 107% crit dmg, 49% crit is the cut off. If you have 50% or higher crit, executioner is better DPS, if your under go hidden killer. Less crit dmg favours executioner.

Another thing to note is that Scholar Runes are significantly more effective in a Berserker-set than a Valkyrie set because you spend a much larger % of time at max. HP. With Valkerie gear Orbs will probably give you more effective DPS.

I think Valkery gear shines especially in the classic x/30/30/x/0 build that is pretty much standard for WvW.

Since you rely way more on Backstab in WvW than in PvE you get the most bang for your bucks out of Hidden Killer. The Toughness you get from the Shadow Arts line also synergises well with the Vitality on Valkery gear, giving you a lot of effective HP.

I still sit at 38% basic crit-chance with my Valkery set up which is more than enough to procc various Sigils and effects. With Fury and Hidden Killer my effective crit-chance is probably well over 50%.

But outside of Dagger Mainhand builds the gear-set is less awesome.

If I could be kitten d I’d get a full Berserker set with Scholar Runes for PvE and put 15 points into Acrobatics for survivability.

Dee Jay.2460:

But outside of Dagger Mainhand builds the gear-set is less awesome.

Well that’s kind of the understatement of the year.

Nobody in their right mind goes full zerk and/or Hidden killer in non-backstab builds.

excellent thread . . . i always had this question . . . please keep it like this.

Well i did the maths. With 107% crit dmg at 50% crit chance, executioner does more DPS then hidden killer. Although hidden killer guarantees your chance for a successful crit on backstab. Use of hidden killer seems to be more suited for PvP rather then PvE so I wont be using it in PvE.

Also more defensive builds would make better use of scholar runes. It’s active at 90%+ hp, with 10k hp, that means you can only lose 1k hp b4 its inactive but with 20k hp, you could lose 2k hp. Defence would reduce dmg, keep you in the 90% hp range longer and healing power would help regen that hp. For example your not losing 50% of 20k hp, your losing 10k hp which would mean a serker build would also lose 10k hp(discounting def ofc)

Anyways, I’m going to play around with a 0/30/10/30/0 build and see how it goes.

Thorp.7982:

From a WvW perspective, I used to stay around 40-45% critical chance with a Hidden Killer build, but honestly even that’s too high. I believe you can go as low as around 25-30% as long as you pick up Furious Retaliation (I) in the Critical Strikes trait line.

I have no Berserker pieces, just Valkyrie/Soldier/Berserker+Valkyrie ascended, and one Cavalier piece being the back item. With a 10/30/30/0/0 build I’m hitting at best around 10k Backstabs on glassy 80’s and up to 12k Backstabs on up-leveled characters all while having 17k health before Guard Stacks and 2700 armor. It’s definitely worth the drop in critical chance because you can easily make that up with traits.

I like to run 0/30/30/0/10 after i get my guard stacks. I can run thrill of the crime and furious retaliation for like 75% fury up time. With valk gear + fury its 70% crit chance.

Infact valk gear is better than soliders/zerkers and aint useless. Most of d/D thieves’s damage comes from backstabs which allways crits if you got hidden killer. And no you cant just think EHP and Attack power. As precison dossnt matter on a hidden killer backstab. And vitality matters more when youre bouncing in stealth due to heavy condtions and chaincondi. allows you to surive a burst/condi chain more. You gotta speak of experince and thinking wisely instead of calculating with a calculator.You prolly agree if you read this whole kitten. But valk + hidden killer vs full zerker + hidden killer on of you got applied fortidute the guard defense wxp trait. Go valk + hidden killer until you get that. Best stats for roaming is: About 3 k attack. 105 % or more crit damage. 2300 armor and 16 k hp (No applied fortidute) 14 k HP (with applied fortidute) WvWvW perspective.

Well my favorite is 0/30/25/15/0 right now. All my gear is zerk except my head chest and pants which are soldier stats. I sit at over 15 k hp and 2.4 k armor. With traveler runes I’m also sitting at 96% crit damage with 52% crit chance.

Right now I use HK instead of executioner because it guarantees the burst even if you do slightly less overall DPS. So if I run with my guild I try to have them call targets and I sit on the edges with SB until I decide to jump into the fray. HK versus executioner is largely dependent on your playstyle.

ATM i think i’m going to go
Serker Jewelry/back
Serker Armor
Valkyrie Daggers

Way i’m looking at it atm is that using Valkyrie over Berserker daggers is less of a crit loss then not running Signet of Agility and since I’m running Signet of Agility i’ll stay around the same crit as other builds.

edit: Also weapons are easier to craft then a full set of armor.

One of the reasons why I choose to go valk with hidden killer over zerk for a backstab thief is because having that big crit opener makes a big difference on how the fight can go

Big Tower.5423:

Infact valk gear is better than soliders/zerkers and aint useless. Most of d/D thieves’s damage comes from backstabs which allways crits if you got hidden killer. And no you cant just think EHP and Attack power. As precison dossnt matter on a hidden killer backstab. And vitality matters more when youre bouncing in stealth due to heavy condtions and chaincondi. allows you to surive a burst/condi chain more. You gotta speak of experince and thinking wisely instead of calculating with a calculator.You prolly agree if you read this whole kitten. But valk + hidden killer vs full zerker + hidden killer on of you got applied fortidute the guard defense wxp trait. Go valk + hidden killer until you get that. Best stats for roaming is: About 3 k attack. 105 % or more crit damage. 2300 armor and 16 k hp (No applied fortidute) 14 k HP (with applied fortidute) WvWvW perspective.

Do not listen to a single word that Big says, he refuses to change his position on the armour debate despite being shown countless evidence and being proved undeniably wrong a billion times. He is completely ignorant of the mathematics of this game and refuses to acknowledge it.

I repeat, IGNORE BIG UNLESS YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR GEAR MONEY.

That being said, please read the link I posted above, Cond, it contains actual hard evidence for the best possible min-max combinations for a D/D Thief running x/30/30/x/x from a long time theorycrafter who actually knows what he’s talking about.

@Incurafy, i’ve already done the maths and have decided hidden killer is only really useful for PvP. Its great for a guaranteed crit but generally speaking is an over all DPS loss.

Backstab chained perfectly accounts for 43% of your DPS, but without infusion in shadows that is impossible.
As stated above with 107% CD, 50% crit is the point where executioner begins to out dps hidden killer. Having less crit dmg, not using infusion with shadows, using any other skill besides CnD/backstab favours executioner.

That being said, i think it would be good discussion to find a happy middle between DPS and EHP. And seeing that it is quite hard for thiefs to hit 100% crit, any defencive gearing will directly affect DPS.

Wait, I thought we were talking about WvW, not PvE, lol. In PvE you just go 100% Zerker with 25/30/0/0/15 D/D + SB and chain with Executioner and that’s been established as the best for over a year.

In WvW Soldier + Zerker is the best and this has been proven in the thread above.

I prefer using Zerker+Soldier with Executioner in PvE, SPvP & WvW. I don’t usually rely on backstab damage anymore (except for spvp), as I tend to enjoy sword more. I swap trinkets around if I need more defense to avoid having to craft multiple types of ascended armor…
Heh, I use a Zerker + Valk setup on my Guardian though, since they don’t need to have defense to have defense… I don’t think that works out as well for Thief.

In dungeon power farming most of your damage comes from basic attacks, and dungeon bosses have tons of health which makes Executioner a very strong trait. Get enough precision to max out crit chance before you look at Valkyrie (I don’t know the exact breakpoint but you don’t need 100% Berserker gear to max out crit chance, so there’s some room for Valk gear in there).

In PvP almost all your damage comes from active skills, and very little from basic attacks. Enemies have relatively little health and Executioner does very little (enemies below half either heal up, turning off the trait, or die to a critical backstab, making Executioner overkill). Hidden Killer is solid gold. Valkyrie gear is great since precision matters a whole lot less with HK, and vitality wins thief duels. I’m hesitant to cut too much precision, however, since you still want your heartseekers to crit consistently.

i like assassin gear. i think its a lil underated. it allows you to drop fury skills which is very useful.

p/p ricochet crit build is quite useful. b est of all u only need 2 valk weapons and rest is beserker/assasin

Well atm going full serkers in a 0/30/10/30/0 build and so far really liking the build. The loss in DPS is hardly noticable. Its nearly the same DPS as running 25/30/0/0/15 without prec/power signets. I’ve noticed a huge boost in survivability, i go down alot less even without using life steal food.

its about 15% less dmg or so.

Travlane.5948:

its about 15% less dmg or so.

According to my calculations if both are equally equipped with same signets its about a 20% loss in DPS.
But putting 10 points in acrobatics allows near perm swiftness, which means you can use scholar runes and free up a skill slot by dropping signet of shadows without feeling like a snail.

I’m actually planning on making a detailed post for this build. Its a great build for people who cant run the meta build. Personally I cant run the meta build, i get downed every 5seconds.

I’m going to offer some really good insight.

First off, this pertains to D/D which I believe is what is assumed regarding the question.

It also depends on how you play, and how you build.

Pure stab/Hidden Killer PvP should be building a combination of both. Moreso valkyrie if you run scholar runes. The condi meta makes toughness kind of pointless, and subsequently DoT’s easily can get you down below the 90% mark very easily if running full berserker.

If you’re not stealth-stabbing in PvP/WvW, then berserker is going to be more worthwhile and will have a severe impact on your DPS. The increased crit chance will perform better, especially when combined with executioner.

I’m also assuming you’re running a non-vitality build, or something along the lines of 20+/30/10+/0/10+

A tankier build in terms of traits will have less use for valk.

I usually recommend a combination of both, though. Precision hits diminishing returns, so a mixture will yield very similar crit chance with simply increased health. And health is not a commodity for thieves, so getting more is a huge bonus.

If you can afford to go without that health, then the question answers itself: go berserker; but if you find yourself dying a lot and questioning your hp pool, then investigate valk until you feel happy and leave the rest at berserker.

I have a mixture of zerkers, assassins, and valk weapons with vitality runes. I have about 15k health and can stab a target for about 7k backstab.

To be honest, you really don’t need to min/max too much in wvw since so many people are terrible. Keep in mind, the typical wvw player will completely eat a killshot, charging the warrior seeing the gun glowing and the knee down.

One question I have would be about combining current exotic armor with some ascended parts.

I see wuvwuv (the celestial crafteds) have higher crit % on two pieces. So it might be best to balance those into the setup for the ‘soldier’ bits? Has anyone checked out the options for say chest/helm/another celestial bits?

If not I’ll open up a spreadsheet tomorrow if I get a chance. General setup atm is a mix of berserk/valk(for guild runs) with travelers. But I am slightly overly tanky as it stand (nearly 20k with stacks).

I run with full Valk armor, ascended berserker rings and Amulet, rest exo bers.
As for WvW, I find 36% crit chance pre buffs to be sufficient.
Depending on the food and bloodlust/guild buffs etc, that will be around 60% crit chance, once fury kicks in. Enough to get plenty of crits when laying down some heartseekers on the target.

valk is generally more valuable with food buffs being based on vit and toughy. at least with hidden killer. zerker with executioner is fine too, but less reliable in almost all situations.

Incurafy.6329:

Big Tower.5423:

Infact valk gear is better than soliders/zerkers and aint useless. Most of d/D thieves’s damage comes from backstabs which allways crits if you got hidden killer. And no you cant just think EHP and Attack power. As precison dossnt matter on a hidden killer backstab. And vitality matters more when youre bouncing in stealth due to heavy condtions and chaincondi. allows you to surive a burst/condi chain more. You gotta speak of experince and thinking wisely instead of calculating with a calculator.You prolly agree if you read this whole kitten. But valk + hidden killer vs full zerker + hidden killer on of you got applied fortidute the guard defense wxp trait. Go valk + hidden killer until you get that. Best stats for roaming is: About 3 k attack. 105 % or more crit damage. 2300 armor and 16 k hp (No applied fortidute) 14 k HP (with applied fortidute) WvWvW perspective.

Do not listen to a single word that Big says, he refuses to change his position on the armour debate despite being shown countless evidence and being proved undeniably wrong a billion times. He is completely ignorant of the mathematics of this game and refuses to acknowledge it.

I repeat, IGNORE BIG UNLESS YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR GEAR MONEY.

That being said, please read the link I posted above, Cond, it contains actual hard evidence for the best possible min-max combinations for a D/D Thief running x/30/30/x/x from a long time theorycrafter who actually knows what he’s talking about.

DPS min-max and damage in actual pvp are 2 different things. All those calculations only show DPS on stationary target. BACKSTAB thief wants his backstab damage maxed, not his DPS on stationary target maxed (im not counting all you heartseeker bunnies, speaking purely about backstab thiefs). And keeping all gear parts with crit damage and main stat power does exactly that. Mixing in more valkyrie parts instead of less soldier to achieve same EHP (lol at your terms which has nothing to do with reality) and keeping max crit damage possible will allways be better for hidden killer WvW builds.

Id say if you are running backstab, go with valkyrie because you already have a 107% crit chance with the build so prec isn’t needed all that much and you cant always say no to more hp.