Vault vs Backstab

Vault vs Backstab

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Posted by: Haptic Repulse.9437

Haptic Repulse.9437

So what’s the deal with vault? Honestly there is no reason to ever even try to use Backstab when you have vault. For simplicity here is a list that goes over all of the benefits to vault over Backstab.

1. Does more damage – I hit harder with vaults than I do Backstabs, that alone makes me cringe.
2. Will never cost as much initiative to use than a Backstab setup in any situation – With Black Powder and Heartseeker combo costing nearly double at 9 initiative and Cloak and Dagger costing 6 initiative (as well as being a very risky skill anyways) it costs less initiative with more damage.
3. Is a 1/2 second evade on top of it.
4. Hits 5 targets instead of one.
5. Is also a leap finisher.

Backstab literally brings no benefit to the table at all, in any form. Honestly Anet, who on your design team thought this was and still is a balanced skill? Does anybody at Anet even play thief, ever? Although I feel like this really puts into perspective the number of nerfs to the Backstab skill over the years which honestly wasn’t ever really an overpowered skill except for maybe when there was no reveal debuff. But honestly people just cry countless times on the forum because a full burst, glass thief was able to one shot them while they were not paying any attention to their positioning or surroundings clearly.

It’s just sad to see how unbalanced and seemingly unplayable this game really is for thief right now. Thief is in such a terrible spot for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Nobody wants us in PvE or PvP because they all know how useless the class is, it’s really sad when you join a match and get told to switch characters and then insulted for the whole match when you don’t. Honestly, why am I even playing? Why am I fighting the odds every single fight I have against classes that do everything better than me except for mobility. That’s the one single thing thief still has left, but now mobility in general is higher across the board for everybody except thief.

In conclusion, I really hope Arena Net takes a look at the thief class and how it matches up with other classes and fixes it. And I hope this pay to win playstyle of HoT, you know, the one where elite specs are way better than base classes, ends soon. Because as much as I love Guild Wars, I will find another game before I support the pay to win mentality that has begun to form. You guys may really want to consider the repercussions of your actions because more gem store items won’t make you much money when your entire player base leaves, despite how successful it has been so far. Take your eyes off the money and turn them to the game again please.

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Posted by: Dagins.5163

Dagins.5163

Is backstab some kind of god skill, so it must hit the hardest across the entire profession?

Anyway, vault is the most telegraphed skill in the game; successfully dethroned eviscerate at it. You cannot chain it into combos with shadowsteps, because it’s an AoE. This two things make it situational, what means backstab is still going to be better at many cases (and worse at some others, obviously).

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Posted by: TwiceDead.1963

TwiceDead.1963

PvP…

I don’t think Backstab should be as powerful as you want it to be. Depending on your approach, you literally get the initiative in combat not necessarily with an initiative cost, you get to make the first move, you get the drop on opponents without any warnings and even though, yes, it deals less damage than Vault, it still deals a considerable amount of damage.

However compared to Vault, it’s not easily defended against. You’ll see a Vault come a mile away (literally) and evade appropriately. You can’t really evade a backstab unless you know it’s coming, which in most cases you don’t unless you’ve already engaged a Thief in combat.

In PvE though, I agree. D/D is outclassed by Staff in almost every way.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

While I play mostly WvW I find that across all of my toons which cover every profession vault is easier to avoid be it by dodge or blocks or in vulnerabilities.

I can to an extent manage the same against backstab but for every vault landing on me by an enemy using that skill there at least twice as many backstabs landing with a person using the same.

Vault certainly has advantages and in particular when attacking clustered and distracted enemies but if all advantage was with d\d or backstab there no reason to use staff.

D\p still does very well in the game. D\d can use some loving but it should not be at the expense of vault.

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

Backstab and D/D do need more out of them. Even just the fact that vault deals more damage than backstab and hits more targets is concerning. Rather than nerfing vault damage, however, we need to buff backstab. It’s honestly lackluster in pvp.

Possible suggestions for Backstab and /D.

1. Reduce initiative cost of CnD to 5, add 240 radius blind from Cloaked in Shadow, increase damage by 15%
This may seem like too much, but this is balanced out by the simple fact that it’s very easily avoided. The reward should be good if the risk is that high.

2. Increase backstab damage by 15%. This could also be “Backstab ignores 15% of armor” Would give it a special edge.

3. Increase damage of dancing dagger by 20%. add 1 stack of torment for X (4?) seconds to each bounce.

4. Increase autoattack damage and heartseeker damage by 15%.

5. Make deathblossom deal more damage. Looking at about 3-4k. Or make it deal significantly more damage against poisoned foes. If anet wants D/D to be hybrid then this is the way to go.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Staff’s damage is very front-loaded and open, thus much easier to avoid than Backstabs, so Vault (and Staff in general) NEEDS to hit incredibly hard across the board to be useful. Backstab has the surprise factor on opening engagements and the unpredictability factor in sustained fights when you’re jumping in and out of view.

There’s not much you can do from a PvE perspective – there is always going to be a weapon that is best for damage, and it doesn’t really matter what it is. It’s the same way for all classes. When the massive power creep for everyone else gets nerfed, Thief will be fine. I honestly don’t think we need any buffs to go with the inevitable nerfs for others, aside from some offensive support (maybe make No Quarter AoE).

From a PvP standpoint, the important thing is that Backstab feels rewarding to land. Metas shift constantly, and we are currently in an old-style meta where everyone is both tanky and somewhat strong offensively. Essentially, everyone is some degree of an old DD Ele. In this circumstance, Backstab doesn’t feel rewarding. So really, it comes down to how other professions get nerfed in the next balance pass. They could do nothing with Thief at all and we could end up being fine, depending on how badly they crap over the others. Revenants are going to take the brunt of it, I feel.

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Posted by: yolo swaggins.2570

yolo swaggins.2570

Is backstab some kind of god skill, so it must hit the hardest across the entire profession?

According to the some of the worst players in GW2 who die to it all of the time, yes. No offense to you OP.

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Is backstab some kind of god skill, so it must hit the hardest across the entire profession?

It’s more about init cost + setup vs damage output…

Though I’m not complaining, now that we have a skill that doesn’t require setup to deal considerable damage.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

That’s the big thing; setup and risk don’t seem to outweigh the benefits.

This isn’t just about Vault, either.

Unrelenting Assault, Gun Flame, True Shot, Unload, and Faith offer similar or better damage yet do so with huge additional benefits such as range and finishers, evades, AOE/piercing, or similar or lower cooldowns.

I have issues with buffing the damage on backstab because frankly right now I think there are way too many abilities than can one-shot kill people or close to it. Backstab was the king in the regard for low-cooldown and low-telegraph single-hit damage, but it’s no longer the case by a mile. Doing so also used to bring quite the cost to the thief; if you wanted to do extreme damage, you had to spec deep into damage and make huge defensive sacrifices. I think a lot of the one-shot skills right now are extremely forgiving to use and work in very defensive build paths. sPvP finally picked up some pace but rather than just adjusting amulets, they brought in busted skill damage ratios, so the extreme power creep has massively affected WvW in a negative way, and has rendered a lot of big-play skills as simply poor.

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Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

a big thing to remember about vault is it not a true eva skill.. it has open frames just before it lands that you set up a intrup on.

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Posted by: bliss.4305

bliss.4305

That’s the big thing; setup and risk don’t seem to outweigh the benefits.

This isn’t just about Vault, either.

Unrelenting Assault, Gun Flame, True Shot, Unload, and Faith offer similar or better damage yet do so with huge additional benefits such as range and finishers, evades, AOE/piercing, or similar or lower cooldowns.

I have issues with buffing the damage on backstab because frankly right now I think there are way too many abilities than can one-shot kill people or close to it. Backstab was the king in the regard for low-cooldown and low-telegraph single-hit damage, but it’s no longer the case by a mile. Doing so also used to bring quite the cost to the thief; if you wanted to do extreme damage, you had to spec deep into damage and make huge defensive sacrifices. I think a lot of the one-shot skills right now are extremely forgiving to use and work in very defensive build paths. sPvP finally picked up some pace but rather than just adjusting amulets, they brought in busted skill damage ratios, so the extreme power creep has massively affected WvW in a negative way, and has rendered a lot of big-play skills as simply poor.

Couldn’t agree more with this. They’re balancing all parts of the game through coefficients (which are universal for all game modes) instead of taking advantage of the amulet system… what a horrible way to handle balance, yet its still how they approach to things.

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Posted by: Redfeather.6401

Redfeather.6401

Did Anet just nerf the damage at some point and not bother adding anything to compensate?

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Posted by: Hitsuke.5304

Hitsuke.5304

Love this… Pre-HoT I never used to see anyone complain about Backstab, yet now we have a skill that actually competes with it for damage (Even though Vault still hits with less oomph) you’re all on here whining.

Does Backstab still hit like a truck? Yes
Is it still exceptionally hard to avoid? Yes
Does it chain well with other skills? Yes

Frankly, some of the suggestions on show here are absolutely idiotic. Especially the ones on offer from alchemyst… I’d have to ask if he’s on hard drugs. 4k DBs? Heartseeker 15% dmg boost? Put the pipe down, seriously.

C&D gaining a blind effect is fine and is something I advocate, but that would be it.

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

Love this… Pre-HoT I never used to see anyone complain about Backstab, yet now we have a skill that actually competes with it for damage (Even though Vault still hits with less oomph) you’re all on here whining.

Does Backstab still hit like a truck? Yes
Is it still exceptionally hard to avoid? Yes
Does it chain well with other skills? Yes

Frankly, some of the suggestions on show here are absolutely idiotic. Especially the ones on offer from alchemyst… I’d have to ask if he’s on hard drugs. 4k DBs? Heartseeker 15% dmg boost? Put the pipe down, seriously.

C&D gaining a blind effect is fine and is something I advocate, but that would be it.

To be fair, vault hits for slightly more, however I agree with your sentiment. Vault is highly telegraphed, can be walked out of, can be interrupted, and costs initiative per attempt. Also vault is balanced around the rest of the weapon set. Looking at backstab and the fact that it requires stealth, we’ll assume 6 initiative in a daredevil build with BPS + Bound. Backstab is 0.4 mult/ini while vault is 0.5 mult/ini. Backstab can be attempted multiple times without spending more initiative. Heartseeker is 0.5 mult/ini at 50% and under. It could be said that whirling charge is 0.7 mult/ini, but requires landing all 3 hits to achieve that. Vault is decently balanced around the rest of staff. D/P has the ability to chase better, and D/D…. well….. we all know D/D needs help (but not backstab).

I’d like to see staff not nerfed down to S/D or D/D levels.

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Posted by: luzt.7692

luzt.7692

15% dmg increase on Heartseeker isn’t even that much, you act like its 150% dmg increase. Are you heartseeking for 10k everytime or something?
Auto-attack is almost as strong as heartseeking above 50%
I’m only heartseeking around 5k(crit) at the golem below 25%
15% increase would be a wooping 750 dmg extra

Too OP!!

May I add, True shot does more dmg, has a 3 sec CD, 1,200 range, pierces targets and doesn’t require the target to be below 25% HP to archieve it. Does take longer to cast.

(edited by luzt.7692)

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Posted by: Hitsuke.5304

Hitsuke.5304

15% dmg increase on Heartseeker isn’t even that much, you act like its 150% dmg increase. Are you heartseeking for 10k everytime or something?
Auto-attack is almost as strong as heartseeking above 50%
I’m only heartseeking around 5k at the golem below 25%
15% increase would be a wooping 750 dmg extra

Too OP!!

“I’m only heartseeking around 5k at the golem below 25%”

Only… Considering that most targets are below 50% HP after a well executed Backstab, Heartseeker is already more than fine as it is now. It’s a spammable skill with a fast execution time that hits like a truck, it also has its “homing” effect and ground targeting isn’t needed… And it’s not even a D/D Thiefs primary source of damage! Heartseeker doesn’t need buffs and anyone who thinks even a 15% dmg buff is fine, is a complete moron.

There isn’t a single skill on the D/D set that needs a damage buff. The only change that’s considerable is adding blind to C&D. It’s the traitlines that need changing to get D/D competitive again.

And yes… We all know True Shot is broken as sin. ANet <3 their Guards & Messies though don’t they.

Edit: Sorry if I come across as douchy, but I’m just sick of hearing people whine about Vault. I’m assuming were all loyal Thieves here so I find it bemusing how anyone could want to see a skill of ours potentially nerfed (I’ve actually seen other thieves suggest as much through jealousy). D/D itself is a great weapon set, it’s just a shame they have screwed the trait lines over that much that its become a pale imitation of its former self… They could rollback Thief to what it once was and it still wouldn’t be as strong as some of the current meta builds on other classes. That’s how far behind we’ve been left.

(edited by Hitsuke.5304)

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Posted by: moje.1863

moje.1863

I wouldnt say people are whining about Vault and its definately not about nerfing staff daredevil. It is about bringing the other builds in line with staff daredevil.

Most of the time i only hit 1 out of 3 Vaults. But why do i miss? Because i pressure the enemy to evade. Whereas in the meantime, another thief in the same situation needs to setup another stealth to “spam” his backstab (may even get his smokefield aoe spammed) and then tries to sneak onto the enemy (in a timeframe of several second which his stealth lasts) whilst that enemy is obviously moving around and cleaving like a mad man to “evade” the backstab, but still capping the point.

Vault vs. Backstab = Backstab is miles ahead of being useless. Even when we are talking about Bots or Afk players (simply still standing targets), a bound steal to vault combo does more damage in less seconds than backstab+heartseeker spam.

tldr; please don’t nerf staff daredevil because its doing halfway fine throughout the meta.
for backstab issue: let alone setting up a backstab and getting to your enemy in time is frkn annyoing for the outcome you get. trying backstabs midfight, meaning you +1 another fight or whilst fighting is hilariously clunky and helps the other player more than yourself, especially if you don’t hit the backstab which you had to invest time to setup properly and perhaps even got killed while in stealth, or just revealed..

(edited by moje.1863)

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Posted by: Haptic Repulse.9437

Haptic Repulse.9437

15% dmg increase on Heartseeker isn’t even that much, you act like its 150% dmg increase. Are you heartseeking for 10k everytime or something?
Auto-attack is almost as strong as heartseeking above 50%
I’m only heartseeking around 5k at the golem below 25%
15% increase would be a wooping 750 dmg extra

Too OP!!

“I’m only heartseeking around 5k at the golem below 25%”

Only… Considering that most targets are below 50% HP after a well executed Backstab, Heartseeker is already more than fine as it is now. It’s a spammable skill with a fast execution time that hits like a truck, it also has its “homing” effect and ground targeting isn’t needed… And it’s not even a D/D Thiefs primary source of damage! Heartseeker doesn’t need buffs and anyone who thinks even a 15% dmg buff is fine, is a complete moron.

There isn’t a single skill on the D/D set that needs a damage buff. The only change that’s considerable is adding blind to C&D. It’s the traitlines that need changing to get D/D competitive again.

And yes… We all know True Shot is broken as sin. ANet <3 their Guards & Messies though don’t they.

Edit: Sorry if I come across as douchy, but I’m just sick of hearing people whine about Vault. I’m assuming were all loyal Thieves here so I find it bemusing how anyone could want to see a skill of ours potentially nerfed (I’ve actually seen other thieves suggest as much through jealousy). D/D itself is a great weapon set, it’s just a shame they have screwed the trait lines over that much that its become a pale imitation of its former self… They could rollback Thief to what it once was and it still wouldn’t be as strong as some of the current meta builds on other classes. That’s how far behind we’ve been left.

Nobody here is trying to get the skill nerfed. The skill is fine, the point is the degradation of Backstab over the years and the sheer level of disparity between the two skills. And the argument against Backstab about how vault is much easier to predict is kind of one sided. I mean, everytime a thief goes into stealth the opponent knows exactly what they’re going to try to do. IE Backstab. A decent opponent can use good positioning, intelligent about faces, and prediction to avod the Backstab or at least a make it land frontally and do much less damage.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Nobody here is trying to get the skill nerfed. The skill is fine, the point is the degradation of Backstab over the years and the sheer level of disparity between the two skills. And the argument against Backstab about how vault is much easier to predict is kind of one sided. I mean, everytime a thief goes into stealth the opponent knows exactly what they’re going to try to do. IE Backstab. A decent opponent can use good positioning, intelligent about faces, and prediction to avod the Backstab or at least a make it land frontally and do much less damage.

Agreed.

That said, I don’t think there’s a single skill at all on the thief that needs a damage buff with things in their current state. The thief has access to a lot of raw damage from numbers, but getting the damage and numbers to stack appropriately is extremely difficult to do without major sacrifices. Some skills like True Shot and CoR are massively over-tuned on other classes.

CS doesn’t so much need a blatant rework as much as a lot of its traits are not very good and don’t offer a real reason to use the line. The big appeals to CS are NQ and HK, with HK taking a lot more precedence for “required” purposes. D/P SS spam and P/P unload spam get more of a benefit from CS as direct bonuses than D/D backstab.

HK as a GM is in many cases not a very good choice, and frankly, feels like it should be offering more than just a single crit, especially since DD runes now give the crit chance. We’ve seen a signature grandmaster trait be comparative to a rune combination, not to mention the sigil capabilities as well. Honestly, a hammer warrior could maintain 100% crit uptime on critical skills via fast hands and DD + Intelligence sigils. NQ is fine as a DPS tool, but a trait being built around revealed to make a build concept functional pigeon-holes the thief into needing SA or DD for defenses. Putting something like a condition cleanse on HK, merging Ferocious Strikes and Keen Observer, moving PT to the minor grandmaster slot (nobody runs sundering or ankle anyways at the moment), putting Signets of Power where PT is, and then putting a new trait to make Stealth skills unblockable would move CS from the excuse for HK to actually being a threatening trait line rivaling DA’s damage benefits but with anti-bunker capabilities rather than just pure damage and CC for blowing up squishies.

Doing so would put CS into a very strong position by allowing the class to decap but also bring immense pressure to what is currently an overly-defensive block/invuln meta with no way for the thief to get its damage in. It also makes S/D a very strong offensive choice through having daze/blind be able to penetrate a critical block.

CnD as a skill needs some loving and I don’t think blind is the way to go about it. The skill is weak because of consistency problems, not because of it getting interrupted or taking heavy damage after use. Consequently I think it’d be too strong to make CnD and stealth attacks unblockable in one trait, but one or the other puts better emphasis on D/P than D/D by a large margin.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

2. Will never cost as much initiative to use than a Backstab setup in any situation – With Black Powder and Heartseeker combo costing nearly double at 9 initiative and Cloak and Dagger costing 6 initiative (as well as being a very risky skill anyways) it costs less initiative with more damage.

Two things to revive Backstab without increasing damage;
1) Bring back Infusion of Shadow (refunds 30% init costs instead of flat 2 init, i.e. init cost of 3 will only refund 1 init and 6 init cost will refund 2)
2) Reduce Revealed duration to 3 seconds

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