Guild Wars 2

Based on some threads praising P/P as a secondary set for S/D primary (my personal favorite so far), I came up with a build I’d like advice on please.

I primarily do PvE and Dungeons. My main weapon set is Sword/Dagger, with Pistol/Pistol as an on-demand secondary for DE support and times when I want to soften up a target from range before laying in with melee. I do NOT like the stealth mechanisms much, or the steals – I prefer flat-out combat/constant movement and repositioning/lots of dodging, as that way I don’t have to constantly worry about Initiative (I tried D/D and it gave me anxiety attacks ).

This build uses lots of venom in the utility slots, with traits chosen to buff them (Deadly Arts 30). Other synergies are Acrobatics 30 as a condition remover, as well as to power my dodge, which is my main damage mitigation – the 15pt. Acrobatics trait returns endurance with every dodge. I also get Might when I dodge as well. ALSO on dodge, I use the 10pt. Trickery skill to lay caltrops – these fire Signet of Malice multiple times when mobs walk over them, providing a constant stream of healing.

If I get in over my head melee-wise I can use Sword #2 to Shadowstep away and go back to P/P to re-apply venoms and, if needed, retreat.

Here’s a link to the build (copy and paste to the URL line):

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mmkMMmzz0ovwxMovMxmx9MxaVRqMRqc

Comments? Suggestions? Any obvious synergies I’m forgetting/missing?

Umm… Okay, I’ll admit that I’m inherently biased since I don’t think that a Venom spec is worth it unless you’re commiting into Venomous Aura as well. Having said that, here’s my opinions from what you’ve got linked.

1) I don’t like your choices for Deadly Arts in the 10 pt & 30 pt slots. You should immediately switch your 10 pt slot to Venomous Might. Without even looking at +% Boon gear, you’d be getting x2 Might stack @ 26 seconds every time you use a Venom skill. Venomous Might has great synergy with Acrobatics, so it baffles me about why you’re not using it. Then for your 30 pt slot, a 60 second cool down proc isn’t the most impressive choice. I’d really suggest looking for something else to take in the Deadly Arts tree.

2) I find your 20 pt Acrobatics choice questionable and I really dislike your 30 pt Acrobatics choice. Now since you’re not running condition removal (via your Heal slot or through Signet of Agility) beyond Sword #2, I can understand the reasoning for the 20 pt choice. So I’ll leave that one alone. But your 30 pt one is really not that most useful. Acrobatics is all about +Initiative generation, yet you’re not using a single trait that gives you that advantage. If I were you, I’d seriously re-think the 30 pt choice and switch it out for something like +2 Init every 10 seconds or +3 Init every weapon swap.

I used to run a might venom build but stopped since the venoms were really buggy and I found that I prefer other utility spells. I like haste + singet that gives power + the one that gives precision + thieves guild. I find you can get quite a bit of might (around 12 stacks) on your own, but really it’s just more worth it to trait to other things. However, I also like to play WvW and kill a single target as fast as possible. This is probably a better overall build for PvE

Are you intending to take Skale Venom (Weakness, Vulnerability) or Spider Venom (Poison, Weakness with a trait you already have) for your Dry-land utility set? Because I would heavily recommend taking Spider Venom. It would also make your choice of Deadly Arts V (33% bonus poison duration) make sense.

If you do want Skale instead of Spider no matter what, you really should change your 10 point in Deadly Arts, since you have no source of poison other than your steal.

I would suggest taking a stunbreaker in your 7 slot, especially for dungeon play where getting knocked down by a boss / champion can lead to a quick death. Shadowstep is a pretty good choice, and Roll for Initiative is a nice panic button, especially if you tend to hover around 3-5 initiative during fights.

Edit: I guess you could be intending on Acrobatics XI being your stunbreaker, but the 60 second cooldown and generally unpredictable nature of procs like that (Goes off on an AoE 1 second stun when the boss is focusing on someone else, then isn’t available when it charges, knocks you to the ground and starts killing you) I really think you should have a backup gtfo button.

Venom advice for pve is dont do it.

venoms are a big waste of utility slots for things that are actualy useful in a dungeon, (ie shadow refuge, smoke screen and scorpion wire).

unless your group is totally devoid of someone applying poison, which is rare as most necros, rangers and thieves will keep your target perma poisoned, the poison venom only adds duration to whats already on the boss not any additional damage or utility.

the chill venom is basically a worthless condition also. it only affects skills if they are cast while the mob is under its effect, which is very short and mobs attack with skills extremely slowly. if you are lucky you will increase 1 skills recharge one time. it isnt noticeable. The other effect of chilled is a snare and bosses cant be snared with regularity.

root venom, same thing, bosses wont be rooted or if you get it to land, big deal…..it stays put for 2 sec of every 36/45.

venom share is absolute trash unless your entire groups stack on you when you trigger the venom. summon your thieves guild and note how far away from you they stand when they appear. That is the range of venom share, it basically melee range and under normal circumstances will never affect another party member.

venoms and traps are both horribly implemented skill lines and complete wastes of utility real estate in their current iterations.

Crit dmg is the only way to go as thief in dungeons atm.

Ah… see this is why I posted in here.

My first bad asumption was that the 10pt. deadly arts Trait would apply to ALL venoms, but reading more carefully I see that it would only apply to Spider Venom (which specifically poisons as a result of the skill). In that regard, Venomous Strength in the 10pt. slot does make a lot more sense, I agree.

I also was indeed relying on Acrobatics XI (Hard to Catch) to clear Disables as it automatically procs the moment I get disabled any way, but I agree the 60 sec. cooldown had me a bit worried. Need to ponder that, or just try it in a few real-life situations and see if I face plant too many times. Honestly, in Dungeons, I expect I’ll usually be at range with P/P using various envenomed pistol #1 spam (which also causes bleeding) and #2 (which adds weakness). I’m also a big fan of ranged attacks that cause Daze from my Ranger, which I get with Pistol#4 (Headshot) – I’ve gotten pretty good at interrupting any big charge-up type attacks using dazing shots, and want to keep using this mechanic on my Thief. I figure that I don’t usually get a ton of disable effects on my when I Dungeon with my Ranger due to being at range and assumed this would also be true with my Thief.

Acrobatics VIII (Pain Response) is currently the only thing I have to remove conditions like bleed/poison/burning, which concerns me, I agree… Yes, Sword#2 has a one-condition removal, but I understand that it might not be up when I need it. Ideas?

Last, yes I understand that Acrobatics has a lot of Inititive-building traits (which I’ve avoided), but obviously that shows that it’s not “all about” Inititive, particularly when my plan is to rely on non-initive attacks like basic sword and pistol attacks (beefed up with various venom- and trait-based buffs/debuffs to give them some heft) to do the “heavy lifting”. I understand this is not the typical way to fight with a Thief – if I wanted to micromanage my Init. I’d just go D/D with a SB backup like 99 out of 100 other Thieves out there. I’ve seen other build threads that relied on this “alternative” Thief mechanic with good reported success, and I have to admit that a ssoon as I switched from D/D to S/D as my main weapon selection I started having a lot more fun in PvE, which is where this build came from. I understand I won’t be “maximally efficient” in Dungeons and I’d likely be a fine red mist in PvP, but I really couldn’t care less about winning against other players. Mainly trying to give myself lots of utility in all the various PvE/story/Dungeon environments.

To that end, here’s the modified build (uses Shadow Refuge which I ALMOST went with, plus switches out a few utilities and Traits, based on comments here): http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mmkmzMMz0ovFMMov0xmx9MxamRbMRqc

Thanks for the tips!!

Malvagite.3254:

the chill venom is basically a worthless condition also. it only affects skills if they are cast while the mob is under its effect, which is very short and mobs attack with skills extremely slowly. if you are lucky you will increase 1 skills recharge one time. it isnt noticeable. The other effect of chilled is a snare and bosses cant be snared with regularity.

This is not how chill works. Chill makes skill timers recharge 66% more slowly. So if you chill a player who has a skill with 30 seconds left on its recharge, you delay that recharge and make it take even longer for the skill to be available again. I am not certain if PvE mobs use this same timer system for their skills, but it is possible.
As to ‘snared’, it’s a slightly stronger version of cripple, that I believe stacks with cripple, so that a monster moves at 1/6th its regular speed. Which can be enough to keep a boss from catching someone who’s used up their endurance already.

I won’t argue that Ice Drake Venom is a great choice, since I feel like it has a very short duration, but Chill is a useful condition, even if only for the way it can outclass Cripple.

Malvagite.3254:

That is the range of venom share, it basically melee range and under normal circumstances will never affect another party member.

Unless you run at an ally or two when you press the button. It’s not like your party has to do the positioning for you. Besides, venom share isn’t an aspect of this build in any way.

EDIT: Oh hey the OP posted again!

I’m still biased against your use of Signet of Shadows, especially since you already have Pistol 5. Signet of Agility is a great way to clear conditions in a group setting, between its fairly short cooldown and the ease of cleansing about 3 conditions. But really, how much you need that condition removal will depend on the fight, and personal experience. I was also kind of hoping that you’d resist the siren call of Shadow Refuge, but it is a really good skill.

Softspoken.2410:

Chill makes skill timers recharge 66% more slowly. So if you chill a player who has a skill with 30 seconds left on its recharge, you delay that recharge and make it take even longer for the skill to be available again. I am not certain if PvE mobs use this same timer system.
As to ‘snared’, it’s a slightly stronger version of cripple, that I believe stacks with cripple, so that a monster moves at 1/6th its regular speed. Which can be enough to keep a boss from catching someone who’s used up their endurance already.

Yep, this is exactly why I had Ice Drake Venom in the initial build, but I very nearly had Shadow Refuge in that slot when I first put the build together. I have replaced it in the current linked build, as I remembered that you can do other things besides emergency rezzing with the Refuge (unmolested harvesting in PvE comes to mind, as well as a good “oh crap” button since I have no other source of Stealth.

ImagoX.4718:

Softspoken.2410:

Chill makes skill timers recharge 66% more slowly. So if you chill a player who has a skill with 30 seconds left on its recharge, you delay that recharge and make it take even longer for the skill to be available again. I am not certain if PvE mobs use this same timer system.
As to ‘snared’, it’s a slightly stronger version of cripple, that I believe stacks with cripple, so that a monster moves at 1/6th its regular speed. Which can be enough to keep a boss from catching someone who’s used up their endurance already.

Yep, this is exactly why I had Ice Drake Venom in the initial build, but I very nearly had Shadow Refuge in that slot when I first put the build together. I have replaced it in the current linked build, as I remembered that you can do other things besides emergency rezzing with the Refuge (unmolested harvesting in PvE comes to mind, as well as a good “oh crap” button since I have no other source of Stealth.

Well, you do have a dagger offhand. But yes, Shadow Refuge is amazing.

Softspoken.2410:

Well, you do have a dagger offhand. But yes, Shadow Refuge is amazing.

OK, true enough, but honestly I mainly use Cloak and Dagger as soon as it’s up to keep as much Vulnerability on the target as possible as part of my overall “debuff as much as possible” strategy – I honestly forgot about the Stealth!

Burn.5401:

Crit dmg is the only way to go as thief in dungeons atm.

In what are venom builds good at?

pro tip. play a warrior.

ImagoX.4718:

Honestly, in Dungeons, I expect I’ll usually be at range with P/P using various envenomed pistol #1 spam (which also causes bleeding) and #2 (which adds weakness). I’m also a big fan of ranged attacks that cause Daze from my Ranger, which I get with Pistol#4 (Headshot) – I’ve gotten pretty good at interrupting any big charge-up type attacks using dazing shots, and want to keep using this mechanic on my Thief. I figure that I don’t usually get a ton of disable effects on my when I Dungeon with my Ranger due to being at range and assumed this would also be true with my Thief.

Mainly trying to give myself lots of utility in all the various PvE/story/Dungeon environments.

Autoattack of pistol (a.k.a vital shot) is incredible slow and even with venoms is a bad move to think use it like a main source of damage or support. Attack #2 cost a lot of inicitive and is slow too, is good to stop a boss in some dungeons (like in fractals) but is realy bad for apply vulnerability because each shoot apply 5 stacks for only 3 seg. (1,5 seg if the target is a champion or legendary) and is slow enough to be unsustenible.

If you reaaaally want to use p/p in dungeons and be usefull for you team then use ricochet (Trickery X) and smoke screen, the blindness pass fron one traget to other and the bleed from Vital shoot and Sneak attack too. Also if you use Headshoot (pistol 4) with ricochet you have a chance to stun more than 1 target with only one shoot (even 4 target if godess of luck is beside you).

The only venom that i use in dungeons is Devourer Venom, and only in some boss figths (mostly fractals bosses like Mossman o the dredge-machine one) but the long CD of venoms make then very bad for help anybody in dungeons or any pve content at least you are using the venomus aura trait.

I played venoms builts in pve for like 5 months (my guild was very patient with me and all my experiments in dungeons), then i realize that even traps are better and funnier to use that venoms in pve, so i leave it to only to use them in WvW and only in zerks AND only with Venomus aura.

Edit: skale venom for Devourer Venom