Guild Wars 2

Venoms are mostly about conditions, and half of them do damage. But venom traits lock you out of condition damage.

Traiting yourself for venoms nets you power, condition duration, toughness, and healing power. Venomous Power grants some quick might, but this doesn’t make up for the deficit in condition damage. I can’t help feeling that this lack of damage synergy is a critical part of why so many people view venoms as a “bad build.”

This a tricky problem. Venoms work great with their traited minor attributes, (condition duration and healing power), but have no use for the major attributes, (power and toughness).

I have hope, though. There is room for one more venom trait in the Shadow Arts line.

So, create a new trait:

• Venomous Adaptation
  • For each venom on your skillbar: lose (x) Power and (x) Toughness, and gain (x*2.5) Condition Damage.

Some shuffling might be required, but that’s another topic.

Are venom’s focus really Condi damage? True most of them apply conditions, but only two of them actually damage. I figured they were more about Control because 4 of them have effects that debilitate/discourage movement and the last utility one suppresses healing.

A venom build is not really about condition damage. Venom is for hybrid builds imo.

Dual.8953:

Are venom’s focus really Condi damage? True most of them apply conditions, but only two of them actually damage. I figured they were more about Control because 4 of them have effects that debilitate/discourage movement and the last utility one suppresses healing.

QFT

It’s all about control. You don’t need venom for condition damage build.

I see here a very common misconception. The venom skills are mostly about control. A venom build is a rounded balance of control, damage, and support. You have to look beyond the skills to their traits and traited attributes, and how it works as a whole.

The control aspects of venom skills are only medium tier, and are matched with medium tier damage from high-power/no-crit attacks and a couple of damage conditions. Add medium-tier support from letting allies hinder their own targets, share your might stacks, and recover a little through life-stealing and the new healing venom. It’s very well-rounded.

Venom thieves are definitely not about stopping power—we’ll leave that to hammer warriors and mesmers—instead, they are about managing the long fight.

The power attribute helps some melee builds peck away at their hindered foes, but ranged thieves depend more on bleeding, boosted with condition duration to stack up and do the work.

Even without bleeds, the poison and especially torment just aren’t going to do their jobs well without condition damage. Nobody’s going to bother holding still to avoid torment damage when it’s ticking away in pitiful digits. The poison only reduces healing, without giving them any reason to use that healing in the first place.

If everyone is trying to play venoms up for their control aspects alone, I think I see another reason why so many people complain about them being weak.

Gulesave.5073:

~snip~
If everyone is trying to play venoms up for their control aspects alone, I think I see another reason why so many people complain about them being weak.

I’m sorry to disagree but both the short duration and the long cooldown of the venom makes it a horrible choice for condition damage build.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m sorry to disagree but both the short duration and the long cooldown of the venom makes it a horrible choice for condition damage build.

Agreed. Venoms are a rounded hinderance, pressure and maintenance build using a touch of condition damage among several other factors. Currently, the condition damage is just too small, especially since the two damaging venoms are intended to exert passive control via their damage.

Add all the non-venom damaging conditions such as the abundant bleeding and even extra poison in many ranged builds, plus anything you get from sigils or runes, and condition damage will indeed help apply some pressure to your slowed opponent between all your mid-power attacks.

Also, this is about flexibility. Venoms should be useful with every weapon type. A melee thief can make better use of the power attribute we get from traiting, while a ranged thief instead needs condition damage just to make their weapon skills half as effective as they’re intended. This becomes a gross missed opportunity for build diversification, and a problem in promoting venoms as a viable build outside the single function of extended lockdown, which is of limited use outside PvP.

venom skills have 3 cc and 2 conditions
skale and spider for condition dmg and devourer and ice for cc (immobilized and chill)

about condition if you spec for it you can achieve 1800-2000 during fights which is high for thief gameplay

the problem is i dont see many power builds using venoms and many condition builds dont using something else instead of venoms thus leaving the trait lines bit useless

Gulesave.5073:

Venoms are mostly about conditions, and half of them do damage. But venom traits lock you out of condition damage.

Traiting yourself for venoms nets you power, condition duration, toughness, and healing power. Venomous Power grants some quick might, but this doesn’t make up for the deficit in condition damage. I can’t help feeling that this lack of damage synergy is a critical part of why so many people view venoms as a “bad build.”

This a tricky problem. Venoms work great with their traited minor attributes, (condition duration and healing power), but have no use for the major attributes, (power and toughness).

I have hope, though. There is room for one more venom trait in the Shadow Arts line.

So, create a new trait:

• Venomous Adaptation
  • For each venom on your skillbar: lose (x) Power and (x) Toughness, and gain (x*2.5) Condition Damage.

Some shuffling might be required, but that’s another topic.

Biggest part of condition damage comes from gear, not from traits. Same as with any other stat.

I’d be happy if they added passive effects (like sigils).

For instance, have a base 10% chance to proc the venom on your bar per hit (with a short CD, of course)

Or add other venoms. DAoC had a venom that upped the chance to miss with attacks.

Currently, I see little reason to use venoms, and don’t see a time where I might.

Gulesave.5073:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m sorry to disagree but both the short duration and the long cooldown of the venom makes it a horrible choice for condition damage build.

Agreed. Venoms are a rounded hinderance, pressure and maintenance build using a touch of condition damage among several other factors. Currently, the condition damage is just too small, especially since the two damaging venoms are intended to exert passive control via their damage.

Venomous Aura is directly responsible why venom is so horrible. You may perceive that the condition damage is too small only because you are not looking at the bigger picture. In a group setting where boons are shared, having a 25 stack of Might, plus 25 stacks of Corruption, then sharing your venom via Venom Aura makes the total condition damage over the top. The reason is that not only the Thief is applying the venom but 5 other people also. So a single shared Spider Venom will apply 25 stacks of Poison.

So the real problem with venom, and the reason behind it’s horribleness, is Venom Aura.

Add all the non-venom damaging conditions such as the abundant bleeding and even extra poison in many ranged builds, plus anything you get from sigils or runes, and condition damage will indeed help apply some pressure to your slowed opponent between all your mid-power attacks.

If that is the case, what’s the point of your suggestion?

Also, this is about flexibility. Venoms should be useful with every weapon type. A melee thief can make better use of the power attribute we get from traiting, while a ranged thief instead needs condition damage just to make their weapon skills half as effective as they’re intended. This becomes a gross missed opportunity for build diversification, and a problem in promoting venoms as a viable build outside the single function of extended lockdown, which is of limited use outside PvP.

Adding another trait wouldn’t necessarily promote diversity and flexibility. All it will ever do is add functionality on the currently existing builds. Just because your proposed trait is implemented doesn’t mean that a condition build will suddenly shift to add more power or crit or healing power. It is more than likely that a condition build will stay as is because it is now even better.

EDIT: Corruption not Bloodlust