Guild Wars 2

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmTybvMeAU4

Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TVTDwAUVSc4BAk4EA8U52LVbwcIAApHg3+DAMBpQJokjAQM1EirJgUAlLMC-w

The video features some outnumbered roaming footage and duels against better players. I’m posting it here primarily to urge players to adopt 20606 as the new meta for D/D. I see a ton of D/D videos featuring the same old 26600, and I think these videos hurt new players trying to learn thief because 26600 is incredibly limited. For D/D, I believe 20606 is better than 26600 in almost every scenario.

No critical strikes?

In the current WvW meta, it’s a complete myth to think thieves need critical strikes. All thieves get a ton of damage from fire/air proc’s, and thrill of the crime/pack runes/WvW gear allow you to maintain very high crit chance without critical strikes. It’s true that your backstabs will hit lower, but your sustained damage is higher because trickery allows you to engage more often, strip protection, and apply more poison. In addition, the higher general crit chance allows you to proc fire/air more often, without relying on Hidden Killer.

What’s more, there are some builds that 26600 just cannot beat, given equal skill: D/D eles, celestial engi’s, condi warriors, regen rangers, medi guards, trickery thieves, and more. This is because 26600 doesn’t offer any boon strip, applies subpar poison duration, and simply can’t engage as often, due to the 35 second steal. And missing CnD’s hurts a lot more on 26600 due to having less initiative.

In teamplay, it’s immediately obvious why trickery heavy thieves contribute more than non-trickery heavy thieves. The only scenario in which 26600 might be better than 20606 is if you expect only to be able to land one burst before peeling.

Better than D/P and S/D?

Probably not. D/D still relies on landing CnD’s, and this ultimately limits the build. D/P and S/D don’t need shadow arts to survive and can thus trait into more damage. I think 20606 D/D has similar burst to 20606 S/D, less sustain/utility, but more finishing potential due to heartseeker and backstab. This build offers more burst and sustained damage than 26600 D/P builds, but less damage and utility than 26006 or 60206 D/P builds.

Hahaha nice man. Aikijinx got rekt.

I’ve been using 20606 dp for awhile now in WvW. There is not a class or build too difficult to take down. Hell ive even won a 1v7v7. The sheer amount of utility you have is unbelievable. Being able to interrupt resses mid stomp with steal has win an in umerable amount of 1v2s/3s, and being able to interrupt an eles ether renewal through armor of earth has also won me multiple 1v1s. Its an amazing build, and for anyone curious i definitely suggest trying it. Never tried d/d before, you just can’t do anything compared to dp :/ dual wielding daggers looks so bad as tho so props to those who pull i off.

My gear setup is also slightly different from yours. I opt for less health and crit chance in favor of more ferocity and toughness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TlCFABA8AAuSJISK/eU9HBOBARcIAqZ/hM0Bkm2gFOCAkCochRA-w

Carpboy.7145:

I’ve been using 20606 dp for awhile now in WvW. There is not a class or build too difficult to take down. Hell ive even won a 1v7v7. The sheer amount of utility you have is unbelievable. Being able to interrupt resses mid stomp with steal has win an in umerable amount of 1v2s/3s, and being able to interrupt an eles ether renewal through armor of earth has also won me multiple 1v1s. Its an amazing build, and for anyone curious i definitely suggest trying it. Never tried d/d before, you just can’t do anything compared to dp :/ dual wielding daggers looks so bad as tho so props to those who pull i off.

My gear setup is also slightly different from yours. I opt for less health and crit chance in favor of more ferocity and toughness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TlCFABA8AAuSJISK/eU9HBOBARcIAqZ/hM0Bkm2gFOCAkCochRA-w

the only reason you cant compare anything to d/p is because of stealth access at literally any time, it doesn’t really take a lot of ‘l33t ski11z’ to play tbh

You know, you could run both and be 26006.

Elitist.8701:

Hahaha nice man. Aikijinx got rekt.

I didn’t get “Rekt”

It’s funny because I remember this fight, and i remember the conditions i was playing under. Which i wont mention, but good fight anyway Mango.

Carpboy.7145:

I’ve been using 20606 dp for awhile now in WvW. There is not a class or build too difficult to take down. Hell ive even won a 1v7v7. The sheer amount of utility you have is unbelievable. Being able to interrupt resses mid stomp with steal has win an in umerable amount of 1v2s/3s, and being able to interrupt an eles ether renewal through armor of earth has also won me multiple 1v1s. Its an amazing build, and for anyone curious i definitely suggest trying it. Never tried d/d before, you just can’t do anything compared to dp :/ dual wielding daggers looks so bad as tho so props to those who pull i off.

My gear setup is also slightly different from yours. I opt for less health and crit chance in favor of more ferocity and toughness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TlCFABA8AAuSJISK/eU9HBOBARcIAqZ/hM0Bkm2gFOCAkCochRA-w

I’ve tried 20606 D/P, but find that I just don’t need the shadow arts. I’d opt for 26006 or 60206 to contribute more burst to my team. 20606 on D/P just doesn’t hit very hard, especially against bunkers.

alchemyst.2165:

You know, you could run both and be 26006.

That’s true, but I’d only run 26006 if I had very skilled bunkers supporting me. 26006 on D/D is extremely painful because you pretty much have to be in melee range, and having no blind on stealth means your enemy is free to aoe around himself, even if you land your CnD. It’s also very difficult to solo roam on 26006 D/D. That said, I have been trying 40406 recently with Improvisation or Dagger Training, which I also like.

AikijinX.6258:

Elitist.8701:

Hahaha nice man. Aikijinx got rekt.

I didn’t get “Rekt”

It’s funny because I remember this fight, and i remember the conditions i was playing under. Which i wont mention, but good fight anyway Mango.

Hey, good fight. I didn’t post this video to chest-thump or anything. You happened to be the only S/D thief I dueled using this set up recently, and I wanted to showcase a fight against an S/D thief.

Im not sure you are right.Yes you can kill with 2/0/6/0/6 but 2/6/6/0/0 you get a hell lot more dmg,and not for using hidden killer,for using executioner.if so happens you get yourself in a mirror fight against another D/D thief playing 2/6/6 you will see why it is better imo.Think about the dmg HS can do with executioner or final backstab.

20606 has been around for a LONG time. It sucks people are starting to talk about it b/c only a select few knew about it originally.

Sandrox.9524:

Im not sure you are right.Yes you can kill with 2/0/6/0/6 but 2/6/6/0/0 you get a hell lot more dmg,and not for using hidden killer,for using executioner.

The only scenario where 26600 would be better is if you only expect to land one burst. As I’ve said, 20606 has better sustain damage because you strip protection, apply more poison, gap close more often, and proc fire/air more easily. This is readily evident in the fact that 26600 won’t beat regen rangers, d/d eles, etc. of equal skill, whereas 20606 has a chance.

Sandrox.9524:

if so happens you get yourself in a mirror fight against another D/D thief playing 2/6/6 you will see why it is better imo.Think about the dmg HS can do with executioner or final backstab.

By your request, here’s a short video of my alt dueling my guildie, both using D/D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAYemuDmRLg

My alt is geared in exotic weapons/armor and yellow/green trinkets. My guildie is wearing full ascended. The first duel is my 20606 vs. his 26600. The second duel we’re both running 20606.

As you can see, 20606 has the advantage in a mirror D/D fight because of the daze, shorter cd steal (shorter cd mug), vigor, and easier fire/air proc’s. Even though I’m at a huge gear disadvantage, my build makes the fight much easier.

T raw.4658:

20606 has been around for a LONG time. It sucks people are starting to talk about it b/c only a select few knew about it originally.

Yeah 20606 has been around for a while, but usually for S/D. Very few D/D thieves were running the build because they were shoehorned into the old Yishis mindset. 20606 is simply better for D/D as well.

I don’t do WvW that much (mainly because I run around for hours trying to find someone to fight and seeing absolutely no life to speak of), but I do play sPvP a lot. I used to exclusively go 2/6/0/0/6 d/p, but recently I’ve been trying the 6/0/2/0/6 d/p panic strike build and I’m falling in love with the thief again because of it. It’s just so good.

What are your thoughts on the sPvP panic strike build in WvW? Is there a reason why it isn’t used? I’ve honestly never found shadow arts to be that necessary, even when I do WvW. It’s useful for condi removal, but the regeneration you get and blind on stealth really aren’t as useful as they seem. Mug and withdraw are more than enough to survive long fights, I’ve found.

Granted, the panic strike build is designed for d/p more than d/d, but I see no reason why d/d couldn’t use it as well. On paper, I feel like panic strike is stronger than the build you listed.

With your build, you get a blind on stealth, some health regeneration in stealth, longer stealth duration, and a small amount of might while in stealth. In other words, a lot of stealth benefits, which forces you retreat to stealth to accomplish anything in most situations.

With panic strike, you get weakness on poison (autoattack, steal, choking gas), 10% more damage with dagger, 10% more damage when foe has a condition, and 3.5 seconds of immobilization at 50% hp every 20 seconds. The weakness and immobilization increase survivability, the extra damage (200 extra power + 20% damage on dagger) makes you more dangerous and less dependent on survivability, and the immobilization disrupts the enemy and opens up options for you, giving you an opportunity to retreat, pressure, or damage the enemy or it forces them to use a cooldown. Best of all, none of these benefits require you to be in stealth, meaning missing your CnDs does not automatically make you lose, and you can be super threatening with a shortbow. 5.5 seconds of immobolization every 20 seconds and cluster bomb spam = lol, and on demand evades and weakness is nice too.

I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.

Loki, there’s a lot in your post, so I’ll try to break it down bit by bit.

Loki.8793:

What are your thoughts on the sPvP panic strike build in WvW? Is there a reason why it isn’t used? I’ve honestly never found shadow arts to be that necessary, even when I do WvW. It’s useful for condi removal, but the regeneration you get and blind on stealth really aren’t as useful as they seem. Mug and withdraw are more than enough to survive long fights, I’ve found.

I made a video of 60206 in WvW, but I was playing P/P: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c2XBKKmDrQ

As for D/D, I feel the blind on stealth is absolutely crucial, especially against melee classes and other thieves. If you don’t blind on your CnD, the enemy thief can get a free CnD off of you, and that puts them at a huge advantage. You’re right that rejuvenation isn’t that important, but it does help against condi builds and in 1vX scenarios.

Loki.8793:

Granted, the panic strike build is designed for d/p more than d/d, but I see no reason why d/d couldn’t use it as well. On paper, I feel like panic strike is stronger than the build you listed.

60206 D/D would be stronger if you could sustain. The problem is that without a good group supporting you, you just won’t stay up that long, and it’ll be quite difficult to fight 1vX. It’ll also struggle in 1v1 against some builds like medi guards and D/D eles. The reason it works so well for D/P is because D/P can sustain without CnD’s, given its abundant blinds and easy stealth.

That said, I’m not the best player, so if a more skilled player were able to pull 60206 D/D off consistently, then it’d be great for teamplay.

Loki.8793:

With your build, you get a blind on stealth, some health regeneration in stealth, longer stealth duration, and a small amount of might while in stealth. In other words, a lot of stealth benefits, which forces you retreat to stealth to accomplish anything in most situations.

This is unfortunately true, and I think that’s why shadow arts is frowned upon. However, I find that D/D struggles to sustain without at least 4 points in shadow arts for the blind. And I figure if I go 4 points in, I might as well go 6 points in, since I can’t take panic strike or executioner.

To compare, S/D has a reliable evade on 3 and a blink/immob/condi clear on 2. Landing S/D 2 confirms your steal, which is incredibly useful when you need to mug for sustain, and the return on S/D 2 lets you kite a lot of melee classes. In addition, S/D 3 can negate a lot of stealth openers. And D/P has on demand stealth, AoE smoke, a very spammable blind on D/P 3, and a gap closer on D/P 3 (meaning you can opt for blinding powder over infiltrator signet).

D/D has none of these options. For a melee weapon, D/D has terrible sustain built into the weapon set, almost forcing you to trait into either shadow arts or acrobatics.

Loki.8793:

With panic strike, you get…

Best of all, none of these benefits require you to be in stealth, meaning missing your CnDs does not automatically make you lose, and you can be super threatening with a shortbow.

Missing CnD’s will hurt, no matter which build you run. The problem is that if you intend to sustain on this, you’ll probably spend the majority of the fight in SB, and then swap to D/D to finish. If that’s the playstyle you envision with 60206, then there’s no point in using D/D. You might as well just play D/P for the easier stealth and greater utility, since you’ll mostly be using SB anyway.

2/0/6/0/6 is nice for larger team fights (wvw) since it has the sustain of full SA and the utility of trix. I use S/D and D/D, and it works really nicely with both sets. I tried it for dueling a friend of equal skill as mine, he lost every single fight when I was using 2/0/6/0/6. When we both used this build, the fights took ages, the win rate was approx. 50/50.

I think 2/0/6/0/6 is stronger than the standard D/D build but it lacks the dmg to kill some bunkers and relying on a sigil procs/shadow reju isn’t my thing.

06620 is better. Mug doesn’t crit so it really doesn’t do kitten and sleight of hands only works in pillow fights.

mango.9267:

Sandrox.9524:

Im not sure you are right.Yes you can kill with 2/0/6/0/6 but 2/6/6/0/0 you get a hell lot more dmg,and not for using hidden killer,for using executioner.

The only scenario where 26600 would be better is if you only expect to land one burst. As I’ve said, 20606 has better sustain damage because you strip protection, apply more poison, gap close more often, and proc fire/air more easily. This is readily evident in the fact that 26600 won’t beat regen rangers, d/d eles, etc. of equal skill, whereas 20606 has a chance.

Sandrox.9524:

if so happens you get yourself in a mirror fight against another D/D thief playing 2/6/6 you will see why it is better imo.Think about the dmg HS can do with executioner or final backstab.

By your request, here’s a short video of my alt dueling my guildie, both using D/D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAYemuDmRLg

My alt is geared in exotic weapons/armor and yellow/green trinkets. My guildie is wearing full ascended. The first duel is my 20606 vs. his 26600. The second duel we’re both running 20606.

As you can see, 20606 has the advantage in a mirror D/D fight because of the daze, shorter cd steal (shorter cd mug), vigor, and easier fire/air proc’s. Even though I’m at a huge gear disadvantage, my build makes the fight much easier.

This video dosnt say much tbh,he could downed you pretty much easly if after his backstab do HS followup+infi signet.You could say nuh-uh,but it is not the point,the point is he could have killed you easly.The good thing about your build is the boonrip,but other than fighting PU mesmers and cele elems,I dont see how does this build do better.One thing for sure tho,more sustain+larger inti is always welcome.

Junkpile.7439:

06620 is better. Mug doesn’t crit so it really doesn’t do kitten and sleight of hands only works in pillow fights.

Mug does ~2k damage and ~2k heal, which is very significant. Sleight of hand is one of the best traits thieves have.

06620 is even more limited than 26600 because you lose some sustain without mug, and you’ll lose one of your most reliable poison applications. 06620 will have no chance against bunkers/healbots/boon spammers, and will contribute slightly less to team fights than 26600 and much less than 20606.

Sandrox.9524:

This video dosnt say much tbh,he could downed you pretty much easly if after his backstab do HS followup+infi signet.You could say nuh-uh,but it is not the point,the point is he could have killed you easly.The good thing about your build is the boonrip,but other than fighting PU mesmers and cele elems,I dont see how does this build do better.One thing for sure tho,more sustain+larger inti is always welcome.

Well, in every duel, someone could kill me. If they don’t, it’s usually because either I’m playing better or my build is stronger. In this case, the reason he didn’t kill me is because my build was stronger. The extra initiative, boon strip, daze, vigor, lower cd mug, and more frequent gap closing all contribute to why 20606 D/D has the advantage over 26600 D/D.

mango.9267:

Junkpile.7439:

06620 is better. Mug doesn’t crit so it really doesn’t do kitten and sleight of hands only works in pillow fights.

Mug does ~2k damage and ~2k heal, which is very significant. Sleight of hand is one of the best traits thieves have.

06620 is even more limited than 26600 because you lose some sustain without mug, and you’ll lose one of your most reliable poison applications. 06620 will have no chance against bunkers/healbots/boon spammers, and will contribute slightly less to team fights than 26600 and much less than 20606.

Sandrox.9524:

This video dosnt say much tbh,he could downed you pretty much easly if after his backstab do HS followup+infi signet.You could say nuh-uh,but it is not the point,the point is he could have killed you easly.The good thing about your build is the boonrip,but other than fighting PU mesmers and cele elems,I dont see how does this build do better.One thing for sure tho,more sustain+larger inti is always welcome.

Well, in every duel, someone could kill me. If they don’t, it’s usually because either I’m playing better or my build is stronger. In this case, the reason he didn’t kill me is because my build was stronger. The extra initiative, boon strip, daze, vigor, lower cd mug, and more frequent gap closing all contribute to why 20606 D/D has the advantage over 26600 D/D.

That is why I said,this video dosnt say much.thing is,in that build,if another d/d 2/6/6 gets you by surprise,you’ll be dead in most cases,unlike yours.

Sandrox.9524:

That is why I said,this video dosnt say much.thing is,in that build,if another d/d 2/6/6 gets you by surprise,you’ll be dead in most cases,unlike yours.

I agree here, and I’ve acknowledged that case in my previous posts. The only scenario where 26600 might be better than 20606 is if you only expect to land one burst. However, in scenarios where you need sustained damage and in scenarios where you want to contribute utility to your team, 20606 is superior.

mango.9267:

T raw.4658:

20606 has been around for a LONG time. It sucks people are starting to talk about it b/c only a select few knew about it originally.

Yeah 20606 has been around for a while, but usually for S/D. Very few D/D thieves were running the build because they were shoehorned into the old Yishis mindset. 20606 is simply better for D/D as well.

I ran it on D/P and D/D like over a year ago if I remember correctly. I immediately switched and never used it for a reason….now it’s a “pr0” spec I guess

Mickz.8356:

Carpboy.7145:

I’ve been using 20606 dp for awhile now in WvW. There is not a class or build too difficult to take down. Hell ive even won a 1v7v7. The sheer amount of utility you have is unbelievable. Being able to interrupt resses mid stomp with steal has win an in umerable amount of 1v2s/3s, and being able to interrupt an eles ether renewal through armor of earth has also won me multiple 1v1s. Its an amazing build, and for anyone curious i definitely suggest trying it. Never tried d/d before, you just can’t do anything compared to dp :/ dual wielding daggers looks so bad as tho so props to those who pull i off.

My gear setup is also slightly different from yours. I opt for less health and crit chance in favor of more ferocity and toughness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TlCFABA8AAuSJISK/eU9HBOBARcIAqZ/hM0Bkm2gFOCAkCochRA-w

the only reason you cant compare anything to d/p is because of stealth access at literally any time, it doesn’t really take a lot of ‘l33t ski11z’ to play tbh

has if anything on this game requires skill? :]

mango.9267:

Carpboy.7145:

I’ve been using 20606 dp for awhile now in WvW. There is not a class or build too difficult to take down. Hell ive even won a 1v7v7. The sheer amount of utility you have is unbelievable. Being able to interrupt resses mid stomp with steal has win an in umerable amount of 1v2s/3s, and being able to interrupt an eles ether renewal through armor of earth has also won me multiple 1v1s. Its an amazing build, and for anyone curious i definitely suggest trying it. Never tried d/d before, you just can’t do anything compared to dp :/ dual wielding daggers looks so bad as tho so props to those who pull i off.

My gear setup is also slightly different from yours. I opt for less health and crit chance in favor of more ferocity and toughness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TlCFABA8AAuSJISK/eU9HBOBARcIAqZ/hM0Bkm2gFOCAkCochRA-w

I’ve tried 20606 D/P, but find that I just don’t need the shadow arts. I’d opt for 26006 or 60206 to contribute more burst to my team. 20606 on D/P just doesn’t hit very hard, especially against bunkers.

alchemyst.2165:

You know, you could run both and be 26006.

That’s true, but I’d only run 26006 if I had very skilled bunkers supporting me. 26006 on D/D is extremely painful because you pretty much have to be in melee range, and having no blind on stealth means your enemy is free to aoe around himself, even if you land your CnD. It’s also very difficult to solo roam on 26006 D/D. That said, I have been trying 40406 recently with Improvisation or Dagger Training, which I also like.

AikijinX.6258:

Elitist.8701:

Hahaha nice man. Aikijinx got rekt.

I didn’t get “Rekt”

It’s funny because I remember this fight, and i remember the conditions i was playing under. Which i wont mention, but good fight anyway Mango.

Hey, good fight. I didn’t post this video to chest-thump or anything. You happened to be the only S/D thief I dueled using this set up recently, and I wanted to showcase a fight against an S/D thief.

Oh no worries mate, I was playing under bad circumstances. We can always rematch anytime. You are a pretty decent D/D. Keep up the good work, hope to see more videos

Interesting, always wanted to try that build as a d/d. What’s this like with 40% crit chance?

My thief has all ascended gear with mostly valk stats for added vitality. I don’t really wanna change anything again if I don’t need to.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Interesting, always wanted to try that build as a d/d. What’s this like with 40% crit chance?

My thief has all ascended gear with mostly valk stats for added vitality. I don’t really wanna change anything again if I don’t need to.

My alt is hovering around 40% crit chance with consumables. Personally, it bothers me, since I don’t proc fire/air as easily, but in practice, I’m still able to win duels and 1vX just fine. So long as you’re able to maintain ~75% fury up-time from thrill of the crime and pack runes, you should be okay. You could also swap fire for intelligence and guarantee some backstabs if you feel like you don’t crit enough.

I wvw for first time in like a year the other day. Used old 06620 build. I find it now impossible to play thief without trickery… In wvw you also need sa for 1vX. I am trying 00626 with full berserker. Thinking of using rage runes for longer fury up time instead of scholar…

swinsk.6410:

I wvw for first time in like a year the other day. Used old 06620 build. I find it now impossible to play thief without trickery… In wvw you also need sa for 1vX. I am trying 00626 with full berserker. Thinking of using rage runes for longer fury up time instead of scholar…

PM me I’ll fill ya in

Signed

Notsoserioius

swinsk.6410:

I wvw for first time in like a year the other day. Used old 06620 build. I find it now impossible to play thief without trickery… In wvw you also need sa for 1vX. I am trying 00626 with full berserker. Thinking of using rage runes for longer fury up time instead of scholar…

Yeah, I completely agree. Rage is definitely a better choice than scholar because you won’t proc the sixth effect on scholar very often, and you really need the fury. I prefer pack because pack also gives you near perma-swiftness as well. If you can position without swiftness, then rage packs a bit more damage on your crits.

Nice job. I used to run something very similar to this a long time ago, but quit using it after the ferocity nerf. i couldn’t stand the lower damage. I do miss the better survivability though compared to what i’m currently using.

Once I stepped out of SA, I never want to go back to it. SA for me was just to easy, and I stopped finding it fun. I run full glass in wvw now with all the SPvP builds, makes for much more skillful and entertaining gameplay IMO.

Amonatory.2453:

Once I stepped out of SA, I never want to go back to it. SA for me was just to easy, and I stopped finding it fun. I run full glass in wvw now with all the SPvP builds, makes for much more skillful and entertaining gameplay IMO.

Well, you’re a S/D thief, you have condi removal on your set are also hard to predict due to teleports and the general style of S/D.
To me S/D is the exact opposite of D/D. To me D/D is raw fight – no utilities, just strategy. And one can’t really evade conditions when relying on CnD. If people can make it work – good for them, but there’s also might stacking in that line and I don’t want to miss that.
Edit: And S/D probably wouldn’t work without & in trickery anyway. If you were talking about D/D then sorry and: bring on some videos (I love D/D videos anyway).

Amonatory.2453:

Once I stepped out of SA, I never want to go back to it. SA for me was just to easy, and I stopped finding it fun. I run full glass in wvw now with all the SPvP builds, makes for much more skillful and entertaining gameplay IMO.

The way I see it, D/D needs at least 4 points in SA for the blind and condi removal. Once you go 4 points in, it seems like a waste not to just go 6 points in because you won’t be getting panic strike or executioner.

Running acro could probably work as well, but that’ll usually mean dodging predictably at the end of a CnD, and condi builds would hurt a ton, since D/D has no built-in condi clear and no built-in blind/blink/reliable evade to avoid condi application.

That said, when I play D/D in PvP, I tend to run 20246 to discourage myself from using too much stealth, but missing the blind certainly hurts.

Jana.6831:

Amonatory.2453:

Once I stepped out of SA, I never want to go back to it. SA for me was just to easy, and I stopped finding it fun. I run full glass in wvw now with all the SPvP builds, makes for much more skillful and entertaining gameplay IMO.

Well, you’re a S/D thief, you have condi removal on your set are also hard to predict due to teleports and the general style of S/D.
To me S/D is the exact opposite of D/D. To me D/D is raw fight – no utilities, just strategy. And one can’t really evade conditions when relying on CnD. If people can make it work – good for them, but there’s also might stacking in that line and I don’t want to miss that.
Edit: And S/D probably wouldn’t work without & in trickery anyway. If you were talking about D/D then sorry and: bring on some videos (I love D/D videos anyway).

I pretty much agree with this. S/D and D/P both have more sustain built into the weapon sets, so going 0 SA is much easier.

O.o has the potential to be a hybrid thief lol added 300 condi dmg. It doesn’t seem much but it’s still something:)

Nice thought second.

I just wanted to agree that 20606 can be better than 26600 in most scenarios mainly because of the higher CC, life gain, ability to engage faster than 26600, thus making it more noob-friendly. However, I believe that players should have a choice on what to decide what’s better for their own, even though it is a game, choosing the “meta” lets a person gives them more reason to feel secure about the option knowing that many people will be playing the build, they have no shame in it.

For sure, I believe a new player with 20606 against a new player using 26600 will completely dominate them. Although, from my opinion, I still think 26600 is still better than 20606 regardless of the advantages it has over 26600, an experienced player playing 26600 should know how to counter 20606 and what the weaknesses are.

This may be one of the first times I have seen a title like this to push people in a certain direction with a video in the thief forums that has populated enough. It may be because you’re showing a montage of beating known people, or it may be because you’re making a strong statement.

I’ve noticed at least one person in the video already posted defensively about this, and it does not show an accurate honest fight between each “better” player. In my opinion, I would post a video that shows numerous fights against each “better” person to show an unbiased perspective for both players.

Good game play dude! You’ve got good mechanics for sure. I cut my teeth on d/d in wvw and I agree that you can customize your gear such that your build is superior to 2/6/6/0/0 because CS has been looking pretty lack luster lately. In spvp the lack of customization of stats makes the debate more complicated, but in wvw you can just go more offensive with gear stats to come back up in dmg with that build.

That being said, d/d is so limited that I can never see myself going back to it unless it gets a large overhaul. S/D and D/P have so much more to offer, I really don’t see the reason to use d/d other than how it doesn’t really matter what you use when farming wvw bads….

If I ever go back to wvw I’ll be with 2/0/0/6/6 s/d or 6/0/2/0/6 d/p.

Nephrite.6954:

O.o has the potential to be a hybrid thief lol added 300 condi dmg. It doesn’t seem much but it’s still something:)

Well, the meta build for WvW condi teef is 20606, so yeah. That said, I think hybrid D/D would be pretty underwhelming, so until someone shows me otherwise, I’m probably not going to try that build out.

Hype.8032:

In spvp the lack of customization of stats makes the debate more complicated, but in wvw you can just go more offensive with gear stats to come back up in dmg with that build.

It doesn’t quite work in PvP because CnD damage is nerfed, and revealed is 4s. Plus you only get ~41% crit chance with 0 CS and pack runes. I still play it sometimes because I’m a diehard D/D fan.

Hype.8032:

That being said, d/d is so limited that I can never see myself going back to it unless it gets a large overhaul. S/D and D/P have so much more to offer, I really don’t see the reason to use d/d other than how it doesn’t really matter what you use when farming wvw bads….

I don’t think D/D needs a major overhaul — just a slight buff to the evade/initiative cost of death blossom would put it in a good place. I prefer D/D over S/D because it has more finishing potential with heartseeker and backstab, and I prefer D/D over D/P because of the slightly higher burst from the CnD backstab combo. I agree that S/D and D/P are stronger sets overall, especially when it comes to sustain.

Crucify.1649:

Nice thought second.

Ohai, Initialose!

Crucify.1649:

For sure, I believe a new player with 20606 against a new player using 26600 will completely dominate them. Although, from my opinion, I still think 26600 is still better than 20606 regardless of the advantages it has over 26600, an experienced player playing 26600 should know how to counter 20606 and what the weaknesses are.

Perhaps I don’t play at the level you’re talking about, but in my experience, 20606 beats 26600 even when experienced players are using those builds. 26600 would only win if the player could land the burst, but 20606 makes that very difficult with its daze, permaswiftness, vigor, and more frequent engages. In my experience, the D/D thief that is able to gap close more often will win because just straight up CnDing in melee range is very risky. That said, 20606 also loses less from missing CnD’s because of the extra initiative.

Of course this is just talking about D/D vs. D/D. I think 20606 does much better against a ton of builds that 26600 struggles with because 26600 offers no boon strip and subpar poison application.

Crucify.1649:

I’ve noticed at least one person in the video already posted defensively about this, and it does not show an accurate honest fight between each “better” player. In my opinion, I would post a video that shows numerous fights against each “better” person to show an unbiased perspective for both players.

Well, the intent isn’t to suggest I’m a better player than the people I dueled, nor is the intent to suggest that I win the majority of the duels (I don’t keep score anyway). I just wanted to showcase some fights against builds that 26600 struggles with, played by enemies who know how to use those builds. I thought about using more footage of those duels, but the video was already 12 minutes long, and some duels (like the ones against Pillowcooke) last 5 – 10 minutes each.

mango.9267:

Crucify.1649:

Nice thought second.

Ohai, Initialose!

Crucify.1649:

For sure, I believe a new player with 20606 against a new player using 26600 will completely dominate them. Although, from my opinion, I still think 26600 is still better than 20606 regardless of the advantages it has over 26600, an experienced player playing 26600 should know how to counter 20606 and what the weaknesses are.

Perhaps I don’t play at the level you’re talking about, but in my experience, 20606 beats 26600 even when experienced players are using those builds. 26600 would only win if the player could land the burst, but 20606 makes that very difficult with its daze, permaswiftness, vigor, and more frequent engages. In my experience, the D/D thief that is able to gap close more often will win because just straight up CnDing in melee range is very risky. That said, 20606 also loses less from missing CnD’s because of the extra initiative.

Of course this is just talking about D/D vs. D/D. I think 20606 does much better against a ton of builds that 26600 struggles with because 26600 offers no boon strip and subpar poison application.

Crucify.1649:

I’ve noticed at least one person in the video already posted defensively about this, and it does not show an accurate honest fight between each “better” player. In my opinion, I would post a video that shows numerous fights against each “better” person to show an unbiased perspective for both players.

Well, the intent isn’t to suggest I’m a better player than the people I dueled, nor is the intent to suggest that I win the majority of the duels (I don’t keep score anyway). I just wanted to showcase some fights against builds that 26600 struggles with, played by enemies who know how to use those builds. I thought about using more footage of those duels, but the video was already 12 minutes long, and some duels (like the ones against Pillowcooke) last 5 – 10 minutes each.

You say I’m talking about a “level” as if I am better than anyone simply because of what I said. I didn’t mean to imply that if you took it that way, but I just assure you that 20606 does not greatly overcome 26600. As you said, 26600 wins when they land their burst, and that is the moment, regardless if they wait until that time, that is the counter to winning against 20606. The weakness against 20606 is that pushing 6 into trickery does not gain any useful stat bonus which allows 26600 to match over 20606 with more health and armor.

“In my experience, the D/D thief that is able to gap close more often will win because just straight up CnDing in melee range is very risky. That said, 20606 also loses less from missing CnD’s because of the extra initiative.”

With your quote above; still with the example of both players being experienced, a 26600 thief should not miss a CnD because they know 20606 has the initiative advantage from trickery minor trait. However, 26600 will usually always use infiltrator signet and have opportunist that allows 26600 to still compete with 20606, whereas 20606 has only initiative on steal (if it hits), no opportunist and no infiltrator signet (20606 simply does not need infiltrator signet and has more value with blinding powder).

If it is 26600 against 20606, boon strip does not really matter, and poison is almost on equal terms depending how patient people are to actually proc the 3rd chain on dagger auto attack.

I did not say anything about you being better nor implied you were better. I was quoting the first sentence of your original post when you were fighting against better players.

P.S. All I am really saying is that your title speaks a strong statement that is incredibly false. It is also not the meta because people still play 26600 and prefer it over 20606. I didn’t mean to argue this much but people who read this will be mislead, I just want to defend the people who still play 26600 (I hardly play 26600, I still play 20606 and other non-SA builds but that does not mean it’s better, I play it because it’s more fast paced) so they aren’t discouraged by what other people think of what the “meta” is now for SA thieves.

If it was anyone else, I would not care. You are a friend of mine, and I just don’t think you should take this mindset of thinking.

Crucify.1649:

P.S. All I am really saying is that your title speaks a strong statement that is incredibly false. It is also not the meta because people still play 26600 and prefer it over 20606. I didn’t mean to argue this much but people who read this will be mislead, I just want to defend the people who still play 26600 (I hardly play 26600, I still play 20606 and other non-SA builds but that does not mean it’s better, I play it because it’s more fast paced) so they aren’t discouraged by what other people think of what the “meta” is now for SA thieves.

Well, fundamentally, I think everyone should play whatever build they find most fun, regardless of what other people think. However, I do want to encourage D/D thieves to play 20606 because I’ve found a lot of new D/D thieves who’ve struggled against some of the tankier meta builds and either gave up on D/D or gave up on the thief profession, before they even tried 20606. I think the appeal of 26600 is that it’s very straightforward, but ultimately I think thieves in general shine a lot more with 6 in trickery.

Of course, as with all things I post, this is my personal opinion. You’re free to disagree, and I won’t be upset if anyone still plays 26600 or prefers it to 20606.

Awesome video mango! And I truly agree with your statement d/d seems to be really limited if you miss a CnD. Thank you for helping to keep the thief class alive. I’ll give the build a shot in wvw and see how it goes.
PS: I main a thief that’s why I salute you for doing this.

hey man i know what youre saying and meaning but my only problem with 20606 is:
it doesnt have the burst i want to have on my thief
of course you can practically beat any opponent with the same skill level with your build, thats not possible with x66xx but i personally main both engineer and thief for months now
why can i stustain two mains? because one’s burst and one’s celestial
i can beat most players in 1v1 (and because of SA also 1v2 or 1v3) but some builds used by good players are just unbeatable – but for that i’m a thief, awareness + thief = unkillable
just the reason why i still prefer x66xx over your build, nothing to say against yours tho apart from missing burst imo

Tarkan.5609:

hey man i know what youre saying and meaning but my only problem with 20606 is:
it doesnt have the burst i want to have on my thief

Yes, 26600 bursts harder, but it’s also more predictable because it relies a lot on landing that burst. At mid to high level play, I feel this burst-or-nothing mindset is limiting because opponents will know how to mitigate the CnD, mug, backstab combo.

Of course, it’s your prerogative to build for burst, and 26600 will probably be fine if you have someone else doing the boon stripping/poison application/sustained damage. I just want to encourage new players to move away from this very straightforward and (in my opinion) limited conception of D/D thief.

mango.9267:

Tarkan.5609:

hey man i know what youre saying and meaning but my only problem with 20606 is:
it doesnt have the burst i want to have on my thief

Yes, 26600 bursts harder, but it’s also more predictable because it relies a lot on landing that burst. At mid to high level play, I feel this burst-or-nothing mindset is limiting because opponents will know how to mitigate the CnD, mug, backstab combo.

Thats true but in wvw tbh there arent a lot of skilled players running around or anything, burst in combination with SA is enough for some 1vX
And even though i duelled a lot of reapers/legendary champions (also pretty good players) i only have problems against good D/D eles and really good s/d thieves (and anti-thief burst rangers or engineers but that doesnt count) – simply because of their boons (eles) or their ability to strike whenever they want (s/d thieves)
btw you could also try s/d 20606, used to run that build for like 4months because its pretty neat, doesnt rely on one major crit like d/d does

@ mango:
I still have a question to this build, since I’m currently experimenting with my second thief: You have some soldier’s stuff in your gear – is that intended or is it because that was what you had currently equipped for no real reason?

This is good stuff. Do you think 2/0/6/0/6 would work with my gear setup? I don’t really feel like changing my gear so.

Here is what my build would look like with 2/0/6/0/6:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp8plOx7J8PNBNhwdtVz8O83yaFA-TFCBwAQeAAL3f4sSQsK/AcKASpPgxRAQn6PBAQA4mD9mD9m3sUAlrMC-w

Let me know what you think.

Jana.6831:

@ mango:
I still have a question to this build, since I’m currently experimenting with my second thief: You have some soldier’s stuff in your gear – is that intended or is it because that was what you had currently equipped for no real reason?

The only soldier’s piece I have is the exotic backpiece, and that’s just because it’s the easiest backpiece to acquire. Ideally, I’d have an ascended zerk backpiece, but I just can’t be bothered to farm. The best stats for thieves, in my opinion, are zerk, assassin, valk, and knight. I don’t think thieves get that much out of soldier.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

This is good stuff. Do you think 2/0/6/0/6 would work with my gear setup? I don’t really feel like changing my gear so.

Here is what my build would look like with 2/0/6/0/6:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp8plOx7J8PNBNhwdtVz8O83yaFA-TFCBwAQeAAL3f4sSQsK/AcKASpPgxRAQn6PBAQA4mD9mD9m3sUAlrMC-w

Let me know what you think.

This will work, but I recommend maintenance oil instead of sharpening stone. You want to aim for over 60% crit chance with fury. You have a lot of health, which is fine, but once you get comfortable playing the build, consider swapping out valk pieces for zerk.

@mango:
Ok, ty – your shortbow is still listed as soldier as well though.
Good, one backpiece less to bother about – I don’t really like to farm all this stuff as well, it’s ok for weapons but clothes are much more annoying.

Jana.6831:

@mango:
Ok, ty – your shortbow is still listed as soldier as well though.
Good, one backpiece less to bother about – I don’t really like to farm all this stuff as well, it’s ok for weapons but clothes are much more annoying.

Ah, yeah, because I mostly use SB defensively. You’d be surprised how many times the sudden health/armor increase + extra dodge have saved me when I swap. Zerk is also a good choice for SB if you plan on using SB more.

mango.9267:

Jana.6831:

@mango:
Ok, ty – your shortbow is still listed as soldier as well though.
Good, one backpiece less to bother about – I don’t really like to farm all this stuff as well, it’s ok for weapons but clothes are much more annoying.

Ah, yeah, because I mostly use SB defensively. You’d be surprised how many times the sudden health/armor increase + extra dodge have saved me when I swap. Zerk is also a good choice for SB if you plan on using SB more.

Don’t you find yourself in situations when you are in SB, very low on HP and swapping to your main set would really help but if you’d do that, you’d lower your vitality enough to get yourself downed?

Jayden Ennok.3687:

mango.9267:

Jana.6831:

@mango:
Ok, ty – your shortbow is still listed as soldier as well though.
Good, one backpiece less to bother about – I don’t really like to farm all this stuff as well, it’s ok for weapons but clothes are much more annoying.

Ah, yeah, because I mostly use SB defensively. You’d be surprised how many times the sudden health/armor increase + extra dodge have saved me when I swap. Zerk is also a good choice for SB if you plan on using SB more.

Don’t you find yourself in situations when you are in SB, very low on HP and swapping to your main set would really help but if you’d do that, you’d lower your vitality enough to get yourself downed?

Well, at least it hasn’t happened to me yet, and I hope it remains that way. I almost never swap to D/D when I’m about to die simply because I’m probably busy trying to SB 5 away.

mango.9267:

This will work, but I recommend maintenance oil instead of sharpening stone. You want to aim for over 60% crit chance with fury. You have a lot of health, which is fine, but once you get comfortable playing the build, consider swapping out valk pieces for zerk.

Cool.

Why 60% specifically? I’ve always aimed at 50% myself. Then again I come from a medi-guardian background (my main) where 30% crit is more than enough because Fury will be handed out like candy and 50% crit after Fury on a guardian is more than enough. How is the Fury upkeep of this thief build? 50% of the time during fights give or take?