Guild Wars 2

LucosTheDutch.4819:

mango.9267:

This will work, but I recommend maintenance oil instead of sharpening stone. You want to aim for over 60% crit chance with fury. You have a lot of health, which is fine, but once you get comfortable playing the build, consider swapping out valk pieces for zerk.

Cool.

Why 60% specifically? I’ve always aimed at 50% myself. Then again I come from a medi-guardian background (my main) where 30% crit is more than enough because Fury will be handed out like candy and 50% crit after Fury on a guardian is more than enough. How is the Fury upkeep of this thief build? 50% of the time during fights give or take?

Well, I say over 60% because single hit crits are very important for mainhand dagger. Backstab and heartseeker are both single hit attacks that deal very good damage when they crit and very meh damage when they don’t.

It’s different for a medi guard or sword mainhand thief because they don’t rely on any single hit to deal massive damage. The damage is normalized over a series of quick attacks, so there’s not as much concern over missing a crit on a single crucial attack.

Fury up-time for me is anywhere between 66% – 75% depending on how often I get hit and on my RNG. It’s already roughly 50% up-time using just thrill of the crime, so pack runes will significantly increase the up-time.

mango.9267:

Well, I say over 60% because single hit crits are very important for mainhand dagger. Backstab and heartseeker are both single hit attacks that deal very good damage when they crit and very meh damage when they don’t.

It’s different for a medi guard or sword mainhand thief because they don’t rely on any single hit to deal massive damage. The damage is normalized over a series of quick attacks, so there’s not as much concern over missing a crit on a single crucial attack.

Fury up-time for me is anywhere between 66% – 75% depending on how often I get hit and on my RNG. It’s already roughly 50% up-time using just thrill of the crime, so pack runes will significantly increase the up-time.

I hear ya. I’ve been running this build for a bit now and one of my biggest complaints already is that not all my backstabs are crits.

When I ran 2/6/6/0/0 or 0/6/6/2/0 I always used Hidden Killer to ensure that my backstabs would always be a crit. That way I also didn’t have to worry about precision because Hidden Killer would ensure a critical backstab anyway. As a D/D thief you need to be patient. You need to play as an assassin or a classical rogue (that’s what I do at least). You go in stealth and stay out of harms way until you see an opening and then you strike. A critical hitting backstab with (at least) 8 stacks of might will take out a good chunk of health from most players, followed by 1 full dagger 1 rotation and a heartseeker and the enemy will have lost such a huge amount of health that he’ll most likely go into defensive mode or start panicking and thus making mistakes.

It’s such a huge bummer and anti-climax when you work up to that point where you’re going to land that backstab with 8 or 10 stacks of might and then when you hit it doesn’t crit…. It honestly sucks. For that reason alone I’m already contemplating going back to 0/6/6/2/0. For small group fights that seems to be my preference. But I will keep experimenting with 2/0/6/0/6 solo because I do love the fully upgraded steal with Mug, Thrill of Crime, Bountiful Thief and Sleigh of Hand. It really turns the mediocre class skill into a very good and important part of my thief’s skill rotations and I like that.

Running 20606 grants a higher chance to beat more things that “hard-counter” D/D Thief than 2600 D/D Thief in 1v1 scenarios — I would agree it’s “better” overall, especially in group play. Against one another, 26600 has a slightly better shot simply because it can two-shot more reliably (HK, less reliance on sigil procs, etc.) and hits much harder than 20606 especially when coming out of a long stealth.

I like your videos, mainly the entertaining P/P or no weapon ones.

I am gong to try it out right now, and see how it feels. I run 0/6/6/2/0.

Updated my build a kittenanged the runes and the utility buff (changed sharpening stones to maintenance oil).

Curious how this will play out.

Edit:

Link to the actual build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0MpyplOx7J8PNBNhwdsSz8O83yaFA-TFCBABXq+DEPAgzUCilyPAOFAFt/Qe6DY4IAEAABgbezhezhezSBUuwI-w

Hey Mango, i wanted to know how would Fleet Shadows do for the build. just taking bug away. I do see a bit a sustain in the mug and does stable damage on steal. I guess its on playstyle, but again what do you think about fleet shadows just able to get behind your proponent faster or dis-engage in stealth and get away faster. This is mainly the playstyle i play, but i ran a 0/6/0/2/6 build before and want to encorporate the fleet shadows in my build. Any thoughts?

Smurf.4736:

Hey Mango, i wanted to know how would Fleet Shadows do for the build. just taking bug away. I do see a bit a sustain in the mug and does stable damage on steal. I guess its on playstyle, but again what do you think about fleet shadows just able to get behind your proponent faster or dis-engage in stealth and get away faster. This is mainly the playstyle i play, but i ran a 0/6/0/2/6 build before and want to encorporate the fleet shadows in my build. Any thoughts?

I won’t speak for him, but after dueling him for a long time with a couple of buddies and talking to him for quite some time I’m pretty sure he’d say something along the lines of, his build is now based around steal quite a bit, and having mug on there is great because it’s now on a reduced cooldown. He also keeps 75% swiftness uptime (swiftness and fleet shadow have the same speed btw) so it’s not as necessary. However if you were not running pack runes or thrill of the crime for some reason I could see it benefiting you.

Also, just to point out something I noticed after our duels mango was I was actually able to engage just as often or even more after looking at my traits. You have a 20% cooldown reduction to steal from the Grandmaster in Trickery, however I get 20% recharge rate on signet’s (infiltrators strike) from the VIII trait in Crit. Strikes. This puts the cooldown slightly lower than that of your steals cooldown. and thus allows me to engage just as often as you do. I still agree on your other points on how 6 in trickery is better than 6 in Crit strikes however. I just can’t give up that executioner ;-; Good duels by the way!

I just tried it for a few hours. I don’t like it. I see a lot of positive things from coming from the trickery trait but the damage just doesn’t satisfy me. I get around 60% crit with that fury steal, but it doesn’t crit when i want to, and it crits on the worst skills lol.

I think thieves are too squishy to leave things to chance. just letting go of this 100% crit chance backstab is too much for me.

but I am still going to agree with you and , say that this build is better. Much better simply because of the versatility and the fact that it allows for a lot more aggressivity.
I mean, Sleight of Hand is so important and rewarding. That alone can save your life more often than the usual 2/6/6/0/0 or 0/6/6/2/0

Conclusion:

This build is not bad at all, and it IS better than the default builds. However one must get used to the major drop in damage. Are you willing to sacrifice this? I could not.

. Mango, what food buff do you use? (kind of hoping i was using the wrong food lol)

. Well done.

15charrrrr…..

Thorp.7982:

I like your videos, mainly the entertaining P/P or no weapon ones.

Hey, thanks! I actually have enough footage for weaponless part 2, but I figure there wouldn’t be much demand for it.

Smurf.4736:

Hey Mango, i wanted to know how would Fleet Shadows do for the build.

Well, it’s up to you, but I personally wouldn’t. It’s not just because mug gives significant sustain/damage, but also because you need that 1 point in DA for the poison application. That’s one of the most reliable sources of poison you have, and you absolutely need it to fight bunkers. You should have near permaswiftness from thrill and pack runes, so your movement speed shouldn’t be an issue.

reinforever.8902:

Also, just to point out something I noticed after our duels mango was I was actually able to engage just as often or even more after looking at my traits. You have a 20% cooldown reduction to steal from the Grandmaster in Trickery, however I get 20% recharge rate on signet’s (infiltrators strike) from the VIII trait in Crit. Strikes. This puts the cooldown slightly lower than that of your steals cooldown. and thus allows me to engage just as often as you do.duels by the way!

Well, my signet is 30 sec and steal is 21 sec, putting my total at 51 sec. Your signet is 24 sec, and your steal is 35 sec, putting your total at 59 sec, which is significantly longer in my opinion. But, really, you also just get so much more out of a 21 sec steal. That said, I believe I was dueling with P/P, where I took blinding powder over signet, which means I didn’t engage as often.

Kocoff.7582:

I think thieves are too squishy to leave things to chance. just letting go of this 100% crit chance backstab is too much for me.
.
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. Mango, what food buff do you use? (kind of hoping i was using the wrong food lol)

I think this is a common misconception about the D/D set. Many people conceptualize the weapon set as one that revolves around backstab, but they shouldn’t. On 20606, the set isn’t just about landing backstabs, but about applying constant pressure with fire/air/autoattacks/heartseekers/steal. CnD and backstab are great sources of damage, but not the main or only sources of damage.

I use omnomberry pie and quality maintenance oil because I’m poor. If I could afford it, I’d run butternut squash and master oil.

Kind of hoping you read the rest of my stuff, not sure. But you are right, this is exactly why this build is better. thanks mate!

I tried running this build in spvp hotjoin and it worked great surprisingly. The only problems I faced were missing my CnD and builds with a lot of CCs other then that I was able to pull of a few outnumbered fights in spvp. I’ve never done something like that with d/p before. I’m just unsure whether to pick signet of shadows or signet of infiltrator. Getting pack runes now for wvw. Oh and do you think that I should go with p/d off set,p/p or short bow? All of it seems to work nice with d/d.

Mobility is good enough shadows is awful except on downed guardians while stomping as not x/p, and bv+steal from other thieves. Mesmer greatsword if in refuge is another great one but I’ve only accidentally done it once.

I can’t live without sleight of hand anymore. 6 trickery is required in all of my builds now. I personally run dd with 30056. Weakness on poison, 10% damage when endurance isn’t full(when’s that?), I take vigor on heal and might on dodge sometimes change it for quick recovery.
Between withdraw steal inf signet and step I’m all over the place. It sustains well enough and the damage is nice as long as you land your cnds and pace yourself.

I like it more than shadow arts, and I used to run x66x0. Shadow arts is a much slower gameplay, I prefer how much more alive trickery builds feel.

Sorry on formatting – phone and quickness for shame!

It genuinely does upset me that so many builds gain so much more extra damage on the sheer principle that Air/Fire is too good as a sigil set.

Wow, I didn’t expect this thread to get (mini) necro’d.

Nephrite.6954:

I’m just unsure whether to pick signet of shadows or signet of infiltrator. Getting pack runes now for wvw. Oh and do you think that I should go with p/d off set,p/p or short bow? All of it seems to work nice with d/d.

Never signet of shadows. Infiltrator’s signet will help land CnD’s and protect against stunlocks. Your swap weapon will depend on what you intend to do. In PvP, I’d highly recommend SB for the mobility, poison, and cleave. In WvW, it’s really down to personal preference.

Selver.1307:

I can’t live without sleight of hand anymore. 6 trickery is required in all of my builds now. I personally run dd with 30056. Weakness on poison, 10% damage when endurance isn’t full(when’s that?), I take vigor on heal and might on dodge sometimes change it for quick recovery.
Between withdraw steal inf signet and step I’m all over the place. It sustains well enough and the damage is nice as long as you land your cnds and pace yourself.

I like it more than shadow arts, and I used to run x66x0. Shadow arts is a much slower gameplay, I prefer how much more alive trickery builds feel.

Completely agree here. Once you taste trickery, it’s hard to go back. And I’ve also considered a similar acro build, but I find conditions a bit more kitten ing and CnD’s a bit more risky. My personal preference is 20246 so I can take either shadow’s embrace or cloaked in shadow, but losing the damage modifier/weakness does make me sad.

DeceiverX.8361:

It genuinely does upset me that so many builds gain so much more extra damage on the sheer principle that Air/Fire is too good as a sigil set.

Well, I think thieves benefit a lot from fire/air simply because most thieves maintain high crit chance and have fast autoattacks. That said, I don’t think fire/air are much stronger than other sigils used in meta builds. Geomancy/doom, battle/intelligence, etc. are all equally powerful, if not more powerful.

Yeah that’s the build I ran for s/d today lol kinda happy to see others use it 2/0/2/4/6. Condition cleanse are just mandatory if you wanna stay longer in a fight. Not much point going all out 6 in acro.

mango.9267:

Wow, I didn’t expect this thread to get (mini) necro’d.

Nephrite.6954:

I’m just unsure whether to pick signet of shadows or signet of infiltrator. Getting pack runes now for wvw. Oh and do you think that I should go with p/d off set,p/p or short bow? All of it seems to work nice with d/d.

Never signet of shadows. Infiltrator’s signet will help land CnD’s and protect against stunlocks. Your swap weapon will depend on what you intend to do. In PvP, I’d highly recommend SB for the mobility, poison, and cleave. In WvW, it’s really down to personal preference.

Selver.1307:

I can’t live without sleight of hand anymore. 6 trickery is required in all of my builds now. I personally run dd with 30056. Weakness on poison, 10% damage when endurance isn’t full(when’s that?), I take vigor on heal and might on dodge sometimes change it for quick recovery.
Between withdraw steal inf signet and step I’m all over the place. It sustains well enough and the damage is nice as long as you land your cnds and pace yourself.

I like it more than shadow arts, and I used to run x66x0. Shadow arts is a much slower gameplay, I prefer how much more alive trickery builds feel.

Completely agree here. Once you taste trickery, it’s hard to go back. And I’ve also considered a similar acro build, but I find conditions a bit more kitten ing and CnD’s a bit more risky. My personal preference is 20246 so I can take either shadow’s embrace or cloaked in shadow, but losing the damage modifier/weakness does make me sad.

DeceiverX.8361:

It genuinely does upset me that so many builds gain so much more extra damage on the sheer principle that Air/Fire is too good as a sigil set.

Well, I think thieves benefit a lot from fire/air simply because most thieves maintain high crit chance and have fast autoattacks. That said, I don’t think fire/air are much stronger than other sigils used in meta builds. Geomancy/doom, battle/intelligence, etc. are all equally powerful, if not more powerful.

I’m really gonna have to disagree with that statement. Geomancy and doom are on the weaker end due to their cooldowns and cleansing/prevention ability with strictly lower activation potential, and while battle is good, at least one can see the might stacks/know how much damage they’ll be taking if they get hit. Intelligence doesn’t really do much for a lot of builds, and most traits will cover its need otherwise. Fire/Air are totally random; you can have 10k health and know your opponent only has a move that can hit you for 5-6k, but air/fire procs and kills you.

Or it doesn’t because they didn’t crit, and so you dodge out of the way after being hit, and a tiny little ranged skill they use which does no damage procs both and kills you instead.

I actively dislike huge chunks of burst damage coming from RNG with no way to tell of a counter. It also promotes building more defensively and allows for fury to be overly-useful even for builds not focusing on damage through physical damage.

I’d be happier if they just added a 10% critical damage sigil and removed fire/air altogether. Fire/Air really de-value power and ferocity as stats.

Hey mango, is there a way to combine assassin’s equilibrium with a few back stab builds? Maybe even a s/d build with 6acro and the other 8 points spent in damage instead of trickery for more burst, preferably with daggers for faster burst from stealth. What do you guys think? I know it can’t really compete with metas but I don’t wanna always have such limited choices. I’m gonna run a few experiments with that build and come up with something for us to agree on. Stating for more suggestions.