Guild Wars 2

Moved to a new forum post. → https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/I-think-we-all-would-rather-have/first#post1716716

Good math breakdown, this is appreciated.

One question: 2 auto attack chains is an 11% decrease in DPS, but I didn’t see what the DPS decrease was when you time the DS and WS #1 attacks perfectly before CnD BS. Not a “significant” drop, but still curious what it comes out to since we’re all about math here and optimizing the rotation. Thanks!

Enemies often dont let you stand the whole time behind them though, but if they do and you have some initiative recovery traits, then you can also toss in a heartseeker after your AA-Chain. Espeacily when your enemy is below 50% or 25% you will get a higher DPS output. Still even with Quick Recovery and Infiltration Signet you will eventually run dry on initiative.

You can try to postpone that effect with Smokescreen, dropping it when you are low on init and do a heartseeker through it. The duration of smokescreen is enough for you to do:
Smokescreen→HS→BS→AA-Chain→HS→HS→BS

Problem with HS though is that you are stuck for 3/4 sec in the animation, which can give a boss enough time to turn around and smack your face.

In case we dont have to dodge often and with that arent able to apply BS every 4 sec, then the whole point is moot anyway, but if we are able to do that then we probatly need to choose from different rotations, depending on our initiative.
CnD→BS→AA-Chain→AA-filler→CND→BS….
CnD→BS→AA-Chain→HS→CnD→BS…
Smokescreen→HS→BS→AA-Chain→HS→HS→BS…

Thanks for the video.

However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.

You explain the exact reason I hate this nerf and woulda preferred the original planned nerf instead if I had a choice. The new rotation is tedious enough to break any amount of fun the backstab build provided. What’s the alternative for DPS though? There really isn’t one that can match it or come close. I’m not even full GC as I use soldier too and add some team support as well. I was very happy with my all-around build and now it’s a mess.
Not to mention Hidden Killer is gone too for who knows how long.

Don’t even get me started what this did to my 30 Shadow Arts S/D build. Funny thing is – it barely affects me in wvw. PvE is so broken though, that I shelved my thief there.

I play with this rotation since patch and it really works when they fix our trait bug all goods thiefs are going to pwon same ;D

I really liked your video and the guest appearance of randy savage!

I have not got a chance to play my CnD thief yet. I am a very similar build to yours but I have 10 Trickery for TotC or Flanking Strikes for further burst damage.

I have noticed that the timing is way off now. D/D used to be 4 swings, then CND. S/D used to be 3 swings, then CND.

I feel like I am having a hard time getting used to the 4s.

Along with the DPS nerf, the thief is taking more damage while exposed longer.

This class got a DPS nerf AND a defensive nerf all in one patch.

Nice video, but I have 1 issue with it – you included haste nerf into the calculations of how much dmg d/d thief lost from revealed nerf. Haste nerf is nerf for everyone, it could be interesting to check how much dmg thieves lost from just a reveal debuff, not from haste nerf.

When I read the thread title I thought this thread would be a troll and it’d be a video showing a d/d elementalist lol

Doggie.3184:

You explain the exact reason I hate this nerf and woulda preferred the original planned nerf instead if I had a choice. The new rotation is tedious enough to break any amount of fun the backstab build provided. What’s the alternative for DPS though? There really isn’t one that can match it or come close. I’m not even full GC as I use soldier too and add some team support as well. I was very happy with my all-around build and now it’s a mess.
Not to mention Hidden Killer is gone too for who knows how long.

Are you saying the reveal nerf destroyed your PvE thief or is it the bugged HK trait? Which one is it?

Sifu.6527:

Doggie.3184:

You explain the exact reason I hate this nerf and woulda preferred the original planned nerf instead if I had a choice. The new rotation is tedious enough to break any amount of fun the backstab build provided. What’s the alternative for DPS though? There really isn’t one that can match it or come close. I’m not even full GC as I use soldier too and add some team support as well. I was very happy with my all-around build and now it’s a mess.
Not to mention Hidden Killer is gone too for who knows how long.

Are you saying the reveal nerf destroyed your PvE thief or is it the bugged HK trait? Which one is it?

Both.

Panacea.4927:

Enemies often dont let you stand the whole time behind them though, but if they do and you have some initiative recovery traits, then you can also toss in a heartseeker after your AA-Chain. Espeacily when your enemy is below 50% or 25% you will get a higher DPS output. Still even with Quick Recovery and Infiltration Signet you will eventually run dry on initiative.

You can try to postpone that effect with Smokescreen, dropping it when you are low on init and do a heartseeker through it. The duration of smokescreen is enough for you to do:
Smokescreen->HS->BS->AA-Chain->HS->HS->BS

Problem with HS though is that you are stuck for 3/4 sec in the animation, which can give a boss enough time to turn around and smack your face.

In case we dont have to dodge often and with that arent able to apply BS every 4 sec, then the whole point is moot anyway, but if we are able to do that then we probatly need to choose from different rotations, depending on our initiative.
CnD->BS->AA-Chain->AA-filler->CND->BS….
CnD->BS->AA-Chain->HS->CnD->BS…
Smokescreen->HS->BS->AA-Chain->HS->HS->BS…

If you take any initative recovering traits you will see a MASSIVE drop in DPS, the power and the crit tree have so many 5% and 10% damage modifiers, you really can’t move any points around without losing dps.

Okamakiri.8746:

Thanks for the video.

However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.

Yes, Below 60% crit chance, your going to want hidden killer.

Scootabuser.4915:

If you take any initative recovering traits you will see a MASSIVE drop in DPS, the power and the crit tree have so many 5% and 10% damage modifiers, you really can’t move any points around without losing dps.

You gain might stacks and survivability from healing and condition removeal though.
Its hardly the case that you can stick all the time on the boss and if you can, then Mesmers and Warriors will both be able to outdamage you by far anyway.

In a real PvE enviroment, a good thief can stick to an enemy longer as other classes due to the stealth mechanic and dodges, if they trait for it. With that their damage output should be higher as with classes who only range the enemy…. at least that is how it feels for me in fractals.

Scootabuser.4915:

Okamakiri.8746:

Thanks for the video.

However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.

Backstab, while a large chunk of your damage, is still not enough that you would want to take hidden killer. The 20% damage below 50% health, I think of that as a flat 10% damage boost, while hidden killer only gives you 40-60% crit chance with 1 ability.

Some basic high school math.

Let X = BS damage
Since AA + CnD does roughly two times the BS damage, let AA + CnD = 2X
Let C = crit chance
Let D = crit damage

I’m not using tooltip damage from builders because it does not take into account your stats and skill multipliers. You can test your own numbers in game and substitute instead of X, you’ll find it’s not far from reality. In fact, the higher your power, the better BS scales, hence becoming more than AA + CnD / 2.

Left side of the equation = Executioner
Right side of the equation = Hidden Killer

For Executioner to be superior to Hidden Killer, the following equation must be true:

(3X * ((1.5+D)*C + (1 - C)) * 1.1 > 2X * ((1.5+D)*C + (1 - C)) + (1.5+D)*X
(3 * (0.5C + D*C + 1)) * 1.1 > 2 * (0.5C + D*C + 1) + 1.5 + D
(1.5C + 3DC + 3) * 1.1 > C + 2DC + 2 + 1.5 + D
1.65C + 3.3DC + 3.3 > C + 2DC + 3.5 + D
0.65C + 1.3DC > 0.2 + D

Most damage oriented thieves should have around 100% bonus crit damage. Hence, D = 1.

0.65C + 1.3C > 1.2
1.95C > 1.2
C > 0.6154

Therefore, with 100% bonus crit damage, you need to maintain at least ~61.5% crit chance for Executioner to be on average better. The higher your crit damage gets, the higher the minimum crit chance requirement also gets for Executioner to remain superior. The converse is true as well. For tankier builds that don’t have as much crit damage, a lower crit requirement is needed.

Therefore, for ME personally, even with constant fury uptime, Hidden Killer is the better trait.

Okamakiri.8746:

Scootabuser.4915:

Okamakiri.8746:

Thanks for the video.

However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.

Backstab, while a large chunk of your damage, is still not enough that you would want to take hidden killer. The 20% damage below 50% health, I think of that as a flat 10% damage boost, while hidden killer only gives you 40-60% crit chance with 1 ability.

Some basic high school math.

Let X = BS damage
Since AA + CnD does roughly two times the BS damage, let AA + CnD = 2X
Let C = crit chance
Let D = crit damage

I’m not using tooltip damage from builders because it does not take into account your stats and skill multipliers. You can test your own numbers in game and substitute instead of X, you’ll find it’s not far from reality. In fact, the higher your power, the better BS scales, hence becoming more than AA + CnD / 2.

Left side of the equation = Executioner
Right side of the equation = Hidden Killer

For Executioner to be superior to Hidden Killer, the following equation must be true:

(3X * ((1.5+D)C + (1 – C)) * 1.1 > 2X * ((1.5+D)C + (1 – C)) + (1.5+D)X
(3 * (0.5C + DC + 1)) * 1.1 > 2 * (0.5C + D*C + 1) + 1.5 + D
(1.5C + 3DC + 3) * 1.1 > C + 2DC + 2 + 1.5 + D
1.65C + 3.3DC + 3.3 > C + 2DC + 3.5 + D
0.65C + 1.3DC > 0.2 + D

Most damage oriented thieves should have around 100% bonus crit damage. Hence, D = 1.

0.65C + 1.3C > 1.2
1.95C > 1.2
C > 0.6154

Therefore, with 100% bonus crit damage, you need to maintain at least ~61.5% crit chance for Executioner to be on average better. The higher your crit damage gets, the higher the minimum crit chance requirement also gets for Executioner to remain superior. The converse is true as well. For tankier builds that don’t have as much crit damage, a lower crit requirement is needed.

Therefore, for ME personally, even with constant fury uptime, Hidden Killer is the better trait.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/TC-Hidden-Killer-or-Executioner/first#post1717418

Looks like we got about the same thing. And yes the skill builders are only good for 1 thing, determining power for your build. The crit chance and damage modifier is total trash since it includes some traits but not others, you just work those out on your own.

Panacea.4927:

Scootabuser.4915:

If you take any initative recovering traits you will see a MASSIVE drop in DPS, the power and the crit tree have so many 5% and 10% damage modifiers, you really can’t move any points around without losing dps.

You gain might stacks and survivability from healing and condition removeal though.
Its hardly the case that you can stick all the time on the boss and if you can, then Mesmers and Warriors will both be able to outdamage you by far anyway.

In a real PvE enviroment, a good thief can stick to an enemy longer as other classes due to the stealth mechanic and dodges, if they trait for it. With that their damage output should be higher as with classes who only range the enemy…. at least that is how it feels for me in fractals.

I don’t have any trouble sticking on bosses as long as heavy melee classes, even with a 30/30/10/0/0 build and full berzerker. It’s just a high skill ceiling.

Scootabuser.4915:

Okamakiri.8746:

Scootabuser.4915:

Okamakiri.8746:

Thanks for the video.

However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.

Backstab, while a large chunk of your damage, is still not enough that you would want to take hidden killer. The 20% damage below 50% health, I think of that as a flat 10% damage boost, while hidden killer only gives you 40-60% crit chance with 1 ability.

Some basic high school math.

Let X = BS damage
Since AA + CnD does roughly two times the BS damage, let AA + CnD = 2X
Let C = crit chance
Let D = crit damage

I’m not using tooltip damage from builders because it does not take into account your stats and skill multipliers. You can test your own numbers in game and substitute instead of X, you’ll find it’s not far from reality. In fact, the higher your power, the better BS scales, hence becoming more than AA + CnD / 2.

Left side of the equation = Executioner
Right side of the equation = Hidden Killer

For Executioner to be superior to Hidden Killer, the following equation must be true:

(3X * ((1.5+D)C + (1 – C)) * 1.1 > 2X * ((1.5+D)C + (1 – C)) + (1.5+D)X
(3 * (0.5C + DC + 1)) * 1.1 > 2 * (0.5C + D*C + 1) + 1.5 + D
(1.5C + 3DC + 3) * 1.1 > C + 2DC + 2 + 1.5 + D
1.65C + 3.3DC + 3.3 > C + 2DC + 3.5 + D
0.65C + 1.3DC > 0.2 + D

Most damage oriented thieves should have around 100% bonus crit damage. Hence, D = 1.

0.65C + 1.3C > 1.2
1.95C > 1.2
C > 0.6154

Therefore, with 100% bonus crit damage, you need to maintain at least ~61.5% crit chance for Executioner to be on average better. The higher your crit damage gets, the higher the minimum crit chance requirement also gets for Executioner to remain superior. The converse is true as well. For tankier builds that don’t have as much crit damage, a lower crit requirement is needed.

Therefore, for ME personally, even with constant fury uptime, Hidden Killer is the better trait.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/TC-Hidden-Killer-or-Executioner/first#post1717418

So we agree. Good.

While we’ve got a bunch of good math info going on here – is using pistol whip a dps loss over sword autoattacks?

Vargs.6234:

While we’ve got a bunch of good math info going on here – is using pistol whip a dps loss over sword autoattacks?

Ask and you shall recieve