Guild Wars 2

Hi. I don’t mean to cry or anything, that’s why I came to this section of the forum to ask you what’s the logic on this situation I recorded here by mistake. I should have checked the combat log but at that time I didn’t really care until I’ve re-watched what happened.

So, I’m not the tankiest Guardian, but I think I have a pretty good defense. Could have more, but I could have a lot less, and not to mention, what if I wasn’t even a Guardian in this situation.
I have 30 toughness, 20 vitality/healing power. Knight armor (tough), soldier runes (tough/vit), and tough/vit trinkets

Still, one Thief alone, was able with only three hits, deal this damage in this order:
4410dmg, 4651dmg, 7344dmg.

How is this even possible? I repeat, no cry intended. Just studying the situation.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFvDU22TL_4

Steal (traited to cause damage on use) → Cloak and Dagger (damage + stealth) → Backstab (stealth ability)

Looks like your average glass cannon thief using mug+CnD followed by back stab. It also looks like he had 19 stacks of blood lust for more damage.

That kind of damage isn’t really that bad. I’ve been hit for about 6k from both steal and C&D followed by a 9k backstab. But yeah, thieves burst is pretty high.

Draw.7529:

Hi. I don’t mean to cry or anything, that’s why I came to this section of the forum to ask you what’s the logic on this situation I recorded here by mistake. I should have checked the combat log but at that time I didn’t really care until I’ve re-watched what happened.

So, I’m not the tankiest Guardian, but I think I have a pretty good defense. Could have more, but I could have a lot less, and not to mention, what if I wasn’t even a Guardian in this situation.
I have 30 toughness, 20 vitality/healing power. Knight armor (tough), soldier runes (tough/vit), and tough/vit trinkets

Still, one Thief alone, was able with only three hits, deal this damage in this order:
4410dmg, 4651dmg, 7344dmg.

How is this even possible? I repeat, no cry intended. Just studying the situation.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFvDU22TL_4

Looking at it,
You didnt react fast enough.

From my ele’s PoV, when Im alert and notice damage like that I immediatly hit either lightning flash, or mist form.
Im down usually 4k, but my chances of survival are better.

You could have used F3, after save yourselves, dodged then used your signet, then f2
you would be down a bit, but in a better place than standing still, spamming your heal, and getting backstabed.

You also may want to build a guardian as a bunker spec.
A Guardian shouldnt take that much damage EVER

Hey at least he wasn’t “perma stealth” and tbh that deer did alot of damage but in all honestly that was just a GC thief you would have died anyway since you pretty much charged a zerg but one thing you did wrong was running away from the thief NEVER run away you give him the best chance to Back stab and tbh if you gonna go toughness go full tank since in this game there isnt really a in between the fact you also saw the thief ignored it and went for the ranger is your downfall if you would have started pummeling the thief im sure it would have happened alot differently.

also id like to add in the space of 3 seconds you took a ranger (sub 80) from 100%-0% hp in tank gear don’t you think that maybe thats pretty high burst considering what your running? ill just leave you with that thought

Mechanix.5719:

Hey at least he wasn’t “perma stealth” and tbh that deer did alot of damage but in all honestly that was just a GC thief you would have died anyway since you pretty much charged a zerg but one thing you did wrong was running away from the thief NEVER run away you give him the best chance to Back stab and tbh if you gonna go toughness go full tank since in this game there isnt really a in between

You can run away from us, but always be aware where the thief stealthed and not run towards it like this guardian did.

Archonis.7249:

Mechanix.5719:

Hey at least he wasn’t “perma stealth” and tbh that deer did alot of damage but in all honestly that was just a GC thief you would have died anyway since you pretty much charged a zerg but one thing you did wrong was running away from the thief NEVER run away you give him the best chance to Back stab and tbh if you gonna go toughness go full tank since in this game there isnt really a in between

You can run away from us, but always be aware where the thief stealthed and not run towards it like this guardian did.

hang on im a thief player too im not trying to take a shot at the thief he also saw the thief and ignored it and ran straight for the ranger

Mechanix.5719:

Archonis.7249:

Mechanix.5719:

Hey at least he wasn’t “perma stealth” and tbh that deer did alot of damage but in all honestly that was just a GC thief you would have died anyway since you pretty much charged a zerg but one thing you did wrong was running away from the thief NEVER run away you give him the best chance to Back stab and tbh if you gonna go toughness go full tank since in this game there isnt really a in between

You can run away from us, but always be aware where the thief stealthed and not run towards it like this guardian did.

hang on im a thief player too im not trying to take a shot at the thief he also saw the thief and ignored it and ran straight for the ranger

He also got hit by basalisk, and stood in the same spot after getting out of it, he had a good second in a half to roll, pop aegis, pop his heals, and start over fighting the theif.
Since he puts out enough damage to 100%-1% someone in 3 seconds.

Solori.6025:

Mechanix.5719:

Archonis.7249:

Mechanix.5719:

Hey at least he wasn’t “perma stealth” and tbh that deer did alot of damage but in all honestly that was just a GC thief you would have died anyway since you pretty much charged a zerg but one thing you did wrong was running away from the thief NEVER run away you give him the best chance to Back stab and tbh if you gonna go toughness go full tank since in this game there isnt really a in between

You can run away from us, but always be aware where the thief stealthed and not run towards it like this guardian did.

hang on im a thief player too im not trying to take a shot at the thief he also saw the thief and ignored it and ran straight for the ranger

He also got hit by basalisk, and stood in the same spot after getting out of it, he had a good second in a half to roll, pop aegis, pop his heals, and start over fighting the theif.
Since he puts out enough damage to 100%-1% someone in 3 seconds.

If you look at the conditions that he had, he was snared. That’s probably why he didn’t move after BS wore off.

Idd well there you go OP we have gave you advice on how you can be more prepared against a GC thief

1 Never ignore them that is the worst thing you can do, you do not ignore glass cannons
2 Do not let yourself get caught at serve disadvantage you should have called for help before you engaged that ranger
3 You have to act fast since a glass cannon will kill you quickly you have to be able to react quickly or you will simply end up dead this is the main reason why glass cannons are so effective against people who do not know how to counter them and why the forums is filled with tear stained posts

Mechanix.5719:

also id like to add in the space of 3 seconds you took a ranger (sub 80) from 100%-0% hp in tank gear don’t you think that maybe thats pretty high burst considering what your running? ill just leave you with that thought

lawyered! i thought this humorous as well after i saw how quick the ranger dropped

Ugh, I knew this would happen. You guys are missing the point, so I’ll have to explain everything else since you talk about everything but the intended situation.

- I said no cry intended. I’ve never lost a 1v1 fight against a thief until now. Altho this wasn’t much of a fight. I just wanted to know what happened here, because this damage was way too suspicious to me. I’m not asking for tutorials or anything too.

- That ranger. He was low lvl, I used every greatsword skills. It’s normal to a guardian take someone down with that. He was distracted and took all the skill. It’s a balanced weapon since you can kite pretty well (it’s slow attack move, slow spinning but strong dmg). STILL, this wasn’t the point. He was low lvl anyway.

- I’m not glassy. It’s like you didn’t read my stats. All I’m missing is having vit/tough on my armor instead of precision/tough. Everything else, including runes and trinkets are vit/tough.

- I didn’t see the thief, still not the point. I know I was heading to a zerg group and I was probably going to die, just trying to take one with me, or distract them. Still not the point.

- @Solori.6025 – How would I react fast on this situation? I used Save Yourselves, and I also blocked one attack. I tried to heal. It’s all there in slowmotion.

The problem here, is no matter what. I could be distracted, I could be aware on a 1v1 situation, I could be in a group or not. There was nothing to do here. He just teleported and killed me in 1 second with NO CHANCE of doing anything.
What? If I was able to tank that, everything else he’d do would be low damage? I don’t think so. If with all my defense traits, a class can still 3 hit kill. I don’t think this is right.

A glass cannon thief caught you distracted, with all of your cool downs gone and you died because of it; an interloper coming upon you when your vulnerable and being built to do a lot of damage is pretty much means a person is SOL, regardless of class. I had a similar experience recently when I was in a prolonged fight, I had lost a few thousand health but still had lots (16 thousand total) when ‘BAM’ I lost it all in a single moment (less time then it took the thief to kill you). It took me a second and checking my dmg tab to realize that I had been kill shotted by a glass cannon warrior who had chanced upon me distracted and fighting another. I got stomped a few moments later. It definitely sucks but it’s a byproduct of the way WvW is built.

Draw.7529:

Ugh, I knew this would happen. You guys are missing the point, so I’ll have to explain everything else since you talk about everything but the intended situation.

- I said no cry intended. I’ve never lost a 1v1 fight against a thief until now. Altho this wasn’t much of a fight. I just wanted to know what happened here, because this damage was way too suspicious to me. I’m not asking for tutorials or anything too.

- That ranger. He was low lvl, I used every greatsword skills. It’s normal to a guardian take someone down with that. He was distracted and took all the skill. It’s a balanced weapon since you can kite pretty well (it’s slow attack move, slow spinning but strong dmg). STILL, this wasn’t the point. He was low lvl anyway.

- I’m not glassy. It’s like you didn’t read my stats. All I’m missing is having vit/tough on my armor instead of precision/tough. Everything else, including runes and trinkets are vit/tough.

- I didn’t see the thief, still not the point. I know I was heading to a zerg group and I was probably going to die, just trying to take one with me, or distract them. Still not the point.

- @Solori.6025 – How would I react fast on this situation? I used Save Yourselves, and I also blocked one attack. I tried to heal. It’s all there in slowmotion.

The problem here, is no matter what. I could be distracted, I could be aware on a 1v1 situation, I could be in a group or not. There was nothing to do here. He just teleported and killed me in 1 second with NO CHANCE of doing anything.
What? If I was able to tank that, everything else he’d do would be low damage? I don’t think so. If with all my defense traits, a class can still 3 hit kill. I don’t think this is right.

I knew this was gonna happen

“I didn’t see the thief, still not the point.” yes it is the point i saw the thief in the video so did many others the fact you ignored him is why you died if you would have pressed the attack against him he would have gone down like that ranger or even quicker Simple at the end of the day you out positioned yourself and ignored a GC that’s your fault.

“I’ve never lost a 1v1 fight against a thief until now. Altho this wasn’t much of a fight. I just wanted to know what happened here, because this damage was way too suspicious to me. I’m not asking for tutorials or anything too.” how you ignored the thief and went for the rangers tells me you have not had alot of 1v1s with thiefs or in general and you would know the damage they or any GC is capable of, i also like how you go into major defence mode trying to justify your 3sec on the ranger.

. I’m not asking for tutorials or anything too.

We gave you a pretty indepth guide to how that happened yet you get upset that we put effort in to help you against that would you have preferred it if we said “Lol L2P Newb”? i dont know why i bother to help people

most if not all classes have that type of burst potential with glass cannon builds….i can easily do that kind of damage on my static discharge eng in same amount of time….just use more abilities that hit for less in same time frame

Actually most classes don’t have that kind of burst potential.

Columba.9730:

Actually most classes don’t have that kind of burst potential.

Yea, they do!

You have 16k hp, and how Anet said damage works. Vit/health is counter to burst. Toughness is counter to constant damage. Maybe try to get some more health?

Draw.7529:

Ugh, I knew this would happen. You guys are missing the point, so I’ll have to explain everything else since you talk about everything but the intended situation.

- I said no cry intended. I’ve never lost a 1v1 fight against a thief until now. Altho this wasn’t much of a fight. I just wanted to know what happened here, because this damage was way too suspicious to me. I’m not asking for tutorials or anything too.

- That ranger. He was low lvl, I used every greatsword skills. It’s normal to a guardian take someone down with that. He was distracted and took all the skill. It’s a balanced weapon since you can kite pretty well (it’s slow attack move, slow spinning but strong dmg). STILL, this wasn’t the point. He was low lvl anyway.

- I’m not glassy. It’s like you didn’t read my stats. All I’m missing is having vit/tough on my armor instead of precision/tough. Everything else, including runes and trinkets are vit/tough.

- I didn’t see the thief, still not the point. I know I was heading to a zerg group and I was probably going to die, just trying to take one with me, or distract them. Still not the point.

- @Solori.6025 – How would I react fast on this situation? I used Save Yourselves, and I also blocked one attack. I tried to heal. It’s all there in slowmotion.

The problem here, is no matter what. I could be distracted, I could be aware on a 1v1 situation, I could be in a group or not. There was nothing to do here. He just teleported and killed me in 1 second with NO CHANCE of doing anything.
What? If I was able to tank that, everything else he’d do would be low damage? I don’t think so. If with all my defense traits, a class can still 3 hit kill. I don’t think this is right.

You react fast the same way everyone else reacts fast, its a matter of keybinding things to be easily accessible and not panicking.
You had time to react, you just didnt, for what ever reason.
You also should try building bunker.. With more Vit and toughness..

My ele is sitting at 21k hp with full vit/power trinkets and gear and doesnt take nearly the astronomical damage you took in 3 seconds from one source

Columba.9730:

Actually most classes don’t have that kind of burst potential.

I can name 4 others besides this class :I

Columba.9730:

Actually most classes don’t have that kind of burst potential.

D/D Ele, Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers.
Mesmers and Warriors can/have higher burst then us.

Arsenic.8259:

Columba.9730:

Actually most classes don’t have that kind of burst potential.

D/D Ele, Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers.
Mesmers and Warriors can/have higher burst then us.

Truth.

from my stand point your post shows you might want to look at your build, im a glass cannon thief hitting anywhere between 2-12k burst damage in a second or so but the catch is, 2500 armor and 20k hp, its wonderful, you might want to double check how you have your guard spec’d

Arsenic.8259:

You have 16k hp, and how Anet said damage works. Vit/health is counter to burst. Toughness is counter to constant damage. Maybe try to get some more health?

That’s pretty respectable for a Guardian not selling out completely to health and toughness. Here is an experiment for you to check out. Go to the Hearts of the Mist and work on some offensive Guardian builds and see what level of health you end up with.

Solori.6025:

Mechanix.5719:

Archonis.7249:

Mechanix.5719:

Hey at least he wasn’t “perma stealth” and tbh that deer did alot of damage but in all honestly that was just a GC thief you would have died anyway since you pretty much charged a zerg but one thing you did wrong was running away from the thief NEVER run away you give him the best chance to Back stab and tbh if you gonna go toughness go full tank since in this game there isnt really a in between

You can run away from us, but always be aware where the thief stealthed and not run towards it like this guardian did.

hang on im a thief player too im not trying to take a shot at the thief he also saw the thief and ignored it and ran straight for the ranger

He also got hit by basalisk, and stood in the same spot after getting out of it, he had a good second in a half to roll, pop aegis, pop his heals, and start over fighting the theif.
Since he puts out enough damage to 100%-1% someone in 3 seconds.

He was stunned and then rooted. He slowed the footage down, he died before he had control of his character. Only thing that could have saved him was a stun break and a guardian anti-burst ability like shelter or renewed focus.

Thats how you can tell they have no clue how to balance classes
when a Guardian (the Tankest profession in the kitten game!) gets 3 shotted…

Well, a guardian relies on blocks, blinds, and defensive CDs for survivability. Since a guardian has a low health pool they are vulnerable to burst when their defenses and cooldowns are down.

What this means is that a thief typically only has success against a guardian when they attack while that guardian is preoccupied fighting someone else.

Causic.3798:

Thats how you can tell they have no clue how to balance classes
when a Guardian (the Tankest profession in the kitten game!) gets 3 shotted…

The guardian is the tankIest class only if specced for that.
Thief damage is fine, that thief was squishy, even more than the op. Not saying the class is balanced, just the dmg is not the problem at all.

The thief was using a classic backstab build, by the looks of what hit you, it was double venom double signet build, that’s a minimum of 14 stacks of might and 15% extra damage for 5 attacks, he could also have might on dodge which would grant something along the lines of another 4 stacks of might.
Given that each stack of might is 35 power and he had a minimum of 14 stacks, that’s a bonus of 490 power, because you have a fair degree of toughness you only got hit for a “reasonable” amount of damage, with the same build I’ve done 7k mug followed by 7k CnD and 10k+ backstab although that was against a glass cannon… so it could have been worse for you..

Doing some number crunching on guardian.

If as the op says he has those stats and all knights armor and all pvt trinkets not sure what jewels he has if its valk then my numbers are right. If its knights then I have to change a few things.

here is what the OP should have if he is running valk trinkets even with knights weapons which offer no HP at all.

HP should be : 17,895

Armor should be: 3405

Tough should be: 2194

Vit should be: 1625

So something is off in the OP’s gear claims. If he is using knights then his HP is gonna be lower and toughness higher obviously. Then the OP’s problem is he has alot of Tough and no HP pool at all. I have like 1.3k vit and 16.1k hp on my thief so something is off here.

16.6k health is commonly thought of by many guardians as an acceptable amount.

It may be true that he must build fully defensive or suffer through this. That may even be by design. In my personal opinion that is bad game design as it leads to much frustration.

I’m still not going to call nerf on the thief. I think the situation is more complicated than that. The problem is more fundamental.

Extra vitality and toughness are not meant to make your character a walking tank that can brush off burst damage. If you expect to be able to stand around and just take the burst damage of a GC thief throwing everything he has at you then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of GW2’s game design. These are only meant to supplement your character.

A guardian is noted for being the most ‘tanky’ because of their weapon/utility skills for mitigating damage. In other words, it is the tools available to the player to respond to damage that make the guardian hard to kill, not relying on their passive attributes to see them through it.

The OP did nothing to counter the thief therefore he died.

I wouldn’t say he did nothing.

He did pop protection, regen, and aegis along with his heal skill. i’m not sure he could have dodge rolled with basilisk and immobilize on him and i don’t see a condition wipe available on his bar(unless he is traited to wipe 3 on his F2).

All he really had available was shield 5, do you think that is what he should have gone with?

i’m of the opinion that at that particular situation where he is sitting with 200 hp there really isn’t anything he could have done. he was already toast.

If the damage is not te problem, then Toughness is. With over 3k Toughness and 16k health, that’s pretty much as “tanky” as a guardian gets.

Guardians can probably get up to 19-20k health, but there will be ZERO damage comming from him.

That is NOT the solution.

To say that the only way to survive getting 3 shotted is to never do any damage by stacking VIT, is not the answer.

if you believe that, then you’re only promoting the ability to 3 shot any class in defense of the class that you play.

Yes, there are some things he could have done: Shelter + Focus. But we all know that the Thief just needs to reset the fight to come at it again w/o the guardians cooldowns gone.

There wasn’t much he could do, although he could activated virtue of courage to give him time to use his heal. Most of his abilities where on cool down and that’s the main reason he should have died imo. He was an easy kill for any burst build, especially one with some kind of CC.

I think people have the wrong idea about how this game works, although this is based entirely on how I think it works :P The game is about skill and how players respond and act more than it is about gear and stats. Sure you could slot some vitality and toughness gear to help deal with burst damage, but this isn’t nearly as effective as slotting shadow step, endure pain, mist form etc in your utility bar to avoid the damage completely. If you don’t have anything to counter another build, either because it’s on cool down or didn’t bring it, then don’t be surprised if you die to it.

The mug+CnD+backstab combo can only be used once every ~40 seconds btw. This is a longer cool down than many skills you can use to counter it, assuming you only decided to bring one.

Alex.6940:

There wasn’t much he could do, although he could activated virtue of courage to give him time to use his heal. Most of his abilities where on cool down and that’s the main reason he should have died imo. He was an easy kill for any burst build, especially one with some kind of CC.

I think people have the wrong idea about how this game works, although this is based entirely on how I think it works :P The game is about skill and how players respond and act more than it is about gear and stats. Sure you could slot some vitality and toughness gear to help deal with burst damage, but this isn’t nearly as effective as slotting shadow step, endure pain, mist form etc in your utility bar to avoid the damage completely. If you don’t have anything to counter another build, either because it’s on cool down or didn’t bring it, then don’t be surprised if you die to it.

The mug+CnD+backstab combo can only be used once every ~40 seconds btw. This is a longer cool down than many skills you can use to counter it, assuming you only decided to bring one.

Pretty much agree with this. However, I think one-trick ponies are bad for overall gameplay. I’d like to see some of the burst combos (across all professions) nerfed and damage spread out a bit to other abilities to encourage balanced play.

Bunker builds would also have to be nerfed appropriately. Burst builds should still be available and be dangerous but the extremes need to be put in check a bit, IMO.

Draw.7529:

Hi. I don’t mean to cry or anything, that’s why I came to this section of the forum to ask you what’s the logic on this situation I recorded here by mistake. I should have checked the combat log but at that time I didn’t really care until I’ve re-watched what happened.

So, I’m not the tankiest Guardian, but I think I have a pretty good defense. Could have more, but I could have a lot less, and not to mention, what if I wasn’t even a Guardian in this situation.
I have 30 toughness, 20 vitality/healing power. Knight armor (tough), soldier runes (tough/vit), and tough/vit trinkets

Still, one Thief alone, was able with only three hits, deal this damage in this order:
4410dmg, 4651dmg, 7344dmg.

How is this even possible? I repeat, no cry intended. Just studying the situation.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFvDU22TL_4

You need breakstun + dodge and aegis, easy to escape.

he had aegis when he started casting his heal.

i’m not sure what virtue of courage would have done for him.

Virtue of courage is instant iirc, so he could have activated it during the heal skill animation after his first aegis was removed.

It’s very easy to counter.

Shelter, in my opinion is the best heal. Purely because you can use it to block so much potential damage and it doesn’t reward you for not using it.

Using Virtue of Resolve quickly is also important. It just takes a little bit of practice so you don’t go in to panic mode.

Everyone can see thief’s do too much damage except players playing thiefs…mmm why is that?

JCWolf.1674:

Everyone can see thief’s do too much damage except players playing thiefs…mmm why is that?

did you not see how fast the TANK guardian took down that ranger? lol

JCWolf.1674:

Everyone can see thief’s do too much damage except players playing thiefs…mmm why is that?

No what you can’t see is that everyone can get insane damage numbers in full glass gear. Think about this +50 crit damage is +200% damage. That is not a thief trait anyone can get this. Just go put all your points in crit and crit damage put some points in power. Grakittenerker and watch big numbers.

Anyone can do it. Thief gets a bit more burst because of its traits but honestly if you just went to any site and looked at the thiefs traits in critical and power lines and you will see this is one of the things they are designed to do.

JCWolf.1674:

Everyone can see thief’s do too much damage except players playing thiefs…mmm why is that?

Not even close, i play a ranger (commonly considered the worst class in trade wars 2).

Alex.6940:

Virtue of courage is instant iirc, so he could have activated it during the heal skill animation after his first aegis was removed.

true, but.. considering how much good the first aegis did. do you truly think that would have turned this situation around?

Well don’t be surprised that you got facerolled in ‘’1 sec’’ even if you spec entirely for defence.When will people understand that guild wars 2 doesn’t work that way.This is Not a battle of stats.Guild Wars 2 is not about who has the highest toughness and power.Its about active defence , you know ,Not let it hit you.

NightyNight.1823:

Well don’t be surprised that you got facerolled in ‘’1 sec’’ even if you spec entirely for defence.When will people understand that guild wars 2 doesn’t work that way.This is Not a battle of stats.Guild Wars 2 is not about who has the highest toughness and power.Its about active defence , you know ,Not let it hit you.

Well, i understand your point but passive mitigation does in fact have an effect on the outcome of a fight.

maybe who has the highest toughness and power isn’t a factor when you’re always fighting people worse than you. but when you encounter your equal those things come a little more to the forefront in regards to importance.

JCWolf.1674:

Everyone can see thief’s do too much damage except players playing thiefs…mmm why is that?

apparently anet doesn’t see it so remind them every day.