[Videos] WvW Outnumbered / Zerg Slaying (D/D)

[Videos] WvW Outnumbered / Zerg Slaying (D/D)

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

UPDATE 2/4/2013: After a lot of positive response, I’ve made a new outnumbered commentary video:


Over the past month I’ve created several videos highlighting heavily outnumbered fights in WvW on my D/D thief. These videos are comprised primarily of 1vX situations, as well as a few small-group vs zerg situations.

Playlist of all videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE&list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

The most recent video (today) is commentary of my tactics as the fights unfold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCWywAXmVP4

My spec is D/D and can be found in the info at the bottom of any of the videos.
I use Valkyrie armor, berzerker weapons/jewels. Runes of the wurm, sigil of bloodlust, sigil of fire, sigil of force. For full gear/spec display, see the end of the commentary video, or the end of my 4th video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kupkZLVQ5XY ).

Please enjoy and feel free to share comments. I’m happy to provide further information to anyone interested.

Thanks for watching!

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

(edited by Yashi.8703)

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Posted by: Eviscera.9703

Eviscera.9703

Nice video! Very educational. I’ve been looking for a similiar tanky build. I’m kinda bored of P/D condi build (Very boring =s) but it’s effective. I’m looking for a more tanky D/D or S/D build but with decent damage.
Subscribed btw =D!

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

Thanks, Eviscera I’ve never looked back with my current build/spec. I find the damage is still more than enough and the added survivability is paramount to surviving in the outnumbered situations I prefer to fight in.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

Good Stuff,

but I’m a little perplexed why you picked Sided Strikes and Hidden Killer as they both don’t synergize with each other.

I would have thought getting Fury at 50% HP might be better.

I’m also not sold on Practiced Tolerance as it doesn’t add all that much HP, especially with a low Precision build.

I also saw you use Sigil of Force which is understandable considering you have Hidden Killer but 5% Crit would probably add more overall DPS as you have very high Crit-Damage.

Also, do you feel the 10 points in Acrobatics are really worth it, as opposed to getting Mug. I guess it’s hard to argue against 1000 HP but I’ve only found Acrobatics worth while if you go at least up to Feline Grace.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents.

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

Tier 1 players are bad

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Posted by: Faeyd.5094

Faeyd.5094

Over the past month I’ve created several videos highlighting heavily outnumbered fights in WvW on my thief. These videos are comprised primarily of 1vX situations, as well as a few small-group vs zerg situations.

Playlist of all videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE&list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

The most recent video (today) is commentary of my tactics as the fights unfold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCWywAXmVP4

My spec is D/D and can be found in the info at the bottom of any of the videos.
I use Valkyrie armor, berzerker weapons/jewels. Runes of the wurm, sigil of bloodlust, sigil of fire, sigil of force. For full gear/spec display, see the end of the commentary video, or the end of my 4th video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kupkZLVQ5XY ).

Please enjoy and feel free to share comments. I’m happy to provide further information to anyone interested.

Thanks for watching!

Very nice vid Most valuable bits of the vid are the decisions around when to back off to stay in the game. Very nice.

Tiger

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Posted by: vinceftw.5086

vinceftw.5086

This was sick!

I’m a recent level 80 thief and haven’t got a lot of my gear yet. Only a few exotics. I was going backstab build but I switched over to PD for more survivability but this looks amazing. When my PD is fully geared I’m making some valkyrie armor too!

Elxyria – Engineer / Deluzio – Mesmer
Quickblade Vince – Thief
The Asurnator – Elementalist

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Posted by: Xenth.2408

Xenth.2408

Nice vids and editing. I watched the last 5 you uploaded.

Thief has been my main for a long time but I like glass cannon for PVE/Dungeons. I’m only up to around 4k kills in wvw so not super experienced compared to a lot.

I’m working on an alt thief now. I got sick of either being squishy in wvw or having to deal with trait/equipment changes. I may try a build like yours. I can see having a high crit chance from gear isn’t as important as long as you have 100% crit chance from stealth for backstabs. The valk armor is actually great for your playstyle.

Whether I go this type of build or a condition build, I definitely won’t go squishy build. I’d rather not be a one hit wonder GC – take out one or two people then run for your life screaming for momma…

If they ever fix culling you’re going to have a harder time against the numbers you were sticking around to fight, but I’m sure you’ll adapt.

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Posted by: Agadar.4931

Agadar.4931

Your comment that rangers are usually ‘quite easy targets’ broke my heart.

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

more awesome videos! thanks!

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

@ Dee Jay – Thanks for the comments, I’ve definitely had many similar thoughts and you raise good points.

1. Side strikes and Hidden Killer definitely don’t mesh. Hidden Killer is a must for me, and Side strikes is more there as an assist when I’m already out of stealth (bladestorming a clump of enemies or using shortbow, for example).

2. I’ve debated replacing side strikes, and fury at 50% definitely is an interesting option – I may give it a shot. I think my justification so far is that Side strikes is 7% all the time (and I almost always hit from the side/back), whereas the fury trait is only if I drop low on health, and the 45sec internal cooldown on it kind of turns me off.

3. You’re correct Practiced Tolerance doesn’t add much HP. However, I use it because there’s no other trait I deem better in its place for this play-style. The only other option is Critical Haste for a chance to proc quickness; however, I found that I don’t care for that since it causes me to lose rhythm with my cloak & dagger chains (if I suddenly start attacking faster but continue to expect to C&D at the same time, it ends up firing faster and I hit the stealth immunity.)

4. Acrobatics is critical for me.
a. The swiftness on evade is amazing as it lets me close gaps faster or escape quicker.
b. The fall damage reduction & blinding powder is extremely important for me in WvW. It basically becomes another escape utility or opener stealth in many situations.
c. I can swap to Fleet Shadow as needed to increase my move-speed by a ton while in stealth.
d. As a note, I am not a fan of mug – I feel it is a poorly designed trait and adds to the “omg 1-shotted by thief, nerf” discussions. I also don’t like that I have to rely on steal for it – too long of a cooldown and no real utility besides some more damage.

@Xenth, thanks. I actually look forward to them fixing culling, definitely needs to happen. And I have a feeling I won’t be too affected. I rely on the chaos and confusion in the midst of a zerg and am only ever out of stealth for at most 3 seconds – with proper evades while out of stealth, I hope to continue similar to how I do now, just with more challenge added.

@Agadar: Sorry. I really feel for rangers – was my first class. I really want them to be awesome. But in WvW they still are … not. Very low escapes, easy to avoid and suppress. They have to be extremely well played to become a threat.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: Toolbox.9375

Toolbox.9375

o_o Wait, the turrets were actually a PROBLEM? How often are they an issue? Which ones are the most disruptive? Have turret Engineers ever been a MAJOR roadblock, or are they more just nuisances? What about Engineers in general, ever have difficult fights with them?

The class is always greener on the other side.

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Posted by: Calae.1738

Calae.1738

That my friends is player culling in action right there. I can’t wait until culling is fixed. Try that again when it is. Garunteed you’ll get face planted instantly.

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

o_o Wait, the turrets were actually a PROBLEM? How often are they an issue? Which ones are the most disruptive? Have turret Engineers ever been a MAJOR roadblock, or are they more just nuisances? What about Engineers in general, ever have difficult fights with them?

Sorry if it wasn’t clear – they certainly were not a major problem, hence why I didn’t destroy them. Nuisance is the better description, but when I’m fighting outnumbered, all those nuisances add up. The net turret especially can be a problem if I’m trying to manage incoming damage from multiple enemies and need mobility.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: Hynoris.3684

Hynoris.3684

“I could not resist bladstorming here,theres so many people i wanted to see the numbers”

The history of my life man,its so futile most of the times but i just cant resist the spinning thrill …

and nice video got some real good stuff from it.

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

@ Dee Jay – Thanks for the comments, I’ve definitely had many similar thoughts and you raise good points.

After playing with your spec a little I’ve actually reached the same conclusion about Mug. I’m still picking Furious Retaliation over Sided Strikes though. Just makes more sense with most target dropping around 50% HP after the first Backstab.

One issue I thought I’d raise is that you use Singet of Shadows.

While I can understand why it kind of makes the “Swiftness on Dodge” redundant as well as the Fleet Shadows. Movement speed increases don’t stack so Swiftness is really only a 8% increase over Singet of Shadow.

Instead I would propose you use Singet of Agility for the Condition Removal and extra Stamina it provides.

(edited by Dee Jay.2460)

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

@ Dee Jay – Thanks for the comments, I’ve definitely had many similar thoughts and you raise good points.

One issue I thought I’d raise is that you use Singet of Shadows.

While I can understand why I kind of makes the “Swiftness on Dodge” redundant as well as the Fleet Shadows. Movement speed increases don’t stack so Swiftness is really only a 8% increase over Singet of Shadow.

Instead I would propose you use Singet of Agility for the Condition Removal and extra Stamina it provides.

You definitely have a good point with Signet of Shadows. I sometimes will swap it in for Signet of Agility, or more commonly for blinding powder (the extra on-demand stealth is great for escape, extra damage, or especially reviving a teammate).

To be honest, I should be swapping out that signet more often. However, I have to admit it is often because I get lazy and want the base 25% run speed while moving around in WvW (since the swiftness on evade won’t help for long travels across the map). I really hate swapping utilities back and forth, thus where the laziness comes in. The 25% base run speed does still help in fights though, since I don’t have a source of vigor buff so can’t always be evading to get swiftness. Signet of Shadow’s on-use is also briefly useful if I need to get a quick stomp off but am not in stealth (I can use it to blind and prevent guardian downed knockback, for example).

In the end, mobility + stealth are my key defenses in outnumbered fights so I’m always leery of giving up perma-25% move-speed. I definitely need to play with it more and appreciate the suggestion – it’s very valid

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

I have really learned much from your vids. Im new to pc gaming in general so any bit of advice helps. For example using steal when your stomping a thief and he ports away. When i saw that my mind just was blown. And simple things im beating myself up for for not doing like CnDing before a stomp. Thanks much.

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: Ropihl.2150

Ropihl.2150

Very nice video, I hope I can learn from it and maybe replicate it. Not as well, of course. Need some training first! I do appreciate the build not being another 30/30/last10doesntmatterpowerpwnageonly thief. Your damage is just as high and mobility is just as important.

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Posted by: Karolis.4261

Karolis.4261

Nice vids and editing. I watched the last 5 you uploaded.

Thief has been my main for a long time but I like glass cannon for PVE/Dungeons. I’m only up to around 4k kills in wvw so not super experienced compared to a lot.

I’m working on an alt thief now. I got sick of either being squishy in wvw or having to deal with trait/equipment changes. I may try a build like yours. I can see having a high crit chance from gear isn’t as important as long as you have 100% crit chance from stealth for backstabs. The valk armor is actually great for your playstyle.

Whether I go this type of build or a condition build, I definitely won’t go squishy build. I’d rather not be a one hit wonder GC – take out one or two people then run for your life screaming for momma…

If they ever fix culling you’re going to have a harder time against the numbers you were sticking around to fight, but I’m sure you’ll adapt.

Honestly thats not a big drop in crit chance. By swapping your zerker armor to valkyrie you drop to 40 % crit chance w/o food from 50-55 %. You still crit a lot. And with the right foods you can buff your crit chance back to zerker levels.

PvP hero Valentin in action!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HiYUlhsO_M
cough*keyboardturningclicker*cough

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Posted by: swinsk.6410

swinsk.6410

Your character is almost exactly like mine. A few small variations in traits, 1 piece of armor is different but very similar.

You also play the same way I do when soloing. I dropped my shortbow for a sword though to use against warriors and guardians. I find it’s easier to kill the tanky targets in 1v1 with sword.

Also, when there is a tanky reviving a squishy the daze stops them. Also pretty useful.

Just another noob thief…

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Posted by: TNoD.8143

TNoD.8143

I’d also suggest the new Cavalier jewels for some extra toughness while keeping all the crit damage.

Very nice build, inspired me for my current build

Lord Vrael [ÆÆÆÆ] – Borlis Pass

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Posted by: Brando.1374

Brando.1374

I went with a build similar to this but I choose to go 10/30/30/0/0

so far with 2 days running this I have only died due to mass CC and bad stealth utilization

Xxkakarot [GF] Good Fights
Dark Wizard Incar [GF] Good Fights
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot

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Posted by: swinsk.6410

swinsk.6410

I think if you are a solo/small man thief 30SA with shadow rejuv is a must. You don’t have any survivability without it. Nothing to give you HP over time.

Just another noob thief…

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

I went with a build similar to this but I choose to go 10/30/30/0/0

so far with 2 days running this I have only died due to mass CC and bad stealth utilization

Yeah man this is the build i run. Not full GC but able to take a decent amount of hits.

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Well this guy seems upset those fights could have gone a totally different way if he missed 1 cloak and dagger. I am sure he has died to fighting more than 1 person by missing a cloak and dagger but who would watch that? I know you wont read this but I wanted to reply cause its a forum.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Lofat.2406

Lofat.2406

You probably think you’re such an awesome player don’t you? Well when a game allows 1 player to beat 5 something is wrong. You can talk about all your skill all you want to. That is what most of you guys do, either boast yourself up or cut the other person down. This video is enough to show me that not only is this class broken but this whole game’s pvp is also as a result. How exactly does allowing a player to effectively have a pause button during a fight not seem unbalanced? I’m talking about stealth. Don’t bother replying to me, I won’t read it, tired of insults.

The class isn’t broken… It’s wvw… If people want balanced and fair etc… go to sPVP or something, but don’t bash the OP’s play cause you can’t do what he does so automatically you say it’s not fair. It’s wvw, and wvw isn’t balanced around 1v1 or 1v2 or even 1v3+ fights. It’s balanced around objectives and points. If I can keep a group of 5+ occupied (win or lose) I consider it a win cause they could have just as easily went and capd a supply camp or something. /Cheer for the OP and his vid on a good show with great skill.

P Sutton – 80 Warrior
Ferg Crossing

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

Thanks every for the support and kind words.
I’ve been getting a ton of positive response, so I’ve gone ahead and made a new commentary video:

Also note that I’ve now switched to Divinity runes (finally had the cash to afford them). Wurm still works great if you can’t afford Divinity.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: swinsk.6410

swinsk.6410

I like your videos. Good stuff.

The spin to win thieves are hilarious. I laugh when I notice a thief hit DS on inc in 1v1 vs. another thief.

You should use the shadowstep/steal while finishing thieves more often. I think you can also use sword #2 while stomping to make your stomp finish.

Most other stomps are helped by blind. Can’t do anything about eles mist form tho.

Just another noob thief…

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Posted by: Goorman.7916

Goorman.7916

I played my own variation of this build, and i liked it! Thanks for sharing it.
Also in my variation i swapped signet of shadows for binding powder permanently and since all three utility skills are deceptions, shadow arts I major trait(-20% to deception cooldowns) becomes great.And 50% movement speed while in stealth also helps to move faster.

Ash Goorman, 80 level ranger
Lavern Goorman, 80 level thief
Spvp rank 41

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Great video and very clear commentary.

I hope the Arenanet game designers watch this video as well

Deniara

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

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Posted by: brunohstein.9038

brunohstein.9038

You are a great player, there is no doubt about it. I can’t do that well with my thief. You have good positioning and a great timing.

Do you play other professions as well? Are you able to do that well with them?

(edited by brunohstein.9038)

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Posted by: Saeviel.5769

Saeviel.5769

Hey ! Great job, I’ve really enjoyed it.
Just one simple question. Wouldn’t Shadows Embrace be better instead of Infusion of Shadow ? You’ve got no condition removal (only HiW)

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

Hey ! Great job, I’ve really enjoyed it.
Just one simple question. Wouldn’t Shadows Embrace be better instead of Infusion of Shadow ? You’ve got no condition removal (only HiW)

Yeah, I’m really torn between the Condition Removal in Stealth and the Blind on Stealth.

Both are really powerful and every time I have one I wish I had the other.

But Infusion of Shadows is too good to pass up in a WvW build since it allows you to keep using Cloak and Dagger without having to worry about Initiative. Without it you couldn’t afford to constantly cloak off random targets which is essential in WvW. It also ensures that First Strikes in the Critical Strikes tree is almost always active.

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

Hey ! Great job, I’ve really enjoyed it.
Just one simple question. Wouldn’t Shadows Embrace be better instead of Infusion of Shadow ? You’ve got no condition removal (only HiW)

Great question. Shadow’s Embrace is definitely nice, but I can’t sacrifice any other traits for it. I actually find that the constant heal I get from Shadow’s Rejuvenation outweighs the condition removal in almost every case. The heal ticks for ~350 every second or so, which actually negates the damage of a good amount of conditions; the only time I find Shadow’s Embrace would be more needed is if I had a lot of condition stacks on me that Shadow’s Rejuvenation can’t offset. However, if I’m stacked with a lot of conditions, chances are I’m already stealthed and retreating so the threat is reduced anyway.

Also note that I do have condition removal in the 2nd part of the Shadowstep utility. Sometimes I will also run sword in my 2nd weapon set for the condition removal attached to that as well.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

You are a great player, there is no doubt about it. I can’t do that well with my thief. You have good positioning and a great timing.

Do you play other professions as well? Are you able to do that well with them?

Thanks! Yes, I have played every class since beta, and have most in the 50-60 level range. I have an 80 guardian as well. To be honest, no, I can’t come close to this type of play-style on the other classes. Without stealth, no amount of added tank or burst would let me cleanly survive against these odds to nearly the same extent. If I had to pick a different class to attempt this play-style, it would probably be a tanky condition kit engineer since they have a massive amount of utility, tools, and kiting capability to make up for the lack of stealth (and they can also stealth with combo fields). Take a look at some of Teldo’s footage for examples.

Do note that playing and fully understanding the in’s-and-out’s of every other class is a must though to be able to predict their moves and counter them effectively.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: Lokheit.7943

Lokheit.7943

Great videos, and I really like how you reason every move you make. It shows how only Thieves with good skill and knowledge of what they’re doing (and what everyone around hi is doing) can do this, instead of the typical line of though other players from other professions have crying to nerf the Thief just because they don’t understand what’s happening when they fight a good Thief.

You informed yourself of what other profession would do as your comments showed. I think other players from all professions should do this.

(edited by Lokheit.7943)

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Posted by: Lasraik.9285

Lasraik.9285

Loved the videos, and thank you for the Thief information. Keep up the great work.

Guild Wars 2 Guildm, Thief Forum and Online Community: http://www.furiant.org

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Posted by: Yashi.8703

Yashi.8703

Loved the videos, and thank you for the Thief information. Keep up the great work.

Thanks, appreciate the support all!

I’ve just released a new video highlighting 3vX Outnumbered fights. Be sure to turn on Youtube annotations as I explain tactics and information as the fights progress.

Yishis [RIOT] – teamriot.org – Blackgate
Thief / Engineer / Ranger
1vX Videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE50VtH1YHTOygGC9_umIOED3kKgsXfeW

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

Thanks Yashi, you have helped me become better

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

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Posted by: Lithril Ashwalker.6230

Lithril Ashwalker.6230

is having 5 sup divinity runes necessary? or will having ruby orbs cut your survivability down too much? div runes gonna break my wallet and my faith

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

is having 5 sup divinity runes necessary? or will having ruby orbs cut your survivability down too much? div runes gonna break my wallet and my faith

I pretty much ran this same build, He using those runes since they give you everything and an added crit bonus. You can use sup runes of the wurm as they give you health, or the equivalent that gives you toughness. As for your weapons and trinkets, everything is ruby to give you your potency, so no, youre fine

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]