Guild Wars 2

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Caltrops was fine before the patch, didn’t need any adjustment. It was strong but not overly strong. In sPvP it doesn’t cover the full area, in WvW there is a LOT of open areas. This is what was mitigating caltrops before.

Thieves also have issues with putting conditions on targets other than bleeds. This makes large stacks of bleeds easy to wipe. This was agreed upon with the dev’s in the state of the game interview when it was brought up. So what do they do in this patch? Nerf thieves ability to bleed in multiple ways -.-

Seriously… what the kitten…

IMO mesmers are in a fine place atm. They have some serious mechanical drawbacks if you know how to exploit them… mainly if you dodge/block/bilnd them when they are creating a phantom, no phantom is created… this makes them the ONLY class where aoe/multi hitting attacks don’t even occur due to a dodge/block/blind. The GS buff was nice, but izerker is still bugged and has no fix in sight.

Ele’s on the other hand need a solid smack with the nerfbat.

Aberrant.6749:

Thieves also have issues with putting conditions on targets other than bleeds. This makes large stacks of bleeds easy to wipe. This was agreed upon with the dev’s in the state of the game interview when it was brought up. So what do they do in this patch? Nerf thieves ability to bleed in multiple ways -.-

Seriously… what the kitten…

This is the problem with Arenanet’s strategy in balance mechanics. The incredibly painful, stretched-out pace of small changes every month is simply NOT fast enough. Small changes is always a good thing, because if something goes wrong, it is relatively easy to invert those changes and try a different solution.

However, I guarantee that we will not see any buffs like promised additions of other methods of condition applications like burns, or methodical, non-spike bunker-buster approaches like the mentioned “boon-hate”, for months, if not over a year from now. In other words, the team is perfectly happy to sit on professions being kicked in to the dirt for extensive periods of time. Ranger comes to mind. Monthly is NOT enough. We need weekly balance tweaks, at MINIMUM. I have this horrible sinking feeling that the “balance” changes at the end of each month are almost just a criterion, a tick for the “what have we added this month?” box. The whole thing feels lazy, contrived and uninformed. The sudden last-minute jump to a total non-solution is good evidence of that.

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

PvE stealth agro (bye bye downed #3)

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Dancing dagger change

HS change

O lord what else can we list?

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

rootnode.9546:

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

You asked and now its not good enough?

rootnode.9546:

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

For a profession that has its mechanics entirely built around burst its a bit of a biggy, akin to what an illusion nerf would be like to a mesmer.

rootnode.9546:

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

One of the thief’s strengths is burst, so it is a big deal for thieves.. it now sound like you are grasping for something to keep your argument up in the air.

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

One of the thief’s strengths is burst, so it is a big deal for thieves.. it now sound like you are grasping for something to keep your argument up in the air.

Yet mesmer burst >>>>>> thief burst

And

Its on a significantly shorter CD.

Jinks.2057:

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

One of the thief’s strengths is burst, so it is a big deal for thieves.. it now sound like you are grasping for something to keep your argument up in the air.

Yet mesmer burst >>>>>> thief burst

And

Its on a significantly shorter CD.

Lets not turn like rootnode.. i have a mesmer too..

Their burst requires a bit more setup.. and ours is faster to apply..

in terms which does more burst, if both went GC i would still lean to the thief..

MESMERS however.. can leave their phantasm alive and also have super high single target sustained dmg.

Thus thier burst is better since they can force the CDs and reburst much quicker.

Never said it was faster said better….o and they hit how many targets with shatter?

Ralathar.7236:

So what I hear from this thread is that there is now room to buff thief in PVE in other ways.

They could give thieves three times the health, armor, and damage of a warrior, but our rotations would still feel like unpolished, awkward garbage.

Jinks.2057:

Thus thier burst is better since they can force the CDs and reburst much quicker.

Never said it was faster said better….o and they hit how many targets with shatter?

yes ok then i agree..

Reburst quicker? Not really. And a mesmer with a really high burst also sacrifices a LOT of survivability and makes an easy kill. There’s no easy escaping for him.
Yes, thieves rely on burst, but it was a bit too high to begin with imho.

rootnode.9546:

Reburst quicker? Not really. And a mesmer with a really high burst also sacrifices a LOT of survivability and makes an easy kill. There’s no easy escaping for him.
Yes, thieves rely on burst, but it was a bit too high to begin with imho.

Again with misinformation. Stop lying please.

We all know all about mesmers “sacrafice” in survivability for going glass…..you’re just trolling. Quite badly too

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

rootnode either you are a troll or you clearly write posts without checking your assumpions/facts, and in the process losing credibility:

1. thieves have no medium hp pool, they have the lowest hp pool a someone else said (next time /wiki thief or google “gw2 wiki thief”)
2. given n.1, your claim of the “necessity” to nerf zerker thieves survivability is a joke, because it’s based on a totally flawed logic (you assume thieves have more hp than they really have, double check your facts/assumptions next time)
3. you say there is no need for caltrops to last more than 10 secs, but you dont explain why: by this logic (or maybe we should say “non-logic”) there would be no reason for them to last more than 1secs, or maybe they should not last at all, and disappear immediately.
N.B. i’m not advocating the old caltrops duration, i’m just showing that even in this regards your logic doesnt work, because you forgot that the burden of proof is on you who claim the nerf was warranted.

there are at least 2 hints that this revealed fix was rushed into the game and doesnt hold any place in regards to the PvE thief, just look at its consequences: the nerf hit both survivability and dps but
1. thieves had low PvE survivability already, having both the lowest hp pool and the lowest armor rating, relying on dodges/shadowsteps to survive
add that in GW2 stealth doesnt prevent you from being hit by AoEs, and it doesnt reset aggro either, and that when you stealth and stay stealthed you are doing only a tiny part of your dps (thats why when you play d/d you use CnD only to follow immediately with a backstab, you dont use it to stay perma stealthed)
2. thieves had not the highest DPS, and the fix nerfed it quite a bit anyway (just see scootabuser’s video for some math about the d/d rotation, posted earlier in this exact thread too)

that should be enough for any logical player to see that if a fix was needed for the sPvP/WvW/whatever perma stealth abuse, it was not the revealed duration increase, which ended up impacting PvE more, where thieves were not the dominant/most wanted class anyway.

come on, it’s pointless to advocate this nerf since we are talking about PvE: stealth was not that useful before the patch except maybe to skip some packs of mobs, survivability wise it didnt add anything to a thief that already used dodge/shadowsteps to their best, and dps wise thieves didnt deserve a nerf at all because their best dps was only single target (if anything that was their true niche, given that warriors are 10 times better at cleaving trash mobs down, and this game seems to be an AoE fest tbh)

tl, dr: this nerf was rushed, it hit PvE a lot more than PvP and didnt even fix the problem in PvP apparently, so it was a total failure, it would be nice if a dev answered telling us what they want to do now, or if they want to revert the fix.

ps: start playing all other classes before asking for a nerf, else you’re just whining and sounding like a troll.
mes/war/engi/thief/ele 80 here, played through most of PvE with each of those classes, with PUGs mostly

So what are the odds of Arenanet actually entering open conversation about this? Or even reverting the changes? Have there been any rollbacks in the history of GW2 at all?

Captainlasercannon.8914:

So what are the odds of Arenanet actually entering open conversation about this? Or even reverting the changes? Have there been any rollbacks in the history of GW2 at all?

The Mesmer shatter buff was half reverted after they quickly discovered how much of a mistake it was.

stof.9341:

Captainlasercannon.8914:

So what are the odds of Arenanet actually entering open conversation about this? Or even reverting the changes? Have there been any rollbacks in the history of GW2 at all?

The Mesmer shatter buff was half reverted after they quickly discovered how much of a mistake it was.

Oh, alright. Do you happen to roughly remember how long it took them to realize their mistake?

Captainlasercannon.8914:

stof.9341:

Captainlasercannon.8914:

So what are the odds of Arenanet actually entering open conversation about this? Or even reverting the changes? Have there been any rollbacks in the history of GW2 at all?

The Mesmer shatter buff was half reverted after they quickly discovered how much of a mistake it was.

Oh, alright. Do you happen to roughly remember how long it took them to realize their mistake?

I can almost guarantee that IF they consider reversing this change, it’ll be with the April monthly update at the earliest.

In the 2012-12-14 update, Shattered Strength got it’s might duration increased from 5s to 10s (if I remember well) and number of might stacks increase from 1 per illusion shattered to 3 per illusion.

Then in the 2013-01-03 update they reverted the number of stacks of might down to 1 per illusion.

15 days to revert such a change which was said to be very OP. Which was technically as fast as they released normal updates.

Auesis.7301:

Captainlasercannon.8914:

stof.9341:

Captainlasercannon.8914:

So what are the odds of Arenanet actually entering open conversation about this? Or even reverting the changes? Have there been any rollbacks in the history of GW2 at all?

The Mesmer shatter buff was half reverted after they quickly discovered how much of a mistake it was.

Oh, alright. Do you happen to roughly remember how long it took them to realize their mistake?

I can almost guarantee that IF they consider reversing this change, it’ll be with the April monthly update at the earliest.

Sigh, they should dedicate more manpower to these issues. But i guess that’s a common thought. I feel like they’re trying to maintain some form of hype by adding new content while in turn cutting on bug fixing and polish. Quite sad.

krumhur.3207:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

rootnode either you are a troll or you clearly write posts without checking your assumpions/facts, and in the process losing credibility:

1. thieves have no medium hp pool, they have the lowest hp pool a someone else said (next time /wiki thief or google “gw2 wiki thief”)
2. given n.1, your claim of the “necessity” to nerf zerker thieves survivability is a joke, because it’s based on a totally flawed logic (you assume thieves have more hp than they really have, double check your facts/assumptions next time)
3. you say there is no need for caltrops to last more than 10 secs, but you dont explain why: by this logic (or maybe we should say “non-logic”) there would be no reason for them to last more than 1secs, or maybe they should not last at all, and disappear immediately.
N.B. i’m not advocating the old caltrops duration, i’m just showing that even in this regards your logic doesnt work, because you forgot that the burden of proof is on you who claim the nerf was warranted.

there are at least 2 hints that this revealed fix was rushed into the game and doesnt hold any place in regards to the PvE thief, just look at its consequences: the nerf hit both survivability and dps but
1. thieves had low PvE survivability already, having both the lowest hp pool and the lowest armor rating, relying on dodges/shadowsteps to survive
add that in GW2 stealth doesnt prevent you from being hit by AoEs, and it doesnt reset aggro either, and that when you stealth and stay stealthed you are doing only a tiny part of your dps (thats why when you play d/d you use CnD only to follow immediately with a backstab, you dont use it to stay perma stealthed)
2. thieves had not the highest DPS, and the fix nerfed it quite a bit anyway (just see scootabuser’s video for some math about the d/d rotation, posted earlier in this exact thread too)

that should be enough for any logical player to see that if a fix was needed for the sPvP/WvW/whatever perma stealth abuse, it was not the revealed duration increase, which ended up impacting PvE more, where thieves were not the dominant/most wanted class anyway.

come on, it’s pointless to advocate this nerf since we are talking about PvE: stealth was not that useful before the patch except maybe to skip some packs of mobs, survivability wise it didnt add anything to a thief that already used dodge/shadowsteps to their best, and dps wise thieves didnt deserve a nerf at all because their best dps was only single target (if anything that was their true niche, given that warriors are 10 times better at cleaving trash mobs down, and this game seems to be an AoE fest tbh)

tl, dr: this nerf was rushed, it hit PvE a lot more than PvP and didnt even fix the problem in PvP apparently, so it was a total failure, it would be nice if a dev answered telling us what they want to do now, or if they want to revert the fix.

ps: start playing all other classes before asking for a nerf, else you’re just whining and sounding like a troll.
mes/war/engi/thief/ele 80 here, played through most of PvE with each of those classes, with PUGs mostly

I already apologized for the health pool mistake. I noticed.

So, do you also mind the lowest health pool your ele shares with your thief? Even more if you take into account that an ele has even worse armor?

Yes, I saw that video. But even then, the DPS is still very high. And I can relate to the mostly single target DPS (playing a mesmer main), but that’s just how the class is. Thieves just aren’t AoE type classes.

If it’s totally unplayable in PvE, then stop using the thief for PvE until they fix it. If not, adjust. I agree on the warrior part though.

But give it 1-2 weeks and people will adjust. Maybe find other builds.

I suggest you avoid comparing Thief to Ele simply by HP and armor. Eles are capable of healing immense amounts on a whim, and have vast access to boons. Thieves can do neither. They are not comparable by health and armor alone. In terms of survivability and in some cases mobility, my Ele laughs in the face of my Thief. Jack of all trades, master of all of them (except damage, for the most part). Arcana is just…godly.

rootnode.9546:

…
So, do you also mind the lowest health pool your ele shares with your thief? Even more if you take into account that an ele has even worse armor?
…

Since most Eles are D/D your assumption is wrong. The protection boon gives Eles more effective health as the med armor of a thief can provide.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Increased revealed from 3s to 4s, this only affects the proper thiefs and not the type that burst you down in what seems one hit and runs off to only strike back like a minute later when all skills are off cooldown again.

It hasn’t affected my game too much (I play d/d and p/d depending on what I feel like :P) but it did kill the rotation, I was forced to drop haste(stomping only) for Shadowstep incase I get knocked down or rooted or something, because 4s revealed is so deadly.. with the loss of Haste I find it impossible to even win a 1 on 3 when all of them are upscaled because they can simply pick eachother up. My guardian would smoke them.

Thief is seriously no threat.. and it wasn’t even one prior to the patch, it’s just the nature of bad players whining on the forums about thiefs. My only complaint about thief is Shadow Refuge because it even allows the worst player to escape a fight when they deserve to die.

rootnode.9546:

iNaddict.8021:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

Name a prior nerf that hit thieves harder than mesmers.

Assassin signet change

Oh, a loss of burst…wow…

Thieves require burst because while we’re dodging/evading/stealthing we’re not outputting damage whereas a lot of other classes are outputting damage during this time.

rootnode.9546:

Yes, thieves rely on burst, but it was a bit too high to begin with imho.

Then how do you support this change that was recently made, when it modifies roughly…oh… 0% OF YOUR F’ING ARGUMENT!

I’m growing increasingly weary of people suggesting that this change effects burst builds. It does not in the slightest. Your entire argument is completely invalid. Thieves can still do everything they did to you before. If their burst was really that high, explain how this change is helping when, for all intents and purposes, you’d be dead by the end of it anyway? An extra second before they stealth and stomp on your glassy corpse?

Christ.

Sceinna.3561:

Increased revealed from 3s to 4s, this only affects the proper thiefs and not the type that burst you down in what seems one hit and runs off to only strike back like a minute later when all skills are off cooldown again.

The nerf affected me a great deal. I play a lot of fractals as a melee type with my thief. By the time I’m writing this, I have already reached level 49 using dagger-daggers exclusively. As a melee type, and a thief, I heavily rely on stealth as a way to compensate for the low base health and medium armor thief’s have at level 80. Stealth allows me to remain up close and even -to some extent- control, indirectly, who the mobs engage in my group. Needless to say, every time I go out of stealth I’m vulnerable. Assuming you’re fighting a bunch of mobs and they are all clumped up, as soon as you go out of stealth and you are close by, a few of those mobs will, most likely, target you and attack. With a little effort, I used to be able to manage (by that I mean tank or dodge) the series of attacks just fine before I could re-stealth again. This has now become exponentially harder, even though the reveal buff was only extended by 1 second. Basically, I have to tank and dodge damage for 4 seconds instead of 3. This is no easy task by any means at fractals level 40+. If anyone is familiar with the ascalonian fractal, I’m sure they will testify that, yes, one volley from the mages or knight will bring you down instantly, and tanking that is just not feasible.

In hindsight, I guess this is the fundamental difference between PvE and WvW or PvP. Npc’s will target and attack you the second you go out of stealth and they will keep doing so for the full duration of the reveal de-buff, until you can re-stealth again. In WvW it might take the player as much as a second or 2 before he/she is able to locate and attack you. Pre-patch, this, essentially, gave them less than a second to damage you, which is not merely enough time to bring you down.

I guess the basic idea with this nerf was to, simply, give players more time to react whenever a thief engages them. Unfortunately, this minor change was much more of a severe blow for the PvE thief than anything else.

I really dislike playing a long-range style and I would very much want to keep continue playing as a melee type thief in PvE, but, sad to say, with the recent patch, this just doesn’t seem like a viable option anymore.

Laika.8795:

rootnode.9546:

Yes, thieves rely on burst, but it was a bit too high to begin with imho.

Then how do you support this change that was recently made, when it modifies roughly…oh… 0% OF YOUR F’ING ARGUMENT!

I’m growing increasingly weary of people suggesting that this change effects burst builds. It does not in the slightest. Your entire argument is completely invalid. Thieves can still do everything they did to you before. If their burst was really that high, explain how this change is helping when, for all intents and purposes, you’d be dead by the end of it anyway? An extra second before they stealth and stomp on your glassy corpse?

Christ.

The burst argument was about the assassin’s signet change.

My “glassy” corpse is actually full toughness. That extra second doesn’t help me in terms of survivability, but actually in terms of fighting back.

Well with the caltrops and 1 second increase to revealed my condition bleed build felt pretty awkward to play so now I am playing around with sword/pistol instead of pistol/dagger. The changes honestly doesn’t look like it will hinder a pvp burst thief at all and is almost entirely pve. Thieves will still be able to just stealth continuously as long as they don’t break stealth by attacking and if they do it will most likely be because an opportunity showed itself and it was worth it.

Condition bleed builds however seem to have taken the brunt of these 2 changes at least and they didn’t do more damage then straight up dagger to begin with so I don’t see why they needed to be hit. But I will just change traits for a while to something else I guess.

So does anyone know a decently fun sword/pistol build for mostly farming and occasional pve stuff?

If they don’t fix this problem that they’ve caused then ill effectively have lost all faith in the balancing of this game.

Agnima.3714:

Well with the caltrops and 1 second increase to revealed my condition bleed build felt pretty awkward to play so now I am playing around with sword/pistol instead of pistol/dagger. The changes honestly doesn’t look like it will hinder a pvp burst thief at all and is almost entirely pve. Thieves will still be able to just stealth continuously as long as they don’t break stealth by attacking and if they do it will most likely be because an opportunity showed itself and it was worth it.

Condition bleed builds however seem to have taken the brunt of these 2 changes at least and they didn’t do more damage then straight up dagger to begin with so I don’t see why they needed to be hit. But I will just change traits for a while to something else I guess.

So does anyone know a decently fun sword/pistol build for mostly farming and occasional pve stuff?

All truth. P/D was just hit so hard I put away my pistol for a while and respecced for acro dagger bleeding/power hybrid in stead of stealth P/D, gear worked out fine with a second dagger.

It’s fun, but it’s not as much fun as shooting people. I played P/D as much for the aesthetic and fun factor as I did for the playstyle. AcroBlossom is fun… but I look goofy doing it. That I hate.

JonPeters.5630:

As we played with the stealth changed mentioned in the SotG, we recognized that in conjunction with the change to culling this was an unpredictable change to make. We also felt that it was too big of a hit to these stealth professions, so we ended up pulling that change in favor of just increasing revealed duration by 1 second.

Errr…you say stealth professions but I play THE stealth profession. Big small difference in global nerfs tbh.

After running other classes and this last nerf I’m retiring my Thief until Revealed is back to 3 sec. Quite sad that such a fun class has to endure these disappointing changes. ANet, you had something that felt really good to play, now its just clunky.

PvE needs the old Revealed.

Reckless and cheap nerf. You can’t nerf a class like this! You either pick burst, or overall dps, or defensive abilities or stealth or mobility! But not ALL at once!

uzu.7351:

Reckless and cheap nerf. You can’t nerf a class like this! You either pick burst, or overall dps, or defensive abilities or stealth or mobility! But not ALL at once!

Funny enough, burst is not affected at all from this patch. The ones that took it in the groin were the sustained dps builds with points in SA.

The 1 sec additional debuff doesn’t even fix the Cloak and Dagger WvW issue that was the real problem. They screwed all other thief builds over, but those thieves can still exploit the perma stealth from CnD. CnD needs to either: enforce the revealed state, have less of a stealth, or cost more initiative to use.

ANET needs to identify the problem before attempting to fix it. The problem isnt the revealed state, the problem is CnD being exploited to stay nearly perma stealthed. Before CnD was exploited by chaining it on a Gate/Wall. Now they are chaining it on NPCs inside enemy towers/keeps. A group of 15+ people can’t find 1 thief because he times CnD to stay chain stealthed.

The thief times it so they will only be visible for a fraction of a second yet still gets off a powerful attack. And if he gets a mug off during that second, its a powerful hit able to kill stragglers.

rootnode.9546:

My “glassy” corpse is actually full toughness. That extra second doesn’t help me in terms of survivability, but actually in terms of fighting back.

That is the most pathetic excuse I’ve ever heard. If the difference between three and four seconds is game breaking in your eyes, sounds like a learn to play issue. That one second has not modified my play style in the least bit, and if you were getting stealthed on EVERY 3 seconds, someone needs to teach you how to dodge/evade/gain distance (or play a mesmer, in general).

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Jinks.2057:

rootnode.9546:

Thing is: Berzerker Thieves finally pay up a little in terms of survivability. And please don’t cry about the health pool. You have a medium health pool, but still medium armor.
I think the patch was not only warranted, but also necessary!
And caltrops from 15s down to 10s? Why on earth would you need them on the ground for more than 10s?

You’ve been posting a lot of gloating posts since this update. Now you are also posting misinformation.

How about you stop it and realize the next class up for castration will be the mesmer.

And we ALL know just how ezmode mesmers really are.

Sorry, I somehow remembered medium health pool, my bad.
Yes, Mesmers have received various nerfs with almost every patch. But I adjusted to it.
Mesmer Ezmode? Right… cause we do all the burst damage…

If they are going to nerf shatter builds, I’ll run a condition build. If that is nerfed, I’ll go for glamour. So what? If the class gets totally unplayable, I’ll play another class until they fix it. But don’t tell me that thieves are oh so totally unplayable now in PvE. Just adjust to a new build, or… L2P how many like to answer to people complaining about thieves being OP.

Mesmers have not had nearly the amount of nerfs that thieves have had.

Mesmers are also face roll easy…..more so than thieves.

So please leave thief boards.

I agree, I just tried a Mesmer in PvP, even if I wasn’t THAT good because I didn’t understood well the skills and even the mechanism of the class, kitten it was… I don’t know, I could almost just use all my skills and kill everything without too much troubles.
Stealths, stuns, daze, passive confusion with all the clones/phantasms which makes also PvE easy as pie. And so much more to the table.

No wonder why I see so many human females Mesmers with belly dancer’s clothes lol, it’s so lame and boring to see that.

hidden killer was fixed. Gj, you’re half-way done cleaning up this mess you’ve made

i got one question to the devs and i hope it will be answered:

Will thiefs get their revealed debuff back to 3seconds in pve in the future?

I hope they do but if they don’t, they will need to buff something else to make our class good in pve again.

Lol. CnD affects mob behavior. Just give the mob some behavior mechanics, so people can tell its standing still and aggro’d to a stealth user. Also, if people don’t have the ability to click an npc and inspect a health bar, you might be defending the pc illiterate who also get lost in the trap hallway of AC explorable: this is a learn to play issue not a class balance problem.

Culling has been fixed. The wall/gate cnd hit bug has been fixed. Complaining about mug doing damage is like complaining about warrior berserker might giving him adrenaline or guardian Save Yourselves giving Aegis. Mug is doing its function.
In my opinion, thieves are clinging to stealth so much because out of stealth damage was beaten like the Searing Cauldron Effigy in p1 of Cof explorable. Most every other class has 2k hit #1 rotation but thief roation tinks for half that. Sword is a wet noodle. Even a lv 60 Warrior provides more condition damage. On top of that, poison and trap utilities are still in need of rework to be useful in pve and even while leveling. Poison is just a gimmick thieves decide to take or forced to take underwater. God forbid poisons be useful like soldier shouts, oh no. There’s still the issue that we are the shadow artists but we cannot make stealth benefit other party members outside some petty regen. Stealth should transfer boons and trait buffs the thief recieves to party members,1 initiative returned should be1 sec cd off allies skills on cooldown.

Not to mention us doing less damage than Guardians, mesmers, and rangers who can keep their pet up. And don’t get me started on thief range damage. Thieves maining shortbow? They’re labeled as newbs for a reason. P/P thieves usually wake up sooner or later as well: your animation is awesome, but our ranger “unloads” for 3k a hit 24/7. What good are you?

The best way to get thieves out of stealth is to make GOOD builds that don’t require stealth: like a trap, trixster, ambush thief who bleeds his foes or a Poison specialist or maybe a duelist who specializes in swords (R.I.P. pistol whip). You attract more bears with honey, per se. Right now players are punished for not taking stealth.

Lastly, thieves being the most mobile is said w/out much comparison. Warriors and rangers get perma-swiftness and signet of the hunt or banner charges with little impact on combat readiness, yet thieves have to expend dodges, heals, utilities, initiative, or rune slots (usually 4 of these 5) just to map travel faster than mesmer speed. We enter fights with major utilites on cooldown, which punishes us more than other professions.

edit:

1.

[…] Now the extra second on the Reveal debuff – that’s a whole different ballgame. They clearly didn’t stop to think about the ripple effects. I have to be honest, I don’t have a whole lot of confidence in their competence at this point.

This sums up my thought on Anet handling thief, and why I already switched my main to a warrior. Kinda sad, as I was a 95% PvE thief until they started perma-nerfing the class.

2. The reason why a 4 second revealed after each stealth would be horrible is that it would kill all defensive aspects of the shadow arts line and make the hidden threat trait useless. A 1 sec revealed debuff (or even 0.5 second revealed since CnD has a 0.5 cast time) for exiting stealth without an attack would fix perma-stealth and leave the class mechanic in tact. The 3 second revealed debuff for sneak attacking should be reimplemented in this situation.

3.

Even if clipping is removed, 3 seconds was way too short. […]

Mesmers, Warriors, and Elementalists do not give you three seconds to react to their next attack. I think pve mobs like Dredge might give you that kind of time while they charge up an attack or apply a buff. Warrior knockdown + Eviscerate, Mesmer Chain Shatters, and Ele combos all leave you with less time to react. Necro Signet of Spite slaps you with all conditions instantly! If you don’t catch it fast, your health pool is watering daisies. For the love of mike, The DMV won’t give you a driver’s license if your reaction time takes more than 0.5 sec. I don’t pvp or wvw a lot and I know there are a lot of things besides Cnd, walk behind a target, and backstab that hit hard and fast. One. ONE-THOUSAND. Two. ONE-THOUSAND. Three. ONE-THOUSAND. Poof. 3 seconds of non-stealth not being long enough to immobilize and pummel a squishy is a concept error.

Ekemeister.8905:

…one of the most logically sound indictments of thief nerf BS

I approve of the above post. It is 100% on the spot.

Too bad ANet approves of tears more…

Laika.8795:

rootnode.9546:

My “glassy” corpse is actually full toughness. That extra second doesn’t help me in terms of survivability, but actually in terms of fighting back.

That is the most pathetic excuse I’ve ever heard. If the difference between three and four seconds is game breaking in your eyes, sounds like a learn to play issue. That one second has not modified my play style in the least bit, and if you were getting stealthed on EVERY 3 seconds, someone needs to teach you how to dodge/evade/gain distance (or play a mesmer, in general).

Read it again. It’s not that I have a problem surviving against thieves (so, I know how to dodge, evade, gain distance). But fighting back against stealth is way too cumbersome. Especially if more people are around that give the thief too many opportunities to stealth. But you said it perfectly: “If the difference between three and four seconds is game breaking in your eyes, sounds like a learn to play issue.” Just apply it to your thief. Learn to play with the 4 seconds instead of 3.

rootnode.9546:

Read it again. It’s not that I have a problem surviving against thieves (so, I know how to dodge, evade, gain distance). But fighting back against stealth is way too cumbersome.

This right here shows us you’re pretty much the run to the forums and scream nerf kinda guy.

1. How as a mesmer are you complaining about stealth when you have stealth and a sea of clones? Is it not cumbersome for every other class in this game to deal with mesmers? Well hello Pot…

2. You claim you have zero problems in dealing w/ thieves…..if that is so why are you complaining? According to you…..you beat thieves on the regular. That to me means its balanced, or you’re pretty much lying. So which is it?

3. Leave the thief boards mate….you’re trolling and this will end up people reporting you every time you post here.

g’day