Guild Wars 2

Why does this show that I’m a scream nerf kinda guy? Anyway, as for 1-3:

1) Yeah, right, because mesmers can stealth so very often…. As for the clones: takes about 0.5 seconds to detect the real mesmer.
2) I said I have no problems to stay alive most of the time. Fighting back however… the 4 seconds takes away a bit of your “oh I’m kitten out of here”-card.
3) So, because I have the opinion that the nerf was warranted I should leave the board? If people report me, they should go on and do so. But I think the nerf isn’t as hard a hit as it looks like, I think it’s just a matter of L2P. See for example https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-changes-INCONCEIVABLE/1742139

Of course you can stay here, but as a capable mesmer you shouldn’t have any problems killing a thief (with the sole exception being P/D – maybe).
If you have you’re either built too defensivly or doing something wrong.

Anyway… the stealth change made PvE terribly awkward… really terrible playstyle wise.
And I’m not even talking about our hampered damage (that if anything was too low already for the supposed kings and queens of single target dps) but about the clumsyness that came for free with revealed “interrupting” auto attack chains.
Simply put – awfull playstyle change!

P.S. as many stated already, the stealth abuse didn’t really change – at all. Just does less damage -.- .

I would allso want to hear explenation to nerf our survivability, damage and utility in the last 2 nerfs to stealth (stealth not dropping agro being imo the biggest issue)

The whole profession is terribly akward to play now atleast when u are wielding off hand dagger
And why did you made decision like this to ram us in pve in the 1st place?

1. “Play the game not the UI.”
2. revealed mechanic

Now go and find the error….

On a side note: IF we get increased mobility that would be good but it doesn’t change the fact that shadow arts is now a lot less useful (and that’s mainly because revealed is applied every time and not just on attacks.

Dakan.9463:

On a side note: IF we get increased mobility that would be good but it doesn’t change the fact that shadow arts is now a lot less useful (and that’s mainly because revealed is applied every time and not just on attacks.

That change…it never happened, dude…

But it should have. It really should have.

It wouldn’t make SA less useful, unless you rely on chain stealthing to regen health because you got beat up by your opponent, instead of accepting the loss like a man…

All I can say is that I really hope devs are continuing to examine and test new ideas for stealth, and I guarantee they are. Whether the 4s reveal mechanic changes or not, we will still likely see additional changes to stealth in the next 2 months.

Looking forward to the next SotG!

LordSlack.4685:

All I can say is that I really hope devs are continuing to examine and test new ideas for stealth, and I guarantee they are. Whether the 4s reveal mechanic changes or not, we will still likely see additional changes to stealth in the next 2 months.

Looking forward to the next SotG!

thief class was the only reason I’ve been playing this game as long as I have. If what you’re predicting comes true and if it’s along the same lines as what we’ve been getting, I won’t be looking forward to the next anything. I LOVED thief since day 1. Now it’s getting a lot harder to love it when I try to cnd a boss after a full auto rotation and some extra time given to compensate… and still it doesn’t work.

To a lesser extent, final refuge was the start of it all. Just 1 other thing that should never have been but is.

my pve thief feels “violated” while other classes remain OP in their fields
dps/party support/mobility etc.

leveling my OP guardian as we speak, but the button spam 1234523412432 makes me mad

I agree randomfightfan. All I am saying is that the odds that they never touch stealth mechanics again are slim. Something is bound to change because they still have a pvp problem to address. Don’t have high hopes for pve going back to the way it was, but we’ll see Something.

Leticron.7945:

Anyway… the stealth change made PvE terribly awkward… really terrible playstyle wise.
And I’m not even talking about our hampered damage (that if anything was too low already for the supposed kings and queens of single target dps) but about the clumsyness that came for free with revealed “interrupting” auto attack chains.
Simply put – awfull playstyle change!

This is really the main problem I have with the reveal change. There was absolutely no effect on stealth abuse it just made the D/D, P/D, and S/D sets very awkward to play (especially in PvE). What was wrong with making 3s reveal on any stealth exit? It would’ve actually served a legitimate purpose.

SubjectZero.6497:

Leticron.7945:

Anyway… the stealth change made PvE terribly awkward… really terrible playstyle wise.
And I’m not even talking about our hampered damage (that if anything was too low already for the supposed kings and queens of single target dps) but about the clumsyness that came for free with revealed “interrupting” auto attack chains.
Simply put – awfull playstyle change!

This is really the main problem I have with the reveal change. There was absolutely no effect on stealth abuse it just made the D/D, P/D, and S/D sets very awkward to play (especially in PvE). What was wrong with making 3s reveal on any stealth exit? It would’ve actually served a legitimate purpose.

Getting a three second de-buff each time we stealth would really force thieves to think more before stealthing. As it is know it looks like this:

I’m stealthing, positioning for backstab, target dodges out of the way. But hey! I just stealth again and go for another backstab.

If they would have applied the de-buff when I missed and exited stealth my opponent would have been “rewarded” for actually out playing me by dodging right before my backstab landed. My opponent would then have me out in the open for three seconds (which is a lot for the profession with the smallest health pool and toughness). This would force me to be a better player and actually land every backstab. Now it’s just rinse and repeat or get the kitten out.

Please just fix this. Give us three seconds of stealth each time I leave stealth and make it three seconds instead of four. Those four seconds just made all rotations seem awkward. Most of our auto-attack chains take three seconds, so now it just doesn’t feel right.

You say “Just stealth again” as if it was initiative free. At this point, I’m usually kind of low of that precious resource.

If you have Infusion of Shadow, it pretty much is.

Not everyone uses this trait you know.

Seras.9852:

(stealth not dropping agro being imo the biggest issue)

Seriously, this means – what – next ta nothing in PvP, but screws the hell outta PvE stealth builds? I can always make another build that doesn’t rely on stealth – and I do all the time, I like switching builds – but this has pretty much taken that entire build off my plate. Thanks for taking away my fun, guys.

stof.9341:

You say “Just stealth again” as if it was initiative free. At this point, I’m usually kind of low of that precious resource.

After the usual CnD → Steal → Backstab combo you should have at least 6 initiative left. This means another try without any penalty. I’d much rather have three seconds even if I fail to attack than 4 seconds after I attack.

Please note that I am a PvE/Dungeon only player who has many hours on the class, so please view my comments with this point of view. This is not a QQ post, but one that is really looking for some input from the developers.

Last months patch where stealth stopped dropping aggro was a build breaking change for my previous play style, which caused me to give up the offhand dagger (and the Thief class for a while!) and completely rework my build. I’m still not entirely clear why this was done, since I didn’t have trouble managing aggro under the old mechanic.

Now revealed has been increased by 1 sec, which limits the PvE offhand D builds, but
seems to do nothing to the steath issues in PvP or WvW. I don’t understand this change either.

I’ve seen the SOTG and the published vision statement for the Thief class, but neither of these changes seem to be consistent with this with respect to the PvE Thief.

What is the overall developer vision for Stealth in PvE? Will any of our other trait lines or ablilities be adjusted in light of the diminished usefulness of Stealth for PvE? Are Thieves still supposed to be the most mobile and slippery class in PvE (because currently we are not)?

Laika.8795:

That change…it never happened, dude…

Pretty sure I got revealed every time last week and died several times because of the SA 5 point trait proccing wrong. I apologize for not checking again before posting but I am dead sure that’s what happened to me last week…

Anyways now it seems to be okay so it’s only a nerf damage-wise. The fluidity of the rotation is actually not that much of a problem for me. I can hit CnD after a 5 attack aa chain perfectly… But then again I never relied on a stealth centric build in PvE…

Dakan.9463:

Laika.8795:

That change…it never happened, dude…

Pretty sure I got revealed every time last week and died several times because of the SA 5 point trait proccing wrong. I apologize for not checking again before posting but I am dead sure that’s what happened to me last week…

Usually the Last Refuge trait causes revealed due to it proccing whilst mid-attack thus attacking from stealth, thus causing revealed.

Iphones have Autocorrect, Thieves have Last Refuge!

But seriously… a trait that you cannot choose not to take if you want a certain trait line that is outside of your control that triggers a mechanic that actively punishes you for using it is a BAD idea, it always has been and it always will be.

Dasorine.1964:

But seriously… a trait that you cannot choose not to take if you want a certain trait line that is outside of your control that triggers a mechanic that actively punishes you for using it is a BAD idea, it always has been and it always will be.

Mesmers have the choice to take an almost identical skill. We do not.

Please change Last Refuge to be like Desperate Decoy. In fact, Mesmer’s 5 point trait before the optional Desperate Decoy 10 point trait is 5 Seconds of Vigor on Crit! I’ll gladly accept that in it’s stead!

CHRIST!

Laika.8795:

Dasorine.1964:

But seriously… a trait that you cannot choose not to take if you want a certain trait line that is outside of your control that triggers a mechanic that actively punishes you for using it is a BAD idea, it always has been and it always will be.

Mesmers have the choice to take an almost identical skill. We do not.

Please change Last Refuge to be like Desperate Decoy. In fact, Mesmer’s 5 point trait before the optional Desperate Decoy 10 point trait is 5 Seconds of Vigor on Crit! I’ll gladly accept that in it’s stead!

CHRIST!

Yes then we would acually have superior dodging compared to everyone else asuming you also traited for feline grace.

Oh, btw, they also got rid of double openers from refuge/pistol5 with this extanded revealed…
Bye-bye sneak attack-unload-sneak attack, I loved you.
That’s sad, u know?

Many people already considered thief pve to be bad (I disagree but still) so you go ahead and nerf us more?! Just doesn’t make sense whatsoever.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Any-foreseeable-nerfs
oh they will nerf us even more till thief is really broken.

oh god I hope that’s just speculation and not truth :S

Geiir.7603:

SubjectZero.6497:

Leticron.7945:

Anyway… the stealth change made PvE terribly awkward… really terrible playstyle wise.
And I’m not even talking about our hampered damage (that if anything was too low already for the supposed kings and queens of single target dps) but about the clumsyness that came for free with revealed “interrupting” auto attack chains.
Simply put – awfull playstyle change!

This is really the main problem I have with the reveal change. There was absolutely no effect on stealth abuse it just made the D/D, P/D, and S/D sets very awkward to play (especially in PvE). What was wrong with making 3s reveal on any stealth exit? It would’ve actually served a legitimate purpose.

Getting a three second de-buff each time we stealth would really force thieves to think more before stealthing. As it is know it looks like this:

I’m stealthing, positioning for backstab, target dodges out of the way. But hey! I just stealth again and go for another backstab.

If they would have applied the de-buff when I missed and exited stealth my opponent would have been “rewarded” for actually out playing me by dodging right before my backstab landed. My opponent would then have me out in the open for three seconds (which is a lot for the profession with the smallest health pool and toughness). This would force me to be a better player and actually land every backstab. Now it’s just rinse and repeat or get the kitten out.

Please just fix this. Give us three seconds of stealth each time I leave stealth and make it three seconds instead of four. Those four seconds just made all rotations seem awkward. Most of our auto-attack chains take three seconds, so now it just doesn’t feel right.

So this player is skilled enough to dodge the backstab he can’t see coming but can’t dodge/block the CnD? Dodge the CnD and watch the thief get punished with what’s essentially a global cd on all his weapon skills.

changed 1st post to reflect what really happened and to shed some light on recent events

Ekemeister.8905:

Geiir.7603:

SubjectZero.6497:

Leticron.7945:

Anyway… the stealth change made PvE terribly awkward… really terrible playstyle wise.
And I’m not even talking about our hampered damage (that if anything was too low already for the supposed kings and queens of single target dps) but about the clumsyness that came for free with revealed “interrupting” auto attack chains.
Simply put – awfull playstyle change!

This is really the main problem I have with the reveal change. There was absolutely no effect on stealth abuse it just made the D/D, P/D, and S/D sets very awkward to play (especially in PvE). What was wrong with making 3s reveal on any stealth exit? It would’ve actually served a legitimate purpose.

Getting a three second de-buff each time we stealth would really force thieves to think more before stealthing. As it is know it looks like this:

I’m stealthing, positioning for backstab, target dodges out of the way. But hey! I just stealth again and go for another backstab.

If they would have applied the de-buff when I missed and exited stealth my opponent would have been “rewarded” for actually out playing me by dodging right before my backstab landed. My opponent would then have me out in the open for three seconds (which is a lot for the profession with the smallest health pool and toughness). This would force me to be a better player and actually land every backstab. Now it’s just rinse and repeat or get the kitten out.

Please just fix this. Give us three seconds of stealth each time I leave stealth and make it three seconds instead of four. Those four seconds just made all rotations seem awkward. Most of our auto-attack chains take three seconds, so now it just doesn’t feel right.

So this player is skilled enough to dodge the backstab he can’t see coming but can’t dodge/block the CnD? Dodge the CnD and watch the thief get punished with what’s essentially a global cd on all his weapon skills.

CnD can be used on anything: Mesmer clones/phantasms, ranger pets, necro minions, the rock dogs that pop out from runes, random animals lying around, other nearby players….none of that can be controlled by player dodging/blocking skill.

Pyroatheist.9031:

CnD can be used on anything: Mesmer clones/phantasms, ranger pets, necro minions, the rock dogs that pop out from runes, random animals lying around, other nearby players….none of that can be controlled by player dodging/blocking skill.

and whats the problem with that?

there are other classes out there (namely warriors and necromancers) who can use said pets, and even critters, to build their resource bar too (and gain quite some advantages off that), and yet i’ve never seen people complaining about that.

add the fact that the majority of thieves run with daggers, and daggers are just single target, while any other melee weapons is AoE by nature (= they hit you and the pet, getting rid of both at the same time at no cost, actually warriors gain additional adrenaline too)

moreover, pets dont lose aggro when the thief stealths, nor do illusions despawn, which means that suggesting to remove CnD stealthing off these targets is out of the question (it’s just a disadvantage of the pet mechanic).

are you suggesting that pets should evade when the owner evades too?
in that case, the suggestion forum is probably the right place to post that stuff (i must confess that i would agree with such a suggestion, even if i can’t foresee all the consequences of such a feature..)

to be honest, it’s quite ridiculous that we’re arguing over CnD, while there are better ways to gain stealth in game that dont involve hitting any target at all.
But even if we considered those ways (i’m talking about d/p), the nerf to revealed is still unreasonable because:
1. those builds are perfectly usable even after the nerf, infact there is already a WvW video around about that
2. those builds hold no place in PvE, and if i can still read english properly, this thread is about PvE

tl;dr: the fact that there are still builds (WvW ones mostly – talking about d/p) which can achieve perma stealth shows yet again that this revealed fix was rushed because devs wanted to do something about all the people cluelessly complaining, and in the end they did the worst thing possible, without addressing the issue in question and only messing up (badly) the PvE side of the class.

only good thing is that they claimed they will split more and more skills between PvE and PvP so, hopefully, we’ll see some changes (some positive ones) in PvE at least..

he wasn’t complaining about using cnd on mobs/summons, he was saying the you don’t need to cnd the guy you’re fighting to be able to backstab the guy.

So, ANET is still ignoring us?

Imbaloni.1849:

So, ANET is still ignoring us?

A: yes

DanH.5879:

Imbaloni.1849:

So, ANET is still ignoring us?

A: yes

B: kind of no, read changed 1st post. They got back to me in the pvp forum

randomfightfan.4091:

DanH.5879:

Imbaloni.1849:

So, ANET is still ignoring us?

A: yes

B: kind of no, read changed 1st post. They got back to me in the pvp forum

I’m less optimistic than your edited first post given they say they’re debating it. They probably debated it when they decided to ruin the stealth-based PvE thief experience. That said, I will be very happy if they revert the change.

updated for more possibly good news! Put the info in the 1st post.

So they’re thinking about splitting WvW and PvE?

As in like 3 seconds revealed PvE and 4 seconds in WvW?

That’s going to be a nightmare to get used to for any Thief that actively does both PvE and WvW… It’s bad enough trying to get used to a different timeframe as is, without having to worry about different values elsewhere.

and I’ve only found to have a problem with 4s revealed in pve. Been very easy to use in wvw and pvp. Probably my different playstyles in each of the game modes.

randomfightfan.4091:

and I’ve only found to have a problem with 4s revealed in pve. Been very easy to use in wvw and pvp. Probably my different playstyles in each of the game modes.

I have a problem with the 4s in both…

I guess I just have trouble adapting especially when it’s hundreds of hours of 3/3 (3 Seconds of waiting in stealth for benefit from in stealth traits and 3 seconds of revealed) and then it becoming 3/4. That extra second really throws me off.

In WvW I generally opt for either not using stealth very much (My D/P glassy 30/30 build only used stealth to dive on people in their own supply camps. The stealth being required to prevent mass blinds from the scouts) or I use it often (My current 10/30/30 D/D build is centred around going into stealth as much as possible and only staying in for ~0.25 seconds to throw out the backstab)

This means I do feel the effects of the extra 1 second quite a lot and does mean that I’d probably never get used to the 4 second timings if they were split in PvE and WvW (I spend most of my time in these 2 places)

Yea I don’t do anything like that, when I go stealth, I use it for offensive purposes. I don’t wait any 3s in stealth, I just wait the 3, stealth, attack. Makes me feel like a sustained burst character and I really like that. Plus I don’t go 30 into SA. I’d rather get team boons and some added damage. I’m under the impression that if I kill my target before they can kill me, then I don’t need to remain in stealth for 10 mins to regen mid combat all the time

randomfightfan.4091:

I don’t wait any 3s in stealth

I generally don’t.

But for a while I used a P/D condition build to get to know WvW, so to survive a lot of the classes I faced I used the 3 second wait in stealth for extra heals and condition removal. The fact it coincided with the duration of revealed waiting meant that the timing got extra-engraved into my muscle memory.

I don’t use more than 1-2 seconds in stealth anymore (Outside of running away or being chilled) but the timing has still yet to be re-written for me. Especially since I seem to be quite consistent in getting CnD’s off (Though then again, WvW seems to be filled with 90% Rangers so it’s not hard to find a CnD target)

Also, 30 SA doesn’t necessarily need to be focused around staying in stealth. I use the traits Shadow Protector, Infusion of Shadow, Hidden Assassin and Cloaked in Shadow to gain 5 seconds of Regeneration, 2 initiative, 2 Might stacks and AoE Blind when I enter stealth. This setup relies on being inside stealth as little as possible to be able to shorten the time before re-entering stealth to gain more Regeneration, Might and more Blinds.