Guild Wars 2

Warrior Greatsword Full Berserker Armor and Max Dmg Build

Thief Dagger/Dagger Full Berserker Armor and Max Dmg Build

Tested in WvW and even SPVP later.

First tests of fighting:

Rules:
1) auto attack only
2) initiate at same time
3) attack until opponent is down
4) record Hp of winner

Results of 5 fights

Warrior – 5 wins
Thief – 0 wins

Hp Range of warrior 35-50%
Normal Hp left 40-45%

How does this make you feel?

Fair to lose high armor/tough/hp + blocks/invuln/aegis/stability/protection for stealth?

Should it be changed and if so how?

Discusss.

Well IMO the outcome is as should be expected because greatsword warriors are supposed to be used for constantly damaging the opponent and should be capable of taking a few hits. Thieves on the other hand get their ridiculous dagger damage from the BURST skills, definitely not auto attacks. They are also meant to negate damage through evasion rather than resistance so by taking both of these away from the thief the warrior will no doubt win.

I think the conclusion we can draw from this is that a warrior when paired with a dagger thief who does not possess skills of evasion and/or bursting will probably win.

Nema Tode.5637:

Well IMO the outcome is as should be expected because greatsword warriors are supposed to be used for constantly damaging the opponent and should be capable of taking a few hits. Thieves on the other hand get their ridiculous dagger damage from the BURST skills, definitely not auto attacks. They are also meant to negate damage through evasion rather than resistance so by taking both of these away from the thief the warrior will no doubt win.

I think the conclusion we can draw from this is that a warrior when paired with a dagger thief who does not possess skills of evasion and/or bursting will probably win.

we arent talking skills. we are just relating basic dmg to hp/armor/toughness comparisons.

a thief is supposed to ahve superb dmg. at the very least it should get warrior close. if anet wants it balanced then they should be close in ALL classes. and by close i mean under 25% hp left by any winning class. in spvp its closer ill admit but still obvious that warrior has the best overall defense and skills/utilitiies. their skull crack alone is better than our basilisk venom that can be wiped clean with a blind. pfft. useless.

the thief is like anets ugly child. Its better to keep it locked away in a cupboard feeding it a breadcrumb or 2 when it makes enough noise.

Travlane.5948:

Nema Tode.5637:

Well IMO the outcome is as should be expected because greatsword warriors are supposed to be used for constantly damaging the opponent and should be capable of taking a few hits. Thieves on the other hand get their ridiculous dagger damage from the BURST skills, definitely not auto attacks. They are also meant to negate damage through evasion rather than resistance so by taking both of these away from the thief the warrior will no doubt win.

I think the conclusion we can draw from this is that a warrior when paired with a dagger thief who does not possess skills of evasion and/or bursting will probably win.

we arent talking skills. we are just relating basic dmg to hp/armor/toughness comparisons.

a thief is supposed to ahve superb dmg. at the very least it should get warrior close. if anet wants it balanced then they should be close in ALL classes. and by close i mean under 25% hp left by any winning class. in spvp its closer ill admit but still obvious that warrior has the best overall defense and skills/utilitiies. their skull crack alone is better than our basilisk venom that can be wiped clean with a blind. pfft. useless.

Well the thing is you CANT compare damage to hp/armor/tuffness effectively because yes, thieves are supposed to have superb damage, but this is through burst skills, hence the initiative system. If we actually had to WAIT to use skill 2-5, then auto attack would be much stronger as we would be forced to use it more. Since we are NOT forced to use it often at all, however, it hasnt been blessed with good damage like warriors greatsword who can only perform skills 2-5 once before waiting for its cd.

As for defense, since we have been gifted with very powerful burst skills that can be used in SUCCESSION, we decided to sell our armor instead of our souls

are you using healing signet on the warrior?

it hasnt been blessed with good damage like warriors greatsword

Not really warrior greatsword is considered to have bad AA damage (for a warrior lol). their axe and hammer have significantly higher AA. I believe their axe AA does like twice the damage of greatsword AA or more. the hammer also hits like a truck with the AA, couple of hits will quickly dispatch a thief.

Thief has higher damage than warrior infact it sjust that warriors are great at selfbuffing if you put 25 might on the thief and 25 vuln on the target a cloak and dagger —→ backstab --—> AA —→ repeat rotation will do the highest damage in the game infact.

Now try the same kitten test with a Necromancer using a dagger and see how fast the warrior is destroyed.

Travlane.5948:

Fair to lose high armor/tough/hp + blocks/invuln/aegis/stability/protection for stealth?

Should it be changed and if so how?

Discusss.

Warriors don’t have aegis and protection.

I feel that this is okay. Warriors is about getting up onto your face. Thief is moving in at the right time and get out at the signs of trouble. In this experiment, it is completely in the warrior’s favor in the first place. If the thief won, I would be upset and call for nerfs on the thief.

runeblade.7514:

Travlane.5948:

Fair to lose high armor/tough/hp + blocks/invuln/aegis/stability/protection for stealth?

Should it be changed and if so how?

Discusss.

Warriors don’t have aegis and protection.

I feel that this is okay. Warriors is about getting up onto your face. Thief is moving in at the right time and get out at the signs of trouble. In this experiment, it is completely in the warrior’s favor in the first place. If the thief won, I would be upset and call for nerfs on the thief.

i didnt say they did. plz re read.

guys, obviously more skill is involved here than just auto attack. this is a very very very primitive comparison at a very basic lvl. its just to show you on the extreme bottom end what is going on and then compare skills from there.

what thieves get for the 10 things we dont have…is stealth and about 50% more evades. the question is…. is it worth it not to be able to really WVW or be good in tpvp ?

sorry, i did that test when warriors were free kill, same result

your test does not prove kitten’s kitten, simply because the fact you only used AA, theres skills in this game you know? what a fail.

what pvp community has come to when people think spamming evades or shadowstepping or stealthing take skills now..this game have become so noob friend since months ago now people saying how basic stuff takes skill…ok

also i don’t know why people keep crying about warrior, warrior is like one the easier kill for thief, thieve’s main problem is ranger necro engi and their insane amount of AoEs and conditions that hit thieves in stealth or evades. also AIs

also if you want raw dps chart, fgs ele>thief>guardian>warrior.

This makes no sense. Of course warrior wins this kind of “hit trading competition” because they have high armor and base health.
And yes, warrior is overpowered and they do have too much everything. That’s not news.

WTF you loose on base numbers alone

Greatsword 1,045 – 1,155

Dagger 970 – 1,030

and warrior is not overpowered it is balanced around its job as a front line bruiser wade into combat take hits and give them.

Thief is a Rouge class your supposed to find /Week/ targets and pick them off not go toe to toe with an Abrams tank and expect to win.

dusanyu.4057:

…
Thief is a Rouge class your supposed to find /Week/ targets and pick them off not go toe to toe with an Abrams tank and expect to win.

No one wants to admit they’re weak. Easier to cry for a nerf.

dusanyu.4057:

WTF you loose on base numbers alone

Greatsword 1,045 – 1,155

Dagger 970 – 1,030

and warrior is not overpowered it is balanced around its job as a front line bruiser wade into combat take hits and give them.

Thief is a Rouge class your supposed to find /Week/ targets and pick them off not go toe to toe with an Abrams tank and expect to win.

100 on weapon dmg is not nearly enough to even matter in this. 50% hp left vs 0% (thief).

Im just saying that it should be closer. it should come down to skill and not who has the better base class.

TO WHOMEVER SAYS THIS IS FAIR/MAKES SENSE

by saying this you are saying

STEALTH is the trade off for having the worst HP,toughness,armor, no invulnerable no blocks no aegis no stability no protection and less total attacks per minute (base).

at this point im ready to ask to lose stealth in trade off for the things we dont have. we would be so OP with allthose things plus normal skills…….. stealth is so NOT preferable to all those losses.

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

I would like to know the results against Elementalist and Necro.

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

The difference between warrior and thief burst skill is warrior skills are all highly telegraphed and easy to dodge.

All warrior auto attack chains (except sword which deals low damage) are very slow and do the most damage with the last hit. Axe AA does the most damage of all auto attacks but its also the longest chain on earth (6 hits for 1 chain with the last hit doing the most damage).

All you have to do is evade/dodge/blink/block before the last hit of the chain hits you. This breaks the chain and takes away much of the warriors damage output with auto attacks.

Thief AA (DD) instead is super fast and hard to interrupt because the first 2 hits go out in like no time.

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

Warrior Axe/Shield Full Berserker Armor and Max Dmg Build

Thief Dagger/Dagger Full Berserker Armor and Max Dmg Build

Tested in WvW and even SPVP later.

First tests of fighting:

Rules:
1) Skill 5 only
2) initiate at same time
3) attack until opponent is down
4) record Hp of winner

Results of 5 fights

Warrior – 0 wins
Thief – 5 wins

Hp Range of Thief 100-100%
Normal Hp left 100%

I feel op now

So, a comparison between two classes fighting in a way that should never realistically happen…

Yup, this a comparison dumb enough to keep people here arguing for a long time.

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

Travlane.5948:

dusanyu.4057:

WTF you loose on base numbers alone

Greatsword 1,045 – 1,155

Dagger 970 – 1,030

and warrior is not overpowered it is balanced around its job as a front line bruiser wade into combat take hits and give them.

Thief is a Rouge class your supposed to find /Week/ targets and pick them off not go toe to toe with an Abrams tank and expect to win.

100 on weapon dmg is not nearly enough to even matter in this. 50% hp left vs 0% (thief).

Im just saying that it should be closer. it should come down to skill and not who has the better base class.

TO WHOMEVER SAYS THIS IS FAIR/MAKES SENSE

by saying this you are saying

STEALTH is the trade off for having the worst HP,toughness,armor, no invulnerable no blocks no aegis no stability no protection and less total attacks per minute (base).

at this point im ready to ask to lose stealth in trade off for the things we dont have. we would be so OP with allthose things plus normal skills…….. stealth is so NOT preferable to all those losses.

Why don’t you just play some other class then? Thief is a thief and relies on stealth, deal with it or roll a fotm class.

Big Tower.5423:

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

the problem is you assume that that good player is fighting noobs, where good players in fact can completely shut down good thief… so i do think 50% isn’t far off from the truth

also, as for dmg, warriors would like to talk to you
yes their high dmging abilities might be good telegraphed, but if they wasted it they still get to keep resources + CD is very low while for a thief if CnD for example missed, you lost 6 ini…. no gain back, nothing

eles are another example, they can burst someone down way faster than thieves actually

if there would be way to make a chart with correlation of high risk and dmg, thieves would be really low on that chart due to way too high risk for decent dmg

Master of Timespace.2548:

Why don’t you just play some other class then? Thief is a thief and relies on stealth, deal with it or roll a fotm class.

that is just rude and is not helping the discussion
who are you to tell ppl what to do?

yes thief relies heavily on stealth and it is actually a bad thing, if stealth fails it is pretty much GG, where other classes still have multiple choices; if anet keeps nerfing stealth or any survivability thieves have, eventually thieves would have nothing to rely on

Cynz.9437:

Big Tower.5423:

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

the problem is you assume that that good player is fighting noobs, where good players in fact can completely shut down good thief… so i do think 50% isn’t far off from the truth

Whahahaha good luck shutting down properly played s/d. These posts makes me wonder if half of the people even play this game.
Sure, most of the thief builds out there are bad. D/D can never compete with properly played fotm warriors, ofc not. But that’s a very universal problem in this game that’s not restricted to thieves alone: there are very few viable builds.

Cynz.9437:

Big Tower.5423:

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

the problem is you assume that that good player is fighting noobs, where good players in fact can completely shut down good thief…

That’s a load of cowpie. The only Thief getting “completely shutdown” is a bad Thief, not a good one.

also, as for dmg, warriors would like to talk to you
yes their high dmging abilities might be good telegraphed, but if they wasted it they still get to keep resources + CD is very low while for a thief if CnD for example missed, you lost 6 ini…. no gain back, nothing

Backstab would like to talk to you. Yes, their (thief) high damaging abilities (backstab) might be good telegraphed (stealth), but if they missed, they get to try again with zero resources cost + no CD…

eles are another example, they can burst someone down way faster than thieves actually

lol. Another cowpie. Please post an Elementalist build that “can burst someone down faster than thieves.”

if there would be way to make a chart with correlation of high risk and dmg, thieves would be really low on that chart due to way too high risk for decent dmg

The risk is significantly reduced when Thieves are played by good players. Unlike the other professions, good player or bad player, they are stuck in the same paradigm.

yes thief relies heavily on stealth and it is actually a bad thing, if stealth fails it is pretty much GG, where other classes still have multiple choices;

Oh please. Not every thief “relies heavily on stealth.” That’s so 2012. You need to get your Thieve-aptitude up to date.

if anet keeps nerfing stealth or any survivability thieves have, eventually thieves would have nothing to rely on

Good. Then the nerfing will end, right? Finally. When that day comes, we might see competent buffing.

I’m all for nerfing warriors, we all know they need it. However, this test only proves that you wasted your time. Sorry…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Big Tower.5423:

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

the problem is you assume that that good player is fighting noobs, where good players in fact can completely shut down good thief…

That’s a load of cowpie. The only Thief getting “completely shutdown” is a bad Thief, not a good one.

also, as for dmg, warriors would like to talk to you
yes their high dmging abilities might be good telegraphed, but if they wasted it they still get to keep resources + CD is very low while for a thief if CnD for example missed, you lost 6 ini…. no gain back, nothing

Backstab would like to talk to you. Yes, their (thief) high damaging abilities (backstab) might be good telegraphed (stealth), but if they missed, they get to try again with zero resources cost + no CD…

eles are another example, they can burst someone down way faster than thieves actually

lol. Another cowpie. Please post an Elementalist build that “can burst someone down faster than thieves.”

if there would be way to make a chart with correlation of high risk and dmg, thieves would be really low on that chart due to way too high risk for decent dmg

The risk is significantly reduced when Thieves are played by good players. Unlike the other professions, good player or bad player, they are stuck in the same paradigm.

yes thief relies heavily on stealth and it is actually a bad thing, if stealth fails it is pretty much GG, where other classes still have multiple choices;

Oh please. Not every thief “relies heavily on stealth.” That’s so 2012. You need to get your Thieve-aptitude up to date.

if anet keeps nerfing stealth or any survivability thieves have, eventually thieves would have nothing to rely on

Good. Then the nerfing will end, right? Finally. When that day comes, we might see competent buffing.

A variety of bursts with pretty big numbers (for sPvP).

Maugetarr.6823:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAif9qE4WY

A variety of bursts with pretty big numbers (for sPvP).

Doesn’t prove that it can burst faster than the Thief especially against a medium armor stationary target.

Here, you can even pull out a stop watch if you want.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKC7Vf1Q4Y

Note: In the video, it’s a “heavy” golem, not medium.

CnD…Lol
the 0.5 aftercast on CnD completely kills the viability of that. I don’t remember ever being hit by 1 backstab back before /D got the nerfhammer.

…and 1s casting time of Dragon’s Tooth makes it viable? >.<’

If you can dodge/evade from a backstab, how much more against a big fiery tooth shaped rock on your head?

I don’t think i’ve ever gotten hit by one of those either? ._.

Exactly. So I have all the reason not to believe that Elementalist can burst faster than a Thief. That’s just a wishful thinking on their part.

But who knows, with the help from Anet, that might even become a reality — sadly enough.

Phoenix Air and Arcanes. All instant.
Dragon Tooth is for might stacking….

So, you are convinced that they can burst faster than a Thief.

I used to main ele in Guild wars 1 and in guild wars 1 ele was indeed a burst class. Assassin was a burst class also.

IIRC S/F ele has a 1200 range burst that can instantly down a light armored target. But apparently they’re still not viable in this meta because the meta is just dumb.

IIRC ele and sin were both underpowered in PvP [GvG was the most hardcore form of PvP then and you can watch top teams go at it] in GW1 (well at least ele was sometimes used to carry a flag, whereas sin was just not used at all), and warrior was really op and most guilds would have multiple….. so history does repeat itself.

In GW1, the E/A Burst build is viable only in one PvP format, that is Fort Aspenwood on Luxon side. I used to take out the 3 Kurzicks Guards in one swoop.

In GW2, I am yet to see an Elementalist take out a “heavy” as fast as a Thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In GW1, the E/A Burst build is viable only in one PvP format, that is Fort Aspenwood on Luxon side. I used to take out the 3 Kurzicks Guards in one swoop.

In GW2, I am yet to see an Elementalist take out a “heavy” as fast as a Thief.

it doesn’t have anything besides burst builds though that’s viable in GvG. for sure nothing even close to a D/D ele.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In GW1, the E/A Burst build is viable only in one PvP format, that is Fort Aspenwood on Luxon side. I used to take out the 3 Kurzicks Guards in one swoop.

In GW2, I am yet to see an Elementalist take out a “heavy” as fast as a Thief.

It’s D/D ele instead of fresh air S/D. Maybe it’s not quite as fast as a thief (in some cases) but it is all AoE burst, so really 2 or 3 grouped targets can be taken down in about the same time frame as a glass thief, plus protection, stuns, knockdowns, blowouts, firefields, burning, bleeding, and immobilizes. Thief may eek out a win in terms of single target, but compare the overall utility of the 2.

You know majority of thieves are in wvwvw and there is where our burst shinies we burst in 2 secs same time as being extremly survibable. (10/30/30/0) D/D spec… You know what makes us able to do 1v6? Incredile burst comboed wiht great survablity.

Big Tower.5423:

You know majority of thieves are in wvwvw and there is where our burst shinies we burst in 2 secs same time as being extremly survibable. (10/30/30/0) D/D spec… You know what makes us able to do 1v6? Incredile burst comboed wiht great survablity.

So our damage is good because we can ‘burst’ 5K damage into a tank warrior? And we’re extremely survivable because we can survive approximately 2 seconds in the stun-chain that same tank warrior can lock us down in, and repeat almost indefinitely? I don’t know where you found those 6 that were incapable of killing you with some area-of-effect condition spam, unless they were bunnies?

Deathspike.1870:

Big Tower.5423:

You know majority of thieves are in wvwvw and there is where our burst shinies we burst in 2 secs same time as being extremly survibable. (10/30/30/0) D/D spec… You know what makes us able to do 1v6? Incredile burst comboed wiht great survablity.

So our damage is good because we can ‘burst’ 5K damage into a tank warrior? And we’re extremely survivable because we can survive approximately 2 seconds in the stun-chain that same tank warrior can lock us down in, and repeat almost indefinitely? I don’t know where you found those 6 that were incapable of killing you with some area-of-effect condition spam, unless they were bunnies?

Warrior attacks are way easier to avoid. and its about kiting :P

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In GW1, the E/A Burst build is viable only in one PvP format, that is Fort Aspenwood on Luxon side. I used to take out the 3 Kurzicks Guards in one swoop.

In GW2, I am yet to see an Elementalist take out a “heavy” as fast as a Thief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOc6Lv_BYk

It’s D/D ele instead of fresh air S/D. Maybe it’s not quite as fast as a thief (in some cases) but it is all AoE burst, so really 2 or 3 grouped targets can be taken down in about the same time frame as a glass thief, plus protection, stuns, knockdowns, blowouts, firefields, burning, bleeding, and immobilizes. Thief may eek out a win in terms of single target, but compare the overall utility of the 2.

If that is the claim then I would not have objected, but the cowpie claim is that Elementalist can burst someone faster than the Thief. Who cares about AoE and utilities, that was not the cowpie claim.

Ok here’s the conclusion… Old days: Thief was extremely good because the burst capability in the hands of fast players just simply rocked! It was the whole point of thief.
The recent past: Everyone cried about this capability of the thief but no one actually acknowledged the fact that when the thief was pinned hes was down in 2 warrior hits, or 4-5 necro condis… Nowadays: The thief is a slum profession which cant tank, cant burst, and cant contribute in teamfights…

If the thief was so OP then drop it’s hp to 12k just like the elementalist but dont make him suffer by taking away the ONLY thing that actually made the thief an assassin; his DPS. The good thief players I see nowadays use up 2-3 utilities combined with the ulti (basi) and spam all the initiative to get an average opponent to 40% health and pray for crits all the way… If the enemy survives (which they always do now) they try to evade, heal and wait for initiative so maybe and just maybe they could pray to get another lucky shot… while the warrior just uses his regular routine cycle to get most people down without any skill… Totally absurd stuff Anet has going on in their balancing discussions…

Seay.6190:

Ok here’s the conclusion… Old days: Thief was extremely good because the burst capability in the hands of fast players just simply rocked! It was the whole point of thief.
The recent past: Everyone cried about this capability of the thief but no one actually acknowledged the fact that when the thief was pinned hes was down in 2 warrior hits, or 4-5 necro condis… Nowadays: The thief is a slum profession which cant tank, cant burst, and cant contribute in teamfights…

If the thief was so OP then drop it’s hp to 12k just like the elementalist but dont make him suffer by taking away the ONLY thing that actually made the thief an assassin; his DPS. The good thief players I see nowadays use up 2-3 utilities combined with the ulti (basi) and spam all the initiative to get an average opponent to 40% health and pray for crits all the way… If the enemy survives (which they always do now) they try to evade, heal and wait for initiative so maybe and just maybe they could pray to get another lucky shot… while the warrior just uses his regular routine cycle to get most people down without any skill… Totally absurd stuff Anet has going on in their balancing discussions…

Thief, ele, and guard all have the lowest tier health already (10.8k).

Seay.6190:

If the thief was so OP then…

Nobody is talking about who’s OP or not.