Guild Wars 2

Funny, but from rangers perspective on Thief i have exact opposite impressions.
I ran a thief just to learn how to counter them on ranger. Playing a thief only confirmed how op they are in ANY 1vs1.
(i play p/p //shortbow so hitting the air doesn’t help much. Stealthed or not, i always try to keep the 800-900 distance). Also i don’t even try to come closer, cause i simply don’t use any backstabs or other melee tricks, just pure range.

Well this is different. People just like to say thieves are OP when in reality they just don’t like fighting against the class. Respect to you for realizing what thieves are capable of and countering appropriately.

It’s a shame the level of common sense you’ve been able to achieve is the furthest thing from common I’m just sad it took you 6 level 80s before you found this out and were being a vocal thief hater up until that time.

Thank you for taking the time to actually learn what the class does. Knowing is half the battle and now you know.

LOL, so Thiefs have fallen to the point that they need some sympathy from a Warrior now? I thought that Anet believed that Warriors who need IT.

I did the same thing as the OP, and came to the conclusion that stealth is a stupid mechanic (especially the D/P build).

Normal Thief: Hurr Durr he used Whirling Wrath let me pop Blinding Powder now I can’t take any damage (right?) and oops I died, Stealth is so easy to counter!

Thief who knows how to play: He used Whirling Wrath let me dodge out of it.

Normal Thief: Oh I just went invisible I will just walk in a straight line, how did that Engineer hit me with Grenades? Stealth is so easy to counter!

Thief who knows how to play: I just hit stealth and will now change directions

Normal Thief: Shadow Refuge, look there’s a Mesmer with a Greatsword, let’s just stand here!

Thief who isn’t brain-dead: Dodge!

After playing a lot of classes and coming back to playing a Thief, it’s so darned easy to see how people try and counter stealth, and that there is actually very little way to stop it.

Not discounting the OP’s opinion, of course, but that’s what I personally found.

This is an interesting thread for sure. I started out in GW2 as a GS/S+S Mesmer, changed over to a D/D Ele, and now run a D/P + P/P Thief. I too thought thieves were just impossible to defeat until I got mine to 80 and found out that really, we are rather predictable.

However, even though my Mesmer can burst folks down in seconds, my Thief can pretty much escape any situation where I don’t feel comfortable. That knowledge that as a Thief, I control the battle is a huge aspect to the class that I don’t think any other class can match. Even though my other two 80’s have some great gear and I know how to play them rather well, there are still those situations where I get stuck and there is simply no way out. As for the Thief, it’s rare that I die and when I do, it’s usually because my own ego get’s in the way of logic.

On a separate note, I ran into a full zerker GS Guardian last night who just tore through my small group like we weren’t even a threat. I’ve never really leveled a Guardian beyond the 30’s so I know little about them but he really made us look like total fools.

FinalPatriot.8034:

On a separate note, I ran into a full zerker GS Guardian last night who just tore through my small group like we weren’t even a threat. I’ve never really leveled a Guardian beyond the 30’s so I know little about them but he really made us look like total fools.

Might have been stunningstyles yup

Teamkiller.4315:

FinalPatriot.8034:

On a separate note, I ran into a full zerker GS Guardian last night who just tore through my small group like we weren’t even a threat. I’ve never really leveled a Guardian beyond the 30’s so I know little about them but he really made us look like total fools.

Might have been stunningstyles yup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgYhGde9Qmc

Yeah, his video’s are amazing. I even considered leveling my Guardian up just to play this style/build but the problem is that it’s great if YOU get the jump on the target. Otherwise, I’d expect this type of Guardian would go down quickly.

Well I, and I’m sure many, appreciate you making this thread, Bacon. It sounds like you played a thief long enough to run into the source of the “l2p”, and that is: good players on OTHER classes.
All the thieves didn’t get together one day so they could come up with imaginary weaknesses for the thief. No, rather, it was other players, good players, who have showed us all the ways the thief can be shut down. So when we say “l2p,” it is not an ego trip, it is respect for those who have actually learned to play and are out there fighting the good fight and killing us every day.

I don’t think we need more threads related to that.

Actually stealth has very little counters. I’m a thief main since day 1 and most of the counters people speak about have counters too.

Like timing 1.2.3. roll…?? Seriously? Wow the thief only has to wait until you waste the roll then spam the back stab on you.

Excalibur.9748:

Actually stealth has very little counters. I’m a thief main since day 1 and most of the counters people speak about have counters too.

Like timing 1.2.3. roll…?? Seriously? Wow the thief only has to wait until you waste the roll then spam the back stab on you.

Did that to a warrior last night. 1 BS, HS, HS, spike… Granted, he was a glass cannon but it still felt good.

(I’ll not mention that he hit me once and dropped my health by almost half… )

Bacon Please.8407:

…I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could. It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” …

“…wtf? Where did he go?”

I did that to a warrior once who were predicting my moves. I just stealth and watch him wait for me to pop-out from a safe distance.

LOL

The fact is, if a warrior can predict a Thief, a warrior is much more predictable.

Don’t kid yourself. Thieves learns from experience too.

We are so good at our profession that Anet has to nerf us just so warrior has a chance. :P

Bacon Please.8407:

I honestly feel silly for ever complaining about thieves. They are an annoyance at best for experiences players and really only kill people learning to get around WvW. So if you keep getting killed by thieves play one at level 80 for a few hours in WvW and see how hard it really is.

I think this is the biggest grudge that players have with thieves is that they are really annoying. Not OP. Annoying there is a difference. If they are OP at anything it is escaping a fight. In order for a thief to have a really high chance on a 1v1 he basically needs to be a glass cannon. Otherwise he needs to be able to evade and reset the fight. Hoping that the player he is going against wasted his heals so he can finish it.

Some nice quotes that bring into question the objectivity and honesty of the OP.

Bacon Please.8407:

bladie.5084:

WereDragon.6083:

i’m a P/D thief and I can’t kill D/P thieves.

Nobody can kill a D/P thief.

I am D/P and I have been killed. Therefore your statement is flawed

D/P thief, the weapon combo most in danger of drawing nerfs with extremely high amounts of stealth and the ability to actually heartseeker through black powder and gain stealth even if they hit someone.

Bacon Please.8407:

Engineers and thieves are two entirely different classes. It is like comparing candy to steak. Both can be tasty and have their appealing characteristics and neither are better then the other. I’ve seen an engineer face tank a well coordinated team of players and down two of the 5 before escaping. I Can’t say I’ve seen a thief operate that well other then a few assorted videos here on the forums and ever there it looked like the people that were being killed had no idea what they were doing.

Says that he has seen engineers "face tank a team of well coordinated players and down two of the 5 before escaping. Because an bunker engineer is going to down 2 players out of a well coordinated team of 5…..

Bacon Please.8407:

I Can’t say I’ve seen a thief operate that well other then a few assorted videos here on the forums and ever there it looked like the people that were being killed had no idea what they were doing.

Because you totally look like you know what you are doing when spamming AOE on possible locations of a player you have no way to see or know is there or even still present.

Bacon Please.8407:

The best way to beat a thief is to play a thief. This is coming from a warrior main and let me tell you, it really works.

The irony of this post….

Bacon Please.8407:

I used to main warrior up until a few weeks ago. Hundreds of hour, hundreds of gold spent on multiple sets of gear, runes, weapons, sigils. Just rolled a thief and a mesmer. They both outclass my warrior on everything. Will proabably never touch my warrior again until they either revamp it. Thief and Mesmer is where it is at for pvp and wvw.

join the bandwagon

When he said this one earlier. He now mains a D/P thief as you can see from two of these quotes and is eager to defend his new mains after being unable to match them as warrior and considering no other class on par with them except a well played mesmer.

Oh and the best for last:

Bacon Please.8407:

Ralathar.7236:

Perfect example of how jacked facing a thief is right now. I’m fighting a thief as a turret engie (Ya I know, but it’s fun :P). Hit him a few times and place my turrets as he enters for the kill. Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.
.
.
.
So lets add this up, shadow return removes 3 conditions, teleports you back to where you started from up to 1,200 away, and breaks stun instantly. Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, so any conditions that hurt would be gone and the thief is far away stealthed and running away.

I really don’t know what more I could have done. I condition stacked, immobilized, stunned, and generally wrecked his face but he gets a get out of jail free card. I mean ya I wrecked his face because he was blatantly terrible (rocket turret knockdown is MASSIVELY telegraphed), but he still doesn’t even have to die for being terrible.

He used his skills wisely just as you did. Congrats, he ran away. you won.

Because making a thief run away in open field is winning apparently. But them winning is me dying. Seems legit.

Let this be a lesson to people, be careful what you say. There are people out there that know for example that you no longer main warrior and have not mained warrior for over a month….this based on your own words.

In the video linked I watched till he clicked abilitys

It’s even buried in the mountain of words here lol.

Bacon Please.8407:

5: Playing a thief really changes your outlook on how they operate. When everyone says Play one to Learn one, They really mean it. When I got to 80 on my thief and spent a hundred or so hours in WvW with it, I was able to get back to my warrior and I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could.

You too can counter thieves and all you need to do is spend 100 hours playing thief first!!!

It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” What do you know, He missed and i stun locked him with a hammer.

Oh wait, no, you can counter the BAD thieves who are predictable. Because good thieves are not predictable folks. Predictability is the sign of someone relying on a gimmick, gimmick users are not good players. Example 100b warrior vs a good warrior who happens to use the great sword.

I honestly feel silly for ever complaining about thieves. They are an annoyance at best for experiences players and really only kill people learning to get around WvW. So if you keep getting killed by thieves play one at level 80 for a few hours in WvW and see how hard it really is.

Ironically he can only counter predictable thieves after playing thief for over 100 hours, but calls anyone that cannot counter them “people learning to get around in WvW.”

So after months of complaining I rolled a thief and now after getting decent at it I can say the following…

Oh and he says all of this after spending over 100 hours playing thief and only considering himself “getting decent at it”. So is basing his judgements of how easy it is to counter thief off of him self-admittedly not even being good at it himself after over 100 hours of play on it.

My only real problem with thiefs at the moment is their kitten ability to escape me when they know they went against someone who can easily handle them. I have an 80 thief, I play him around WvW when I’m bored, I been thinking of re-rolling him and making him my new pain sometimes since I get bored of playing the same character after a while.

Are thieves OP? Not really, sometimes they do WAY too much damage, that is something that needs to be re-look at, specially since most of this damage comes from quick auto attacks a back stab and maybe a heart seeker spam. Some of their mechanics need a little rework, their damage needs to be toned down a tad bit or bring other melee classes damage up. But other than that they’re fine I guess.

I solo roam WvW with a Warrior also. The only Thieves I really struggle with are the P/D whittlers, and that’s when I forget my condition duration -% food. Other than that, I usually have no problem. As soon as one approaches, I get extremely aggressive, and it makes them panic. Great fun.

They had better hope they have a teleport ready, because if either Shield Bash or Bull’s Charge lands, that’s it. Game over. Eviscerate <3

Ralathar.7236:

It’s even buried in the mountain of words here lol.

Bacon Please.8407:

5: Playing a thief really changes your outlook on how they operate. When everyone says Play one to Learn one, They really mean it. When I got to 80 on my thief and spent a hundred or so hours in WvW with it, I was able to get back to my warrior and I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could.

You too can counter thieves and all you need to do is spend 100 hours playing thief first!!!

It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” What do you know, He missed and i stun locked him with a hammer.

Oh wait, no, you can counter the BAD thieves who are predictable. Because good thieves are not predictable folks. Predictability is the sign of someone relying on a gimmick, gimmick users are not good players. Example 100b warrior vs a good warrior who happens to use the great sword.

I honestly feel silly for ever complaining about thieves. They are an annoyance at best for experiences players and really only kill people learning to get around WvW. So if you keep getting killed by thieves play one at level 80 for a few hours in WvW and see how hard it really is.

Ironically he can only counter predictable thieves after playing thief for over 100 hours, but calls anyone that cannot counter them “people learning to get around in WvW.”

So after months of complaining I rolled a thief and now after getting decent at it I can say the following…

Oh and he says all of this after spending over 100 hours playing thief and only considering himself “getting decent at it”. So is basing his judgements of how easy it is to counter thief off of him self-admittedly not even being good at it himself after over 100 hours of play on it.

Holy kitten man, got something to prove? The guy is stating is stating own opinion, why such kitten all over that? Yeah you stating your own opinion, but get over your self and stop with this venomous attitude.

Lol Ralathar are you stalking the poor guy? I know having Bacon in the name might be atractive (everyone knows Bacon is great!) but you really seem to have some kind of crazy crush on him to investigate him so much! (just joking don’t take this too seriously or as a personal attack )

Anyway I agree on what others said: Thief is more annoying than OP. There are professions far more OP than Thief, the problem is that normally the way a skilled Thief will play with you is really frustrating (your odds are the same than against others, even higher probably but he’s annoying).

That’s because the Thief excels at choosing fights. This is ONLY a problem when roaming. In PvE it will help you take some skill points protected by champions but that’s all. In PvP it’s great that you can choose not to fight, except that if you don’t you’re making your team lose. In WvW zerg it won’t matter much, at best you will be able to survive a bigger zerg if you see it comming and run as fast as you can. Now *in roaming WvW you can afford to run from a battle because there is plenty of terrain to run, so if you pick duels you have an advantage.

But to be honest, despite it’s a great thing for those situations… those situations means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING*. 2 roamers fighting each other won’t affect the server results at all. It will affect their personal prides, but that fight won’t mean anything at all.

Then there is also the fact that you can completly ignore him. The other day I was with an upleveled guildmate (she was a lvl 55~ Mesmer) so she was at a disadvantage. We were in a situation where we were trying to take a camp protected by some coward ranger that wouldn’t leave the NPCs company (I even defeated him in 1 vs 1 before my friend arrived, but the NPCs resurrect players too fast) and we were constantly attacked by a D/P+S/D Thief, a clones Mesmer and a caltrops D/D Thief from different servers. All of them really adepted at kiting (mesmers aren’t victims of so many cries as thieves but they’re even better at escaping a fight if the know what they’re doing with their stealth and clones combination).

The thing is, we were able to force draws with them all the time and even killed some. But at the end they were just annoying us so I told my friend, as the camp was already protected by even more players of the server to simply ignore those guys (they weren’t able to kill us if we didn’t want to engage and even then we could force the draw so they weren’t a threat for us, just annoying trolls) and go to a different objetive. We soon found an ally mega zerg and with them we conquested 100% of the map.

Our fights against those trolls didn’t mean anything for the server and as soon as we just ignored them instead of trying to prove we could defeat them, we started doing useful stuff and gaining rewards.

So basically: The Thief excels (a lot) at something that is completly useless and meaningless for the game, and that only serves to annoy players and hurt their pride and feelings. Just don’t try to prove you can defeat them in their game. If you don’t want to engage in a fight you will have more than enough resources to ignore anything he throws at you. He can only defeat you if you start putting resources in cooldown in your atemp to engage him.

Because Thieves are great at hurting feelings, a lot of people hate and cry on them, so that’s why we have so many QQ threads around, but honestly, if you ignore pride in those roaming fights and simply do something useful that will give you bigger rewards you will be fine.

BobbyT.7192:

Holy kitten man, got something to prove? The guy is stating is stating own opinion, why such kitten all over that? Yeah you stating your own opinion, but get over your self and stop with this venomous attitude.

I’ve lurked more than I’ve posted and I’ve seen him meander in and out of threads. He is mis-representing his position and has posted conflictory statements. But the title and theme of this thread is intended to give him credence and credibility he no longer has.

It’s really quite simple, he’s protecting his new pet class the way he protected his old. Though in honesty warrior actually needs the support, thief does not. His exact reason for rolling thieves, by his own words, is that thieves and mesmers outclass everything else in WvW and sPVP.

Quite frankly he was right in his assertion. He is also right in his new assertion that it takes skill to reach those levels of power. Skill he self-admittedly does not have playing a thief or countering them. Currently he is at the level of “decent” and he can counter “decent”

Rather than seek to correct some of the few things that imbalance those two classes so the other 6 can be competitive however, he “joined the bandwagon” and is no campaigning to keep them from being nerfed for his own benefit.

I don’t have any problem against him personally, but that whole line of thought and situation quite frankly stinks. When you “join the bandwagon” on the OP classes you just become part of the problem.

Perhaps the saddest thing about it is that a few select things are keeping thieves from having more viable lines and keeping some of the mesmer lines from being smoothed out as easily. But then, some of this may happen with the “major trait overhaul patch” happening at the end of this month. We shall see. I know I for one will laugh if thief or mesmer get nerfed in specific ways.

Ralathar.7236:

BobbyT.7192:

Holy kitten man, got something to prove? The guy is stating is stating own opinion, why such kitten all over that? Yeah you stating your own opinion, but get over your self and stop with this venomous attitude.

I’ve lurked more than I’ve posted and I’ve seen him meander in and out of threads. He is mis-representing his position and has posted conflictory statements. But the title and theme of this thread is intended to give him credence and credibility he no longer has.

It’s really quite simple, he’s protecting his new pet class the way he protected his old. Though in honesty warrior actually needs the support, thief does not. His exact reason for rolling thieves, by his own words, is that thieves and mesmers outclass everything else in WvW and sPVP.

Quite frankly he was right in his assertion. He is also right in his new assertion that it takes skill to reach those levels of power. Skill he self-admittedly does not have playing a thief or countering them. Currently he is at the level of “decent” and he can counter “decent”

Rather than seek to correct some of the few things that imbalance those two classes so the other 6 can be competitive however, he “joined the bandwagon” and is no campaigning to keep them from being nerfed for his own benefit.

I don’t have any problem against him personally, but that whole line of thought and situation quite frankly stinks. When you “join the bandwagon” on the OP classes you just become part of the problem.

Perhaps the saddest thing about it is that a few select things are keeping thieves from having more viable lines and keeping some of the mesmer lines from being smoothed out as easily. But then, some of this may happen with the “major trait overhaul patch” happening at the end of this month. We shall see. I know I for one will laugh if thief or mesmer get nerfed in specific ways.

I think your taking things way too seriously, chill out, it be good for your health :P

Ralathar.7236:

To sum up yes, I’m stalking him.

Thieves never really bothered me much. Sure they kill me, all the time actually,, but not really ever when I’m doing anything. Maybe strolling across a field, running down a road or just goofing around. I can’t remember the last time I was I any sort of important battle with more then 3 people and was like oh wow that stealth thief on their side is an unstoppable beast!

And really from my experience with stealth classes people have problems with them because they don’t think like them. They are just busy running down the middle of roads and assuming if you can no longer see it, it must not be there.

wvw and pvp is different
and stealth is not op, blind is.

original poster is right. Thieves can be countered. There stealth and dps is a little hard to manage in wvw but not hard to kill…
better yet for people, play thief in spvp and save urself the hassle of getting to 80.
everything in this game is l2p. people just need to get better and stop kitten around.

Lokheit.7943:

But to be honest, despite it’s a great thing for those situations… those situations means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING*. 2 roamers fighting each other won’t affect the server results at all. It will affect their personal prides, but that fight won’t mean anything at all.

Roaming is not useless – if you think so, then you are simply comparing one roamer to a large zerg, which is an unfair comparison (1 person, to 30+ people).

Let’s look at what roamers do:

-Kill Dolyaks. A 10 man zerg can kill one dolyak – 10 roamers can kill 10.
-Kill Sentries – same as Dolyaks.
-Cap supply camps – same as the above two points, albeit a bit harder to pull off properly.

-Delay reinforcements to a siege. Let’s say your server has hills, and the enemy server is sieging it. People that die/decided to join the fight will trickle in. As a roamer you can kill these people. Thieves are the best for doing this because long duration stealth lets you ‘reset’ the fight easily when too many people accumulate.

-Following zergs around. Although it seems counterproductive at first, this is actually one of the best things that a roamer can do. Let’s say your server’s population is less than the enemy’s, so most zerg-versus-zerg fights will result in a loss. If your server knows where the zerg is, then such a fight doesn’t have to take place. Alternatively it lets your server know where to defend in advance. Again, Thieves with stealth are the best for this.

-Contest waypoints. It doesn’t take 10 people to contest a waypoint, just one. Guess what, Thieves with stealth+lots of mobility are again the best at doing this.

On a per-person basis, roamers are the most effective players in WvW. It takes more skill than ‘Spam 1 and press F for loot’, but think about this: would you rather make your 20 vs 50 fight into a 21 vs 50 fight, or make sure this fight (a guaranteed loss for your server) never happens?

Everyone has agreed that Thieves are the most effective roamers in WvW by far (see the other thread where everyone agrees you can’t catch a Thief), and since it is a vital part of the game and not some 1v1 ego-boosting contest (as outlined above), it stands to reason that it should be toned down, and/or other classes given the tools to perform as well as Thieves when roaming.

Granted, Thieves could use more area damage (because sometimes I just want to shut my brain off, follow the zerg, and get loot), but that is a different issue.

Edit: I know people like to roam just to have random 1v1s with other people, which leads to claims that ’it’s useless’. Guild vs guild fights also happen (you know, the kind where each side picks 20 people and everyone else watches) and nobody says that zergs are useless, even though such fights contribute absolutely nothing to your PPT either.

Thieves are OP. Thieves are weak.

I wish people would make up their minds!!

For my perspective, I just finding playing my thief to be too squishy in most 1v1s. The only times I do really well in 1v1 is when I’m clearly better skilled. Against other matchups, it’s usually very tight whether I win or lose. And then some….I’m just blown away before I even know what happens.

Some builds seem clearly designed to just keep me perma locked down, and I really don’t carry many of these “stun-breakers”. Not that a stun breaker helps much when stuns keep coming. I also have issues with burst/area damage. Especially against those classes that get a bunch of 1200 meter attacks.

So, I don’t know. Seems like thieves are a great if people don’t know how to deal with stealth. But if they do know how to counter stealth, then it feels like thieves are far too squishy.

@Sunflowers: I can do ANY of those things with any profession (and many can be done waaaaaaaay better with other professions, a Thief has to wait for many cooldowns as he eliminates targets to get a camp and can’t fight all the NPCs at once, others can solo it in one assault). No need to be the best roamer for that.

And delaying siege support? They will generally go in groups (either as a commander call or ressing from dying in the siege), good luck slowing them. And even solo reinforcements can pretty much ignore him. Only some player that died in the siege and feels the urge to prove to his pride he can fight despite his previous death ( or simply feels the urge to kill anyone in opposing servers which means he still needs to know more about how WvW works) will try to do anything about the Thief. Clever players will simply pass and run for their real objective. If the Thief tries to engage them it will be his funeral most times.

About killing a dolyak or sentry… it isn’t like it’s going to slow a zerg if they find a dolyak during their rush. The dolyak will simply explode. Anyone running from one point to another can kill a dolyak or a sentry, you don’t need to be a pro-roamer. A sentry point might slow some on a zerg them (for my experience only 3 or 4 wait for the circle while the zerg continues the rush) but it isn’t like it’s going to change the game.

Best use of its disengaging skill a Thief has may be to camp a dolyak route, but that’s reaaaaaaally boring (most roamers are out there for the thrill of dueling and proving superior skills -questionable superior skills as they play with the free disengage card-, not for looooooooong waits at a camp entrance to ambush a cow every now and then) and unrewarding compared to other stuff, not to mention that as soon as someone notices it he won’t be able to camp it anymore.

Scouting for the server is another thing too thought others can do that too and he would need to be careful not getting too close or a quick rush with loads of CCs comming his way will destroy him (so it’s not like his skill will allow him to fight anyone).

Well I guess at least there is some use for the disengage ability that helps your team instead than just your repair bills, yipeeee!! Well it had to have some pourpose at least!!

But as for killing players which is where most of the cries come from?, only players with lots of pride and hurt feelings (or simply going to WvW when what they want in the inside is going to PvP) will try to actively engage them. If you ignore them you can get faster to your real objetives and get waaaay more rewards than trying to fight him. I’m a Thief and sometimes I go and take a sentry or try to see if I can take a camp by myself, but I find roaming extremely boring, when I want to duel players I go to PvP and I think most players should understand this as there are a huuuuuuuuge loooooot of players that go to WvW to duel other players. WvW is an army game. You might work in smaller squads or even solo for specific objectives, but actively dueling other players isn’t really what WvW is about.

As for the rest of the game, that ability serves for nearly nothing except for minor stuff that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Yes, there are things a single person can do.

Thief isn’t op though. Really it’s UP in PvE and that’s easily half the game. The only thing it’s good at is roaming and I mean, a class has to be good at at least 1 thing….

Lokheit.7943:

@Sunflowers: I can do ANY of those things with any profession (and many can be done waaaaaaaay better with other professions, a Thief has to wait for many cooldowns as he eliminates targets to get a camp and can’t fight all the NPCs at once, others can solo it in one assault). No need to be the best roamer for that.

That’s not the point. I know everyone can kill Dolyaks, cap sentries, and take supply camps. But Thieves can do it risk free.

Every other class will probably die to a zerg, and in a small fight has a good chance of dying/being chased down by the other party.

The un-counterable mechanic of stealth lets Thieves reset the fight over and over, without having to waypoint back every time they can’t kill someone. Nobody else has this choice – they either win, or die. Thieves are exempt from this choice because they either win…or don’t die. Don’t you remember how there were lots of roaming D/D Eles before the RTL nerf? Their super mobility allowed something similar to happen.

As for just ‘running past the Thief’, don’t you remember that this class has the highest mobility in the game? Between all the steals and shadowsteps, there are lots of ways that a Thief can stop people from ‘running past them’.

And to your point about zergs not needing to stop to kill Dolyaks (which is true), it still kills just one dolyak. While a solo Thief may take 10 seconds or so to kill one, with enough Thieves (I think someone put the number at 10 or so) you can shut down all supply lines on a map. Even a 100 person zerg cannot do that.

Sunflowers.1729:

As for just ‘running past the Thief’, don’t you remember that this class has the highest mobility in the game? Between all the steals and shadowsteps, there are lots of ways that a Thief can stop people from ‘running past them’.

Actually not, the disengaging ability comes from being able to shadow return and use some shadowsteps while stealthed and having access to good mobility but far from the best (it’s the best mobility while in combat). There are multiple professions that can outrun a Thief in the open field. The Thief can run from them because running while invisible makes chasers lose track of you. If you both are trying to get to the same point others can do it faster (and if the Thief uses multiple Infiltrator’s Arrow to catch you, he’s out of fighting resources so he’s literally running to his tomb). There is only one trick that can make a super teleport combining different teleports but that blows multiple long cooldown skills and prevents him from running away.

If a Thief is fully speced for mobility then he won’t be much of a thread and you can smack him a bit to convince him to stop chasing you and retreat. He may slow one, but if the other is paying attention he won’t kill him and he won’t be able to stop groups of reinforcements.

Excalibur.9748:

Yes, there are things a single person can do.

Thief isn’t op though. Really it’s UP in PvE and that’s easily half the game. The only thing it’s good at is roaming and I mean, a class has to be good at at least 1 thing….

This. Take away the one thing the thief is good at (which can be done almost as well by other classes like Mesmer) and you have a relatively useless class in all parts of the game. I believe A-net did this intentionally. They realized people who played thieves did so for the WvW and PvP aspects of the game less than the PvE parts, thereby giving thieves a play style more suited to player engagements.

Lokheit.7943:

There are multiple professions that can outrun a Thief in the open field. The Thief can run from them because running while invisible makes chasers lose track of you. If you both are trying to get to the same point others can do it faster (and if the Thief uses multiple Infiltrator’s Arrow to catch you, he’s out of fighting resources so he’s literally running to his tomb). There is only one trick that can make a super teleport combining different teleports but that blows multiple long cooldown skills and prevents him from running away.

I’m not saying that you need to kill all the people who are running to the keep. Obviously there are classes like Warriors who can make a speedy getaway, but there are also lots of other classes who can’t do so.

-Engineers
-Staff Eles (nobody uses D/D in zergs)
-Guardians
-Necros
-Rangers with a bow
-Mesmers (who are actually very slow)

And to the people saying that Thieves are only good in WvW roaming (and terrible everywhere else), even if it is true (which I don’t believe so), it doesn’t mean that it should stay this way. After all, you can warp it around and change the argument to say “Thieves are so good in WvW roaming, they should be terrible everywhere else” so you never get buffs.

Sunflowers.1729:

-Engineers
-Staff Eles (nobody uses D/D in zergs)
-Guardians
-Necros
-Rangers with a bow
-Mesmers (who are actually very slow)

I forgot to post that many of the guys that won’t be able to run would be hard walls anyway.

A properly played engineer is a stone wall for most Thieves, he can just stop and smack him to convince him to retreat. Mesmers actually are great at disengaging because of their combination of stealth and clones, it’s really hard to chase them, I’ve found some really tricky mesmers that were literally impossible to chase. Guardians can keep Swiftness if they want, and most Guardians are hard bones for a Thief. Necros can keep Swiftness too (or nearly keep it) and get multiple snares and a second HP bar.

And while you don’t need to kill everyone, if they see you assaulting one of them, they will smash you (something they can do while running and applying AoE swiftness and CCs) and force your retreat.

Some of those professions might have serious problems with you if they’re running solo, but most of those builds are meant for zerging and you will probably find them running with more people that will force you to retreat.

I don’t think slowing reinforcements is really an option when the oponents know what they’re doing unless they are like “oh look a Thief, lets waste our time fighting here instead of… what were we doing anyway?” which isn’t the clever way to go (but I’ll admit there are many players out there still doing it so in some cases it’s an efficent method, just not when the enemy server knows what to do or their commander is giving clear orders).

Glass thief against glass warrior is pretty hit and miss. If you don’t dodge his cnd / shield block his backstab, you’re in for a world of hurt. At the same time, if you don’t dodge the warriors bullrush/shield stunsmash you’re pretty screwed. Also I find that whirlwind GS can melt a pure glass thief from 100% HP to 0%. It’s pretty funny when I see warriors do that. Glass cannon thief is such a bad build xD

Sunflowers.1729:

And to your point about zergs not needing to stop to kill Dolyaks (which is true), it still kills just one dolyak. While a solo Thief may take 10 seconds or so to kill one, with enough Thieves (I think someone put the number at 10 or so) you can shut down all supply lines on a map. Even a 100 person zerg cannot do that.

True a 100 person zerg couldn’t kill off all supply, but 3 33 person zergs could. They’d also be able to take castles and keeps. At the same time, if any roamer tried to get within range of said zerg, they’d get cc’d and bursted to oblivion. Even thieves die in .002 seconds if a zerg targets them.

I’m not saying that you need to kill all the people who are running to the keep. Obviously there are classes like Warriors who can make a speedy getaway, but there are also lots of other classes who can’t do so.
-Engineers
-Staff Eles (nobody uses D/D in zergs)
-Guardians
-Necros
-Rangers with a bow
-Mesmers (who are actually very slow)

Is this a joke? Here’s how each class makes their very safe and speedy getaways.
Engi has perma swiftness, he uses that in combo with 2 invulnerability phases (one from dropping to 25% hp) and a series of blocks with 2 different shields that are both available on 1 build. They can get around 2000 range without eating any damage.

Staff ele may not be the fastest but they still have access to mist form, blink, and armor of earth. They also have the really good backwards evade (in fire) and the best control abilities in the game for keeping people away from you. Guy is jumping on you? Blow back. Group is chasing? Aoe stun and/or cripple and/or chill. You also have THE best heals in the game to help make getting away even easier.

Guardian is probably the best escape artist in the game next to thief. Gs leap away, sword blink even further away (can target things out of range), have multiple blocks from your focus, swiftness from your utilities, passive blocks, active blocks, block while healing, invulnerability that refreshes more heals and block, and traits that give more blocks while under non-ideal situations. Not to mention crazy good heals as well, 2nd only to ele (debatable).

Necros do kind suck for getting away. They can get away, they’re just built for staying and aoeing down groups of anythings.

Rangers with a bow can have a gs in their swap. 2 skills and they’re gone. If you need to buy some time b/c weapon swap is on cd: troll heal, lightning reflexes, evade or knockback on the bow, massive cc from the pet (use wolf or something with chill), and a larg supply of immobilizes.

Mesmers lay a portal before entering a bad situation, portal out when it gets bad. If that’s not good enough, they invis with a bunch of clones out, blink away, and the crowd chasing will often be too confused to know if the real mesmer ever even left the fight.

Not sure if trolling or just trying to use completely false arguments to try and prove a point. Thief is the best class for escaping but saying it’s the only class that can escape isn’t just a lie but it’s so dumb it causes anyone who reads such lies to get progressively dumber for every word they read.

Kudos to OP.

I am putting this thread in my siggy.

Sunflowers.1729:

And to your point about zergs not needing to stop to kill Dolyaks (which is true), it still kills just one dolyak. While a solo Thief may take 10 seconds or so to kill one, with enough Thieves (I think someone put the number at 10 or so) you can shut down all supply lines on a map. Even a 100 person zerg cannot do that.

Three people can kill all the dolyaks.
One for NE/East side of North, one for NW/West side of North, one for the three South camps. The one playing in the south doesnt have much time to mess around, but it can be done pretty easily if you ignore all the fights.

And grats to the OP for finally getting it. The first thing I did when I really started getting into WvW was die to thieves, so I rolled one to figure out how they work, and now I have no trouble with them. After all, thats what people who care and want to succeed will do, learn about the things you have problems with.

Zacchary.6183:

Kudos to OP.

I am putting this thread in my siggy.

Lol thanks man, Honestly I just posted an opinion and some people who will go unnamed, jump on it like a dog in heat.

why is this not a QQ thread ?!?
us noobs want more thief nerfs

BP is a good warrior and makes a lot of intelligent post. That being said I respectfully disagree.

Bacon Please.8407:

1: Anyone who thinks Stealth is OP is a fool. You can still hit a thief and as most thieves are set up, it is probably going to do significant damage

However vs a smart or experienced thief this is not the case. Honestly when I thief I lock off melee target assist walk through you when I stealth and dodge appropriately. Vs a strong Shadow arts build stealth will let you heal up and vs anyone. Using movement as their advantage the thief wont get hit. I won’t say stealth is OP but it does have its’ moments.

Bacon Please.8407:

2: Thieves are really good at killing players new to pvp and wvw who have no idea about stun breakers and dodging. Anyone with a decent level of experience can see what a thief is doing and can either run/counter.

Sorry but this is incorrect. A perfectly played thief no one and I mean no one can run from forever. Even Sw/GS (I run this in wvw also with bull rush for added mobility) can run for a while but it wouldn’t last long if the thief brought the mobility an experienced thief has. There is no feasible means of escape besides water.

Bacon Please.8407:

3: Some builds you just can’t kill 1v1. Same goes for my warrior. I can run in very quickly . Sword/Shield +Gs and run out popping stunbreakers, endure pain and shield stance and get away with barely a dent in my 32k Health

Agree, but very few can go near GC and do that. 32k hp would make you a bunker and to my knowledge that what bunkers do. They don’t Die in 1v1 and they don’t kill. With the exception of BM ranger and Phant mes. The only classes that could possibly go full or near full glass and not get killed are shatter mesmer and D/P thief (DD to a much lesser extent).

4: A thief that drops you fast, drops even faster. What do most GC thieves have for health? 11k Health? With maybe 2100 armor. Can’t get more glassy.

However if you read these forums for more balanced burst builds the HP you run with is 15k min. If you add in blinds and other tricks given how slippery the class is very few classes including warrior can burst a thief all by themselves. A good thief also keeps his escapes and will use them appropriately making bursting them nigh impossible. S/D burst ele can do it if the get in range so can some engi builds but outside of that not much else.

Bacon Please.8407:

5: Playing a thief really changes your outlook on how they operate. When everyone says Play one to Learn one, They really mean it. When I got to 80 on my thief and spent a hundred or so hours in WvW with it, I was able to get back to my warrior and I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could. It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” What do you know, He missed and i stun locked him with a hammer.

I played thief first so my outlook hasn’t changed at all. When I ran P/D it was called OP a few months later. I was DP 5 months ago before anyone even gave a kitten. S/D 6 months ago before the nerfs and the claims of how OP shadow return is. I have played most builds and the only class I have more hours on is ele. I love thief however, some of what is OP is simply OP. Its not about experience or playing the class. Many of us have 3, 4, 5, 6, 80s and we get it but at the same time its not like we are blind to what is really strong and what isn’t.

BTW not being rude but if you did that I would simply use shadowstep to break the cc hit a target and come back and gib you. If you were by yourself I might eat the cc if I managed to get caught which is unlikely. Earthshaker has a huge telegraph and slow animation. Hammer in general relies on chaos to catch people as an aware target will simply move or dodge. This is a common complaint among hammer warriors as it is. A thief as educed about your build as he is about your simply would not get hit.

Thief is not the strongest class out there in general. Even in Spvp it is somewhat useless. However, when we talk about WvW the story much change. “A Warriors Perspective on Thief” would be a more appropriate title, but you probably got over max character thing.

Brilliant post OP, thanks for breaking things down in a common sense manner.

TheGuy.3568:

BP is a good warrior and makes a lot of intelligent post. That being said I respectfully disagree.

Bacon Please.8407:

1: Anyone who thinks Stealth is OP is a fool. You can still hit a thief and as most thieves are set up, it is probably going to do significant damage

However vs a smart or experienced thief this is not the case. Honestly when I thief I lock off melee target assist walk through you when I stealth and dodge appropriately. Vs a strong Shadow arts build stealth will let you heal up and vs anyone. Using movement as their advantage the thief wont get hit. I won’t say stealth is OP but it does have its’ moments.

Bacon Please.8407:

2: Thieves are really good at killing players new to pvp and wvw who have no idea about stun breakers and dodging. Anyone with a decent level of experience can see what a thief is doing and can either run/counter.

Sorry but this is incorrect. A perfectly played thief no one and I mean no one can run from forever. Even Sw/GS (I run this in wvw also with bull rush for added mobility) can run for a while but it wouldn’t last long if the thief brought the mobility an experienced thief has. There is no feasible means of escape besides water.

Bacon Please.8407:

3: Some builds you just can’t kill 1v1. Same goes for my warrior. I can run in very quickly . Sword/Shield +Gs and run out popping stunbreakers, endure pain and shield stance and get away with barely a dent in my 32k Health

Agree, but very few can go near GC and do that. 32k hp would make you a bunker and to my knowledge that what bunkers do. They don’t Die in 1v1 and they don’t kill. With the exception of BM ranger and Phant mes. The only classes that could possibly go full or near full glass and not get killed are shatter mesmer and D/P thief (DD to a much lesser extent).

4: A thief that drops you fast, drops even faster. What do most GC thieves have for health? 11k Health? With maybe 2100 armor. Can’t get more glassy.

However if you read these forums for more balanced burst builds the HP you run with is 15k min. If you add in blinds and other tricks given how slippery the class is very few classes including warrior can burst a thief all by themselves. A good thief also keeps his escapes and will use them appropriately making bursting them nigh impossible. S/D burst ele can do it if the get in range so can some engi builds but outside of that not much else.

Bacon Please.8407:

5: Playing a thief really changes your outlook on how they operate. When everyone says Play one to Learn one, They really mean it. When I got to 80 on my thief and spent a hundred or so hours in WvW with it, I was able to get back to my warrior and I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could. It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” What do you know, He missed and i stun locked him with a hammer.

I played thief first so my outlook hasn’t changed at all. When I ran P/D it was called OP a few months later. I was DP 5 months ago before anyone even gave a kitten. S/D 6 months ago before the nerfs and the claims of how OP shadow return is. I have played most builds and the only class I have more hours on is ele. I love thief however, some of what is OP is simply OP. Its not about experience or playing the class. Many of us have 3, 4, 5, 6, 80s and we get it but at the same time its not like we are blind to what is really strong and what isn’t.

BTW not being rude but if you did that I would simply use shadowstep to break the cc hit a target and come back and gib you. If you were by yourself I might eat the cc if I managed to get caught which is unlikely. Earthshaker has a huge telegraph and slow animation. Hammer in general relies on chaos to catch people as an aware target will simply move or dodge. This is a common complaint among hammer warriors as it is. A thief as educed about your build as he is about your simply would not get hit.

Thief is not the strongest class out there in general. Even in Spvp it is somewhat useless. However, when we talk about WvW the story much change. “A Warriors Perspective on Thief” would be a more appropriate title, but you probably got over max character thing.

Took it respectfully. The tactics i’ve posted were simply my findings when fighting thieves as a warrior. It’s defenetly not perfect but it beats complaining about it on the forums 100%. I’m not saying thieves aren’t strong in some areas but they aren’t as all mighty as people like to think :P

Bacon Please I salute you sir. Salutes I main thief now and I must say I am glad that you finally rolled a thief and saw exactly how the play was for us. A player that knows his enemies best always wins. It all comes down to how much you know about yourself and the opponent. Whoever knows more will most likely win.

Me being a thief I had to roll each and every profession and every build to know what to dodge and when to burst. (except engi getting there) I encorage all players to play thief in spvp and see really how thieves play and the amount of knowledge it takes to even have a chance.

Reading the posts as follows it all comes down to how much knowledge the thief has. And imo thats the same for every class so to all the complainers, I humbly say just really l2p. Not only your own class but all others as well for the best results. Each profession can do amazing things just have to know how.
Side Note: Warriors have the most mobility if done right even a thief cant catch one.

Wryscher.1432:

Ralathar.7236:

To sum up yes, I’m stalking him.

Thieves never really bothered me much. Sure they kill me, all the time actually,, but not really ever when I’m doing anything. Maybe strolling across a field, running down a road or just goofing around. I can’t remember the last time I was I any sort of important battle with more then 3 people and was like oh wow that stealth thief on their side is an unstoppable beast!

And really from my experience with stealth classes people have problems with them because they don’t think like them. They are just busy running down the middle of roads and assuming if you can no longer see it, it must not be there.

1st of all there is a forum tool under a posters name that lets you peruse their prior posts. Upon getting an inkling something was up I confirmed the continuity I remembered via this tool. If you dig far enough back you’ll even find a thread where I suggest thieves get the traps line buffed as they are not competitive.

Keeping people from getting to the big fights is a big advantage. Being able to be highly mobile and down people in a fight with smart target selection allows you to place your force in a very effective manner if you play right.

Thieves don’t appear to be a big force in large fight because most thieves suck and the good ones don’t really give you much to see. In battles more than 3 people the thief just blends in more and more with their incredible battle mobility unless doing extremely basic, and thus less effective, tactics.