This is non-negotiable, we absolutely need a UI button to swap Daredevil Dodges. This can either be f3-f5 each picking one, or a single button that rotates between them, and they can put a cooldown on swapping or whatever they feel is necessary, but a button IS necessary.
I love Lotus, when I’m in combat, but I absolutely HATE how if I’m just roaming around and dodge, I suddenly agro everything around me. It’s not practical. I also would love to use Dash while roaming around, but it’s not the best for me in combat, so I need the ability to switch between them on the fly, even if this is restricted to out of combat only it would be an improvement.
As they stand, the dodges are more annoying to manage than they are a positive, we need confirmation that they are at least working on this, but so far they’ve remained complete silent.
Yup. 100% agree. Post it in the main feedback thread please. Anyway this is not going to happen until HoT, only minor tweaks will be done.
This is non-negotiable, we absolutely need a UI button to swap Daredevil Dodges. This can either be f3-f5 each picking one, or a single button that rotates between them, and they can put a cooldown on swapping or whatever they feel is necessary, but a button IS necessary.
I love Lotus, when I’m in combat, but I absolutely HATE how if I’m just roaming around and dodge, I suddenly agro everything around me. It’s not practical. I also would love to use Dash while roaming around, but it’s not the best for me in combat, so I need the ability to switch between them on the fly, even if this is restricted to out of combat only it would be an improvement.
As they stand, the dodges are more annoying to manage than they are a positive, we need confirmation that they are at least working on this, but so far they’ve remained complete silent.
This is a great idea. So far I’ve only thought about some sort of toggle/selector in order to give DD room for more trait options. But to easily allow out-of-combat (or in-combat with a cooldown) would be amazing.
This is non-negotiable, we absolutely need a UI button to swap Daredevil Dodges. This can either be f3-f5 each picking one, or a single button that rotates between them, and they can put a cooldown on swapping or whatever they feel is necessary, but a button IS necessary.
I love Lotus, when I’m in combat, but I absolutely HATE how if I’m just roaming around and dodge, I suddenly agro everything around me. It’s not practical. I also would love to use Dash while roaming around, but it’s not the best for me in combat, so I need the ability to switch between them on the fly, even if this is restricted to out of combat only it would be an improvement.
As they stand, the dodges are more annoying to manage than they are a positive, we need confirmation that they are at least working on this, but so far they’ve remained complete silent.
Yes, yes, yes! BArring them behind GM traits was a very stupid move >.<
this will require them to rework on new GM traits. which may take another decade.
this will require them to rework on new GM traits. which may take another decade.
The “should they be GM traits” thing is an important issue, and I agree that they should not be, but this is something else entirely. Even if they do decide they must keep them as GM traits, they should also include the toggle button, which in that case would just swap what you Daredevil GM trait is.
If left in its current form, then the Thief is one of the few classes where I actually seriously consider not upgrading, even though I have plenty of points to fully unlock it at launch. It has some advantages, but not enough, and in some ways is actually more of a hassle than just staying vanilla.
They can keep these traits as GM traits. I think they are GM traits plus if we get some slight tweaks on Bounding dodger and Impaling lotus.
Unhindered combat is a GM + trait.
Just allow us to select them with a toggle .
I hope this can be realized too, but I could also understand if there was a lack of development time.
I havent found it to be an issue yet. I’m running a D/D, condition Daredevil. However, I am using Withdraw and Roll for Initiative as my dodges while in stealth.
I havent found it to be an issue yet. I’m running a D/D, condition Daredevil. However, I am using Withdraw and Roll for Initiative as my dodges while in stealth.
This BWE pve isnt a good benchmark for condi DD’s viability since they apparently nerfed it down to roaming SW levels. But how have you fared so far?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dual-Dagger-Condition-Daredevil-Build
Fairly good. Haven’t lost a 1v1 so far and I have even won several 2v1’s. One was against an Engineer and Revenant which are a pain for Thief to fight, normally.
Allowing thief to switch gm traits on the fly would be so over the top. Just give an F3 that allows us to switch between normal dodge and traited dodge is enough.
They can keep these traits as GM traits. I think they are GM traits plus if we get some slight tweaks on Bounding dodger and Impaling lotus.
true, the dodges are worthy of being GM traits.
but the extra 50 max endurance is not worthy of being our new class mechanic.
it’s not so much that the dodges don’t belong in the traits, as something else belongs on the mechanic, and the dodges are the most fitting thing there.
I love Lotus, when I’m in combat, but I absolutely HATE how if I’m just roaming around and dodge, I suddenly agro everything around me. It’s not practical.
I’ve had the same problem and I agree it NEEDS a fix. But, there are other ways to fix it then requesting they create a new mechanic and a new set of Grandmaster traits.
For instance, the attacks (thrown daggers or damage from the leap) could only trigger if you are already in combat.
In fact, for a bit of a buff, the dodges could have a different effect out of combat.
Unhindered Combat
Lotus Training
Bounding Dodger
I just tossed this together in a couple of minutes as a proof of concept so I didn’t test the theory. It’s just to show that there may be other ways than a “Dodge toggle”; not that such “stances” wouldn’t be cool, there is just only so much time until release to make it happen.
For instance, the attacks (thrown daggers or damage from the leap) could only trigger if you are already in combat.
That would be an improvement, and I think it might even have worked this way in BWE2, but it would not be enough. The problem is, you can get “in combat” from enemies shooting you, or even just dropping off a ledge, and if your goal is to not get into combat, throwing daggers around every time you dodge is not going to help.
The only way “only in combat” would be good enough is if that only applies when YOU start combat, as in when you hit an enemy with an attack. That would make for a huge QoL benefit though, as you could also use Caltrops without similar issues.
That aside, I don’t think they would offer significant benefits as you describe there. The best I would hope for is that ALL dodges would apply swiftness while out of combat, making them good for getting around without having to switch to Dash.
Also, I suspect that either of your suggestions would take more time to implement than a dodge toggle button, but I have no idea how they’ve routed things. Ideally, just adding a button that swaps traits around should not be a huge deal.
This change would make it truely feel like a new elite spec mechanic.
Yes, but we haven’t heard anything from Karl that they are even considering this toggle.
We really need this imo, add 3 worthwile new master traits and put dodges on F3 as the new mechanic. make it so there is a little arrow that opens selection boxes just like with the revenant legends.
make it happen Karl!
(edited by GragorR.9768)
Again while I think a toggle warranted, I think what we have as dodge traits now in that spec can qualify as GM traits. As they exist now and especially Unhindered Combat they are GM+.
If they put the dodges as they exist today on a toggle and than add more GM traits they will have to weaken one or the other as the spec in comparative terms will be too much.
THAT said it also my opinion that all of these specs in comparitive terms across all the classes tend to be more powerful then exisiting specs. This might be a first glance thing and it might be they appear more powerful because they are new but it does throw a crimp in the plans to create a wider build variety.
Also, I suspect that either of your suggestions would take more time to implement than a dodge toggle button, but I have no idea how they’ve routed things. Ideally, just adding a button that swaps traits around should not be a huge deal.
I work in development – although not game development – and I can say that any change to the UI usually is harder to implement than just changing the values on an existing function.
However, I can’t pretend to know what tools they have on hand or if it may take longer to test the skill balance than just allow a fast change option. So we will see what they can do. Maybe they could recycle the Revenant stance mechanic? We could have our 3 dodge types but only have 2 “equipped” and the Grandmaster traits would add effects to one of the 3 dodges?
As I said: I’m not against a “dodge toggle” or a more fleshed out specialization mechanic. I’m just trying to see how we can meet halfway IF it isn’t possible to implement before release.
One thing to note is if someone doesn’t have 60~ Hero Points right off the bat~ like a newer player and unlocks the first Daredevil minor they aren’t really going to feel like they have much of a new mechanic till they reach Grandmaster traits. This makes Thief the only class to only receive half of their Elite Spec from their first minor instead of the whole thing.
Again while I think a toggle warranted, I think what we have as dodge traits now in that spec can qualify as GM traits. As they exist now and especially Unhindered Combat they are GM+.
If they put the dodges as they exist today on a toggle and than add more GM traits they will have to weaken one or the other as the spec in comparative terms will be too much.
THAT said it also my opinion that all of these specs in comparitive terms across all the classes tend to be more powerful then exisiting specs. This might be a first glance thing and it might be they appear more powerful because they are new but it does throw a crimp in the plans to create a wider build variety.
No…just no.. Were the only elite spec that doesnt receive our unique ability till we’ve fully invested in the tree, thats a big NO NO in my book. No, they don’t have to weaken anything, acro line is already useless and the other ones are in a state of disarray with Trickery being 100% required.
Again while I think a toggle warranted, I think what we have as dodge traits now in that spec can qualify as GM traits. As they exist now and especially Unhindered Combat they are GM+.
If they put the dodges as they exist today on a toggle and than add more GM traits they will have to weaken one or the other as the spec in comparative terms will be too much.
THAT said it also my opinion that all of these specs in comparitive terms across all the classes tend to be more powerful then exisiting specs. This might be a first glance thing and it might be they appear more powerful because they are new but it does throw a crimp in the plans to create a wider build variety.
Basically this. Aside form lotus being bugged, as by default it shouldn’t be attacking when not in combat, the elite spec is being balanced under its current mechanical assumptions. Everything on the DD is already solid, and I have the numbers to back that assertion up. If we were to just give more to the spec, then it is highly likely that DD will receive nerfs to bring it in line with other e-specs and other thief spec lines.
What the “reasonable people” (ill defined term as it is) people are asking for is souped up version of evasive arcana to be made baseline, along with 3 new grandmaster worthy traits to choose from. There are a couple of ways this can be done:
#1: Dodges can’t be changed within combat This is the best way to go about it, since it is functionally identical to our current grandmasters… bar two notes. Last I had checked, utilities and builds were locked in PVP tournaments. To be “fair” the dodges would also have to be locked, otherwise from engagement to engagement the daredevil would just counter-rotate their dodge to beat whatever class they are going to engage, or whatever comp the enemies are using. Second, with 3 new grandmasters to choose from the class will get even more versatility and unpredictability. Should the devs feel that this is too much, we’ll be hit with a nerf.
#2: Dodges can be changed within combat, but there is a cooldown between swaps. This has all of the problems of #1, but none of the solutions. A DD will still have immediate access to every dodge as it is demanded. The only difference is that, should the “demand” change fast enough, the DD might not have the ability to revert access. From the practical standpoint, any build is going to alternate between two dodges and will just sit on top of its primary dodge until the other one is desired, so barring the more extenuating circumstances there won’t be a situation where the DD is without the tool they need to use. Add on 3 extra grandmasters, and the spec will receive nerfs.
I’ve already heard other ideas. Personally I like the idea of making Escapists Absolution a minor, either merging it with Driven Fortitude or swapping the traits and buffing Driven Fortitude. I like this one, because it opens up the master tier to two traits that, while significant in power, will never be taken over the 10/10 Escapists Absolution.
Another idea I like is reducing trait-specific endurance generation and giving the DD a 50% baseline increase in endurance regen and maximum endurance. Basically perma vigor. A minor issue with the Daredevil is that all of the endurance regeneration, while already theoretically massive, is wired into Brawler’s Tenacity (particularly with Channeled Vigor), Staff Mastery, and Endurance Thief. To get the most out of the dodges, you have to be using particular physical skills with their trats, a particular weapon with its trait, and steal boosting traits. But with the soft perma-vigor change, you can open up the endurance gaining traits to do new things, increasing the power of every potential DD build. This idea is harder, though, since it requires more creativity on the part of the devs, and the players will hate it if they don’t like what is put in.
Maybe I would be more enthusiastic about the dodge toggle if there were good suggestions for the grandmasters that were opened up.
(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)
This is non-negotiable…
You’re right. There will be no negotiations.
Because its not happening.
By the six, people we’re EIGHTEEN DAYS FROM LAUNCH. Thief is NOT going to be the only class that gets a new and untested UI to swap Grandmaster traits just because their three traits are similar. There isn’t a class in the game that couldn’t capitalize on exactly that kind of functionality and Daredevil is no special snowflake in that regard. Open your build panel. Click on the other trait. Boom, traits swapped. LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS.
I’d say save the ultimatums for something that can actually be done, but at this point, maybe just save the ultimatums period.
#1: Dodges can’t be changed within combat This is the best way to go about it, since it is functionally identical to our current grandmasters… bar two notes. Last I had checked, utilities and builds were locked in PVP tournaments. To be “fair” the dodges would also have to be locked, otherwise from engagement to engagement the daredevil would just counter-rotate their dodge to beat whatever class they are going to engage, or whatever comp the enemies are using. Second, with 3 new grandmasters to choose from the class will get even more versatility and unpredictability. Should the devs feel that this is too much, we’ll be hit with a nerf.
Is there really much “counter play” to the new dodges? I can’t think of how I would size up an opponent and decide to use one or the other in retaliation. To my mind, Lotus and Bound are much more dependent on your own build type, condi/power, and available field types. Dash is much less useful in combat, except certain ranged builds, but more useful for getting to and from combat.
I suppose if necessary they could prevent you swapping them out during PvP matches, but I really don’t see the need.
#2: Dodges can be changed within combat, but there is a cooldown between swaps. This has all of the problems of #1, but none of the solutions. A DD will still have immediate access to every dodge as it is demanded. The only difference is that, should the “demand” change fast enough, the DD might not have the ability to revert access.
Well, this would definitely offer more possibilities than #1. This would mean that you could enter a fight with Lotus, but if it’s starting to get bad, you could switch to Dash and get away easier. Or you could start a fight in Dash because you wanted to get there fast, but you got ambushed before you could swap to Lotus/Bound, and this would allow you to shift to a more combat-useful dodge. Much more versatile than 1, and again, I don’t think it causes the class to be unbalanced any more than a Ranger can swap between two pets, but if you see it as a problem, then 1 would have less of a problem.
I’ve already heard other ideas. Personally I like the idea of making Escapists Absolution a minor, either merging it with Driven Fortitude or swapping the traits and buffing Driven Fortitude. I like this one, because it opens up the master tier to two traits that, while significant in power, will never be taken over the 10/10 Escapists Absolution.
Nobody cares about Escapist’s Absolution, this is about the dodge toggles. What they do or don’t do with Escapist’s Absolution has no impact on this discussion.
Another idea I like is reducing trait-specific endurance generation and giving the DD a 50% baseline increase in endurance regen and maximum endurance. Basically perma vigor.
No. If the DD is going to get more endurance generation, he should get it from the right place, Feline Grace, in Acrobatics. No way do they get away with stealing Feline Grace from Acro, just to hand it to Daredevil.
By the six, people we’re EIGHTEEN DAYS FROM LAUNCH. Thief is NOT going to be the only class that gets a new and untested UI to swap Grandmaster traits just because their three traits are similar.
If it’s getting a little late to discuss it now, then that’s their problem because this is something they should have thought about a looooong time ago. Hell, they’ve had three years to work on new classes, they should not be in developing them in panic mod weeks before launch. I have zero patience for trying to defend the existing state of things. If you like them, then fine, that’s your position, but there is plenty of reason for others to expect better, and respect their right to that opinion as well.
There’s a crap ton of counter-play in the dodges. Think of it logically: AoE damage + leap finisher, large AoE bleed/torment/cripple + whirl finisher, and high speed + swiftness + disabling condi cleanse are not equally applicable to every build of all classes in every composition of either team.
If it’s getting a little late to discuss it now, then that’s their problem because this is something they should have thought about a looooong time ago. Hell, they’ve had three years to work on new classes, they should not be in developing them in panic mod weeks before launch. I have zero patience for trying to defend the existing state of things. If you like them, then fine, that’s your position, but there is plenty of reason for others to expect better, and respect their right to that opinion as well.
That pre-supposes they agree that they’re doing it wrong in the first place. No developer pushed a spec through to the coders thinking it sucked. The fact that the Daredevil has three Grandmaster traits that all key off of swapping dodges for super dodges doesn’t make it the Daredevils’ class mechanic. They’re just the GM traits and for once they actually have some elegant symmetry. This is classic “give a mouse a cookie and he’ll ask for a glass of milk” behavior from players claiming anything otherwise. ‘Are they good enough to be GM traits?’ has been in dispute and you’ll notice there’s been action on that front. But if there were any plausible chance they were going to become some kind — any kind — of toggle they wouldn’t be getting stronger, they’d be getting weaker as iteration continues.
The real question isn’t any of our preferences playing armchair game designer, but how the spec is actually performing in-game. If the Daredevil is underperforming it’ll get some nudges upwards, but even that is hard to prove without tools & data that they will never share with us. But nudges aren’t total overhaul of the design, and that’s where most of this fantasizing keeps leading.
That pre-supposes they agree that they’re doing it wrong in the first place.
It presupposes nothing. If they agree that they’re doing it wrong, then they’re right. If they don’t agree that they’re doing it wrong, then they’re doubly wrong. They are doing it wrong and that’s all that matters. Again, if they didn’t realize that months ago then that’s their problem, and it shouldn’t be ours.
ANet takes a policy that they don’t talk about things until they are pretty much nailed down, which means that the first we hear of the Daredevil was a little over a month ago. That was their choice, but it also meant that we couldn’t comment on their design until less than two months from launch. That means any major concerns we had would need to be corrected in under two months, and that’s a limitation they chose to place upon themselves, and it’s their responsibility to meet it.
The fact that the Daredevil has three Grandmaster traits that all key off of swapping dodges for super dodges doesn’t make it the Daredevils’ class mechanic.
Then what is the DD’s class mechanic? That is has three dodge bars? That is WORTHLESS, and is actually LESS than what the class had by default six months ago. How would other classes feel if their “unique mechanic” were that the Reaper would be able to shift into standard Death Shroud (vanilla Necros no longer could), the Berserker would be able to use Burst attacks, but vanilla Warriors would no longer be able to use Burst moves, and Tempests would be able to freely swap between attunements but vanilla Eles would be put on 20 secodn CDs on all attunement swaps?
They can’t imagine that we would have been satisfied with them gutting one of our core trait lines, and then giving some of those steaming entrails back to us as the core of the elite spec.
The real question isn’t any of our preferences playing armchair game designer, but how the spec is actually performing in-game. If the Daredevil is underperforming it’ll get some nudges upwards, but even that is hard to prove without tools & data that they will never share with us. But nudges aren’t total overhaul of the design, and that’s where most of this fantasizing keeps leading.
For what it’s worth, Thieves seem to be entirely absent from raid runs.
But nudges aren’t total overhaul of the design, and that’s where most of this fantasizing keeps leading.
When it’s necessary, it’s necessary. Little nudges aren’t going to help here, so it’s pointless suggesting it. They’ll either make the changes that are needed, or they won’t.
100% agree. dodge toggle + 3 new grandmaster traits. if not, i just want the explanation why thief gets the only elite spec with the mechanics in the grandmaster trait.
you just cant say that the mechanic is only the third dodge. its just not true. the mechanic is, that you can modify your dodge and have one more. period.
We have been submitting this as feedback since BWE1. We are the only elite spec in the game that doesn’t get actual grandmaster traits for our espec.
We are also the only class in the game that doesn’t get anything new for our espec profession mechanic – just a slightly redesigned acrobatics tree which left the existing acrobatics tree gutted and awful.
As a result – daredevil is by far the worst and most boring espec being delivered in HoT. We have given this feedback over and over and over against, it’s just been completely ignored.
Our survivability is trash, our group support is garbage, our single target damage and burst and self utility (backstab, assassin signet, s/d etc etc etc) has been repeatedly nerfed since launch and DD literally does nothing to address any of those issues. It’s atrocious.
Zerker meta is dead? Obviously not. 9/10 DPS geared players dropped raid boss in 5 hours of trying. The thief class is dead. Good job.
(edited by wolfpaq.7354)
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